I very much appreciate this as someone who did serve in the army. I don't agree with the haredi ideology obviously but I am also disgusted by the hatred toward haredim by supposedly religious zionists.
We believe that going to the army is part of the Torah. Therefore, haredim who don't go to the army are not completely fulfilling the Torah. But the secular aren't fulfilling the Torah at all! Without the Torah, we have no claim to the land of Israel! Without Torah, we have no protection at all. Rav Teichtal explains this all at length. Rather than complaining about how haredim don't fulfill their fair share of army service, we should discuss about how the secular, the majority of the country, are far behind on their Torah observance, which is our true source of protection.
Unfortunately, there are many powerful Slifkinesque parties in the media whose goal it is to stir up resentment, which is blown up out of all proportion. Any chareidi who comes into contact with Israel chilonim knows the line "if all the charedim were like you......" - their idea of a chareidi is how the media (and Slifkiin) portrays them and they get a shock when they meet the real macoy.
I am, and have been for many years, in daily contact with chilonim who do know chareidim - and they all without exception treat me with great respect and affection. And even while they don't understand why chareidim don't serve in the army, they realise it is for ideological reasons (which they disagree with!) - but not for all the nasty, selfish reasons that Slifkin and his ilk portrary
But then there are the little unpleasant experiences you get when passing through charedi areas. Ive had a bunch. Even if its mainly kids it still shows an overall issue with their mentality as a whole which gives their critics ammo.
No it isn't. I appreciate what my local police force do (well, I did back in the day when the police actually policed), but I have zero 'achdus' with them. Ditto the garbage collectors. I appreciate what they do, but zero 'achdus'.
Two completely different things, and word salads do not change that.
When the person is 'one people' with you, appreciation leads to achdus.
When the person is not 'one people', appreciation does not lead to achdus.
Please explain the cause and effect here. What about a pork guzzling, shabbos breaking, adulterous druggie transvestite chiloni, who collects your garbage in Yerushalayim. Are you seriously suggesting that appreciating what 'it' does will lead to 'achdus'?
Again, you are just playing with words here - no real set out bullet pointed thoughts.
And in any event, 'leading to achdus' is not achdus, by definition.
I'm sorry, can you explain what's unclear using a powerpoint presentation (minimum ten slides) - bullet points included - and, as always, an audio clip on the side, perhaps an mp3 series of lectures, highlighting all of your frustrations and angsts? I have trouble understanding the normal written word format you use in these comments.
I'm asking you to explain the linkage. What is the link between 'one people' and 'appreciation leading to achdus'. Why does appreciation not lead to achdus in the case of the garbage collector but it will in the case of an extreme chiloni Jew?
A very simple question. The point is of course you are confused between cause and effect. You are using achdus, which is the end result, suddenly in the explanation of the cause.
Unfortunately, there are many powerful Slifkinesque parties in the media whose goal it is to stir up resentment, which is blown up out of all proportion. Any chareidi who comes into contact with Israel chilonim knows the line "if all the charedim were like you......" - their idea of a chareidi is how the media (and Slifkiin) portrays them and they get a shock when they meet the real macoy.
I am, and have been for many years, in daily contact with chilonim who do know chareidim - and they all without exception treat me with great respect and affection. And even while they don't understand why chareidim don't serve in the army, they realise it is for ideological reasons (which they disagree with!) - but not for all the nasty, selfish reasons that Slifkin and his ilk portrary
That's a really good point. All the regular (non-indoctrinated-to-hate-tzionim) Charedim are very different than the picture painted by rabbi doctor and co.
What you are unaware of, happily closeted in Lakewood, is that a typical chareidi kid even in an area that was once moderate, for example, Har Nof, is indeed subtly indoctrinated to hate tziyonim. The children of Western immigrants less so due to their parents, but Har Nof now already has the next generation who are fairly well indoctrinated that tziyonim, religious or otherwise, are out to destroy the chareidi way of life.
