Constant economic propping up of Chareidi society will cause diversion of essential funds for essential public services for the Chareidim. So the state doesn't collapse and the Chareidim starve it still causes damage to the general public and unfairly shifts the tax burden to rest or the general public. WHY? אם לא עכשיו אימתי?!."
Uh, ok, I'm glad we are agreeing that the apocalyptic doom-mongering is a fantasy. "Diversion of essential public services to the chareidim"-If they are essential, they are essential for the chareidim as well, and it's not a diversion. "Unfairly"? There is nothing unfair about it. You set up a socialist system, you reap both the benefits and downsides of such a system. What's unfair is forcing Shomrei Torah u'Mitzvos (both of the chareidi and non-chareidi type) to pay for all sorts of useless courses in universities that will never translate into any material economic gain, including tons and tons of kefira. "אם לא עכשיו אימתי"- what exactly does he propose we do עכשיו? Chareidim are the ones setting up jobs programs for chareidim, certainly people like him are not doing it. See the last link in my post.
The correlation between education and income is just that, a correlation. The real causal relationship is that between delaying instant gratification and income, as seen in the working Chevra in Lakewood and 5 towns. Lots of financial success with minimal advanced education. Only clueless academics still beleive in education as the sole means to earn an income.
******
Jul 4
Liked by Natan Slifkin
You are confusing 'advanced education' with 'education' in the same paragrapg You cannot compare the education that was given to the typical 'working chevra in Lakewood and the 5 towns' to the situation in Israel.
Big Mouth
3 hr ago
I have a pircha from American chasidim who are very successful if they choose to be.
Natan Slifkin
34 min ago
Author
In many cases - more than people realize - this is because they are skilled at extracting money from non-Jews.
Big Mouth
30 min ago
You are not speaking from any real experience or insight, just repeating Modox dogma (a dogma i grew up with as well.) Overwhelming majority of successful chassidish businesses are just that - successful businesses."
Obviously Big Mouth is right here. But what's interesting that when Natan is confronted with a community where people actually do work and do well for themselves, his reaction is not "gee, this is wonderful, I hope chareidim emulate them". When confronted with successful chasidic businesses, his reaction is a pure, hateful, classic anti-semitic trope of "they are skilled at extracting money from non-Jews". He must have been reading a lot of Protocols of the Elders of Zion lately. In addition, his description would include most of the financial professions and hitech that Israeli secularists engage, which is mostly extractive in the sense he is talking about. You can't do anti-semitic tropes לחצאין.
I receive emails from people in New York telling me about all kinds of schemes to defraud both individuals and government. Do you know about the Covid scheme that got 3 billion dollars?"
Wow, this really takes the cake. How does he know that chassidim are only successful through fraud and "extracting money from non-Jews"? Because he RECIEVED EMAILS FROM PEOPLE IN NEW YORK telling him about it. What amazing inestigative skills! But he didn't really need all those emails. He could have come to Irrationalist Modoxism and read hundreds of comments from "test" alleging that the entire chareidi community is based on theft and fraud! QED!
But I can do even better. I don't need emails from people in New York or comments from "test". I just typed "fraud" into google and it immediately returned millions of examples of fraud in the highly educated secularist society. So clearly every society in every country in the world is based on fraud and theft. QED!
But isn't the point of chareidim to be holier than the rest? Chored al d'var hashem and all that? The torah team, as Dovid claims. The closest to Hashem. Walking talking kiddush hashem?
Not sure how stealing via a covid scheme 'stims' with all of that. We have come a long way since the Chofetz Chaim supposedly tore up a mail stamp to comply with government regulations. And reb whoever trudged through the snow to return a kopeck to some Russian goy.
Under the imaginary cloak of piety, chareidim are no different to everyone else. You just admitted it
Classic moron. I never said or implied "the goyim do it to". My point was that "I receive emails from people in New York telling me about all kinds of schemes" is a really stupid way to draw conclusions about a community.
No. You said a lot more than that. But as usual, you can't deal with the 'etzem nekudah".
" So clearly every society in every country in the world is based on fraud and theft. QED"
Does that statement of yours include chareidim? Yes or no. I assume yes, because you brought it to show how Slifkin could have used that to demonstrate that chareidim commit fraud, with no need for emails from NY.
There are scammers in every community. The difference with chassidim is that it is officially acceptable in much of the community (because it's "only" against goyim, and the goyim are antisemites/a lower form of life), and implemented against the government through the coordination of many institutions. So it happens on a much larger scale. The NYT exposes were just the tip of the iceberg."
Ah, more antisemitic tropes! Yidden tend to steal from goyim because they consider them a "lower form of life".
I am glad he is acknowledging that there are scams in every community, but he is incredibly unaware that they are no different than Jewish scams, and are implemented through the coordination of many institutions as well, and on a much larger scale. Clearly he never opened up a single newspaper or news website. And before test starts with his verbal excrement, no, that does not justify Jewish greed and theft.
Also, I happen to know that all Zionists are fraudster and thieves. Source- some people at the Satmar shtieble told me.
"Yidden tend to steal from goyim because they consider them a "lower form of life". "
No, they are more sophisticated than that. They belive gezel akum is muttar. Chareidim are good at finding kullos when it suits them, I am sure some rabbi somwhere said staeling from the Tzar is permitted. Especially as it funds most of their torah centered lifestyle, the bits the gevirim cannot or will not fill. You can justify anything on the basis that 'how else can we manage, do we need to starve?'.
Uh, no they don't. You have to be a pretty big am ha'aretz to think gezel akkum is muttar, which I'm sure describes yourself, but why project on others?
"I am sure some rabbi somwhere said staeling from the Tzar is permitted."- A,the old "I am sure some rabbi said"! A very rigorous "shpitz yeshivish" method of establishing facts. Again, I believe this is your epistemology, but why project on other?
Yes, to say that chassidim are extracting money from non-jews, is full fledged anti-semitism. And then he gets gets insulted when I compare him to David Duke.
But bigmouth is wrong, he should not call all modox anti semites. Natan speaks for himself, and only himself.
