Yep. Leitzonus always wins. I don't deny that. In the eyes of the hamon am and the majority of average intelligence. Doesn't the ramchal refer to it as an oiled shield or something.
Which is why chazal stress so often how horrible it is and how much to keep away from it. But presumably all those from the dawn of time that warn against leitzonus are not from our mesorah
But those of us who have an intimate connection and understanding of HKBH having studied in depth the rishonim and acharonim on the topic (not just those who believe it means shockeling a million times a minute and a virtue signalling shemonah esrei longer than the chap sitting next to them, but nonetheless happy to roll in late every morning) know the truth. The emperor has no clothes and in the majority of cases its all chitzonious.
" intimate connection and understanding of HKBH having studied in depth the rishonim and acharonim on the topic"
-says the guy who regularly or exclusively attends the 10:00 minyan, and for the years in kollel spent the majority of time hanging out in the coffee room, which is reflected in his comments that display excessive familiarity with those aspects of chareidi life almost to the exclusion of everything else (well, ok, he also obviously gazes at women alot, from his many comments about sheitels). You are beyond parody. Would you like to write for us?
and studying in depth is just scholastic, hardly the point, as I said earlier, " The non-chareidi knows a ton of shitos, but has no idea what these shitos mean. The chareidi knows maybe just one shita, maybe two (because they are busy learning Hashem’s word), but understands it deeply, this one more deeply than the next. Because after all the dust settles, Olam Haba/gan eden/yemos hamashiach/bechira/ethics/whatever are all about being close to HKBH, a simple idea they are intimate with."
You told me yourself the charedi doesn't know any shittos. In fact, their view of olam haboh has probably not moved on since kindergarten. How can it, from a few daf noshim nezikin? And learning that sort of stuff is frowned upon anyway.
They ape each other, learn yeshivish behavious from each other, walk the walk and talk the talk. All chitzoniyous. A good modox person from merkaz harav will know much more.
NO I said he knows one, maybe two shitos. His view of Olam Haba moves tremendously since kindergarten - qualitatively. (And by the way, you hit the nail on the head - even a child in kindergarten can understand, if only to his level, the basic tenets of Judaism, and as he grows up he appreciated more and more. This has been quipped by many, including R' Yisroel Salanter.)
You don't know what you are talking about, and are merely revealing your own ignorance about the astounding intellectual level of talmidei chachamim, in all areas of Jewish thought. As Happy retorted , you are projecting your own madreiga and that of the people that you hung out with...
Great post! Can't say I agree totally 100% but you definitely gave us a lot to think about!
One thing that stands out to me is your statement that our Mesorah from all the Rishonim is that the world was created in no time. I think you would agree that the pashut pshat is 6 days, not no time, right? Isn't that how you were taught? It would be a tremendous chiddush to assume these cryptic statements from the Rambam and Ramban are the consensus of all the Rishonim. The Ramban doesn't say it explicitly at all, and I doubt he means that. And as for the Rambam, the Abarbanel disputes him with very strong leshonos. I don't see how you can say this very controversial idea is our mesorah.
Thanks! Take everything I say with a grain of salt. This is just my opinion, I'd love to hear feedback! I use words in the post like "according to our Mesorah"; I mean what understand it to be... Use my words as a starting point, and if I'm wrong in some areas, we'll grow together.
That being said, I think (now) that I am correct:)
There's no way to teach a child these kinds of concepts. I was taught it as six days. Meanwhile, it isn't false - a physical day is nothing more than the physical manifestation of this more refined day, just as all physical things are. Your hand isn't the true hand; your hand is the physical manifestation of a more conceptual hand. (I hope my English isn't making this sound silly...)
Let me say this better: I was taught that creation took place in six days - with no explanation whatsoever of what days are! By the time I learned Chumash, I already knew what days were. I was then taught about these days and I, using my methods of interpretation, deciphered them as physical days. If I am correct, that these days were actually conceptual, I wasn't taught wrong. Capiche?
Great post, I love it, especially the author’s thoughtful and respectful tone! He sets a fantastic example of how to be marbeh kevod shamayim and treat others with dignity and respect. Reading some of his responses in the comments to the last post brought me to tears. I couldn’t help thinking of what Rav Aharon Lichtenstein zatzal wrote years ago, “Shall we never go sledding together again?” I’d previously thought that the creepy, very clearly trauma-ridden lunatic in the comments section is certainly a kofer and a unquestionable “mevazeh talmid chacham” (see Shaarei Teshuvah of Rabeinu Yonah 3:147ff). But no, he’s a human being too. He deserves sincere and straightforward answers to his queries. This got me thinking. Maybe my community is not so perfect after all? Maybe people do fress too much at kiddushes? Maybe minyan factories are not the kiddush Hashem I’d thought them to be? Maybe the people in Ger are violent criminals? Maybe I should start thinking about random halachically permissible women’s shaitels? Maybe Mishpacha and Ami do have relevance? Maybe I should enroll in college, and enroll my kids in public school so they could get a proper education (or at least know proper English)? Maybe my community is a bunch of hypocritical thieves and child molesters? Maybe my community is guilty of gadoltry and anti-LGBT bigotry? Maybe we are closeminded fanatics who have no concept of the basics of Judaism? Maybe certified enemies of the chareidi community are not so certified after all (e.g., Harav Hagaon R' Nosson Slifkin shlita)? Maybe the bachurim in Mir and Ponovez are unruly delinquents, not unlike the Black and Brown youth in disadvantaged communities? Maybe everyone in the chareidi beis medrish is a bunch of classic yeshivish losers who don’t know what they’re talking about? Maybe we’re just a bunch of walking chillul Hashems? Maybe our leaders are not so great after all? Maybe we need to quit the elitist nonsense, thinking we’re holier than the Modern Orthodox? Does not watching TV, limiting internet, generally being shomer negiah, make us so much better than the Modern Orthodox? Is putting great effort into mitzvos, trying to get everything halachically accurate really something that makes us better Jews? Could it be that the people I’d thought were so good are really so bad, and the people I’d thought were so bad are really so good? Could it be that the Torah itself might actually not be so moral?
