I am wondering about what you write, that achdus comes from accepting people despite their differences. Surely that is very limited, as we don't accept Reform, Conservative, secular, secularist modox that are not too different than these- meaning we don't want *religious* achdus with them. But we can share national achdus, as long as they are ok with us not sharing religious achdus. The problem is that they are not ok with it. They resent it greatly that we don't accept their religious positions.
There is another problem with the letter from Ms. Elitzur. She is a campaigner, and most recently she spoke publicly as part of the secular protests against judicial reform. There is zero chance that many mothers of Haredi boys will try to insure that their sons leave Yeshiva to enlist in the army, and the few that might indeed have such a conversation will certainly be unable to convince their sons to rebel against their own friends and rebbeim. Ms. Elitzur is not stupid, and knows this, so the letter is obviously not actually designed for Haredi mothers as she claims, but just another part of the sophisticated publicity stunts that the left-wing protest leaders have adopted. Too bad Slifkin plays along.
Plays along? It's a gigantic circle jerk. He cites her authoritatively, as if she should matter to anyone, let alone Charedim. She cites him, or people connected to him.
Beside for what JaN writes- she is free to speak out her emotions, but it's fundamentally dishonest to present this as some sort of attempt to convince chareidi mothers. It reeks of cynicism or at least total cluelessness. A real attempt would involve somebody they could at least possibly respect- not a feminist, leftist campaigner.
Because the letter is not really about her emotions. It is playing upon the emotions of people in order to promote an agenda that threatens to harm the Yeshivos.
A person who 'feels' a certain way doesn't write open letters in the secular press far removed from the supposed recipient. She lives in Yerushalayim, works right near Bnei Brak, and if she truly wanted to speak with Haredim and their rabbanim, it wouldn't be too hard for her to arrange. Popular practice is to lay claim to sympathy by expressing one's emotions (for millions to read). This is cynicsm at its best.
The rabanim/ askanim wouldnt listen to her. No chareidi press would publish her letter. It would be impossible for her to convince them that way (i agree that this way also wont work but here she has more of a chance of reaching ppl on the fence).
RZ Left-wingers agree with her agenda to begin with, חרדים disagree with her to begin with and she doesn't offer any reason to change that, חרדל"ים know that you can't trust anything that left-wingers write, die-hard חילונים hate חרדים anyway, and מסורתיים don't fall for this type of person.
I believe that these public campaigns to impugn the Yeshiva bachurim are indeed damaging. Rather than focusing on the midas hadin and the dreadful tragedies that the country is enduring, they serve to divert attention instead towards the Yeshiva Bachurim, and especially their rebbeim, who are portrayed as enemies of the people. This is what Slifkin has been trying to do for 20 years.
The Gush is the left-wing part of the RZ community, and she belongs to "בית הלל" (as they call themselves), with is the left-wing of the Gush. So it is the far-left, compared to the wider RZ community.
Hey Avraham, what do you think about this idea that commenter "Yehoshua" suggested, that perplexingly I have almost never seen suggested anywhere else. The idea is that people learn in yeshiva for about ten years, and when they are anyways leaving yeshiva to get parnassa, they join the army. It would be in a kosher hesder type, completely separate environment.
This would satisfy the Gedolim who don't want them to leave yeshiva (as we are dealing with people who are already leaving anyways). It would satisfy those who say it's not a kosher environment (make is a kosher, completely separate environment). It would satisfy those who want שוויון בנטל and chareidim to die (theoretically, it wouldn't satisfy those like Natan who want to secularize chareidi society). This wouldn't work for chassidim who seem to have more fundamental deep rooted opposition to the Zionist state, but I think it could work for the Litvishe world.
Sounds like hesder merkaz. They get a minimum training (9 months) so they can be called in for מילואים. Thats what they do in merkaz harav and har hamor.
Re chasidim they arent all so anti-zionist compared to litvaks. Peleg is more anti zionist compared to Belz or sanz.
I think most people raised in a serious Torah environment are. At least in the American yeshivish community, most people go to work between 28-30. But there are definitely more options for boys who don't want to go to kollel for that long
Maybe. I guesss if you dont do college it makes sense. I dont think thats so true outside lakewood. In Queens i think the average age guys leave yeshiva is 23-25.
This is my FAVORITE blog! Such knowledgeable, intellectual blog hosts and commenters. And then you also have this test fellow for comic relief. He's Pulitzer material!
Being cannon fodder? The purpose of sacrificing? For the Bagatz,inner apparatus,& coterie, to continue driving the jewish people off another global cliff? & then what?! Nihilism! The definition of....
Why do you think I was talking about you? I was referring to people who used the war almost exclusively as an opportunity to stoke anger and hatred against their fellow Jews, to increase Sinas Chinam as much as possible. Wouldn't you agree such a person can be figuratively called a friend of Hamas?