"There is nothing unfair about it. You set up a socialist system, you reap both the benefits and downsides of such a system. "
Strangely, when benefits are cut, we don’t hear that logic. We hear 'you are starving our children'. If you want to rely on the socialist system as a defence, you have to accept it when the same system cuts benefits, no?
Sure, if you compare *starving* to "this group is getting more money than me", then you are right. But you would have to be a pretty depraved type of person to make such a comparison. But I would never underestimate you, test!
Excellent post! Especially that quote about economists and astrology. I feel that economic theory is the modern manifestation of the concept of מזל.
However one understands the mechanics of אין מזל לישראל, the concept behind it is that the אומות העולם, who are compared to the sun, have a compulsion to try to predict and control their future, even as they are proven wrong time after time, whereas ישראל is למעלה מן השמש and compared to the לבנה in that they realize that their future can vary greatly from the current apparent trajectory.
In general, I feel that Slifkin, Tzarich Iyun and the like are only hurting their cause by obsessing over the future, as no intelligent frum jew will take that seriously. If they would focus solely on the present, such as the supposed massive Chilul Hashem caused by the chareidi parties' supposed obsession with money, perhaps they would be taken more seriously. But perhaps they don't really believe that the chareidi parties are that obsessed with money, and therefore must redirect the conversation?
If they were so obsessed with money, they would be telling their constituents to get jobs and education and join the army en masse. So like you say, that idea makes 0 sense.
Also, I like how you tied that into the sun and the moon, very interesting. הַגִּ֣ידוּ וְהַגִּ֔ישׁוּ אַ֥ף יִֽוָּעֲצ֖וּ יַחְדָּ֑ו מִ֣י הִשְׁמִ֩יעַ֩ זֹ֨את מִקֶּ֜דֶם מֵאָ֣ז הִגִּידָ֗הּ הֲל֨וֹא אֲנִ֤י יְהֹוָה֙ וְאֵֽין־ע֤וֹד אֱלֹהִים֙ מִבַּלְעָדַ֔י אֵל־צַדִּ֣יק וּמוֹשִׁ֔יעַ אַ֖יִן זוּלָתִֽי׃
I don't agree with Slifkin here. It might surprise you but in the world of grown ups (not the overgrown bochurim that populate yeshivah land masquerading as adults but with the maturity level of bochurim, see how mamy married men with children run after kigel and cholunt just like when they were bochurim) you can agree with some things people say and disagree with others. You can also criticise leitzonus, misquotes and faulty arguments without that meaning you agree with the target of the mockery.
So to be clear I guess you agree with happy and myself. You just don't agree with calling the other side of a debate unintelligent. (But you do agree with calling them "overgrown bochurim that populate yeshivah land masquerading as adults but with the maturity level of bochurim etc".)
One can add, that thousands of Chareidim already do work. The seculars (and the Slifkins who follow in their ways) bemoan the fact that we don't work. They fail to note that many many do work. Yes, even though most do not have the secular education that they want us to have, many do find ways to earn income. In very many Chareidi families, once the family gets large, additional sources of income are needed. Not only are they needed, they are found as well!! This is true where I live in Israel, and it is true even more so in the US where I grew up.
I personally have many family members who received a lets call it 'a less than stellar secular education' when young. These are almost all working today. Some struggle, and some are doing well. In Israel, it is the same thing. Even with their education, many still find ways to earn income!
When 'they' complain with their doom and gloom scenarios, and demand that Chareidim enter the workforce, what they really mean, is that the Chareidim have a full secular education, and become more like them in all ways. In other words, to stop being Chareidi. That is really what they want.
When 'they' complain about chareidim stealing their money by taking benefits, I wonder how many of them actually know how little the Chareid gets in benefits more than anyone else? (Hint: once child stipends and socialized medicine are removed from the picture because all citizens get them, the answer is very little!) When they complain about kolel students getting money, do they actually know what a kolel salary is? Probably not!
Let us give an example. The Mirrer Yeshivah in Jerusalem pumps millions of shekels into the Israeli economy. Yes, millions! (I am pretty sure it pumps far more into the economy than Slifkin's museum.) There are a few thousand students, many of them from foreign countries. Most of them rent a place to sleep. The Yeshivah cooks thousands of meals a day for these students. That means food for thousands of meal is purchased. Staff is paid to cook the meals. There are dozens of local businesses that cater almost exclusively to these students. More money pumped into the economy. Because of the Yeshivah, thousands of airline tickets are purchased in a single year. More money pumped into the economy.
The point is not that they take benefits. The point is they lie to do so, and complete forms fraudlantly. In the UK, every benefit requires the claimant to do a little a bit of work. So they falsely claim they are working. And also hide the existance of assets they hold.
I was speaking specifically about the situation in Israel. There is a widespread lie among the seculars (and among the Slifkins who parrot whatever 'they' say against chareidim) that chareidim are somehow stealing their money.
My point is, all Israeli citizens are entitled to the child stipends. All citizens are entitled to the socialized health care. Chareidim are not getting any more than anyone else when they get these benefits. No forms or hiding of benefits are applicable here. These benefits are automatic.
Many chareidim who are in kollel do get a miniscule stipend, usually no more than several hundred shekels. I was saying, I wonder if the seculars who levy all sorts of accusations against them actually know how little the chareidim receive.
Not directly related to anything specific, but worth noting that the Israeli political scene isn't nearly as obsessed with the alleged looming charedi economic catastrophe as Dr Slifkin is. It's an issue, but it's nowhere near being *the* issue. I watch a decent amount of Knesset plenum sessions and committee hearings. The issues on the agenda tend to be about violent crime in the Arab sector, Ben Gvir's sniping at the police commanders, settlers rampaging against Palestinians, Palestinians rampaging against settlers, the high cost of living, etc.
And of course the hottest issue right now is the judicial reform plan, which has Charedi support, but is in no way *their* particular issue. (It's being spearheaded by Yariv levin (Likud) and Simcha Rothman (Tziyonut Ha'datit). Not to mention that the opposition to the overhaul is being spearheaded by people who are way more terrified of people like Ben Gvir than Gafni.)
Here's a Knesset constitution committee hearing. At around 3 hours 46 minutes, the fun really starts. Very uncivilized behavior by some very un-charedi people.
