Can Natan hand the reins of RJ to the rav? He's actually rational. And inspiring. The sketchy translation is a feature not a bug.
Being "terrified" (his own literal word) of highly contrived worst-case scenarios 50 years out is as irrational as it gets. He is literally retarded in some way. In any case, the state he worships may not even survive 5784.
I was hopeful after the war started he might join others in the chorus of seeing the good more than the bad. I was wrong in thinking he was less jaundiced than he is.
He unintentionally revealed that he really is bitter (not like we didn't know) despite repeated denials in a recent comment: "If you think I'm bitter, you should speak to people whose kids are in combat."
It doesn't get more clear than that. He's also probably largely projecting his bitterness to "people whose kids are in combat." I will project my own views and claim they are probably more concerned about the welfare of their children than seething about those not serving. And praying for the welfare of our soldiers and all of us.
"In any case, the state he worships may not even survive 5784"
Either Moshiach comes soon or the Zionist entity collapses within the next 2 decades. This is not a hope or an ideological statement, it's just math at this point
Unlike Natan's deranged fantasies about rigid and inflexible Charedim bringing the state to its knees, this is far more likely, to the point of certainty.
Internal divisions and a population that is "weak as a spider's web", in the words of one of our more famous enemies. Also, Israel has the most worthless army in world history (there is only one military on the planet that would allow a literal pogrom to be livestreamed for 6 hours before finally responding; if it weren't for the individual courage and initiative of so many different Jews (and Bedouin!) acting on their own, the death count would have been at least double what it was).
Israel can't destroy Hamas because to do so, Israel would need to reoccupy Gaza. Israel can't reoccupy Gaza because both the IDF and Israeli public are too weak to do so. This means that terrorism will continue and that it will never be safe for the residents of the Gaza envelope communities to return to their homes. It's only a matter of time before the same thing happens to the communities on the Lebanese and Syrian borders.
Israel's entire national security strategy is "hide behind Uncle Sam's skirt". The US is on the way out. What's the gameplan for when the US Navy can't be permanently parked in the eastern Med in order to deter Lebanon? An increasingly militaristic Russia is only going to deepen it's involvement in the region over the coming years. The same IDF that is losing against 20,000 semi trained Hamasniks is going to hold back the combined forces of Lebanon, Syria, Iran and Russia? You can throw in Egypt as well as they will rejoin the conflict once the US is no longer in the game.
And without the US, the BDS movement is going to much stronger. The Israeli tech and pharmaceutical sectors in particular are going to be completely strangled.
Now in fairness, the massive chiloni yerida that all of this will bring about will be a huge instance of addition by subtraction, so maybe that offers a glimmer of hope. The thing is, I simply don't believe that most chiloni will leave, no matter how bad things get. Erav Rav have an instinctive drive to stick to the Jewish people.
It's Moshiach or bust. Personally I think Moshiach will be here soon so all of this will be moot.
If that is a recent picture of him, I gotta say that the man looks great. He hasn't aged a day since I last saw a photo of him back in 2006.
In 2005/2006, Aviner (justifiably) took a huge amount of flack for his collaborationist position vis-a-vis the state and the IDF in regards to the expulsion of Gush Katif. Some of the attacks on him were really nasty and even though I disagreed with his "worship the state, the anti religious IDF leadership and rootless chiloni public" position, I couldn't help but admire the way that he remained totally stoic and silent in the face of the most hateful rhetoric from within his own camp. He even went so far as to ask other RZ rabbis not to speak in his defense. That showed tremendous strength of character.
"For example, Rav Meir Mazuz called Rav Tzvi Tau, one of the Gedolim in the dati world, a “צדיק גמור” (completely righteous)"
Does Tau count as RZ anymore? He is basically haredi, post Gush Katif.
"I saw statistical information that seculars have 2 children per couple"
Anything over 0 for this number is far higher than it should be. We already have more than enough Yair Lapids. I'm hoping this figure is including the working class, non observant Mizrahim as "secular".
"By the way, the Arab birthrate in Israel is decreasing"
The birthrate of the Israeli Arabs is irrelevant. Unlike their brothers in Yesha, the Israeli Arabs are far more interested in fighting and murdering each other than engaging is some anti Zionist crusade.
"Unless the ultra-Orthodox become religious-nationalists"
Never gonna happen
"the religious-nationalists become ultra-Orthodox"
Yeah, no. We saw during Covid that the RZs are every bit the state worshiping zombies they were during Gush Katif. The RZs are good people, but a group that brainwashed is beyond saving. Write em' off.
"Working ultra-Orthodox Sephardim"
Shasniks aren't really haredim. Although they are trending that way without Ovadia around to continue pushing his Zionist agenda. Deri is every bit as bad, maybe worse, but he lacks the influence Ovadia had.