No. It's every single small phrase should matter in learning. It's precisely because of the mehalech you flag, ignoring small phrases, writing them off as 'lav davka', when they can't be explained, or is not compatible with the sevoroh one chavrusoh is yelling at the other, that accounts for the sorry state of learning today.
The gedolei rosh yeshivos do not ignore 'small phrases'.
Hey Natan, I adjusted my filter to lock me out of RJ for the time being. I was getting too busy with it. I'm sure you'll be missing me. So long for now! 😘😘
Lol, excellent question! The way my filter works is that things that it finds offensive based on the algorithm (both text and images) are blocked automatically. After that, there are a whole bunch of categories that the account admin can block or unblock with the password. Only my wife has the password and not me. I had her block it.
You are a lousy rhetorician. Or, alternatively, you are a rhetorical retard. Read the following and maybe you'll learn a thing or two and have your eyes opened.
To the extent you embrace ideas contra our mesorah, rhetorically, you are a friend of Hamas, regardless of the lack of factual content in the phrase as it applies to you, or the intended audience.
It must bother you because you consider yourself in that group.
As per Rabbenu Yonah, you are a hater of Hashem. You used to brush such off. How do you feel about the label now?
I have 0 respect for Yair Lapid or his voters. I have less than 0 respect for a woman who tries to bring feminism into Judaism. The only acceptable approach to feminism is strict, 100%, 0 tolerance. There is no conversation to be had with a woman, Jewish or not, frum or not, who holds feminist beliefs; just immediately (and politely) end any and all contact with her... on any subject... ever.
"Only when we make the decision to improve our Bein Adam Lachaveiro and to really attempt to connect to all of Klal Yisroel"
The number one reason that RZ society is a total mess in comparison to Haredi society is because the RZ's insist on attempting to connect to all of Klal Yisroel. Attempting to connect to Klal Yisroel is how you get Gush Katif.
One does not connect with people who vote for Yair Lapid. On the contrary, one should do everything possible to separate from them. I get that they are still Jews, we still have to pray for them, we still have to help them when they are in need and we ~definitely~ don't want to see them kidnapped, tortured and slaughtered by our genuinely satanic neo Canaanite enemies; but it is a mistake to go beyond that. These are bad people, they are a toxic influence, they have already brought unspeakable tragedies on us all and we have absolutely nothing to learn from them.
"True Achdus is accepting others despite their differences..."
I cannot accept Yair Lapid and his voters. I don't want to and I don't believe that I am supposed to. I certainly can't accept any feminists. I'm willing to leave such people alone to stew in their own misery, but I also know these types very well and how there is no live and let live with them: they will always come after us. It's who they are. It's what they do.
"...and appreciating the contributions each of us gives, not seeking the differences and sowing discord"
Yair Lapid, "frum" feminists, et al. contribute literally nothing positive to the Jewish people. I always hear this, "everyone has something to contribute" line and I don't buy it at all.
"What a shame!"
Is it though? In the immediate aftermath of Oct 7th it was necessary for us to temporarily put aside our differences but we all knew that that state of affairs could never have lasted, nor should it have. There are very serious issues between us that are not going away. Ultimately, the fissures currently afflicting the Jewish people will not be resolved by dialogue, but rather by one side defeating the other side and forcing its worldview upon them.
It's better for all this stuff to be out in the open
But anyway, I was writing regarding the views of others who learn Torah to find the truth. Even if we disagree with their outcomes, we do not discount them or their sincerity.
I respect the views of those who think that we should all join the IDF, even as I disagree with it.
I am upset, but not surprised, that she does not respect the views of those who disagree with her. I am demanding a feeling of achdus that allows us to respect each other past our differences. Preceding achdus with the others accepting our views is not achdus, it is communism.
When it is obvious that their desire to draft us is a desire to change us, I don't respect them. Yair Lapid is not worthy of respect. But I do think we owe an answer to the sincere ones out there, and we certainly cannot discount them or our debt of gratitude to what they do.
I don't wish to reveal my identity here, but much of what I write is verbatim from my Rebbeim, who are as Charedi as it gets. Prefer no Limudei Chol in Chadarim CHaredi.
Do you mean you respect those who say that all Jews should voluntarily enlist (I also respect that position) or are you saying that you respect the views of those who say that frum Jews who don't want to join should be coerced into joining? The latter position deserves 0 respect
We are, first and foremost, Bnei Bris. Someone who rejects that Bris, has rejected Judaism. Even if they build the land, found kibutzim, and fight wars. Those are secondary to the Bris we have with Hashem.
Have you ever thought deeply why Hashem allowed secularists to 'rebuild' the land and allows those secularists to faciliate, build the infrastructure to support etc etc the massive amounts of torah learning that now takes place in EY?
Because even if you haven't (I know, thinking deeply is challenging, unless its about a generally irrelavant arcane topic like nisroknoh of a naroh hameureses, which has no practical ramifications for you whatever the conclusion) other talmidei chachomim have (even of the charedi sort) and have reached some intereting conclusions.