And here's another 4 hours of wasted time on mutual recriminations about the chutzpa of the anti-Judicial reform protestors continuing their protests during a mini-war when Tzahal soldiers are risking their lives in Jenin, the chutzpa of the government's refusal to pause it's Judicial reform plans during a mini-war when Tzahal soldiers are risking their lives in Jenin, calls to kill as many terrorists as possible, recriminations from Yisrael Beyteynu that the government is actually soft on terror, and of course Arab MKs proclaiming that the occupation is the root of all evil. There's also minster Kari's merciless mocking of the opposition MK's who couldn't be bothered to show up to the very session which they instigated.
All of which is followed by some utterly futile no-confidence votes.
If I may interject regarding a different topic, I don't see why you had to go all sour grapes about the cheap wine and chocolate milk bags and petel that tastes like floor cleaner. You made a good point without that distasteful (תרתי משמע) comment. Unless you were just trying to be humorous. But boy oh boy, those guys weren't in the mood for humor.
" I don't see why you had to go all sour grapes about the cheap wine and chocolate milk bags and petel that tastes like floor cleaner. You made a good point without that distasteful (תרתי משמע) comment."
That is a good comment. I bet you that guy doesn't believe the Bais Hamikdash will ever be rebuilt or that we will do sacrifices again. For him the gay parades in Yerushalayim are a fulfillment of yemos hamashiach.
"This is akin to thinking that because the home healthcare market is growing very quickly, and continues attracting workers to the industry at a swift rate, it will continue to grow until it is too late and consumes 100% of the economy and absolutely everybody is working in home healthcare and we all starve."
The article you linked was very enlightening, but I would like to highlight one sentence which is especially revealing. "בפגישות שהיו לנו עם בכירים בממשלה הקודמת כדי לקדם תכניות על תעסוקת חרדים, הם הבהירו לנו שזה לא מעניין אותם ולא רלוונטי" . So those parties claim to worry much about a future with few working chareidim, but in the present they aren't willing to do anything at all to help chareidim work.
Natan is an economic retard. Money today is not backed by metal and not fiat (printed into existence).
Money is DEBT. Money is LOANED INTO EXISTENCE. If all debts were paid off, there would be no money.
When aggregate debt increases, the economy grows; when it is stable, it stagnates; and when debt decreases, the economy crashes. We are in the early stages of a deflationary bust.
Also, historically, deflation has been a much bigger problem than hyperinflation. We already got the hyperinflation. It's why stocks and housing are sky-high. Now the debt that propped it all up is collapsing.
As you also noted, people are not static automatons. They change and adopt due to changing circumstances, just not in the way malevolent retards like Slifkin want them to. The charedim have taken massive hits in recent decades. One of the biggest was the huge reduction in child allowances around 15 years ago. I'm sure if you looked into Natan's retarded output back then, he was predicting economic catastrophe for the charedim then, like now, for the same retarded reasons.
Who will do well in the coming deflationary collapse? The charedim, who are accustomed to spartan living. I predict non-profit museum directors and others like him won't do well.
"Also, historically, deflation has been a much bigger problem than hyperinflation. We already got the hyperinflation. It's why stocks and housing are sky-high. Now the debt that propped it all up is collapsing."
What on earth does this even mean? Can you provide some links?
"In this sophisticated yet readable book, Vox Day - one of the few economics writers to predict the current worldwide financial crisis - explains why it is likely to continue. Day shows that the policies being pursued in Europe, Asia, and the United States are very similar to Japan's failed policies of the past twenty years and, therefore, doomed to similar results. According to Day, the economic theories behind those policies are flawed and account for why most economists were unable to anticipate the recession or see that their expectations of an imminent recovery are incorrect. Day applies a different theory, the one he used to predict the current crisis, to show that the world is in the early stages of a massive economic contraction. Then he turns to the six scenarios presently envisioned by the world's leading economists and assesses which is most likely to unfold. As the title suggests, Day concludes that the most probable scenario is a Great Depression 2.0 that will be larger in scale and scope than that of the 1930s."
Given that he wrote this in 2009, and the economy recovered quite well quite soon afterward, there doesn't seem to be much reason to take him seriously.
Quite the learned expert. Without having read the book. Touche.
There were good times too during what were later labeled the Great Depression.
It hasn't recovered in quite the way you think. Keeping interest rates zero-bound for over a decade is not a sign of a healthy economy. It fosters fake jobs, as others here have pointed out.
I'm not claiming to be an expert. But if your source hasn't got a handle on reality, that's reason enough to rule it out. Again, he claimed- in 2009- that we were entering another great depression. That was plainly not borne out by reality.
"Between 1929 and 1932, worldwide gross domestic product (GDP) fell by an estimated 15%. By comparison, worldwide GDP fell by less than 1% from 2008 to 2009 during the Great Recession.[3] Some economies started to recover by the mid-1930s. However, in many countries,[specify] the negative effects of the Great Depression lasted until the beginning of World War II. Devastating effects were seen in both rich and poor countries with falling personal income, prices, tax revenues, and profits. International trade fell by more than 50%, unemployment in the U.S. rose to 23% and in some countries rose as high as 33%.[4]"
"It hasn't recovered in quite the way you think. Keeping interest rates zero-bound for over a decade is not a sign of a healthy economy. It fosters fake jobs, as others here have pointed out."
I think you're spouting a whole lot of mumbo jumbo which doesn't actually correspond to anything in the real world. And what are 'real' jobs anyhow?
You are literally judging a book by promotional material Vox Day might have had very little input on, if any. It's literally retarded. Clearly, retardation for some is a choice.
Ask Happy what real jobs are. He's commented on such.
I am obviously more familiar with the subject than you. I know what ABCT is and the basics of it.
In a CREDIT economy, DEFLATION of outstanding credit is catastrophic for an economy. Remember what I said about money being LOANED INTO EXISTENCE? No debt, no money. That's not good deflation.