More to the topic, maybe I’m not a true maamin? Maybe all my rebbeim in yeshivah who never talked about these things were wrong? Maybe all the chareidi gedolim who don’t talk about these things are wrong? Maybe the Rema (YD 246:4) who writes, “One should only study Mikra, Mishna, Gemara, and the poskim which flow from them, and with this one will acquire this world and the next, but not with the study of other wisdoms [i.e., philosophy],” was wrong? Maybe Shiltei Gibborim in Avodah Zarah 5b n. 1, Chavos Yair 124 and 210, and others who write that one shouldn’t engage in chakirah, rather believe in Hashem on a simple level, were wrong (see also Rambam Hilchos Avodah Zarah 2:3)? Don’t get me wrong. I’m not ready to jump ship just yet. But I really appreciate the tone of this author. We need to be more openminded and tolerant of others. Let’s all try to be friends. Let’s respect the fact that there are real issues that need to be confronted. We need to take a hard look at our community’s bein adam lechaveiro vis-à-vis other communities. We need to confront challenges to our faith. We need to re-examine assumptions about those who were kicked out of our community, like Harav Slifkin shlita. Harav Slifkin is not a freak of nature into stuffed animals. No, he’s a sincere mavakeish Hashem and amal batorah, just like you and me. I’d venture to say he’s one of Judaism's finest rabbinic thinkers, maybe even a “gadol beyisrael.” We need to be more broadminded and respectful to people who might just have a different derech than us. We need to focus on our own weaknesses and limitations and probe issues which challange the chareidi narrative. This will only make us stronger and more successful and it's critical for our community’s survival and success.
Wow, powerful comment! I don't quite appreciate the attitude towards Dovid, who is sincere and really trying to be marbeh kvod shomayim - whether or not you agree with his mehalech - but there are some very powerful points in your long string of sarcasm.
(Unlike Mecharker Shlit’a, I initially interpreted this comment as a sincere one, not as derisive (too long to be a joke and I'm usually somewhat naïve to a fault when reading people although I was concerned at how far this was being taken, - EDIT or maybe the compliment in the beginning went to my head and I didn't want to read it as a mussar? - and Mecharker's pshat sounds better...) and I’m responding in kind.)
Well… I appreciate the accolades and that you were touched, and I loved how you began the post. But I hope I didn’t give the impression that I am actually okay with Bizui Talmid Chachamim. This Rabbeinu Yonah will be a center in an upcoming post. There is nothing, NOTHING more important to me than a real Talmid Chacham! (who are usually Chareidi.) Because that is what is important to Hashem. It bothers me tremendously when they are put down because then Hashem is put down (hence these posts…) But I feel we will get further being somewhat respectful as you beautifully and meaningfully point out (of course only up to a point; we haven’t gotten close to that yet).
As far as Test goes (I assume you are referring to him), I don’t know what his background is but if he’s commenting on a yeshivishe blog, he’s still in my books! As you said, people that aren’t in your bubble deserve respect too. They have a world view that may be coming from Rabbeim of theirs and who can judge anyone else? He surely doesn't think he is a lunatic! Only us, who are outsiders to him may get that impression. (Besides, how fun would this blog be without him?)
If Mecharker is right, your post is more powerful and point taken, but I don't find test to be such a threat. He sounds like he is angry at the system and we all see it. But in my actual life I know people in much worse situations than he and I know them very well, enough not too judge them. And I've seen some of them turn around as time went on.
Dovid can be commended for his style of approach. There is merit in treating adversaries with respect. But such sentiments are only voluntary, they are not a necessity. The more in-your-face , cynical approach is a valid method and there is nothing wrong or immature with it.
That is in general. But with regard to Slifkin I think the gloves-off approach is actually necessary. For two reasons: 1) He treats everyone maliciously and sardonically, besmirching and broad swiping. One cannot take the high road when dealing with a low-blow opponent. 2) When dealing with matters of such vital importance- the very underpinnings of our faith- we cannot leave room for someone to err that we are open to Slifkin's Apikursus. We must be full-throated and unequivocal, and treat people like Slifkin with (at least subtle) derision.
When dealing with a low-blow opponent or someone arguing in bad faith, the appropriate response is to usually either take the high road, or ignore them. Frankly, the cynical approach I see used on this blog is off-putting and does no good to the name of Judaism, let alone Charedism. Scoring low points might be effective for politics, but not for the religion of truth. It might momentarily feel good and like "you're winning", but that's just your ego. You might convince yourself that Hashem is happy with the pettiness employed here, but you're just fooling yourself. I won't say mockery never has a place . It is clearly used at certain times in Tanach and in the Gemara. But there's a reason it's not off-putting there. With our Sages, it is not their modus operandi, and when they do use it, their class and purity of intent shines through. Unfortunately, I don't believe that to be the case on this blog. Just my observation.
This is an interesting perspective. Many people have told us that they get a lot of chizuk from our approach. Natan is skilled at making the greatest falsehoods and corruptions of the Torah sound true and righteous, and after a good deal of research, we have found our method is the most effective response (that doesn't simply ignore him). There is a mehalech of ענה כסיל כאולתו.
You may be correct logically and morally, but there's a statistic indicating otherwise. When Rabbi S. was (being) banned, a prominent young Rosh Yeshiva gave him your advice. But things just got worse.
I've compared Rabbi S. to someone raised in an emotionally abusive home who, as happens too often, grows up to be an abuser himself. It's not so simple to constantly give in, even if the hard line has an element of being unethical.
Who said anything about giving in? It’s simple: If your goal is to defend Charedism, then represent Charedism well. If you claim to represent Charedism or authentic Judaism, and snarkiness and mockery and silliness are primary means of doing so, it doesn’t look good.