"Systematic entry into debt is a sin, also against the intellect, also against the Torah"
It's also the basis for the entire global financial system: take out more debt to buy plastic crap from China that ends up at the bottom of a landfill in America. When this rotten system collapses, it will be possible to build an economy based on real value and real work.
"Then they will start working. Whatever the intellect does not do, compulsion will do."
Exactly. It's a total non issue and has always been a red herring. Your typical braindead chiloni does want the haredim to "start working" but that is only because he underestimates how much the haredim do financial contribute to the state while drastically overestimating how much the haredim actually do receive. In contrast, your Israel Democracy Institute types, who know the real figures, want the haredim to remain as dependent as possible on the Israeli government because they know that Zionism is finished once the haredim become fully economically independent.
"Not to worry. Over time they will go more and more. Every year there are more."
This nonsense again. This is what happens when you just take the statements of the IDF and the Zionist media at face value instead of reading the actual figures that the IDF itself quietly publishes. First of all, Shasniks aren't real haredim so you can throw out the increased number of Shasnik recruits as evidence of haredi Zionization. Secondly, the very tiny number of non Shasnik haredim who do serve are either OTD'ers who are going to be secular in a couple of years regardless or are young family men who are taking advantage of the free career training and coming home on nights and weekends; they don't truly "join" the army so much as work for it. They certainly aren't serving in combat units and there is no sign whatsoever that the haredi hostility to doing so has lessened by one iota over the last several decades.
"This is very interesting, because it shows that among the devout dati rabbis (as opposed to the secularists), there is little resentment about Chareidim’s lack of participation in the army, the economy"
If you actually speak with Israeli chilonim, they categorically DO NOT want the haredim in their army. They are very adamant on this. The truth is, the chilonim would prefer that the RZs weren't in the army either. The whole "serve in our crappy, TikTok, army!" thing is literally 100% a stick to beat the haredim with and nothing else. It's used as code by their political leaders but Lapid and Gantz don't really mean it and their voters know that they don't mean it. In fact, currently the chilonim insist that they *never* called for the haredim to serve in the IDF. Part of the reason they can make this claim with a straight face is because they know that they never actually meant what they said about wanting the haredim to serve.
"Of course, even in this one should not despair, because within me all the souls are buried from the holy path and are about to hatch"
We'll agree to differ on this point.
In all seriousness, I agree with the point he is trying to make but in practice you can't connect with people whose values are totally opposed to your own. Here in America, when an Amish person leaves his community, his family still loves him, still speaks with him and still allow him to visit, but he is no longer permitted to have any part in community life because to allowing him to remain attached to the community would corrupt it. And you can see in the RZ sector, the more an RZ is committed to "building bridges" with the chiloni, the more of an Uncle Tom that person tends to be. There can be no question whatsoever that the positive view that the RZs have of the chilonim has had a corrosive effect on RZ society.
"However, it also doesn’t need to be overstated, once we recognize that the core hashkafos are broadly identical"
When the RZs collaborate with Yair Lapid for the explicitly stated purpose of going after the haredim, we have a very serious problem that cannot be swept under the rug. When Eitam made a deal with Lapid Sr in 2005, Eitam was just trying to save the settlements and grab a ministry. Eitam shouldn't have done what he did, but he wasn't acting out of malice.
Bennett, otoh, was willing to partner with Lapid with the intent of reducing haredi power. And while Bennett isn't even a millionth as bad as Lapid is, there is no question that Bennett desired to turn the haredi into state worshiping slaves like Bennett's own sector. Bennett was not shy about saying that this was what he wanted, either. And Bennett frequently criticized the haredi sector using language that could have come straight from Yair's mouth.
"If it is meant that they are against the state and against the army, in different degrees, half to one third and one fourth - of course we are loyal with all the depths of our soul and we will remain so, and rather we will be adding and going"
otongo, were you in israel ever? you sound pretty connected to their politics (and tho i can't vouch to the truth of anything you said, you clearly have a side). where do these detailed opinions and intricate knowledge come from?
No I was never in Israel. I don't fly (I'm assuming it isn't possible to get to Israel via ship, and even my easy job wouldn't look favorably on me missing 3 months of work) and the I hate traveling. Why would I want to see a place when I can just watch a YouTube video about it? I do have some distant relatives who live in Israel who my mother managed to track down. However, they are some sect of Ukrainian haredim that even I had never heard of and when my mom did finally find one of our distant cousins, he just yelled at her for not being dressed modestly enough, at which point my mom decided to just let the matter rest and enjoy the rest of her vacation.
I used to live in Toronto which is filled with chiloni scum from Israel. There are plenty I've had the misfortune of interacting with around where I live as well (the working class Mizrahi ones are actually okay, aside from their need to remind you that they are Jewish/Israeli every 2 seconds; the upscale Ashkenazic/Gush Dan ones, otoh, are unbearable).