Or do you follow the Satmar shittoh that its all a maseh soton?
Leave Hashem's cheshbonos to Him, we only have to keep the Torah. Nothing else. Hashem works in mysterious ways, we don't have to involve ourselves in His plans.
He wants us occupying ourselves with נתרוקנה and מפגלין בחצי מתיר, not His plans for the world.
That's not the mesorah. Hashem wants us to try as much as possible to understand his ways and why He does things. Go ask the Ramchal. We are supposed to learn lessons from things, don't you know? Not just write them off as 'leave Hashem's cheshbonos to Him'. If He chose to build the state, and indirectly through all that torah learning, through resho'im, there must be a lesson to us. Some meaning. Something.
"Leave Hashem's cheshbonos' to him is a convenient charedi cop-out, used when convenient, to avoid difficult issues like Meron (and, as you have just done, the state of Israel), and considered heresy when used in other situations. Chareidi stalwards like Reb Avigdor Miller do not use 'leave Hashem's cheshbonos to him' when blaming the holocaust on all sorts of things.
We still appreciate the good they do. Were not מקפיד about how Hashem runs the world. If he brings the קיבוץ גלויות in their merit, we should pay attention. We obviously need to help them though as we still have a long way to go.
Hashem did not bring kibutz galiyos in the merit of people whose actions are everything the Torah warns about ולא תקיא הארץ אתכם. If what we are seeing over the last 75 years is the beginning of kibutz galiyos, then it is despite the actions of such people, ch"v not because of them.
"Btw if you cant read the hebrew it just proves how removed you are from כלל ישראל."
I don't know what that means but I'm assuming it means Klal Yisroel. To tell you the truth, I'm much more connected to Klal Yisroel then I myself realized, hence my intense distress over Oct 7th. I didn't even cry when my father died but I broke down over Oct 7th. It took me months to feel normal again.
But that doesn't mean I ignore reality either.
I'm extremely removed from Israeli Chilonim, that is true. That is something that I am very proud of. They are scoundrels and when they are back in Europe and the Arab countries, the Jewish people will be much better off.
"Youd rather us stay in חוץ לארץ!"
I'm assuming this means galut, in which case my response is an unequivocal "yes". The Jewish people would be in much better shape if the Zionist state had never been founded. I don't even see how that is debatable.
"You dont pray for a שיבה לציון!?"
I don't pray, period. I don't know how to pray.
I'm assuming you wrote Redemption. To me, that's now on autopilot. I think we are basically at the end and very soon the Jewish people will be redeemed and will have full sovereignty over all of our land, and that the Palestinians and their backers will be brought to justice for all their crimes against us. None of that means that I have to support the Zionist entity. In fact, if the Redemption is only a few years away regardless, Zionism is basically irrelevant.
Why would you want jews to leave israel? Do you know any torah sources on the importance of the land? How can you call all secular jews in israel scoundrels? Have you met any? Who are you to judge so many jews? Youve even said that youve never been to israel!
If you dont pray this would explain a lot. Our prayers are in plural- we connect to Hashem as a nation. We yearn every day to return to israel. Even if we dont yet have a torah state, youre delusional for not realizing where Hashem brought us. Look at how many jews in America assimilated! Look what happened to europe!
What makes you think the redemtion is a few years a way?
"Do you know any torah sources on the importance of the land?"
Do you know any Torah sources on the danger to the Jewish people that comes from Jews holding LGBT pride rallies in our land?
"Who are you to judge so many jews?"
Who were they to expel thousands of my brothers from Gush Katif?
"How can you call all secular jews in israel scoundrels? Have you met any? "
Sadly, yes. Many. I live in America and I used to live in Toronto. Israeli Chilonim are all over the place here. Hopefully America will tighten it's immigration laws so they just go to Europe instead from now on.
"Look at how many jews in America assimilated!"
That is a good thing! I was so happy when my brother and sister married gentiles. There are certain people who the Jewish people are better off without. If Tommy Lapid had never made made aliyah, Yair would have been born in Miami and would have married a gentile woman instead of remaining attached to us like the toxic leach that he is.
"We yearn every day to return to israel"
We don't, or at least shouldn't, want Jews who are going to worship Buddha statues and march in Gay Pride parades living in Eretz Yisrael. Religious Jews were making aliyah for over 1000 years before the Zionists showed up in the 1870s and declared that they owned the place. We do not need Zionism to live in our land.
"Look what happened to europe!"
1. A Zionist state would not have prevented the Holocaust
2. By antagonizing the Arabs, the Zionists created a situation where fewer Jews were able to immigrate to the Land of Israel in the decades proceeding the Holocaust. Tens, if not hundreds of thousands of more Jews would have been saved if not for Zionism.
"What makes you think the redemtion is a few years a way?"