We already have sources that represent Chareidism well. They are called Shas and Poskim, Mussar and hashkafa seforim. These are taught in yeshivos, kollelim, and by rabbanim in their shuls. The point of this site is to refute the corrupted versions of Judaism espoused by people like Slifkin. Mockery is one of our best tools to that end. If you feel that he doesn't need to be refuted, by all means, go back to your Shas and poskim, and don't waste your time reading this! But for some people it is very helpful.
In my estimation, this blog with its snarkiness, is an unfortunate step in the right direction, and has succeeded in reducing the snarkiness coming from the other side--a net gain.
Shimshon with his sharp tongue has compiled or cited others who have compiled, the Talmud's snarkiness. It's there, but likely that we disagree if that is appropriate in the present context.
Let's put this on hold and check back in a few months to see where things went.
First of all, Substack is where it's at nowadays. I've haven't done an exhaustive study, but they currently seem to be the leaders in blogging. Additionally, they have all types of ways of driving subscriptions and views. We just wouldn't get the same visibility elsewhere. And lastly, since Slifkin is here, it works out very well for us to be here as well. Substack knows how which blogs share common readers and has various ways of drawing the audiences in.
But I get Mecharkers point about Slifkin etc. Just it's really annoying. Am I supposed to look every day at every "continue thread" to see the new comments?
I mean, I admit I am bored sometimes, but that's a full time job!
Yea, I doubt it. But as the number of contributors grow, you never know what's in store...
I was looking for a comment before, and in a way it feels like a maze. You click on endless "continue threads", looking for a something, and in the end it just leads you to another one of Test's nonsensical rants about eating hamantashen during kiddush levanah.
For anyone reading, let me publicly correct myself for all to see. I just looked up some sources again and I see that I made a mistake, hear me out. I was blinded by my excitement in understanding the Rambam and reflected his opinion into other Rishonim.
Everything I said about the Rambam, is perfectly true. But this statement: “Although the mekubalim disagree with the Rambam there… but by maaseh breishis they agree that “mikra yotzei midei pshuto” in this sense.” is NOT true. Reb HGLP is correct.
Here’s the Ramban (בראשית א,ג):
"ודע, כי הימים הנזכרים במעשה בראשית היו בבריאת השמים והארץ ימים ממש, מחוברים משעות ורגעים, והיו שישה כששת ימי המעשה, כפשוטו של מקרא. ובפנימיות הענין יקראו "ימים" הספירות האצולות מעליון, כי כל מאמר פועל הויה תיקרא "יוֹם". והיו שישה, כי לה' הגדולה והגבורה..."
“Know that the term “day” as used in the story of the creation was, in the case of the creation of heaven and earth, a real day, composed of hours and seconds, and there were six days like the six days of the workweek, as is the plain meaning of the verse. In its inner sense, the Emanations issuing from the Most High are called “days,” for every Divine Saying which evoked an existence is called “day.” These were six, “for Unto G-d there is the greatness, and the power” …”
Let’s explain. Basically, there are two planes of existence, the one we experience daily, the physicalworld which we see and touch and breath. And the עולמות העליונים, where our Neshomo, Malachim, etc… and HKBH reside. In a Zohar world everything happens on both planes; this world is a manifestation of the next. The Rambam believed that the two planes never did coincide and therefore any time they seem to he explains it as happening in the “real” world, the עולמות העליונים. This is the one area the מקובלים disagree with the Rambam. The disagreements with the Rambam and the Ramban are always about this one single point. Avraham’s Malachim, Sheidim, Korbanos (big one!), astrology, magic and so on.
I thought, erroneously, that by מעשה בראשית they converge. But I am wrong. Here too the Ramban, while at the core he agrees that the main point of מעשה בראשית was at the deeper plane, as we discussed in the post, argues on the Rambam that the פשוטו של מקרא is the one that happens on this physical plane, and therefore agrees with the Abarbanel that days were literal, as we were taught when we were five.
This is absolutely of no help to Slifkin though, because the days are completely literal (and the Mesora has shown that the Rambam is wrong).
So it may be that after all there's no real disagreement. The following statement, from the Baal Hatanya's Shulchan Aruch (Mahadura Basra 1:8), is relevant:
"For the time of Divine favor above, and the Supernal Unions effected by the recitation of Shema and Shemoneh Esreh, and the sanctity of Shabbos and the festivals — all transcend the limits of space and time, though they radiate “downward” into the physical realms to each and every place at the time appropriate for it."
Since Hashem is higher than time, then the point would seem to be that from His perspective everything was created in one instant, but from the point of view of the world, things happened over the course of six terrestrial days.
It's funny, one question I had on the approach that universe actually is billions of years old is that it doesn't seem necessary. Why would Hashem not just create it in an instant if what matters began 5,783 years ago? Slifkin deals with this (to be able to appreciate the work that was put in to get to us, similar to what Rashi says about Adam being created last), I guess if world actually were billions old, I wouldn't have a problem with his answer, but to me it is a bit forced for different reasons.
I then realized that this very same question applies if creation took an actual physical six days - why would Hashem not create it an an instant? I just found in old notes (when I was thinking about these stuff originally I typed up an outline of my thoughts, some are garbage), "...even the Abarbenel who says physical 6, who was there to witness? maybe it means to what would be our perception if we were there, as everything else is to our perception..." hard to decipher, I have absolutely no recollection of what I meant, but I think it might mean your point...?
Either way, nice idea, backed by a nice מראה מקום! I'll think about it more...
Why does our interpretation need to square with that of all the rishonim? Rambam and others interpreted the Torah using the science and aristotelian philosophy of their times. Four elements, Galgalim etc.
Why can't we learn from them to interpret non literally while offering our own peshat with fits modern science? We believe Hashem created the world. Why should we get hung up on which scientific process he used?
Derech Agav, Rav Rabinovitch points out that there are also rishonim which discuss the creation of Adam Harishon as a process btw.
If you're not bothered by the question, all the better! Keep shteiging in what really matters, like learning Hashem's helige Shas!
About "using the science of the times", we'll discuss ancient science and philosophy in a later post but for now: Four elements and galgalim are not an Aristotelian construct. They are very much from our Mesorah. I'll wait until that post to discuss in more detail.