There even was a secular, Ashkenazi Israeli girl in my high school who earned the nickname "PLO", which drove her absolutely crazy. She was mocked not so much for being Jewish or Israeli, but because she insisted on making a huge deal about both of those things and had a really annoying fake Israeli accent (she lived in the US until she was 12 and only lived in Israel for 3 years, the accent was definitely fake. The accent mysteriously vanished in between our sophomore and junior years). She was also a psycho and possibly the most pathological liar I have ever met. Even though I still believe she is a genuinely bad, possibly even terrible, human being, I always got along with her. We developed a bit of a friendship in the aftermath of 9-11 despite hanging out with very different crowds
From 2002 through 2013 I followed Israeli politics extremely closely. I was a big Moshe Feiglin fan and would literally read every word he wrote. I came in contact with some Israeli right wingers on the old school English language Kahane message boards and I met others through Facebook. I also interacted with some Israeli chilonim online during the first haredi draft crisis. Also I play chess online so I run into Israelis there. And I have Israelis who watch my YouTube channel reach out to me from time to time.
Before some Israeli reading chimes in and tells me that I don't understand Israelis or Israeli politics because I don't live there myself, save it. I've heard it all before. I remember the debates in 2011-2013 and all the chilonim were absolutely certain that the haredim would be drafted. When I pointed out that there was literally 0 chance of that happening, they would always respond with their go to, "you don't know what you are talking about because you aren't Israeli" line. Israelis really like to use that argument.
In any case, I haven't followed Israeli politics too closely since Trump burst onto the scene in 2015 and my focus switched over to US domestic politics. I still read the Jerusalem Post or the Israeli Democracy Institute a few times a year just to remind myself how much I absolutely cannot stand Israeli chilonim, but I don't follow the day to day stuff anymore. It's not like the major parties disagree about anything anyway.
I too was a Moshe Feiglin fan and saw him speak on many occasions. I joined the Likud to support his leadership bid and was one of the 500 founding members of Zehut. A good man, but in hindsight politics doesn't suit him, because of that. He was surrounded by disloyal backstabbers (even those he recruited to join his party) save his loyal lieutenants, and the occasional sodomite propped up for lulz.
He used to drive me crazy with his constant suggestion that the Palestinians immigrate to the US and Canada. Never mind the safety of all of us Jews who live in those places.
His libertarian shtick got really old as well. And he suffered from what I call "Begin's Disease", a syndrome known to effect Israeli right wingers like Begin, Kahane and even Bibi somewhat, where the next Holocaust is always around the corner. Feiglin really seemed to believe that if he didn't become PM, millions of Jews were going to die.
I used to be very libertarian, but it is a deeply materialist ideology and I soured on it. Plus many hard-core libertarians are borderline retarded.
And capitalism in its modern incarnation is the literal flip side of communism. In the latter, the state owns all property. In the former, the banks. Surprisingly, communism was less destructive of the nations it infested than capitalism. Russia is still Russian. America, not so much.
Bibi has been claiming Iran is a clear and present danger for woldwide annihilation for decades, and people still believe him, or the claim. I've gotten to the point where I believe with reasonable certainty that nuclear weapons don't even exist.
People who take the libertarian stuff too seriously tend to become antisemites, as well. I like the rational libertarianism of Von Mises and Hayek, not the whacko, crypto Nazi libertarianism of Murray Rothbard.
Re Bibi: He sucks and he is the weakest (although certainly not the worst) leader the Jewish people have ever had, but I still kinda like him. Unlike Rabin (may his name be blotted out), Peres (see Rabin), Barak, Sharon (see Rabin and Peres), Olmert and Livni, Bibi's heart is at least in the right place, albeit in his own paranoid, narcissistic way. Bibi is basically a Jewish version of Richard Nixon.
and how did you know that you were getting the right side of the story? (if you do have the right side...) in america i know the right and the left and i know who talks after research and who has a political bias, but that's because i'm aware of the whole story. i'm not sure i'd be comfortable with anyone in israel to feel like i'm getting the truth of the politics.
i guess if you were following closely for 11 years, that gives you time to get into it...
When I say I know Israelis, I don't say it as proof that it gives me some insight into Israeli politics. Rather, I say it to show that I am able to dislike Israelis from reasons that go *beyond* politics. Basically I'm pre-empting the whole, "most Israelis are actually really nice, it's just their leaders who are bad". That statement is false. Most working class Mizrahim are nice, but the Gantz and Lapid voters aren't just ignorant or misguided, they really are bad people and I know this because they keep moving to America (and Canada) en masse and annoying the hell out of both the Jews and the gentiles already living in those places.
I know Israeli politics because I know Israeli politics. One does not have to be American, live in America or even know any Americans to have a very thorough understanding of American politics and the same is true regarding Israeli politics. It's already been shown that most actual Israelis know nothing about Israeli politics: they were certain that the IDF would defeat Hezbollah, that the haredim would be drafted and that the IDF would crush Hamas. I knew that precisely the opposite of those things would occur because, unlike Israelis, I actually know what I'm talking about.