The REASON the economy was transformed from, in essence, specie-based to credit-based, was because in a functioning economy with HONEST money, the NORMAL trend is modest price deflation, which is indeed good. Roughly the same amount of money is capable of purchasing an increasing supply of goods. But "they" didn't like that feature of the economy. We have a credit economy today, with "flexible" money.
Stable money and increasing productivity make for gradually decreasing prices for ALL goods and services over time. When have we ever experienced this during "good times?"
Price deflation is good. Credit deflation is beyond bad, in terms of how we experience.
WADR, I am very familiar with the subject, I briefly mentioned it in my book, and I even teach it (from an Misesian viewpoint) as part of some of my courses.
What happened is that I misunderstood what you wrote, and I thought you meant something else.
Rrkz seems very learned on many subjects btw, at this point I assume yes until he tells me otherwise. Just saying. (And I mostly mean that you can tell when someone actually knows something vs quick searches which we are all very good at;)
Clearly, you, Happy, Dovid whoever, in the inner depths of their brains lurks a spark of unbrainwashed uncultished neurons that believe at least some of what he writes may be valid, such that you lot need to expend time, effort, photoshopping whatever to 'rebut' it.
I thought I was always pretty open that I like a lot of what he says. I don't like when he's wrong and I try to point it out. As with you. But you never really get what I'm saying anyways because you're so busy with your agenda.
So clearly people are taking him seriously then - exactly my point to Shimshon.
But the way to hekp people realise is to rebut Slifkin's arguments with carefully constructed essays and sources. Correctly quoted. Not leitzonus and misquotes.
But Happy can't do that, because some of what Slifkin writes is absolutely correct. Failure to provide a descent education to children so they can learn a trade is completely contrary to traditional Judaism. A mass movement of learning, require others' support, relying on stealing benefits and fraud is contrary to traditional Judasim. What leitzonus they throw to deflect from the point.
Really test, you can't complain about my alleged failure of carefully constructed essays when 90% of your comments are delirious, disjointed, typo-ridden, off-topic ravings about minyan factories, stone-throwing, and sheitels.
"Failure to provide a descent education to children so they can learn a trade is completely contrary to traditional Judaism. "-Maybe if your parent gave you a good education, you would learn the difference between "decent" and "descent". Or perhaps your parents gave you a "descent" education rather than a decent one, such that your level of reasoning and communication descended precipitously.
Fortunately, kollel doesn't require stealing and benefits fraud, unlike highly-educated financial jobs, where the majority of such fraud originates. Slifkin is a kofer (as well as an ignoramus), as we have demonstrated many times, so his opinions about "traditional" Judaism are as worthless as if the pope tried to lecture us on halacha. However, if somebody like the commenter Avraham engaged me in conversation about that halacha, I would reciprocate and we could have a discussion.
This is a self-refuting comment. You're incessantly leaving comments on a blog to the effect of how said blog's contents are a bunch of stupidity, while simultaneously claiming that taking the time to weigh in on something proves that people take it seriously and know deep down that it has validity.
====
(Speaking only for myself, I think that blogs have a smidgen of influence. I comment on them for a combination of reasons, which include outrage at what I view as slanderous attacks on people I respect, outrage at unfair attacks on people even if I don't respect them, the thrill and enjoyment of a good debate, the opportunity to organize and clarify my own thoughts, and an inability to stop even when I know that my keyboard warrior-ing is ultimately a giant waste of time.)
As if you would respond to "carefully constructed essays and sources" any more than he does. No, retard, the way to deal with malevolence is vicious mockery. Slifkin is a pathological liar. Why should I treat what he says as worthy of respect?
Well presented, I am just wondering why you didn't post this on RJ itself, only saying there that no-one knows anything (not that I don't agree with that).
You can wait for him to move from Substack back to Blogspot. Then you will go from banned to resurrected, while I will go from resurrected back to banned. It's like the ashes of the parah adumah! Or, we are now paired in some bizarre way. The two of us can no longer coexist on RJ together.
I wonder what it would take for me to get banned a second time. I try, really. Happy if you had only called him a pathological liar instead of accurately quoting him, you would still be commenting there today. Weird but true.
Bonus thread to address comments from RJ:
"Yekutiel Weiss
Constant economic propping up of Chareidi society will cause diversion of essential funds for essential public services for the Chareidim. So the state doesn't collapse and the Chareidim starve it still causes damage to the general public and unfairly shifts the tax burden to rest or the general public. WHY? אם לא עכשיו אימתי?!."
Uh, ok, I'm glad we are agreeing that the apocalyptic doom-mongering is a fantasy. "Diversion of essential public services to the chareidim"-If they are essential, they are essential for the chareidim as well, and it's not a diversion. "Unfairly"? There is nothing unfair about it. You set up a socialist system, you reap both the benefits and downsides of such a system. What's unfair is forcing Shomrei Torah u'Mitzvos (both of the chareidi and non-chareidi type) to pay for all sorts of useless courses in universities that will never translate into any material economic gain, including tons and tons of kefira. "אם לא עכשיו אימתי"- what exactly does he propose we do עכשיו? Chareidim are the ones setting up jobs programs for chareidim, certainly people like him are not doing it. See the last link in my post.
This interesting set of comments https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-problem-of-time/comment/18078662:
"Big Mouth
Jul 3
The correlation between education and income is just that, a correlation. The real causal relationship is that between delaying instant gratification and income, as seen in the working Chevra in Lakewood and 5 towns. Lots of financial success with minimal advanced education. Only clueless academics still beleive in education as the sole means to earn an income.
******
Jul 4
Liked by Natan Slifkin
You are confusing 'advanced education' with 'education' in the same paragrapg You cannot compare the education that was given to the typical 'working chevra in Lakewood and the 5 towns' to the situation in Israel.
Big Mouth
3 hr ago
I have a pircha from American chasidim who are very successful if they choose to be.
Natan Slifkin
34 min ago
Author
In many cases - more than people realize - this is because they are skilled at extracting money from non-Jews.
Big Mouth
30 min ago
You are not speaking from any real experience or insight, just repeating Modox dogma (a dogma i grew up with as well.) Overwhelming majority of successful chassidish businesses are just that - successful businesses."