"Rav Rabinovitch points out..." Rav Gamliel? Can you link?
I can email you pages from his sefer Mesilot Bilvavam. I think our Masoret is made up of Gedolim who learned from the science and thought of their times. Read מאמר על הרשות ועל ההגדות by רב אברהם בן הרמב"ם.
He quotes one of RNS 's favorite gemarot. Rav Sherirya gaon says that the medicines in the gemara are just the science of their day. The Rambam says the same re the treifot but obviously we don't change anything bec we're not Sanhedrin.
Clear distinction made by the Rambam in More Nevuchim. Mitzvot are eternal. Didn't stop him from reinterpreting Avrahams meeting with the angels as a prophetic dream.
The Rishonim did not know any more science than the others of their time. Therefore, there is no need for our science or scientific answers to shtim with theirs. To do so would be the equivalent of relying on them for medicone for example.
However, they were the link in the mesorah to us, and thus our hashkafos generally need to shtim with the overall mehalach of at least some of the rishonim.
Once you say, very correctly, that in the hashkafos of the rishonim, the days are conceptual and not actual, and saying that the six days of creation are not a literal description of what happened in physical metzius, it is perfectly fine to adjust the period of time from a moment (which best matched the Rambams science of kadmus) to our science of 14 billion years (which has very strong proofs and is not just a number the scientists pulled from their tuches.) We do not need to accept their science, merely their hashkafos, and once saying the days are conceptual is hashkafically OK, we can take it and run with it.
You disagree because the Rambam didn’t know modern science, and a lot has changed since then. I already responded to that - “There is no license to assume that the Rambam would’ve changed his opinion today, being that nothing new has been discovered to have reason to change our old opinions, as we will discuss soon in part three.” So stay tuned!
But about what you said regarding our science of billions of years, you realize that the universe could have been created a mere three years ago with everything we know of it programmed as its backstory, right? No scientific evidence could disprove that; the only question is if it’s reasonable. Many will argue that if the Torah says the universe is 5,783 years old, it is perfectly reasonable to assume this history we see to be but a backstory. I understand that you think its unreasonable and while I agree with you that it is not (without my upcoming post), that is the argument you should be making.
Would you be OK with assuming Adam Harishon visited his father in law every shabbos? (I once heard a choshuve RY suggest this.) If yes, your approach has merit and is unverifiable. If not, then you are still really stuck with the vast evidence of human civilization preAdam.
As far as I can tell, science is not wrong. And yes, you should learn more, but actual questions are acceptable. I believe I have a way of dealing with this engaging your perspective.
BTW this was just a warm up, wait until you see what I got up my sleeve! We'll see if you agree but I promise something to think about... (nothing too radical, dw)
You have a point, but the buck doesn't stop there, since there's lots of talk with how the years are counted considering carbon dating ect. and that dating system would post questions even following Adam, considering scientific understanding of when civilization began. You can't just take an interpretation and "run with it", rather use it as wiggle room but then consider each issue separately and carefully. By the time you're done, you might have a different conclusion than mainstream chareidi, (I for myself never tried) but I have no doubt you will still be in line with the typical drink-the-cool-aid-of science-guy.
Science isn't always cool-aid but some people often take and run with whatever the scientific world accepts as axiomatic when things are really very gray. While many things come from honest conclusions based on rigorous study, some just comes from a proposed theory never challenged. I for myself see this all the time in archeology, and from reading COVID material, you get my drift.
I didn't say that. Look back at my first comment. I wrote that there's much to consider when it comes to dating systems, so if someone just reads the universe is 15,000,000,000 years old in a book and just running with it, and sees the only other option to ignore science completely, that's called being black and white when things are more gray. All I am saying is to look through things clearly and delicately and not to "just run with things". I thought I am being clear but every response you infer that I am completely disregarding science. Stop being so black and white.
For example, you write above that you see no reason to doubt the experts. Meaning you trust them without doing your own research. Now I know you'll say your research is nothing compared to theirs, but I am only saying you should make sure they didn't reject an opposing theory since that would be on religions side. I never looked into this properly, and have nothing against someone who feels pushed into a corner to explain the six days of creation in a less traditional way, but I am not getting that vibe from you.
I was very clear and it doesn't require any followup. Now I see why they treat you with Leitzanus. You adhere to the Slifkin methodology of online debate: 'Are you implying XYZ!?' And then to his breathless audience: 'Do you see how idiotic ALL THOSE people are'?! He actually said something so bizarre....'
Great post..but..but Minyan factories!!! And cheating the government!!! And..and...sheitels!!! And Cancun vacations!!! And rebbes!!! And CHOLENT!!!!
QED
You win 😉
Yep. Leitzonus always wins. I don't deny that. In the eyes of the hamon am and the majority of average intelligence. Doesn't the ramchal refer to it as an oiled shield or something.
Which is why chazal stress so often how horrible it is and how much to keep away from it. But presumably all those from the dawn of time that warn against leitzonus are not from our mesorah
But those of us who have an intimate connection and understanding of HKBH having studied in depth the rishonim and acharonim on the topic (not just those who believe it means shockeling a million times a minute and a virtue signalling shemonah esrei longer than the chap sitting next to them, but nonetheless happy to roll in late every morning) know the truth. The emperor has no clothes and in the majority of cases its all chitzonious.
" intimate connection and understanding of HKBH having studied in depth the rishonim and acharonim on the topic"
-says the guy who regularly or exclusively attends the 10:00 minyan, and for the years in kollel spent the majority of time hanging out in the coffee room, which is reflected in his comments that display excessive familiarity with those aspects of chareidi life almost to the exclusion of everything else (well, ok, he also obviously gazes at women alot, from his many comments about sheitels). You are beyond parody. Would you like to write for us?
and studying in depth is just scholastic, hardly the point, as I said earlier, " The non-chareidi knows a ton of shitos, but has no idea what these shitos mean. The chareidi knows maybe just one shita, maybe two (because they are busy learning Hashem’s word), but understands it deeply, this one more deeply than the next. Because after all the dust settles, Olam Haba/gan eden/yemos hamashiach/bechira/ethics/whatever are all about being close to HKBH, a simple idea they are intimate with."