I kinda disagree with your premise. Many Americans have warped perceptions of America, but it's because they pick one media outlet to be their worldview. That can happen to an American who only watches CNN it fox or to an outsider who only watches these. My question was which outlets were you watching? Or were you doing actual research into archives and stuff? Otherwise it's just a construction if a one sided narrative. Not that that's a problem, I'm just curious that's all.
I've always mainly read the other side of whatever politics I'm in. So with Israel I read a lot of of Jpost, Haaretz (it used to be free, plus they would report the news before it even happened), Ynet, Maariv and the Israeli Democracy Institute. And I would speak to Israeli chilonim on Facebook or on the Internet Chess Server.
For American politics I never bothered with MSNBC or CNN, but I read Dailykos, left wing message boards and "Resistance" Twitter. Plus, I live in a family of white liberals who wouldn't shut up about Trump for the years of 2015-2020 so I was exposed to all the retardation in real time. And the thing is, my immediate family really isn't even that bad, other than my brother they don't really believe any of the stuff, they just support whatever Colbert, MSNBC and CNN tell them too but for them it is a cultural thing, not a matter of true belief. Whereas my wine aunts are the real thing.
And I reject that it is always necessary or helpful to read both sides. I had to block so many of the Twitter accounts I followed for information on the Russia Ukraine war specifically because I have no more interest in reading pro Palestinian stuff than I would have had in reading pro Nazi media during WWII. Some positions are just inherently morally illegitimate.
Israelis who emigrate largely do so for money. To paraphrase Trump, we are not sending them our best. Even if they are financially successful, many are morally unsavory.
I can deal with morally unsavory as long as it is hidden underneath a layer of charm. The Arabs are great at this but it does not seem to have worn off on the Gush Dannites.
The working class Mizrahim really do have hearts of gold, though. Yeah they can be annoying just like everyone else from the Mediterranean basin but they are just such good people, you can't help but like them
"It's also the basis for the entire global financial system: take out more debt to buy plastic crap from China that ends up at the bottom of a landfill in America. When this rotten system collapses, it will be possible to build an economy based on real value and real work."
Money is not printed. It is LOANED into existence. If all debts were paid off, there would be no money. Money (ie debt) is disappearing now.
When money supply grows, life is good. When it stagnates, so does the economy. When it decreases, you get depression and war.
Leave it to a rationalist to posit a non-existent connection. Do you have something specific to critique? No. Clearly you are a retard on economic matters.
"Money is not printed. It is LOANED into existence"
Money comes from God. It's called "gold". Or sometimes "silver". When your economy is based on fake growth that comes from loaning fake money into existence out of the ether, you get modern capitalism which is currently in its final stage of collapse.
When Weimar hyperinflated, they finally got out of it by creating a new currency based on land (which eventually transitioned into a gold backed currency once the US finally stepped in). When other countries hyperinflated, including 1980s Israel, they got out of it by creating a currency backed by the USD, which itself is derived from gold. When the USD goes bust, the US gov will have no choice but to create a new currency backed by gold. And that's all she wrote for the post WWII, perpetual debt economic model.
Although if you are merely trying to say that right now crippling deflation in the US is more likely in the short term than hyperinflation, you're probably correct. However, the US political system is so dysfunctional that I'm not certain that we can count on it. Certainly we can be sure that the US government is utterly incapable of the budget cuts that early 30's Germany or mid 80's Israel implemented.
The USD was initially backed by gold. The USD's continued dominance post Bretton Woods come exclusively from its residual acceptance as a gold substitute.
It comes because the US ensured that the oil trade, which underpins the world economy, was transacted in USD. In addition, it controls the IMF and the World Bank, by proxy most emerging economies.
These combined factors create immense demand for USD, allowing the Fed to supply it at will (printer goes brrrr) without creating hyperinflation (until now?!?)
Here is a symposium in the Gush about חרדים. I don’t remember exactly what was discussed but I don’t think they accused חרדים of collapsing the economy and not sharing in the burden of the army.
And may translations be sensical!
One does not need to worry about facebooks AI taking over the world after reading this translation.
And that's after me fixing it up...
לכל אשר יראוך-all those who see you....
lol it reminds me of those awful translated israeli frum novels (frovels) 🤒
Very refreshing Q&A, and article!
Can Natan hand the reins of RJ to the rav? He's actually rational. And inspiring. The sketchy translation is a feature not a bug.
Being "terrified" (his own literal word) of highly contrived worst-case scenarios 50 years out is as irrational as it gets. He is literally retarded in some way. In any case, the state he worships may not even survive 5784.
I was hopeful after the war started he might join others in the chorus of seeing the good more than the bad. I was wrong in thinking he was less jaundiced than he is.
He unintentionally revealed that he really is bitter (not like we didn't know) despite repeated denials in a recent comment: "If you think I'm bitter, you should speak to people whose kids are in combat."