Obviously Big Mouth is right here. But what's interesting that when Natan is confronted with a community where people actually do work and do well for themselves, his reaction is not "gee, this is wonderful, I hope chareidim emulate them". When confronted with successful chasidic businesses, his reaction is a pure, hateful, classic anti-semitic trope of "they are skilled at extracting money from non-Jews". He must have been reading a lot of Protocols of the Elders of Zion lately. In addition, his description would include most of the financial professions and hitech that Israeli secularists engage, which is mostly extractive in the sense he is talking about. You can't do anti-semitic tropes לחצאין.
He responds to Dovid https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-problem-of-time/comment/18200784-
"Natan Slifkin
I receive emails from people in New York telling me about all kinds of schemes to defraud both individuals and government. Do you know about the Covid scheme that got 3 billion dollars?"
Wow, this really takes the cake. How does he know that chassidim are only successful through fraud and "extracting money from non-Jews"? Because he RECIEVED EMAILS FROM PEOPLE IN NEW YORK telling him about it. What amazing inestigative skills! But he didn't really need all those emails. He could have come to Irrationalist Modoxism and read hundreds of comments from "test" alleging that the entire chareidi community is based on theft and fraud! QED!
But I can do even better. I don't need emails from people in New York or comments from "test". I just typed "fraud" into google and it immediately returned millions of examples of fraud in the highly educated secularist society. So clearly every society in every country in the world is based on fraud and theft. QED!
Classic yeshivish. "But the goyim do it too"
But isn't the point of chareidim to be holier than the rest? Chored al d'var hashem and all that? The torah team, as Dovid claims. The closest to Hashem. Walking talking kiddush hashem?
Not sure how stealing via a covid scheme 'stims' with all of that. We have come a long way since the Chofetz Chaim supposedly tore up a mail stamp to comply with government regulations. And reb whoever trudged through the snow to return a kopeck to some Russian goy.
Under the imaginary cloak of piety, chareidim are no different to everyone else. You just admitted it
Classic moron. I never said or implied "the goyim do it to". My point was that "I receive emails from people in New York telling me about all kinds of schemes" is a really stupid way to draw conclusions about a community.
No. You said a lot more than that. But as usual, you can't deal with the 'etzem nekudah".
" So clearly every society in every country in the world is based on fraud and theft. QED"
Does that statement of yours include chareidim? Yes or no. I assume yes, because you brought it to show how Slifkin could have used that to demonstrate that chareidim commit fraud, with no need for emails from NY.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
(ב"ה that wikipedia is usually useful in formal logic)
He responds again to Dovid https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-problem-of-time/comment/18223699
"
Natan Slifkin
3 hr ago
·
edited 2 hr ago
Author
There are scammers in every community. The difference with chassidim is that it is officially acceptable in much of the community (because it's "only" against goyim, and the goyim are antisemites/a lower form of life), and implemented against the government through the coordination of many institutions. So it happens on a much larger scale. The NYT exposes were just the tip of the iceberg."
Ah, more antisemitic tropes! Yidden tend to steal from goyim because they consider them a "lower form of life".
I am glad he is acknowledging that there are scams in every community, but he is incredibly unaware that they are no different than Jewish scams, and are implemented through the coordination of many institutions as well, and on a much larger scale. Clearly he never opened up a single newspaper or news website. And before test starts with his verbal excrement, no, that does not justify Jewish greed and theft.
Also, I happen to know that all Zionists are fraudster and thieves. Source- some people at the Satmar shtieble told me.
"Yidden tend to steal from goyim because they consider them a "lower form of life". "
No, they are more sophisticated than that. They belive gezel akum is muttar. Chareidim are good at finding kullos when it suits them, I am sure some rabbi somwhere said staeling from the Tzar is permitted. Especially as it funds most of their torah centered lifestyle, the bits the gevirim cannot or will not fill. You can justify anything on the basis that 'how else can we manage, do we need to starve?'.
Uh, no they don't. You have to be a pretty big am ha'aretz to think gezel akkum is muttar, which I'm sure describes yourself, but why project on others?
"I am sure some rabbi somwhere said staeling from the Tzar is permitted."- A,the old "I am sure some rabbi said"! A very rigorous "shpitz yeshivish" method of establishing facts. Again, I believe this is your epistemology, but why project on other?
Yes, to say that chassidim are extracting money from non-jews, is full fledged anti-semitism. And then he gets gets insulted when I compare him to David Duke.
But bigmouth is wrong, he should not call all modox anti semites. Natan speaks for himself, and only himself.
"There is nothing unfair about it. You set up a socialist system, you reap both the benefits and downsides of such a system. "
Strangely, when benefits are cut, we don’t hear that logic. We hear 'you are starving our children'. If you want to rely on the socialist system as a defence, you have to accept it when the same system cuts benefits, no?
Sure, if you compare *starving* to "this group is getting more money than me", then you are right. But you would have to be a pretty depraved type of person to make such a comparison. But I would never underestimate you, test!
Not sure what you are trying to say. It's the chareidim, through their MKs, that say 'you are starving our children' when benefits are cut
Excellent post! Especially that quote about economists and astrology. I feel that economic theory is the modern manifestation of the concept of מזל.
However one understands the mechanics of אין מזל לישראל, the concept behind it is that the אומות העולם, who are compared to the sun, have a compulsion to try to predict and control their future, even as they are proven wrong time after time, whereas ישראל is למעלה מן השמש and compared to the לבנה in that they realize that their future can vary greatly from the current apparent trajectory.
In general, I feel that Slifkin, Tzarich Iyun and the like are only hurting their cause by obsessing over the future, as no intelligent frum jew will take that seriously. If they would focus solely on the present, such as the supposed massive Chilul Hashem caused by the chareidi parties' supposed obsession with money, perhaps they would be taken more seriously. But perhaps they don't really believe that the chareidi parties are that obsessed with money, and therefore must redirect the conversation?
If they were so obsessed with money, they would be telling their constituents to get jobs and education and join the army en masse. So like you say, that idea makes 0 sense.