You told me yourself the charedi doesn't know any shittos. In fact, their view of olam haboh has probably not moved on since kindergarten. How can it, from a few daf noshim nezikin? And learning that sort of stuff is frowned upon anyway.
They ape each other, learn yeshivish behavious from each other, walk the walk and talk the talk. All chitzoniyous. A good modox person from merkaz harav will know much more.
NO I said he knows one, maybe two shitos. His view of Olam Haba moves tremendously since kindergarten - qualitatively. (And by the way, you hit the nail on the head - even a child in kindergarten can understand, if only to his level, the basic tenets of Judaism, and as he grows up he appreciated more and more. This has been quipped by many, including R' Yisroel Salanter.)
You don't know what you are talking about, and are merely revealing your own ignorance about the astounding intellectual level of talmidei chachamim, in all areas of Jewish thought. As Happy retorted , you are projecting your own madreiga and that of the people that you hung out with...
Great post! Can't say I agree totally 100% but you definitely gave us a lot to think about!
One thing that stands out to me is your statement that our Mesorah from all the Rishonim is that the world was created in no time. I think you would agree that the pashut pshat is 6 days, not no time, right? Isn't that how you were taught? It would be a tremendous chiddush to assume these cryptic statements from the Rambam and Ramban are the consensus of all the Rishonim. The Ramban doesn't say it explicitly at all, and I doubt he means that. And as for the Rambam, the Abarbanel disputes him with very strong leshonos. I don't see how you can say this very controversial idea is our mesorah.
Thanks! Take everything I say with a grain of salt. This is just my opinion, I'd love to hear feedback! I use words in the post like "according to our Mesorah"; I mean what understand it to be... Use my words as a starting point, and if I'm wrong in some areas, we'll grow together.
That being said, I think (now) that I am correct:)
There's no way to teach a child these kinds of concepts. I was taught it as six days. Meanwhile, it isn't false - a physical day is nothing more than the physical manifestation of this more refined day, just as all physical things are. Your hand isn't the true hand; your hand is the physical manifestation of a more conceptual hand. (I hope my English isn't making this sound silly...)
Let me say this better: I was taught that creation took place in six days - with no explanation whatsoever of what days are! By the time I learned Chumash, I already knew what days were. I was then taught about these days and I, using my methods of interpretation, deciphered them as physical days. If I am correct, that these days were actually conceptual, I wasn't taught wrong. Capiche?
Great post, I love it, especially the author’s thoughtful and respectful tone! He sets a fantastic example of how to be marbeh kevod shamayim and treat others with dignity and respect. Reading some of his responses in the comments to the last post brought me to tears. I couldn’t help thinking of what Rav Aharon Lichtenstein zatzal wrote years ago, “Shall we never go sledding together again?” I’d previously thought that the creepy, very clearly trauma-ridden lunatic in the comments section is certainly a kofer and a unquestionable “mevazeh talmid chacham” (see Shaarei Teshuvah of Rabeinu Yonah 3:147ff). But no, he’s a human being too. He deserves sincere and straightforward answers to his queries. This got me thinking. Maybe my community is not so perfect after all? Maybe people do fress too much at kiddushes? Maybe minyan factories are not the kiddush Hashem I’d thought them to be? Maybe the people in Ger are violent criminals? Maybe I should start thinking about random halachically permissible women’s shaitels? Maybe Mishpacha and Ami do have relevance? Maybe I should enroll in college, and enroll my kids in public school so they could get a proper education (or at least know proper English)? Maybe my community is a bunch of hypocritical thieves and child molesters? Maybe my community is guilty of gadoltry and anti-LGBT bigotry? Maybe we are closeminded fanatics who have no concept of the basics of Judaism? Maybe certified enemies of the chareidi community are not so certified after all (e.g., Harav Hagaon R' Nosson Slifkin shlita)? Maybe the bachurim in Mir and Ponovez are unruly delinquents, not unlike the Black and Brown youth in disadvantaged communities? Maybe everyone in the chareidi beis medrish is a bunch of classic yeshivish losers who don’t know what they’re talking about? Maybe we’re just a bunch of walking chillul Hashems? Maybe our leaders are not so great after all? Maybe we need to quit the elitist nonsense, thinking we’re holier than the Modern Orthodox? Does not watching TV, limiting internet, generally being shomer negiah, make us so much better than the Modern Orthodox? Is putting great effort into mitzvos, trying to get everything halachically accurate really something that makes us better Jews? Could it be that the people I’d thought were so good are really so bad, and the people I’d thought were so bad are really so good? Could it be that the Torah itself might actually not be so moral?
More to the topic, maybe I’m not a true maamin? Maybe all my rebbeim in yeshivah who never talked about these things were wrong? Maybe all the chareidi gedolim who don’t talk about these things are wrong? Maybe the Rema (YD 246:4) who writes, “One should only study Mikra, Mishna, Gemara, and the poskim which flow from them, and with this one will acquire this world and the next, but not with the study of other wisdoms [i.e., philosophy],” was wrong? Maybe Shiltei Gibborim in Avodah Zarah 5b n. 1, Chavos Yair 124 and 210, and others who write that one shouldn’t engage in chakirah, rather believe in Hashem on a simple level, were wrong (see also Rambam Hilchos Avodah Zarah 2:3)? Don’t get me wrong. I’m not ready to jump ship just yet. But I really appreciate the tone of this author. We need to be more openminded and tolerant of others. Let’s all try to be friends. Let’s respect the fact that there are real issues that need to be confronted. We need to take a hard look at our community’s bein adam lechaveiro vis-à-vis other communities. We need to confront challenges to our faith. We need to re-examine assumptions about those who were kicked out of our community, like Harav Slifkin shlita. Harav Slifkin is not a freak of nature into stuffed animals. No, he’s a sincere mavakeish Hashem and amal batorah, just like you and me. I’d venture to say he’s one of Judaism's finest rabbinic thinkers, maybe even a “gadol beyisrael.” We need to be more broadminded and respectful to people who might just have a different derech than us. We need to focus on our own weaknesses and limitations and probe issues which challange the chareidi narrative. This will only make us stronger and more successful and it's critical for our community’s survival and success.