Something like Oct 7th is clearly a divine decree. Even the IDF isn't ~that~ incompetent. The US is about to lose in Ukraine and will shortly thereafter lose Taiwan to China. The Russians are already in Syria and they probably helped plan and carry out Oct 7th. They are coming for us and it won't be long now. That's when we'll be redeemed.
Israel was not "mostly founded by מפאי and the kibutzim". They couldn't have done anything without the עליות והתיישבות before them, who were mostly religious. Even after the עליה השניה which was mostly secular, they couldn't have survived, let alone succeed without הציונות הדתית and the non-labor ציונות חילונית
A. Neither did almost anyone, until very late. The only ones who supported complete indepedence from the beginning were לח"י (who indeed were a very small minority) and מרן הרב זצ"ל (who was an even smaller minority).
B. ה' gave us independence because it's part of הנהגת הייחוד, not because of our merits or our חשבונות.
C. Without the prior religious עליות there would be nothing here to work with.
D. מזרחי was much stronger than what מפא"י's propaganda claims. So were the חברה האזרחית and the רביזיונסטים.
How do you know? They would say the could have done more without those religious holding them back. Like Satmar say moshiach would be here by now without the state. Anybody can say anything, unless you have historical evidence to support your view.
Are you are historian of the era too, having sifted through the evidence for and against to come to such a conclusion?
We do substantive discussions here, not vitriolic resentment. Who is spamming Natan's blog? The comments seem to be substantive criticism. I think if he would stop maligning and slandering others, the commenters would leave him alone.
Disclaimer: The introductory text in italics and subtitle is from me.
I am wondering about what you write, that achdus comes from accepting people despite their differences. Surely that is very limited, as we don't accept Reform, Conservative, secular, secularist modox that are not too different than these- meaning we don't want *religious* achdus with them. But we can share national achdus, as long as they are ok with us not sharing religious achdus. The problem is that they are not ok with it. They resent it greatly that we don't accept their religious positions.
Wow!
167 comments, and mostly substantive. Both כמות and איכות.
Thank you!
There is another problem with the letter from Ms. Elitzur. She is a campaigner, and most recently she spoke publicly as part of the secular protests against judicial reform. There is zero chance that many mothers of Haredi boys will try to insure that their sons leave Yeshiva to enlist in the army, and the few that might indeed have such a conversation will certainly be unable to convince their sons to rebel against their own friends and rebbeim. Ms. Elitzur is not stupid, and knows this, so the letter is obviously not actually designed for Haredi mothers as she claims, but just another part of the sophisticated publicity stunts that the left-wing protest leaders have adopted. Too bad Slifkin plays along.
Plays along? It's a gigantic circle jerk. He cites her authoritatively, as if she should matter to anyone, let alone Charedim. She cites him, or people connected to him.
RJ is designed like that too.
See also
http://forum.otzar.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=17163&hilit=%D7%AA%D7%94%D7%99%D7%9C%D7%94+%D7%90%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%A6%D7%95%D7%A8&sid=137ce78084cbdfb9679080af8ffe3197
Why is that an issue which discounts her opinions and emotions?
Beside for what JaN writes- she is free to speak out her emotions, but it's fundamentally dishonest to present this as some sort of attempt to convince chareidi mothers. It reeks of cynicism or at least total cluelessness. A real attempt would involve somebody they could at least possibly respect- not a feminist, leftist campaigner.
Cluelessness? Maybe. Dont think its cynicism.
She's from "בית הלל", so it could be either (I know quite of a few of the founders and members, and indeed some are clueless and some are cynics)
Because the letter is not really about her emotions. It is playing upon the emotions of people in order to promote an agenda that threatens to harm the Yeshivos.
No. I think that really is the way she feels.
A person who 'feels' a certain way doesn't write open letters in the secular press far removed from the supposed recipient. She lives in Yerushalayim, works right near Bnei Brak, and if she truly wanted to speak with Haredim and their rabbanim, it wouldn't be too hard for her to arrange. Popular practice is to lay claim to sympathy by expressing one's emotions (for millions to read). This is cynicsm at its best.
It's called "virtue signalling."
The rabanim/ askanim wouldnt listen to her. No chareidi press would publish her letter. It would be impossible for her to convince them that way (i agree that this way also wont work but here she has more of a chance of reaching ppl on the fence).
People on the fence?
RZ Left-wingers agree with her agenda to begin with, חרדים disagree with her to begin with and she doesn't offer any reason to change that, חרדל"ים know that you can't trust anything that left-wingers write, die-hard חילונים hate חרדים anyway, and מסורתיים don't fall for this type of person.
ב"ה Her agenda has no chance of harming the ישיבות, since no one will listen to her letter.
Actually, since she is so extreme far left wing Modox, it's very probable that no one outside her echo chamber will follow her agenda.
I believe that these public campaigns to impugn the Yeshiva bachurim are indeed damaging. Rather than focusing on the midas hadin and the dreadful tragedies that the country is enduring, they serve to divert attention instead towards the Yeshiva Bachurim, and especially their rebbeim, who are portrayed as enemies of the people. This is what Slifkin has been trying to do for 20 years.