Also, I like how you tied that into the sun and the moon, very interesting. הַגִּ֣ידוּ וְהַגִּ֔ישׁוּ אַ֥ף יִֽוָּעֲצ֖וּ יַחְדָּ֑ו מִ֣י הִשְׁמִ֩יעַ֩ זֹ֨את מִקֶּ֜דֶם מֵאָ֣ז הִגִּידָ֗הּ הֲל֨וֹא אֲנִ֤י יְהֹוָה֙ וְאֵֽין־ע֤וֹד אֱלֹהִים֙ מִבַּלְעָדַ֔י אֵל־צַדִּ֣יק וּמוֹשִׁ֔יעַ אַ֖יִן זוּלָתִֽי׃
"intelligent frum jew will take that seriously"
Classic cult sign. Anybody that dares to question the cult is written off as not intelligent.
Are you referring to yourself? You haven't offered any response to any of the simple points brought out on this post and it's comments.
I don't agree with Slifkin here. It might surprise you but in the world of grown ups (not the overgrown bochurim that populate yeshivah land masquerading as adults but with the maturity level of bochurim, see how mamy married men with children run after kigel and cholunt just like when they were bochurim) you can agree with some things people say and disagree with others. You can also criticise leitzonus, misquotes and faulty arguments without that meaning you agree with the target of the mockery.
So to be clear I guess you agree with happy and myself. You just don't agree with calling the other side of a debate unintelligent. (But you do agree with calling them "overgrown bochurim that populate yeshivah land masquerading as adults but with the maturity level of bochurim etc".)
"see how mamy married men with children run after kigel and cholunt just like when they were bochurim"
You should see them at the Mikveh! Am I right Testy?
It's just propaganda to spread hate against chareidim and Slifkin and co falling for it, Hashem yishmor
Hilarious!
Well said!
One can add, that thousands of Chareidim already do work. The seculars (and the Slifkins who follow in their ways) bemoan the fact that we don't work. They fail to note that many many do work. Yes, even though most do not have the secular education that they want us to have, many do find ways to earn income. In very many Chareidi families, once the family gets large, additional sources of income are needed. Not only are they needed, they are found as well!! This is true where I live in Israel, and it is true even more so in the US where I grew up.
I personally have many family members who received a lets call it 'a less than stellar secular education' when young. These are almost all working today. Some struggle, and some are doing well. In Israel, it is the same thing. Even with their education, many still find ways to earn income!
When 'they' complain with their doom and gloom scenarios, and demand that Chareidim enter the workforce, what they really mean, is that the Chareidim have a full secular education, and become more like them in all ways. In other words, to stop being Chareidi. That is really what they want.
When 'they' complain about chareidim stealing their money by taking benefits, I wonder how many of them actually know how little the Chareid gets in benefits more than anyone else? (Hint: once child stipends and socialized medicine are removed from the picture because all citizens get them, the answer is very little!) When they complain about kolel students getting money, do they actually know what a kolel salary is? Probably not!
Let us give an example. The Mirrer Yeshivah in Jerusalem pumps millions of shekels into the Israeli economy. Yes, millions! (I am pretty sure it pumps far more into the economy than Slifkin's museum.) There are a few thousand students, many of them from foreign countries. Most of them rent a place to sleep. The Yeshivah cooks thousands of meals a day for these students. That means food for thousands of meal is purchased. Staff is paid to cook the meals. There are dozens of local businesses that cater almost exclusively to these students. More money pumped into the economy. Because of the Yeshivah, thousands of airline tickets are purchased in a single year. More money pumped into the economy.
The point is not that they take benefits. The point is they lie to do so, and complete forms fraudlantly. In the UK, every benefit requires the claimant to do a little a bit of work. So they falsely claim they are working. And also hide the existance of assets they hold.
I was speaking specifically about the situation in Israel. There is a widespread lie among the seculars (and among the Slifkins who parrot whatever 'they' say against chareidim) that chareidim are somehow stealing their money.
My point is, all Israeli citizens are entitled to the child stipends. All citizens are entitled to the socialized health care. Chareidim are not getting any more than anyone else when they get these benefits. No forms or hiding of benefits are applicable here. These benefits are automatic.
Many chareidim who are in kollel do get a miniscule stipend, usually no more than several hundred shekels. I was saying, I wonder if the seculars who levy all sorts of accusations against them actually know how little the chareidim receive.
The point is not 'stealing'. The point is benefits are meant to be a fail-safe. Not to fund a lifestyle and deliberately chosen poverty.
And as an aside, plenty of stealing goes on as well. Plenty of kollel people are quite blatantly working part time whilst pretending to be in kollel.
Perhaps 'favouritism' or political 'extortion'is better than 'stealing', which has a precise narrowxtecn8cal definition.
Not directly related to anything specific, but worth noting that the Israeli political scene isn't nearly as obsessed with the alleged looming charedi economic catastrophe as Dr Slifkin is. It's an issue, but it's nowhere near being *the* issue. I watch a decent amount of Knesset plenum sessions and committee hearings. The issues on the agenda tend to be about violent crime in the Arab sector, Ben Gvir's sniping at the police commanders, settlers rampaging against Palestinians, Palestinians rampaging against settlers, the high cost of living, etc.
And of course the hottest issue right now is the judicial reform plan, which has Charedi support, but is in no way *their* particular issue. (It's being spearheaded by Yariv levin (Likud) and Simcha Rothman (Tziyonut Ha'datit). Not to mention that the opposition to the overhaul is being spearheaded by people who are way more terrified of people like Ben Gvir than Gafni.)
Here's a Knesset constitution committee hearing. At around 3 hours 46 minutes, the fun really starts. Very uncivilized behavior by some very un-charedi people.
https://www.knesset.tv/committees/theconstitutionlaw_justicecommittee/video/57472/
And here's another 4 hours of wasted time on mutual recriminations about the chutzpa of the anti-Judicial reform protestors continuing their protests during a mini-war when Tzahal soldiers are risking their lives in Jenin, the chutzpa of the government's refusal to pause it's Judicial reform plans during a mini-war when Tzahal soldiers are risking their lives in Jenin, calls to kill as many terrorists as possible, recriminations from Yisrael Beyteynu that the government is actually soft on terror, and of course Arab MKs proclaiming that the occupation is the root of all evil. There's also minster Kari's merciless mocking of the opposition MK's who couldn't be bothered to show up to the very session which they instigated.