It doesn't get more clear than that. He's also probably largely projecting his bitterness to "people whose kids are in combat." I will project my own views and claim they are probably more concerned about the welfare of their children than seething about those not serving. And praying for the welfare of our soldiers and all of us.
What a pathetic man.
"In any case, the state he worships may not even survive 5784"
Either Moshiach comes soon or the Zionist entity collapses within the next 2 decades. This is not a hope or an ideological statement, it's just math at this point
Unlike Natan's deranged fantasies about rigid and inflexible Charedim bringing the state to its knees, this is far more likely, to the point of certainty.
Hold your breath traitor
traitor. noun. trai·tor ˈtrāt-ər. 1. : one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty.
also
trea·son /ˈtrēzən/ the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government.
I don't think the word means what you think it means. But then, you, like Nathan, project incessantly.
Internal divisions and a population that is "weak as a spider's web", in the words of one of our more famous enemies. Also, Israel has the most worthless army in world history (there is only one military on the planet that would allow a literal pogrom to be livestreamed for 6 hours before finally responding; if it weren't for the individual courage and initiative of so many different Jews (and Bedouin!) acting on their own, the death count would have been at least double what it was).
Israel can't destroy Hamas because to do so, Israel would need to reoccupy Gaza. Israel can't reoccupy Gaza because both the IDF and Israeli public are too weak to do so. This means that terrorism will continue and that it will never be safe for the residents of the Gaza envelope communities to return to their homes. It's only a matter of time before the same thing happens to the communities on the Lebanese and Syrian borders.
Israel's entire national security strategy is "hide behind Uncle Sam's skirt". The US is on the way out. What's the gameplan for when the US Navy can't be permanently parked in the eastern Med in order to deter Lebanon? An increasingly militaristic Russia is only going to deepen it's involvement in the region over the coming years. The same IDF that is losing against 20,000 semi trained Hamasniks is going to hold back the combined forces of Lebanon, Syria, Iran and Russia? You can throw in Egypt as well as they will rejoin the conflict once the US is no longer in the game.
And without the US, the BDS movement is going to much stronger. The Israeli tech and pharmaceutical sectors in particular are going to be completely strangled.
Now in fairness, the massive chiloni yerida that all of this will bring about will be a huge instance of addition by subtraction, so maybe that offers a glimmer of hope. The thing is, I simply don't believe that most chiloni will leave, no matter how bad things get. Erav Rav have an instinctive drive to stick to the Jewish people.
It's Moshiach or bust. Personally I think Moshiach will be here soon so all of this will be moot.
If that is a recent picture of him, I gotta say that the man looks great. He hasn't aged a day since I last saw a photo of him back in 2006.
In 2005/2006, Aviner (justifiably) took a huge amount of flack for his collaborationist position vis-a-vis the state and the IDF in regards to the expulsion of Gush Katif. Some of the attacks on him were really nasty and even though I disagreed with his "worship the state, the anti religious IDF leadership and rootless chiloni public" position, I couldn't help but admire the way that he remained totally stoic and silent in the face of the most hateful rhetoric from within his own camp. He even went so far as to ask other RZ rabbis not to speak in his defense. That showed tremendous strength of character.
"For example, Rav Meir Mazuz called Rav Tzvi Tau, one of the Gedolim in the dati world, a “צדיק גמור” (completely righteous)"
Does Tau count as RZ anymore? He is basically haredi, post Gush Katif.
"I saw statistical information that seculars have 2 children per couple"
Anything over 0 for this number is far higher than it should be. We already have more than enough Yair Lapids. I'm hoping this figure is including the working class, non observant Mizrahim as "secular".
"By the way, the Arab birthrate in Israel is decreasing"
The birthrate of the Israeli Arabs is irrelevant. Unlike their brothers in Yesha, the Israeli Arabs are far more interested in fighting and murdering each other than engaging is some anti Zionist crusade.
"Unless the ultra-Orthodox become religious-nationalists"
Never gonna happen
"the religious-nationalists become ultra-Orthodox"
Yeah, no. We saw during Covid that the RZs are every bit the state worshiping zombies they were during Gush Katif. The RZs are good people, but a group that brainwashed is beyond saving. Write em' off.
"Working ultra-Orthodox Sephardim"
Shasniks aren't really haredim. Although they are trending that way without Ovadia around to continue pushing his Zionist agenda. Deri is every bit as bad, maybe worse, but he lacks the influence Ovadia had.
"Systematic entry into debt is a sin, also against the intellect, also against the Torah"
It's also the basis for the entire global financial system: take out more debt to buy plastic crap from China that ends up at the bottom of a landfill in America. When this rotten system collapses, it will be possible to build an economy based on real value and real work.
"Then they will start working. Whatever the intellect does not do, compulsion will do."