They are damaging, but not to Yeshivos.
They are damaging to national morale. Instead of viewing Hamas as the enemy, they will view the Charedi as the enemy.
Do you know what 'enemy' means?
AFAIK, these public campaigns are self contained within their echo camber, and the vast majority of people don't care about them at all.
I dont think thats true. Herzog is not considered far-left in Israel. She sounds classic gush.
The Gush is the left-wing part of the RZ community, and she belongs to "בית הלל" (as they call themselves), with is the left-wing of the Gush. So it is the far-left, compared to the wider RZ community.
Oh. Didnt know she was in beit hillel. Ye, thats very left. Bec מדרשת נשמת is also gush but theyre nothing like lindenbaum.
Hey Avraham, what do you think about this idea that commenter "Yehoshua" suggested, that perplexingly I have almost never seen suggested anywhere else. The idea is that people learn in yeshiva for about ten years, and when they are anyways leaving yeshiva to get parnassa, they join the army. It would be in a kosher hesder type, completely separate environment.
This would satisfy the Gedolim who don't want them to leave yeshiva (as we are dealing with people who are already leaving anyways). It would satisfy those who say it's not a kosher environment (make is a kosher, completely separate environment). It would satisfy those who want שוויון בנטל and chareidim to die (theoretically, it wouldn't satisfy those like Natan who want to secularize chareidi society). This wouldn't work for chassidim who seem to have more fundamental deep rooted opposition to the Zionist state, but I think it could work for the Litvishe world.
Hesder is not a separate army track.
Only the Charedi units (like Netzach Yehuda and Chetz) are separate kosher army tracks.
Those tracks are less religious though. Hard to get a minyan, etc
In the Charedi units, there are no women. And if there are at an event you are required to attend, you are exempt from participating.
The chesder recruits are all subject to the same treif army rules and discipline as anyone else.
Hesder* (כמו להסדיר)
Yes but they walk out when theres a טקס with קול אשה. Which other army rules? Hesder guys in Combat are not serving with women.
Sounds like hesder merkaz. They get a minimum training (9 months) so they can be called in for מילואים. Thats what they do in merkaz harav and har hamor.
Re chasidim they arent all so anti-zionist compared to litvaks. Peleg is more anti zionist compared to Belz or sanz.
A. Not exactly, even within the Peleg there are different degrees of anti-zionism.
Same with חסידויות, each חסידות is different.
B. הסדר מרכז used to have חרדים in it, about 25-30 years ago (that's what older friends of mine told me)
Interesting
The problem is that unlike hesder , hesder merkaz serve with chiloni men (unless the rules changed again).
The issue is that most ppl arent cut out for 10 yrs yeshiva.
I think most people raised in a serious Torah environment are. At least in the American yeshivish community, most people go to work between 28-30. But there are definitely more options for boys who don't want to go to kollel for that long
In ארץ ישראל, most people in the yeshivish world stay longer in כולל.
Maybe. I guesss if you dont do college it makes sense. I dont think thats so true outside lakewood. In Queens i think the average age guys leave yeshiva is 23-25.
Wow nice blog guys. The pictures a bit over the top but its good to show the other perspective
This is my FAVORITE blog! Such knowledgeable, intellectual blog hosts and commenters. And then you also have this test fellow for comic relief. He's Pulitzer material!
I agree! BANana 🍌, you should write a post or two!!
Being cannon fodder? The purpose of sacrificing? For the Bagatz,inner apparatus,& coterie, to continue driving the jewish people off another global cliff? & then what?! Nihilism! The definition of....
"the friends of Hamas"
???!!!
What on earth is wrong with you???
And with everyone here that just lets such a phrase slide??
Why do you think I was talking about you? I was referring to people who used the war almost exclusively as an opportunity to stoke anger and hatred against their fellow Jews, to increase Sinas Chinam as much as possible. Wouldn't you agree such a person can be figuratively called a friend of Hamas?
Cuz everyone here has been trained to ignore the tafel for the ikkar.
Because everyone here has a Yeshiva training, and they know that getting hung up on small phrases distracts from the main point.
Funny how things turn out.
No. It's every single small phrase should matter in learning. It's precisely because of the mehalech you flag, ignoring small phrases, writing them off as 'lav davka', when they can't be explained, or is not compatible with the sevoroh one chavrusoh is yelling at the other, that accounts for the sorry state of learning today.
The gedolei rosh yeshivos do not ignore 'small phrases'.
Hey Natan, I adjusted my filter to lock me out of RJ for the time being. I was getting too busy with it. I'm sure you'll be missing me. So long for now! 😘😘
Dude, just curious, if you yourself control your filter adjustments, what's stopping you from undoing that move?
Lol, excellent question! The way my filter works is that things that it finds offensive based on the algorithm (both text and images) are blocked automatically. After that, there are a whole bunch of categories that the account admin can block or unblock with the password. Only my wife has the password and not me. I had her block it.