All of which is followed by some utterly futile no-confidence votes.
https://www.knesset.tv/parliament/programs/57436/
If I may interject regarding a different topic, I don't see why you had to go all sour grapes about the cheap wine and chocolate milk bags and petel that tastes like floor cleaner. You made a good point without that distasteful (תרתי משמע) comment. Unless you were just trying to be humorous. But boy oh boy, those guys weren't in the mood for humor.
" I don't see why you had to go all sour grapes about the cheap wine and chocolate milk bags and petel that tastes like floor cleaner. You made a good point without that distasteful (תרתי משמע) comment."
Better?
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/pure-gold/comment/18378158
That is a good comment. I bet you that guy doesn't believe the Bais Hamikdash will ever be rebuilt or that we will do sacrifices again. For him the gay parades in Yerushalayim are a fulfillment of yemos hamashiach.
I have no idea what they're in a tizzy about. Honestly. You'd think I called for a boycott of the country or something.
Lol. Those clips are a riot🤣🤣. No wonder the country is so dysfunctional!
There's plenty more where that came from...
https://www.kikar.co.il/political-news/rxc2n2
Can't make this stuff up.
https://www.kikar.co.il/political-news/rwy2qv
To each his own.
"This is akin to thinking that because the home healthcare market is growing very quickly, and continues attracting workers to the industry at a swift rate, it will continue to grow until it is too late and consumes 100% of the economy and absolutely everybody is working in home healthcare and we all starve."
I always get a kick out headlines like this: https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/4070356-americans-are-older-than-ever/ Well, I never!
The article you linked was very enlightening, but I would like to highlight one sentence which is especially revealing. "בפגישות שהיו לנו עם בכירים בממשלה הקודמת כדי לקדם תכניות על תעסוקת חרדים, הם הבהירו לנו שזה לא מעניין אותם ולא רלוונטי" . So those parties claim to worry much about a future with few working chareidim, but in the present they aren't willing to do anything at all to help chareidim work.
Much better!
Thank you! I try to make everybody happy!
If old-earthers refuse to believe in catastrophism, why must we?
Natan is an economic retard. Money today is not backed by metal and not fiat (printed into existence).
Money is DEBT. Money is LOANED INTO EXISTENCE. If all debts were paid off, there would be no money.
When aggregate debt increases, the economy grows; when it is stable, it stagnates; and when debt decreases, the economy crashes. We are in the early stages of a deflationary bust.
Also, historically, deflation has been a much bigger problem than hyperinflation. We already got the hyperinflation. It's why stocks and housing are sky-high. Now the debt that propped it all up is collapsing.
As you also noted, people are not static automatons. They change and adopt due to changing circumstances, just not in the way malevolent retards like Slifkin want them to. The charedim have taken massive hits in recent decades. One of the biggest was the huge reduction in child allowances around 15 years ago. I'm sure if you looked into Natan's retarded output back then, he was predicting economic catastrophe for the charedim then, like now, for the same retarded reasons.
Who will do well in the coming deflationary collapse? The charedim, who are accustomed to spartan living. I predict non-profit museum directors and others like him won't do well.
"Also, historically, deflation has been a much bigger problem than hyperinflation. We already got the hyperinflation. It's why stocks and housing are sky-high. Now the debt that propped it all up is collapsing."
What on earth does this even mean? Can you provide some links?
You could start with the Mises Institute. They have a large library of free material online.
For one specific work, not of the Mises Institute, Vox Day's The Return of the Great Depression is an excellent resource.
"Vox Day's The Return of the Great Depression is an excellent resource."
This is from the description of the book on Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/Return-Great-Depression-Vox-Day/dp/1935071181
"In this sophisticated yet readable book, Vox Day - one of the few economics writers to predict the current worldwide financial crisis - explains why it is likely to continue. Day shows that the policies being pursued in Europe, Asia, and the United States are very similar to Japan's failed policies of the past twenty years and, therefore, doomed to similar results. According to Day, the economic theories behind those policies are flawed and account for why most economists were unable to anticipate the recession or see that their expectations of an imminent recovery are incorrect. Day applies a different theory, the one he used to predict the current crisis, to show that the world is in the early stages of a massive economic contraction. Then he turns to the six scenarios presently envisioned by the world's leading economists and assesses which is most likely to unfold. As the title suggests, Day concludes that the most probable scenario is a Great Depression 2.0 that will be larger in scale and scope than that of the 1930s."
Given that he wrote this in 2009, and the economy recovered quite well quite soon afterward, there doesn't seem to be much reason to take him seriously.
Quite the learned expert. Without having read the book. Touche.
There were good times too during what were later labeled the Great Depression.
It hasn't recovered in quite the way you think. Keeping interest rates zero-bound for over a decade is not a sign of a healthy economy. It fosters fake jobs, as others here have pointed out.
"Quite the learned expert."
I'm not claiming to be an expert. But if your source hasn't got a handle on reality, that's reason enough to rule it out. Again, he claimed- in 2009- that we were entering another great depression. That was plainly not borne out by reality.
"Without having read the book. Touche."
I haven't read deeply on gender studies either. Doesn't mean I need to take it seriously. It's plainly bunk. Ditto for cockamamie economic theories. There's clearly a glut of them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Schools_of_economic_thought
"There were good times too during what were later labeled the Great Depression."
Could be. But what made it the great depression *in the first place* never happened post 2009.
From Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression
"Between 1929 and 1932, worldwide gross domestic product (GDP) fell by an estimated 15%. By comparison, worldwide GDP fell by less than 1% from 2008 to 2009 during the Great Recession.[3] Some economies started to recover by the mid-1930s. However, in many countries,[specify] the negative effects of the Great Depression lasted until the beginning of World War II. Devastating effects were seen in both rich and poor countries with falling personal income, prices, tax revenues, and profits. International trade fell by more than 50%, unemployment in the U.S. rose to 23% and in some countries rose as high as 33%.[4]"
"It hasn't recovered in quite the way you think. Keeping interest rates zero-bound for over a decade is not a sign of a healthy economy. It fosters fake jobs, as others here have pointed out."