Wow, powerful comment! I don't quite appreciate the attitude towards Dovid, who is sincere and really trying to be marbeh kvod shomayim - whether or not you agree with his mehalech - but there are some very powerful points in your long string of sarcasm.
(Unlike Mecharker Shlit’a, I initially interpreted this comment as a sincere one, not as derisive (too long to be a joke and I'm usually somewhat naïve to a fault when reading people although I was concerned at how far this was being taken, - EDIT or maybe the compliment in the beginning went to my head and I didn't want to read it as a mussar? - and Mecharker's pshat sounds better...) and I’m responding in kind.)
Well… I appreciate the accolades and that you were touched, and I loved how you began the post. But I hope I didn’t give the impression that I am actually okay with Bizui Talmid Chachamim. This Rabbeinu Yonah will be a center in an upcoming post. There is nothing, NOTHING more important to me than a real Talmid Chacham! (who are usually Chareidi.) Because that is what is important to Hashem. It bothers me tremendously when they are put down because then Hashem is put down (hence these posts…) But I feel we will get further being somewhat respectful as you beautifully and meaningfully point out (of course only up to a point; we haven’t gotten close to that yet).
As far as Test goes (I assume you are referring to him), I don’t know what his background is but if he’s commenting on a yeshivishe blog, he’s still in my books! As you said, people that aren’t in your bubble deserve respect too. They have a world view that may be coming from Rabbeim of theirs and who can judge anyone else? He surely doesn't think he is a lunatic! Only us, who are outsiders to him may get that impression. (Besides, how fun would this blog be without him?)
This doesn’t mean these people are right though.
And about Slifkin, I wasn’t quite that nice to him, see here: https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/reheating-the-bath/comment/15528836 - eruv rav is far from complimentary.
Thanks for the kind words and for the very moving and powerful comment!
If Mecharker is right, your post is more powerful and point taken, but I don't find test to be such a threat. He sounds like he is angry at the system and we all see it. But in my actual life I know people in much worse situations than he and I know them very well, enough not too judge them. And I've seen some of them turn around as time went on.
Dovid can be commended for his style of approach. There is merit in treating adversaries with respect. But such sentiments are only voluntary, they are not a necessity. The more in-your-face , cynical approach is a valid method and there is nothing wrong or immature with it.
That is in general. But with regard to Slifkin I think the gloves-off approach is actually necessary. For two reasons: 1) He treats everyone maliciously and sardonically, besmirching and broad swiping. One cannot take the high road when dealing with a low-blow opponent. 2) When dealing with matters of such vital importance- the very underpinnings of our faith- we cannot leave room for someone to err that we are open to Slifkin's Apikursus. We must be full-throated and unequivocal, and treat people like Slifkin with (at least subtle) derision.
When dealing with a low-blow opponent or someone arguing in bad faith, the appropriate response is to usually either take the high road, or ignore them. Frankly, the cynical approach I see used on this blog is off-putting and does no good to the name of Judaism, let alone Charedism. Scoring low points might be effective for politics, but not for the religion of truth. It might momentarily feel good and like "you're winning", but that's just your ego. You might convince yourself that Hashem is happy with the pettiness employed here, but you're just fooling yourself. I won't say mockery never has a place . It is clearly used at certain times in Tanach and in the Gemara. But there's a reason it's not off-putting there. With our Sages, it is not their modus operandi, and when they do use it, their class and purity of intent shines through. Unfortunately, I don't believe that to be the case on this blog. Just my observation.
This is an interesting perspective. Many people have told us that they get a lot of chizuk from our approach. Natan is skilled at making the greatest falsehoods and corruptions of the Torah sound true and righteous, and after a good deal of research, we have found our method is the most effective response (that doesn't simply ignore him). There is a mehalech of ענה כסיל כאולתו.
I guess different strokes for different folks.
You may be correct logically and morally, but there's a statistic indicating otherwise. When Rabbi S. was (being) banned, a prominent young Rosh Yeshiva gave him your advice. But things just got worse.
I've compared Rabbi S. to someone raised in an emotionally abusive home who, as happens too often, grows up to be an abuser himself. It's not so simple to constantly give in, even if the hard line has an element of being unethical.
Who said anything about giving in? It’s simple: If your goal is to defend Charedism, then represent Charedism well. If you claim to represent Charedism or authentic Judaism, and snarkiness and mockery and silliness are primary means of doing so, it doesn’t look good.
We already have sources that represent Chareidism well. They are called Shas and Poskim, Mussar and hashkafa seforim. These are taught in yeshivos, kollelim, and by rabbanim in their shuls. The point of this site is to refute the corrupted versions of Judaism espoused by people like Slifkin. Mockery is one of our best tools to that end. If you feel that he doesn't need to be refuted, by all means, go back to your Shas and poskim, and don't waste your time reading this! But for some people it is very helpful.
"Giving in" was my bad. I meant letting it pass.
In my estimation, this blog with its snarkiness, is an unfortunate step in the right direction, and has succeeded in reducing the snarkiness coming from the other side--a net gain.
Shimshon with his sharp tongue has compiled or cited others who have compiled, the Talmud's snarkiness. It's there, but likely that we disagree if that is appropriate in the present context.
Let's put this on hold and check back in a few months to see where things went.
This is governed by the laws on Lashon Hara L'toeles.
McCracker, can you perhaps go off substack and use a different venue?
It is very annoying searching for new comments.
I would suggest should using a system where new comments automatically pop up on top. There are plenty of blogs like that.
First of all, Substack is where it's at nowadays. I've haven't done an exhaustive study, but they currently seem to be the leaders in blogging. Additionally, they have all types of ways of driving subscriptions and views. We just wouldn't get the same visibility elsewhere. And lastly, since Slifkin is here, it works out very well for us to be here as well. Substack knows how which blogs share common readers and has various ways of drawing the audiences in.