Cool bro! I should get a filter too! It's messed up that I never heard of this. The internet has such awful things!
Which filter do you recommend?
I use Techloq
https://www.techloq.com/
There is also Gentech https://www.gentechsolution.com/ and Netfree https://netfree.link/welcome/#/wifree2 . They all have their pros and cons. There is a non-profit organization called TAG https://tag.org/ which is there to provide advice and support for all things internet filter-related. Good luck! Big mitzvah to get your devices filtered!
#techloq
Best ever
Thanks my dude! I'll check it out!
Yo 😎
You are a lousy rhetorician. Or, alternatively, you are a rhetorical retard. Read the following and maybe you'll learn a thing or two and have your eyes opened.
https://voxday.net/2023/12/08/the-essence-of-rhetoric/
To the extent you embrace ideas contra our mesorah, rhetorically, you are a friend of Hamas, regardless of the lack of factual content in the phrase as it applies to you, or the intended audience.
It must bother you because you consider yourself in that group.
As per Rabbenu Yonah, you are a hater of Hashem. You used to brush such off. How do you feel about the label now?
I think he should be banned
R slifkin,even if correct in your accusation.It does not invalidate the argument made here.
Do you care to respond to that?
It has been a while.
Hashkafic Homeless Shelter (aka Hashkafic Halfway House) was banned at RJ.
"We respect each other for our differences"
I have 0 respect for Yair Lapid or his voters. I have less than 0 respect for a woman who tries to bring feminism into Judaism. The only acceptable approach to feminism is strict, 100%, 0 tolerance. There is no conversation to be had with a woman, Jewish or not, frum or not, who holds feminist beliefs; just immediately (and politely) end any and all contact with her... on any subject... ever.
"Only when we make the decision to improve our Bein Adam Lachaveiro and to really attempt to connect to all of Klal Yisroel"
The number one reason that RZ society is a total mess in comparison to Haredi society is because the RZ's insist on attempting to connect to all of Klal Yisroel. Attempting to connect to Klal Yisroel is how you get Gush Katif.
One does not connect with people who vote for Yair Lapid. On the contrary, one should do everything possible to separate from them. I get that they are still Jews, we still have to pray for them, we still have to help them when they are in need and we ~definitely~ don't want to see them kidnapped, tortured and slaughtered by our genuinely satanic neo Canaanite enemies; but it is a mistake to go beyond that. These are bad people, they are a toxic influence, they have already brought unspeakable tragedies on us all and we have absolutely nothing to learn from them.
"True Achdus is accepting others despite their differences..."
I cannot accept Yair Lapid and his voters. I don't want to and I don't believe that I am supposed to. I certainly can't accept any feminists. I'm willing to leave such people alone to stew in their own misery, but I also know these types very well and how there is no live and let live with them: they will always come after us. It's who they are. It's what they do.
"...and appreciating the contributions each of us gives, not seeking the differences and sowing discord"
Yair Lapid, "frum" feminists, et al. contribute literally nothing positive to the Jewish people. I always hear this, "everyone has something to contribute" line and I don't buy it at all.
"What a shame!"
Is it though? In the immediate aftermath of Oct 7th it was necessary for us to temporarily put aside our differences but we all knew that that state of affairs could never have lasted, nor should it have. There are very serious issues between us that are not going away. Ultimately, the fissures currently afflicting the Jewish people will not be resolved by dialogue, but rather by one side defeating the other side and forcing its worldview upon them.
It's better for all this stuff to be out in the open
As I wrote, it does not come naturally.
But anyway, I was writing regarding the views of others who learn Torah to find the truth. Even if we disagree with their outcomes, we do not discount them or their sincerity.
So were you not implying that we should respect Ms. Elitzur's views? Because that's how it read.
Do you think dialogue with people like her is productive or desirable?
I respect the views of those who think that we should all join the IDF, even as I disagree with it.
I am upset, but not surprised, that she does not respect the views of those who disagree with her. I am demanding a feeling of achdus that allows us to respect each other past our differences. Preceding achdus with the others accepting our views is not achdus, it is communism.
I am pleasantly surprised your taking this position
When it is obvious that their desire to draft us is a desire to change us, I don't respect them. Yair Lapid is not worthy of respect. But I do think we owe an answer to the sincere ones out there, and we certainly cannot discount them or our debt of gratitude to what they do.
I don't wish to reveal my identity here, but much of what I write is verbatim from my Rebbeim, who are as Charedi as it gets. Prefer no Limudei Chol in Chadarim CHaredi.
I know that youre very chareidi. I went to a moderate chareidi high school (חפץ חיים) and nobody there talks like you. Id assume youre a brisker.
Do you mean you respect those who say that all Jews should voluntarily enlist (I also respect that position) or are you saying that you respect the views of those who say that frum Jews who don't want to join should be coerced into joining? The latter position deserves 0 respect
You have 0 respect for half of כלל ישראל? Shame on you.