Exactly. It's a total non issue and has always been a red herring. Your typical braindead chiloni does want the haredim to "start working" but that is only because he underestimates how much the haredim do financial contribute to the state while drastically overestimating how much the haredim actually do receive. In contrast, your Israel Democracy Institute types, who know the real figures, want the haredim to remain as dependent as possible on the Israeli government because they know that Zionism is finished once the haredim become fully economically independent.
"Not to worry. Over time they will go more and more. Every year there are more."
This nonsense again. This is what happens when you just take the statements of the IDF and the Zionist media at face value instead of reading the actual figures that the IDF itself quietly publishes. First of all, Shasniks aren't real haredim so you can throw out the increased number of Shasnik recruits as evidence of haredi Zionization. Secondly, the very tiny number of non Shasnik haredim who do serve are either OTD'ers who are going to be secular in a couple of years regardless or are young family men who are taking advantage of the free career training and coming home on nights and weekends; they don't truly "join" the army so much as work for it. They certainly aren't serving in combat units and there is no sign whatsoever that the haredi hostility to doing so has lessened by one iota over the last several decades.
"This is very interesting, because it shows that among the devout dati rabbis (as opposed to the secularists), there is little resentment about Chareidim’s lack of participation in the army, the economy"
If you actually speak with Israeli chilonim, they categorically DO NOT want the haredim in their army. They are very adamant on this. The truth is, the chilonim would prefer that the RZs weren't in the army either. The whole "serve in our crappy, TikTok, army!" thing is literally 100% a stick to beat the haredim with and nothing else. It's used as code by their political leaders but Lapid and Gantz don't really mean it and their voters know that they don't mean it. In fact, currently the chilonim insist that they *never* called for the haredim to serve in the IDF. Part of the reason they can make this claim with a straight face is because they know that they never actually meant what they said about wanting the haredim to serve.
"Of course, even in this one should not despair, because within me all the souls are buried from the holy path and are about to hatch"
We'll agree to differ on this point.
In all seriousness, I agree with the point he is trying to make but in practice you can't connect with people whose values are totally opposed to your own. Here in America, when an Amish person leaves his community, his family still loves him, still speaks with him and still allow him to visit, but he is no longer permitted to have any part in community life because to allowing him to remain attached to the community would corrupt it. And you can see in the RZ sector, the more an RZ is committed to "building bridges" with the chiloni, the more of an Uncle Tom that person tends to be. There can be no question whatsoever that the positive view that the RZs have of the chilonim has had a corrosive effect on RZ society.
"However, it also doesn’t need to be overstated, once we recognize that the core hashkafos are broadly identical"
When the RZs collaborate with Yair Lapid for the explicitly stated purpose of going after the haredim, we have a very serious problem that cannot be swept under the rug. When Eitam made a deal with Lapid Sr in 2005, Eitam was just trying to save the settlements and grab a ministry. Eitam shouldn't have done what he did, but he wasn't acting out of malice.
Bennett, otoh, was willing to partner with Lapid with the intent of reducing haredi power. And while Bennett isn't even a millionth as bad as Lapid is, there is no question that Bennett desired to turn the haredi into state worshiping slaves like Bennett's own sector. Bennett was not shy about saying that this was what he wanted, either. And Bennett frequently criticized the haredi sector using language that could have come straight from Yair's mouth.
"If it is meant that they are against the state and against the army, in different degrees, half to one third and one fourth - of course we are loyal with all the depths of our soul and we will remain so, and rather we will be adding and going"
Yeah okay. I stopped reading here
otongo, were you in israel ever? you sound pretty connected to their politics (and tho i can't vouch to the truth of anything you said, you clearly have a side). where do these detailed opinions and intricate knowledge come from?
No I was never in Israel. I don't fly (I'm assuming it isn't possible to get to Israel via ship, and even my easy job wouldn't look favorably on me missing 3 months of work) and the I hate traveling. Why would I want to see a place when I can just watch a YouTube video about it? I do have some distant relatives who live in Israel who my mother managed to track down. However, they are some sect of Ukrainian haredim that even I had never heard of and when my mom did finally find one of our distant cousins, he just yelled at her for not being dressed modestly enough, at which point my mom decided to just let the matter rest and enjoy the rest of her vacation.
I used to live in Toronto which is filled with chiloni scum from Israel. There are plenty I've had the misfortune of interacting with around where I live as well (the working class Mizrahi ones are actually okay, aside from their need to remind you that they are Jewish/Israeli every 2 seconds; the upscale Ashkenazic/Gush Dan ones, otoh, are unbearable).