I'm very aware and the percentage of those indoctrinated is alarming. I can't well blame them with all that's going on politically to spread hate against Charedim (as per Su's comment) but our part in creating achdus is to be grateful and appreciative for what they do
Well if you are aware, why did you imply that 'regular' charedim are not-indoctrinated. It's simply not true. Chareidim who are immigrants are not, in many cases (but not all, it depends on the parents), their children are more balanced, but after that, they are no difference.
I remember friends considering immigrating, visiting Israeli schools. The father said, "My children are quite calm, easy going children." To which the head said "No, in this school we only want lions" (it sound better in Hebrew). Needless to say, they chose not to immigrate.
Dasan and Aviram merited their very own splitting of the Red Sea because they were the Jewish policemen back in Egypt who received beatings as representatives of the Jewish people when the latter weren't able to fulfil their daily quota of bricks.
You are conscripted to the Army ,not a volunteer army. You are obligated to perform the מצווה. Not to do so is to be מבטל an עשה. Also you are violating אל תעמוד על דם רעך. This is an obligation on everyone required to go.
This misses the point of this post. We can argue until we're blue about if we should be serving or not. But given that were not because of our highly respectable poskim, even if you think we should, there still is a way to promote achdus.
You are conscripted to the Army ,not a volunteer army. You are obligated to perform the מצווה. Not to do so is to be מבטל an עשה. Also you are violating אל תעמוד על דם רעך. This is an obligation on everyone required to go.
So we'll put! The analogy is perfect. So, let's consider a kollel man who failed to exhibit the gratitude you illustrated. Let's say his myopic attitude caused resentment in his wife. What who his Rav or therapist tell him about her lashings out? Would he be advised to return tit-for-tat? Or would he be encouraged to listen beyond her words and anger, to hear her pain, and practice empathy? Is that what is called for in the shalom bais in society?
I very much appreciate this as someone who did serve in the army. I don't agree with the haredi ideology obviously but I am also disgusted by the hatred toward haredim by supposedly religious zionists.
We believe that going to the army is part of the Torah. Therefore, haredim who don't go to the army are not completely fulfilling the Torah. But the secular aren't fulfilling the Torah at all! Without the Torah, we have no claim to the land of Israel! Without Torah, we have no protection at all. Rav Teichtal explains this all at length. Rather than complaining about how haredim don't fulfill their fair share of army service, we should discuss about how the secular, the majority of the country, are far behind on their Torah observance, which is our true source of protection.
Unfortunately, there are many powerful Slifkinesque parties in the media whose goal it is to stir up resentment, which is blown up out of all proportion. Any chareidi who comes into contact with Israel chilonim knows the line "if all the charedim were like you......" - their idea of a chareidi is how the media (and Slifkiin) portrays them and they get a shock when they meet the real macoy.
I am, and have been for many years, in daily contact with chilonim who do know chareidim - and they all without exception treat me with great respect and affection. And even while they don't understand why chareidim don't serve in the army, they realise it is for ideological reasons (which they disagree with!) - but not for all the nasty, selfish reasons that Slifkin and his ilk portrary
But then there are the little unpleasant experiences you get when passing through charedi areas. Ive had a bunch. Even if its mainly kids it still shows an overall issue with their mentality as a whole which gives their critics ammo.
Where in this point do you discuss 'charedie achdus'?
Hakoros hatov* is not achdus, and achdus is not hakoras hatov. Words mean things.
*L'shitoseich, that there is genuine 'hakoras hatov'.
It sure is. Appreciating what others do for you is a large step towards coming together.
Sigh.
No it isn't. I appreciate what my local police force do (well, I did back in the day when the police actually policed), but I have zero 'achdus' with them. Ditto the garbage collectors. I appreciate what they do, but zero 'achdus'.
Two completely different things, and word salads do not change that.
Because you're not inherently one people with your local police
Ok - so you have said the following;
When the person is 'one people' with you, appreciation leads to achdus.
When the person is not 'one people', appreciation does not lead to achdus.
Please explain the cause and effect here. What about a pork guzzling, shabbos breaking, adulterous druggie transvestite chiloni, who collects your garbage in Yerushalayim. Are you seriously suggesting that appreciating what 'it' does will lead to 'achdus'?
Again, you are just playing with words here - no real set out bullet pointed thoughts.