They took us out of גלות! Israel was mostly founded by מפאי and the kibutzim! Youd rather us stay in חוץ לארץ! You dont pray for a שיבה לציון!?
Btw if you cant read the hebrew it just proves how removed you are from כלל ישראל.
No, we are still in golus.
We pray for a שיבה לציון, but not like this.
We are, first and foremost, Bnei Bris. Someone who rejects that Bris, has rejected Judaism. Even if they build the land, found kibutzim, and fight wars. Those are secondary to the Bris we have with Hashem.
Have you ever thought deeply why Hashem allowed secularists to 'rebuild' the land and allows those secularists to faciliate, build the infrastructure to support etc etc the massive amounts of torah learning that now takes place in EY?
Because even if you haven't (I know, thinking deeply is challenging, unless its about a generally irrelavant arcane topic like nisroknoh of a naroh hameureses, which has no practical ramifications for you whatever the conclusion) other talmidei chachomim have (even of the charedi sort) and have reached some intereting conclusions.
Or do you follow the Satmar shittoh that its all a maseh soton?
The answer is הלואי אותי עזבו ותורתי שמרו.
Leave Hashem's cheshbonos to Him, we only have to keep the Torah. Nothing else. Hashem works in mysterious ways, we don't have to involve ourselves in His plans.
He wants us occupying ourselves with נתרוקנה and מפגלין בחצי מתיר, not His plans for the world.
"Leave Hashem's cheshbonos to Him"
That's not the mesorah. Hashem wants us to try as much as possible to understand his ways and why He does things. Go ask the Ramchal. We are supposed to learn lessons from things, don't you know? Not just write them off as 'leave Hashem's cheshbonos to Him'. If He chose to build the state, and indirectly through all that torah learning, through resho'im, there must be a lesson to us. Some meaning. Something.
"Leave Hashem's cheshbonos' to him is a convenient charedi cop-out, used when convenient, to avoid difficult issues like Meron (and, as you have just done, the state of Israel), and considered heresy when used in other situations. Chareidi stalwards like Reb Avigdor Miller do not use 'leave Hashem's cheshbonos to him' when blaming the holocaust on all sorts of things.
We still appreciate the good they do. Were not מקפיד about how Hashem runs the world. If he brings the קיבוץ גלויות in their merit, we should pay attention. We obviously need to help them though as we still have a long way to go.
The Rambam clearly says Moshiach will be responsible for kibbutz galiout
Melochim 11:1
הַמֶּלֶךְ הַמָּשִׁיחַ עָתִיד לַעֲמֹד וּלְהַחְזִיר מַלכוּת דָּוִד לְיָשְׁנָהּ לַמֶּמְשָׁלָה הָרִאשׁוֹנָה. וּבוֹנֶה הַמִּקְדָּשׁ וּמְקַבֵּץ נִדְחֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל.
He dosent speak of משיח בן יוסף though. Acc to rav kook, the physical redemption comes from him to prepare for משיח בן דוד
Hashem did not bring kibutz galiyos in the merit of people whose actions are everything the Torah warns about ולא תקיא הארץ אתכם. If what we are seeing over the last 75 years is the beginning of kibutz galiyos, then it is despite the actions of such people, ch"v not because of them.
It could be both. They could lose what they gained.
"Btw if you cant read the hebrew it just proves how removed you are from כלל ישראל."
I don't know what that means but I'm assuming it means Klal Yisroel. To tell you the truth, I'm much more connected to Klal Yisroel then I myself realized, hence my intense distress over Oct 7th. I didn't even cry when my father died but I broke down over Oct 7th. It took me months to feel normal again.
But that doesn't mean I ignore reality either.
I'm extremely removed from Israeli Chilonim, that is true. That is something that I am very proud of. They are scoundrels and when they are back in Europe and the Arab countries, the Jewish people will be much better off.
"Youd rather us stay in חוץ לארץ!"
I'm assuming this means galut, in which case my response is an unequivocal "yes". The Jewish people would be in much better shape if the Zionist state had never been founded. I don't even see how that is debatable.
"You dont pray for a שיבה לציון!?"
I don't pray, period. I don't know how to pray.
I'm assuming you wrote Redemption. To me, that's now on autopilot. I think we are basically at the end and very soon the Jewish people will be redeemed and will have full sovereignty over all of our land, and that the Palestinians and their backers will be brought to justice for all their crimes against us. None of that means that I have to support the Zionist entity. In fact, if the Redemption is only a few years away regardless, Zionism is basically irrelevant.
Why would you want jews to leave israel? Do you know any torah sources on the importance of the land? How can you call all secular jews in israel scoundrels? Have you met any? Who are you to judge so many jews? Youve even said that youve never been to israel!