It's a problem, but is there a better option?
Yes, there are plenty of blogs where the new comments come up first. See these for example
https://www.ivelt.com/forum/search.php?search_id=newposts
https://tora-forum.co.il/
But I get Mecharkers point about Slifkin etc. Just it's really annoying. Am I supposed to look every day at every "continue thread" to see the new comments?
I mean, I admit I am bored sometimes, but that's a full time job!
I know! This last one was off the rails, I don't think it'll usually be like that...
Yea, I doubt it. But as the number of contributors grow, you never know what's in store...
I was looking for a comment before, and in a way it feels like a maze. You click on endless "continue threads", looking for a something, and in the end it just leads you to another one of Test's nonsensical rants about eating hamantashen during kiddush levanah.
What a letdown!
ERROR ANOUNCEMENT:
For anyone reading, let me publicly correct myself for all to see. I just looked up some sources again and I see that I made a mistake, hear me out. I was blinded by my excitement in understanding the Rambam and reflected his opinion into other Rishonim.
Everything I said about the Rambam, is perfectly true. But this statement: “Although the mekubalim disagree with the Rambam there… but by maaseh breishis they agree that “mikra yotzei midei pshuto” in this sense.” is NOT true. Reb HGLP is correct.
Here’s the Ramban (בראשית א,ג):
"ודע, כי הימים הנזכרים במעשה בראשית היו בבריאת השמים והארץ ימים ממש, מחוברים משעות ורגעים, והיו שישה כששת ימי המעשה, כפשוטו של מקרא. ובפנימיות הענין יקראו "ימים" הספירות האצולות מעליון, כי כל מאמר פועל הויה תיקרא "יוֹם". והיו שישה, כי לה' הגדולה והגבורה..."
“Know that the term “day” as used in the story of the creation was, in the case of the creation of heaven and earth, a real day, composed of hours and seconds, and there were six days like the six days of the workweek, as is the plain meaning of the verse. In its inner sense, the Emanations issuing from the Most High are called “days,” for every Divine Saying which evoked an existence is called “day.” These were six, “for Unto G-d there is the greatness, and the power” …”
Let’s explain. Basically, there are two planes of existence, the one we experience daily, the physicalworld which we see and touch and breath. And the עולמות העליונים, where our Neshomo, Malachim, etc… and HKBH reside. In a Zohar world everything happens on both planes; this world is a manifestation of the next. The Rambam believed that the two planes never did coincide and therefore any time they seem to he explains it as happening in the “real” world, the עולמות העליונים. This is the one area the מקובלים disagree with the Rambam. The disagreements with the Rambam and the Ramban are always about this one single point. Avraham’s Malachim, Sheidim, Korbanos (big one!), astrology, magic and so on.
I thought, erroneously, that by מעשה בראשית they converge. But I am wrong. Here too the Ramban, while at the core he agrees that the main point of מעשה בראשית was at the deeper plane, as we discussed in the post, argues on the Rambam that the פשוטו של מקרא is the one that happens on this physical plane, and therefore agrees with the Abarbanel that days were literal, as we were taught when we were five.
This is absolutely of no help to Slifkin though, because the days are completely literal (and the Mesora has shown that the Rambam is wrong).
I apologize for the error.
So it may be that after all there's no real disagreement. The following statement, from the Baal Hatanya's Shulchan Aruch (Mahadura Basra 1:8), is relevant:
כִּי "עֵת רָצוֹן" שֶׁלְּמַעְלָה, וְיִחוּדִים עֶלְיוֹנִים שֶׁבִּקְרִיאַת שְׁמַע וּתְפִלָּה, וּקְדֻשַּׁת שַׁבָּת וְיוֹם־טוֹב – הוּא לְמַעְלָה מִגֶּדֶר הַמָּקוֹם וְהַזְּמַן, רַק שֶׁמֵּאִיר לְמַטָּה לְכָל מָקוֹם וּמָקוֹם בִּזְמַנּוֹ הָרָאוּי לוֹ.
"For the time of Divine favor above, and the Supernal Unions effected by the recitation of Shema and Shemoneh Esreh, and the sanctity of Shabbos and the festivals — all transcend the limits of space and time, though they radiate “downward” into the physical realms to each and every place at the time appropriate for it."
Since Hashem is higher than time, then the point would seem to be that from His perspective everything was created in one instant, but from the point of view of the world, things happened over the course of six terrestrial days.
That is very interesting!
It's funny, one question I had on the approach that universe actually is billions of years old is that it doesn't seem necessary. Why would Hashem not just create it in an instant if what matters began 5,783 years ago? Slifkin deals with this (to be able to appreciate the work that was put in to get to us, similar to what Rashi says about Adam being created last), I guess if world actually were billions old, I wouldn't have a problem with his answer, but to me it is a bit forced for different reasons.
I then realized that this very same question applies if creation took an actual physical six days - why would Hashem not create it an an instant? I just found in old notes (when I was thinking about these stuff originally I typed up an outline of my thoughts, some are garbage), "...even the Abarbenel who says physical 6, who was there to witness? maybe it means to what would be our perception if we were there, as everything else is to our perception..." hard to decipher, I have absolutely no recollection of what I meant, but I think it might mean your point...?
Either way, nice idea, backed by a nice מראה מקום! I'll think about it more...
Why does our interpretation need to square with that of all the rishonim? Rambam and others interpreted the Torah using the science and aristotelian philosophy of their times. Four elements, Galgalim etc.
Why can't we learn from them to interpret non literally while offering our own peshat with fits modern science? We believe Hashem created the world. Why should we get hung up on which scientific process he used?
Derech Agav, Rav Rabinovitch points out that there are also rishonim which discuss the creation of Adam Harishon as a process btw.
If you're not bothered by the question, all the better! Keep shteiging in what really matters, like learning Hashem's helige Shas!