And in any event, 'leading to achdus' is not achdus, by definition.
I'm sorry, can you explain what's unclear using a powerpoint presentation (minimum ten slides) - bullet points included - and, as always, an audio clip on the side, perhaps an mp3 series of lectures, highlighting all of your frustrations and angsts? I have trouble understanding the normal written word format you use in these comments.
I'm not saying anything is unclear.
I'm asking you to explain the linkage. What is the link between 'one people' and 'appreciation leading to achdus'. Why does appreciation not lead to achdus in the case of the garbage collector but it will in the case of an extreme chiloni Jew?
A very simple question. The point is of course you are confused between cause and effect. You are using achdus, which is the end result, suddenly in the explanation of the cause.
What about your ex-wife? Did you not appreciate her enough?
If this was the attitude on the Israeli charedi street there wouldnt be a fraction as much resentment.
Unfortunately, there are many powerful Slifkinesque parties in the media whose goal it is to stir up resentment, which is blown up out of all proportion. Any chareidi who comes into contact with Israel chilonim knows the line "if all the charedim were like you......" - their idea of a chareidi is how the media (and Slifkiin) portrays them and they get a shock when they meet the real macoy.
I am, and have been for many years, in daily contact with chilonim who do know chareidim - and they all without exception treat me with great respect and affection. And even while they don't understand why chareidim don't serve in the army, they realise it is for ideological reasons (which they disagree with!) - but not for all the nasty, selfish reasons that Slifkin and his ilk portrary
That's a really good point. All the regular (non-indoctrinated-to-hate-tzionim) Charedim are very different than the picture painted by rabbi doctor and co.
What you are unaware of, happily closeted in Lakewood, is that a typical chareidi kid even in an area that was once moderate, for example, Har Nof, is indeed subtly indoctrinated to hate tziyonim. The children of Western immigrants less so due to their parents, but Har Nof now already has the next generation who are fairly well indoctrinated that tziyonim, religious or otherwise, are out to destroy the chareidi way of life.
I'm very aware and the percentage of those indoctrinated is alarming. I can't well blame them with all that's going on politically to spread hate against Charedim (as per Su's comment) but our part in creating achdus is to be grateful and appreciative for what they do
Well if you are aware, why did you imply that 'regular' charedim are not-indoctrinated. It's simply not true. Chareidim who are immigrants are not, in many cases (but not all, it depends on the parents), their children are more balanced, but after that, they are no difference.
I remember friends considering immigrating, visiting Israeli schools. The father said, "My children are quite calm, easy going children." To which the head said "No, in this school we only want lions" (it sound better in Hebrew). Needless to say, they chose not to immigrate.
Well written article!!!
Dasan and Aviram merited their very own splitting of the Red Sea because they were the Jewish policemen back in Egypt who received beatings as representatives of the Jewish people when the latter weren't able to fulfil their daily quota of bricks.
Sweet post.
You are conscripted to the Army ,not a volunteer army. You are obligated to perform the מצווה. Not to do so is to be מבטל an עשה. Also you are violating אל תעמוד על דם רעך. This is an obligation on everyone required to go.
This misses the point of this post. We can argue until we're blue about if we should be serving or not. But given that were not because of our highly respectable poskim, even if you think we should, there still is a way to promote achdus.
While I served in the army, and I have a son in a combat unit in the army (currently in עזה), I disagree with you, as I wrote here in other threads.
You are conscripted to the Army ,not a volunteer army. You are obligated to perform the מצווה. Not to do so is to be מבטל an עשה. Also you are violating אל תעמוד על דם רעך. This is an obligation on everyone required to go.
A bit too much info imo
Lol
So we'll put! The analogy is perfect. So, let's consider a kollel man who failed to exhibit the gratitude you illustrated. Let's say his myopic attitude caused resentment in his wife. What who his Rav or therapist tell him about her lashings out? Would he be advised to return tit-for-tat? Or would he be encouraged to listen beyond her words and anger, to hear her pain, and practice empathy? Is that what is called for in the shalom bais in society?
If he wasn't showing gratitude and she was showing resentment, that's all on him to fix! In short, he'd better grow up fast!