If you dont pray this would explain a lot. Our prayers are in plural- we connect to Hashem as a nation. We yearn every day to return to israel. Even if we dont yet have a torah state, youre delusional for not realizing where Hashem brought us. Look at how many jews in America assimilated! Look what happened to europe!
What makes you think the redemtion is a few years a way?
Is משיח some sort of superman to you? Is he going to come back from the dead or something?
This is actually a machlokes in the Gemara with no clear answer. Do you know the answer better than Chazal?
"Do you know any torah sources on the importance of the land?"
Do you know any Torah sources on the danger to the Jewish people that comes from Jews holding LGBT pride rallies in our land?
"Who are you to judge so many jews?"
Who were they to expel thousands of my brothers from Gush Katif?
"How can you call all secular jews in israel scoundrels? Have you met any? "
Sadly, yes. Many. I live in America and I used to live in Toronto. Israeli Chilonim are all over the place here. Hopefully America will tighten it's immigration laws so they just go to Europe instead from now on.
"Look at how many jews in America assimilated!"
That is a good thing! I was so happy when my brother and sister married gentiles. There are certain people who the Jewish people are better off without. If Tommy Lapid had never made made aliyah, Yair would have been born in Miami and would have married a gentile woman instead of remaining attached to us like the toxic leach that he is.
"We yearn every day to return to israel"
We don't, or at least shouldn't, want Jews who are going to worship Buddha statues and march in Gay Pride parades living in Eretz Yisrael. Religious Jews were making aliyah for over 1000 years before the Zionists showed up in the 1870s and declared that they owned the place. We do not need Zionism to live in our land.
"Look what happened to europe!"
1. A Zionist state would not have prevented the Holocaust
2. By antagonizing the Arabs, the Zionists created a situation where fewer Jews were able to immigrate to the Land of Israel in the decades proceeding the Holocaust. Tens, if not hundreds of thousands of more Jews would have been saved if not for Zionism.
"What makes you think the redemtion is a few years a way?"
Something like Oct 7th is clearly a divine decree. Even the IDF isn't ~that~ incompetent. The US is about to lose in Ukraine and will shortly thereafter lose Taiwan to China. The Russians are already in Syria and they probably helped plan and carry out Oct 7th. They are coming for us and it won't be long now. That's when we'll be redeemed.
Israel was not "mostly founded by מפאי and the kibutzim". They couldn't have done anything without the עליות והתיישבות before them, who were mostly religious. Even after the עליה השניה which was mostly secular, they couldn't have survived, let alone succeed without הציונות הדתית and the non-labor ציונות חילונית
מזרחי then was quite weak. The religious for the most part had no plan of gaining independence. Even begins אצל and sternslechi were minorities.
A. Neither did almost anyone, until very late. The only ones who supported complete indepedence from the beginning were לח"י (who indeed were a very small minority) and מרן הרב זצ"ל (who was an even smaller minority).
B. ה' gave us independence because it's part of הנהגת הייחוד, not because of our merits or our חשבונות.
C. Without the prior religious עליות there would be nothing here to work with.
D. מזרחי was much stronger than what מפא"י's propaganda claims. So were the חברה האזרחית and the רביזיונסטים.
A.I also like the lechi
B. Obviously its ה'. Who were his messengers? מרן הרב זצ"ל gives them great credit.
C. They also contributed to an extent.
D. Whos the חברה האזרחית?
How do you know? They would say the could have done more without those religious holding them back. Like Satmar say moshiach would be here by now without the state. Anybody can say anything, unless you have historical evidence to support your view.
Are you are historian of the era too, having sifted through the evidence for and against to come to such a conclusion?
I have spent hundreds of hours doing exactly that.
Well, so have I, and that is not what the evidence shows.
"Vitriolic resentment is no substitute for substantive discussions"
How about your band of merry men practice what you preach and stop spamming Natan's blog? Or is it a one-way road only?
We do substantive discussions here, not vitriolic resentment. Who is spamming Natan's blog? The comments seem to be substantive criticism. I think if he would stop maligning and slandering others, the commenters would leave him alone.
You remind me of Mr Avimelech.
וַיֹּאמֶר אֲבִימֶלֶךְ לֹא יָדַעְתִּי מִי עָשָׂה אֶת הַדָּבָר הַזֶּה וְגַם אַתָּה לֹא הִגַּדְתָּ לִּי וְגַם אָנֹכִי לֹא שָׁמַעְתִּי בִּלְתִּי הַיּוֹם
If we're quoting random pesukim I can also do that
חֲסַר מְשֻׁגָּעִים אָנִי כִּי הֲבֵאתֶם אֶת זֶה לְהִשְׁתַּגֵּעַ עָלָי הֲזֶה יָבוֹא אֶל בֵּיתִי
חסר משגעים אני
Indeed. Your house is already full of madmen.
I specifically recall you being very unhappy with my pointing out hypocrisy.
While there is admittedly some spamming.There is a significant amount of valid critique.
Your generalisation is out of place.