I think you're spouting a whole lot of mumbo jumbo which doesn't actually correspond to anything in the real world. And what are 'real' jobs anyhow?
You are literally judging a book by promotional material Vox Day might have had very little input on, if any. It's literally retarded. Clearly, retardation for some is a choice.
Ask Happy what real jobs are. He's commented on such.
I suggest that you read Human Action, by Ludwig Mises
IMO the best book on economics
Then read Hayek
Then read Rothbard on the Great Depression (you can ignore what he wrote on Israel)
Then read some articles on the current situation (the last 20 years) in the Mises Inst.
I hope that will cure you of the wikipedia bias on economics
I am obviously more familiar with the subject than you. I know what ABCT is and the basics of it.
In a CREDIT economy, DEFLATION of outstanding credit is catastrophic for an economy. Remember what I said about money being LOANED INTO EXISTENCE? No debt, no money. That's not good deflation.
The REASON the economy was transformed from, in essence, specie-based to credit-based, was because in a functioning economy with HONEST money, the NORMAL trend is modest price deflation, which is indeed good. Roughly the same amount of money is capable of purchasing an increasing supply of goods. But "they" didn't like that feature of the economy. We have a credit economy today, with "flexible" money.
Stable money and increasing productivity make for gradually decreasing prices for ALL goods and services over time. When have we ever experienced this during "good times?"
Price deflation is good. Credit deflation is beyond bad, in terms of how we experience.
WADR, I am very familiar with the subject, I briefly mentioned it in my book, and I even teach it (from an Misesian viewpoint) as part of some of my courses.
What happened is that I misunderstood what you wrote, and I thought you meant something else.
I apologize for wasting your time.
Which book is that?
Thanks for the clarification. I did not know you are learned in the subject.
Rrkz seems very learned on many subjects btw, at this point I assume yes until he tells me otherwise. Just saying. (And I mostly mean that you can tell when someone actually knows something vs quick searches which we are all very good at;)
https://books.google.com/books/about/%D7%9B%D7%AA%D7%A8_%D7%9E%D7%97%D7%A7%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%91%D7%9B%D7%9C%D7%9B%D7%9C%D7%94_%D7%95%D7%9E%D7%A9.html?id=mPhRnQAACAAJ
Or maybe you mean ABCT
https://mises.org/wire/austrian-business-cycle-theory-explained
The Mises Institute actually wrote and explained the opposite
https://mises.org/library/deflating-deflation-myth
https://mises.org/wire/deflation-always-good-economy
https://mises.org/wire/why-price-deflation-always-good-news
Natan's father in law is very wealthy
Explains many things. Why does anyone take him seriously then?
Excellent question.
In particular, why do you and this blog bother?
Clearly, you, Happy, Dovid whoever, in the inner depths of their brains lurks a spark of unbrainwashed uncultished neurons that believe at least some of what he writes may be valid, such that you lot need to expend time, effort, photoshopping whatever to 'rebut' it.
I thought I was always pretty open that I like a lot of what he says. I don't like when he's wrong and I try to point it out. As with you. But you never really get what I'm saying anyways because you're so busy with your agenda.
"In particular, why do you and this blog bother?"
The intent is to help people realize.
So clearly people are taking him seriously then - exactly my point to Shimshon.
But the way to hekp people realise is to rebut Slifkin's arguments with carefully constructed essays and sources. Correctly quoted. Not leitzonus and misquotes.
But Happy can't do that, because some of what Slifkin writes is absolutely correct. Failure to provide a descent education to children so they can learn a trade is completely contrary to traditional Judaism. A mass movement of learning, require others' support, relying on stealing benefits and fraud is contrary to traditional Judasim. What leitzonus they throw to deflect from the point.
Really test, you can't complain about my alleged failure of carefully constructed essays when 90% of your comments are delirious, disjointed, typo-ridden, off-topic ravings about minyan factories, stone-throwing, and sheitels.
"Failure to provide a descent education to children so they can learn a trade is completely contrary to traditional Judaism. "-Maybe if your parent gave you a good education, you would learn the difference between "decent" and "descent". Or perhaps your parents gave you a "descent" education rather than a decent one, such that your level of reasoning and communication descended precipitously.
Fortunately, kollel doesn't require stealing and benefits fraud, unlike highly-educated financial jobs, where the majority of such fraud originates. Slifkin is a kofer (as well as an ignoramus), as we have demonstrated many times, so his opinions about "traditional" Judaism are as worthless as if the pope tried to lecture us on halacha. However, if somebody like the commenter Avraham engaged me in conversation about that halacha, I would reciprocate and we could have a discussion.
This is a self-refuting comment. You're incessantly leaving comments on a blog to the effect of how said blog's contents are a bunch of stupidity, while simultaneously claiming that taking the time to weigh in on something proves that people take it seriously and know deep down that it has validity.
====
(Speaking only for myself, I think that blogs have a smidgen of influence. I comment on them for a combination of reasons, which include outrage at what I view as slanderous attacks on people I respect, outrage at unfair attacks on people even if I don't respect them, the thrill and enjoyment of a good debate, the opportunity to organize and clarify my own thoughts, and an inability to stop even when I know that my keyboard warrior-ing is ultimately a giant waste of time.)
As if you would respond to "carefully constructed essays and sources" any more than he does. No, retard, the way to deal with malevolence is vicious mockery. Slifkin is a pathological liar. Why should I treat what he says as worthy of respect?
https://fee.org/resources/the-pretense-of-knowledge/
Well presented, I am just wondering why you didn't post this on RJ itself, only saying there that no-one knows anything (not that I don't agree with that).
Haha, I was banned last week!
Guess that's a good reason.
You can wait for him to move from Substack back to Blogspot. Then you will go from banned to resurrected, while I will go from resurrected back to banned. It's like the ashes of the parah adumah! Or, we are now paired in some bizarre way. The two of us can no longer coexist on RJ together.
I wonder what it would take for me to get banned a second time. I try, really. Happy if you had only called him a pathological liar instead of accurately quoting him, you would still be commenting there today. Weird but true.