There even was a secular, Ashkenazi Israeli girl in my high school who earned the nickname "PLO", which drove her absolutely crazy. She was mocked not so much for being Jewish or Israeli, but because she insisted on making a huge deal about both of those things and had a really annoying fake Israeli accent (she lived in the US until she was 12 and only lived in Israel for 3 years, the accent was definitely fake. The accent mysteriously vanished in between our sophomore and junior years). She was also a psycho and possibly the most pathological liar I have ever met. Even though I still believe she is a genuinely bad, possibly even terrible, human being, I always got along with her. We developed a bit of a friendship in the aftermath of 9-11 despite hanging out with very different crowds
From 2002 through 2013 I followed Israeli politics extremely closely. I was a big Moshe Feiglin fan and would literally read every word he wrote. I came in contact with some Israeli right wingers on the old school English language Kahane message boards and I met others through Facebook. I also interacted with some Israeli chilonim online during the first haredi draft crisis. Also I play chess online so I run into Israelis there. And I have Israelis who watch my YouTube channel reach out to me from time to time.
Before some Israeli reading chimes in and tells me that I don't understand Israelis or Israeli politics because I don't live there myself, save it. I've heard it all before. I remember the debates in 2011-2013 and all the chilonim were absolutely certain that the haredim would be drafted. When I pointed out that there was literally 0 chance of that happening, they would always respond with their go to, "you don't know what you are talking about because you aren't Israeli" line. Israelis really like to use that argument.
In any case, I haven't followed Israeli politics too closely since Trump burst onto the scene in 2015 and my focus switched over to US domestic politics. I still read the Jerusalem Post or the Israeli Democracy Institute a few times a year just to remind myself how much I absolutely cannot stand Israeli chilonim, but I don't follow the day to day stuff anymore. It's not like the major parties disagree about anything anyway.
I too was a Moshe Feiglin fan and saw him speak on many occasions. I joined the Likud to support his leadership bid and was one of the 500 founding members of Zehut. A good man, but in hindsight politics doesn't suit him, because of that. He was surrounded by disloyal backstabbers (even those he recruited to join his party) save his loyal lieutenants, and the occasional sodomite propped up for lulz.
He used to drive me crazy with his constant suggestion that the Palestinians immigrate to the US and Canada. Never mind the safety of all of us Jews who live in those places.
His libertarian shtick got really old as well. And he suffered from what I call "Begin's Disease", a syndrome known to effect Israeli right wingers like Begin, Kahane and even Bibi somewhat, where the next Holocaust is always around the corner. Feiglin really seemed to believe that if he didn't become PM, millions of Jews were going to die.
I used to be very libertarian, but it is a deeply materialist ideology and I soured on it. Plus many hard-core libertarians are borderline retarded.
And capitalism in its modern incarnation is the literal flip side of communism. In the latter, the state owns all property. In the former, the banks. Surprisingly, communism was less destructive of the nations it infested than capitalism. Russia is still Russian. America, not so much.
Bibi has been claiming Iran is a clear and present danger for woldwide annihilation for decades, and people still believe him, or the claim. I've gotten to the point where I believe with reasonable certainty that nuclear weapons don't even exist.
People who take the libertarian stuff too seriously tend to become antisemites, as well. I like the rational libertarianism of Von Mises and Hayek, not the whacko, crypto Nazi libertarianism of Murray Rothbard.
Re Bibi: He sucks and he is the weakest (although certainly not the worst) leader the Jewish people have ever had, but I still kinda like him. Unlike Rabin (may his name be blotted out), Peres (see Rabin), Barak, Sharon (see Rabin and Peres), Olmert and Livni, Bibi's heart is at least in the right place, albeit in his own paranoid, narcissistic way. Bibi is basically a Jewish version of Richard Nixon.
very cool!
and how did you know that you were getting the right side of the story? (if you do have the right side...) in america i know the right and the left and i know who talks after research and who has a political bias, but that's because i'm aware of the whole story. i'm not sure i'd be comfortable with anyone in israel to feel like i'm getting the truth of the politics.
i guess if you were following closely for 11 years, that gives you time to get into it...
When I say I know Israelis, I don't say it as proof that it gives me some insight into Israeli politics. Rather, I say it to show that I am able to dislike Israelis from reasons that go *beyond* politics. Basically I'm pre-empting the whole, "most Israelis are actually really nice, it's just their leaders who are bad". That statement is false. Most working class Mizrahim are nice, but the Gantz and Lapid voters aren't just ignorant or misguided, they really are bad people and I know this because they keep moving to America (and Canada) en masse and annoying the hell out of both the Jews and the gentiles already living in those places.
I know Israeli politics because I know Israeli politics. One does not have to be American, live in America or even know any Americans to have a very thorough understanding of American politics and the same is true regarding Israeli politics. It's already been shown that most actual Israelis know nothing about Israeli politics: they were certain that the IDF would defeat Hezbollah, that the haredim would be drafted and that the IDF would crush Hamas. I knew that precisely the opposite of those things would occur because, unlike Israelis, I actually know what I'm talking about.