About "using the science of the times", we'll discuss ancient science and philosophy in a later post but for now: Four elements and galgalim are not an Aristotelian construct. They are very much from our Mesorah. I'll wait until that post to discuss in more detail.
"Rav Rabinovitch points out..." Rav Gamliel? Can you link?
I can email you pages from his sefer Mesilot Bilvavam. I think our Masoret is made up of Gedolim who learned from the science and thought of their times. Read מאמר על הרשות ועל ההגדות by רב אברהם בן הרמב"ם.
He quotes one of RNS 's favorite gemarot. Rav Sherirya gaon says that the medicines in the gemara are just the science of their day. The Rambam says the same re the treifot but obviously we don't change anything bec we're not Sanhedrin.
Please!
Sent them
דרשות*
R Nochum Rabinovich
Take that to extension.
We should contrive our daily practice acc. to modern currents as well eg abolish milk & meat
Clear distinction made by the Rambam in More Nevuchim. Mitzvot are eternal. Didn't stop him from reinterpreting Avrahams meeting with the angels as a prophetic dream.
I have to say I strongly disagree with this post.
The Rishonim did not know any more science than the others of their time. Therefore, there is no need for our science or scientific answers to shtim with theirs. To do so would be the equivalent of relying on them for medicone for example.
However, they were the link in the mesorah to us, and thus our hashkafos generally need to shtim with the overall mehalach of at least some of the rishonim.
Once you say, very correctly, that in the hashkafos of the rishonim, the days are conceptual and not actual, and saying that the six days of creation are not a literal description of what happened in physical metzius, it is perfectly fine to adjust the period of time from a moment (which best matched the Rambams science of kadmus) to our science of 14 billion years (which has very strong proofs and is not just a number the scientists pulled from their tuches.) We do not need to accept their science, merely their hashkafos, and once saying the days are conceptual is hashkafically OK, we can take it and run with it.
You disagree because the Rambam didn’t know modern science, and a lot has changed since then. I already responded to that - “There is no license to assume that the Rambam would’ve changed his opinion today, being that nothing new has been discovered to have reason to change our old opinions, as we will discuss soon in part three.” So stay tuned!
But about what you said regarding our science of billions of years, you realize that the universe could have been created a mere three years ago with everything we know of it programmed as its backstory, right? No scientific evidence could disprove that; the only question is if it’s reasonable. Many will argue that if the Torah says the universe is 5,783 years old, it is perfectly reasonable to assume this history we see to be but a backstory. I understand that you think its unreasonable and while I agree with you that it is not (without my upcoming post), that is the argument you should be making.
If I am misunderstanding you let me know.
Would you be OK with assuming Adam Harishon visited his father in law every shabbos? (I once heard a choshuve RY suggest this.) If yes, your approach has merit and is unverifiable. If not, then you are still really stuck with the vast evidence of human civilization preAdam.
Not a chance, Adam did not go to his great grandmother's 90th (900th?) birthday party! (see also Rashi beginning of Vayikra about gezel)
good way of bringing out the point, I hope to address...
Do you have a way of dealing with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe
Other than "science is wrong" or "learn more"?
I have a way of dealing with it 😜https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/i/102879527/my-novel-reinterpretation-attempt unfortunately though this is not such a great way of dealing with it since it is against Chazal and why would I want to go there for no good reason.
Is doubting their opinions of the accuracy of radiocarbon dating considered saying "science is wrong"?
What about saying it is a remnant of the earlier worlds the Tiferes Yisrael thinks existed?
As far as I can tell, science is not wrong. And yes, you should learn more, but actual questions are acceptable. I believe I have a way of dealing with this engaging your perspective.
BTW this was just a warm up, wait until you see what I got up my sleeve! We'll see if you agree but I promise something to think about... (nothing too radical, dw)
Waiting...
You have a point, but the buck doesn't stop there, since there's lots of talk with how the years are counted considering carbon dating ect. and that dating system would post questions even following Adam, considering scientific understanding of when civilization began. You can't just take an interpretation and "run with it", rather use it as wiggle room but then consider each issue separately and carefully. By the time you're done, you might have a different conclusion than mainstream chareidi, (I for myself never tried) but I have no doubt you will still be in line with the typical drink-the-cool-aid-of science-guy.
Please explain why science is cool aid. Thank you.
Science isn't always cool-aid but some people often take and run with whatever the scientific world accepts as axiomatic when things are really very gray. While many things come from honest conclusions based on rigorous study, some just comes from a proposed theory never challenged. I for myself see this all the time in archeology, and from reading COVID material, you get my drift.
How in the world is he world being older than 5,800 years old "gray"? Don't be ridiculous.
I didn't say that. Look back at my first comment. I wrote that there's much to consider when it comes to dating systems, so if someone just reads the universe is 15,000,000,000 years old in a book and just running with it, and sees the only other option to ignore science completely, that's called being black and white when things are more gray. All I am saying is to look through things clearly and delicately and not to "just run with things". I thought I am being clear but every response you infer that I am completely disregarding science. Stop being so black and white.
For example, you write above that you see no reason to doubt the experts. Meaning you trust them without doing your own research. Now I know you'll say your research is nothing compared to theirs, but I am only saying you should make sure they didn't reject an opposing theory since that would be on religions side. I never looked into this properly, and have nothing against someone who feels pushed into a corner to explain the six days of creation in a less traditional way, but I am not getting that vibe from you.
Have you, and how extensively, heard the young-earth creationists' side of the story?
Feel free to answer this. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_against_a_recent_creation
Yes, and yes.
Have you heard the other side?
Very well said.
A small correction: The Arizal said that the Rambam had no access to Kabbala.
True, but the Vilna Gaon was more intense about it so I quoted him. The Ramak is surprising to me.
I was very clear and it doesn't require any followup. Now I see why they treat you with Leitzanus. You adhere to the Slifkin methodology of online debate: 'Are you implying XYZ!?' And then to his breathless audience: 'Do you see how idiotic ALL THOSE people are'?! He actually said something so bizarre....'