I kinda disagree with your premise. Many Americans have warped perceptions of America, but it's because they pick one media outlet to be their worldview. That can happen to an American who only watches CNN it fox or to an outsider who only watches these. My question was which outlets were you watching? Or were you doing actual research into archives and stuff? Otherwise it's just a construction if a one sided narrative. Not that that's a problem, I'm just curious that's all.
I've always mainly read the other side of whatever politics I'm in. So with Israel I read a lot of of Jpost, Haaretz (it used to be free, plus they would report the news before it even happened), Ynet, Maariv and the Israeli Democracy Institute. And I would speak to Israeli chilonim on Facebook or on the Internet Chess Server.
For American politics I never bothered with MSNBC or CNN, but I read Dailykos, left wing message boards and "Resistance" Twitter. Plus, I live in a family of white liberals who wouldn't shut up about Trump for the years of 2015-2020 so I was exposed to all the retardation in real time. And the thing is, my immediate family really isn't even that bad, other than my brother they don't really believe any of the stuff, they just support whatever Colbert, MSNBC and CNN tell them too but for them it is a cultural thing, not a matter of true belief. Whereas my wine aunts are the real thing.
And I reject that it is always necessary or helpful to read both sides. I had to block so many of the Twitter accounts I followed for information on the Russia Ukraine war specifically because I have no more interest in reading pro Palestinian stuff than I would have had in reading pro Nazi media during WWII. Some positions are just inherently morally illegitimate.
Israelis who emigrate largely do so for money. To paraphrase Trump, we are not sending them our best. Even if they are financially successful, many are morally unsavory.
I can deal with morally unsavory as long as it is hidden underneath a layer of charm. The Arabs are great at this but it does not seem to have worn off on the Gush Dannites.
The working class Mizrahim really do have hearts of gold, though. Yeah they can be annoying just like everyone else from the Mediterranean basin but they are just such good people, you can't help but like them
"It's also the basis for the entire global financial system: take out more debt to buy plastic crap from China that ends up at the bottom of a landfill in America. When this rotten system collapses, it will be possible to build an economy based on real value and real work."
Money is not printed. It is LOANED into existence. If all debts were paid off, there would be no money. Money (ie debt) is disappearing now.
When money supply grows, life is good. When it stagnates, so does the economy. When it decreases, you get depression and war.
That's modern economics in a nutshell.
We are now in the last scenario.
An Economics lesson from a flat earther is certainly not suspect.
Leave it to a rationalist to posit a non-existent connection. Do you have something specific to critique? No. Clearly you are a retard on economic matters.
"Money is not printed. It is LOANED into existence"
Money comes from God. It's called "gold". Or sometimes "silver". When your economy is based on fake growth that comes from loaning fake money into existence out of the ether, you get modern capitalism which is currently in its final stage of collapse.
When Weimar hyperinflated, they finally got out of it by creating a new currency based on land (which eventually transitioned into a gold backed currency once the US finally stepped in). When other countries hyperinflated, including 1980s Israel, they got out of it by creating a currency backed by the USD, which itself is derived from gold. When the USD goes bust, the US gov will have no choice but to create a new currency backed by gold. And that's all she wrote for the post WWII, perpetual debt economic model.
Although if you are merely trying to say that right now crippling deflation in the US is more likely in the short term than hyperinflation, you're probably correct. However, the US political system is so dysfunctional that I'm not certain that we can count on it. Certainly we can be sure that the US government is utterly incapable of the budget cuts that early 30's Germany or mid 80's Israel implemented.
"Money (ie debt) is disappearing now."
Not so fast: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/TCMDO
"currency backed by the USD, which itself is derived from gold."
The USD is not backed by gold anymore. Those days are long gone.
The USD was initially backed by gold. The USD's continued dominance post Bretton Woods come exclusively from its residual acceptance as a gold substitute.
No, this is incorrect.
It comes because the US ensured that the oil trade, which underpins the world economy, was transacted in USD. In addition, it controls the IMF and the World Bank, by proxy most emerging economies.
These combined factors create immense demand for USD, allowing the Fed to supply it at will (printer goes brrrr) without creating hyperinflation (until now?!?)
The dollar was redeemable in gold to sovereign states until Nixon took America off the last vestige of the gold standard in 1971.
Since then, you could buy oil in any currency you like, as it long as it was dollars. This is now changing.
Is it true he was the one against people leaving gush katif early without getting compensation? What did he say to those who lost out post-facto?
Nobody lost out anything because of that.
I have many many disagreements with him, but not this.
OK, was just asking, I am not well-informed in this.
Here is a symposium in the Gush about חרדים. I don’t remember exactly what was discussed but I don’t think they accused חרדים of collapsing the economy and not sharing in the burden of the army.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NmwggIpifB8&t=1106s&pp=ygUc15LXldepINeX16jXk9eZ150g16HXnNeZ15fXlA%3D%3D
Yeshiva Merkaz Rabbi - LOL!
Fascinating, thank you! Would love some sub headings to make it easier to follow