Rabbi Aviner on Chareidim

A revealing look at the prevalent dati attitude

I will start by acknowledging that this blog has a strong chareidi leaning, and following in the footsteps of our Gedolim, we disagree to a greater or lesser extent with the “dati” approach. However, while I cannot speak for all the other IM authors or all other chareidim, I will say that I have personal respect for many non-chareidi rabbis, as long as they broadly hold of normal Torah hashkafos (ie, they are not secularists or apostates, like some of the dear friends we discuss). And I am not the only one. For example, Rav Meir Mazuz called Rav Tzvi Tau, one of the Gedolim in the dati world, a “צדיק גמור” (completely righteous) and quoted Rav Shteinman as remarking about him “הוא חרדי יותר מכל חרדים” (He is more chareidi than all the chareidim). This, despite Rav Shteinman regularly expressing strong objections to the dati approach.

With that in mind, I think it would be interesting to see what these rabbis think about us. Here are questions and answers from the prominent dati rabbi, Rabbi Shlomo Aviner:

Will the growth of the ultra-Orthodox population lead to an economic disaster in the country?

Rabbi Shlomo Aviner

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Q: I saw statistical information that seculars have 2 children per couple, religious nationals 4.2 and ultra-Orthodox 6.5, and this will mean that in 15 years half of the country will be religious, and then most will be religious.

A: I thought the birth numbers were higher. But this is also very gratifying. By the way, the Arab birthrate in Israel is decreasing and the Jewish birthrate is increasing, especially in Judea and Samaria.

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Q: The percentage of ultra-Orthodox will also increase...

A: Unless the ultra-Orthodox become religious-nationalists and the religious-nationalists become ultra-Orthodox and no longer know who is against whom...

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Q: But increasing the number of ultra-Orthodox in the country could bring economic disaster to the country, since they don't work?

A: Not accurate. Working ultra-Orthodox Sephardim. Chassidim - workers. Lithuanians - some work and some study Torah.

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Q: But the ultra-Orthodox-Lithuanians have an extreme ideal not to work but to study.

A: This is also not accurate. They used to work. But after the holocaust in which so many Torah students perished, the ultra-Orthodox Israeli elders followed the instruction that now it is necessary to study at any cost in order to rebuild the Torah world. But little by little they do work.

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Q: Is there no goal to have the most scholars in the nation of Israel?

A: Of course. May everyone be a scholar. But there is a professional scholar and there is a scholar with a different profession.

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Q: In the meantime, there are many Lithuanian students - yes many - who study Torah and find themselves in very difficult financial situations. They claim: eat a mouthful of salt and drink water sparingly and sleep on the earth!

A: In principle this is true. If that Torah student is really willing to be content with a handful of salt and sleep on the floor, and his wife is also willing, then Yasher Kocham, G-d bless them.

But if he also wants to buy an apartment, nice clothes and go on trips - then you can't dance at both weddings. You can't just roll over gemachs, and spend expenses without coverage.

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Q: So what is the solution?

A: Reduce spending and increase income, so that there is no growing debt. Systematic entry into debt is a sin, also against the intellect, also against the Torah, also against Shalom Beit.

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Q: And what about faith in G-d?

A: If he is really willing to hand over his soul with a mouthful of salt, then God will come to help in this situation.

But you can't just rely on the saying "we'll get along", "don't let the facts confuse us". It is an imagination of a lie. But in such a case, you should go out to work, and not rely on the miracle.

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Q: In the Gemara Brachos, Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai believes that one should study Torah frequently and God will help?

A: Indeed, the Rashbi said to study Torah day and night, and Rabbi Ishmael said to work and to add setting times to the Torah. Many did as the Rashbi and it did not work for them, many did as Rabbi Ishmael and it worked for them.

Therefore, frequent Torah study is a way for individuals, and working is a way for many.

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Q: So those individuals can act according to Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai?

A: They have not yet reached the rank of Rashbi. Look at the miracle of making a living, we the little ones are not at the rank of Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai and we must go out to work and not rely on a miracle.

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Q: Let's get back to our point: what will happen to the state's economy when the percentage of ultra-Orthodox increases?

A: Then they will start working. Whatever the intellect does not do, compulsion will do.

By the way, it is not enough to simply work to discharge their duties, but you need a respectable profession, where you earn a lot of money, because they have large families. And of course such professions will also bring blessing to the country. But all this is not possible by force, but by patience and trust.

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Q: And what about the army, after all, few ultra-Orthodox go to the army?

A: Not to worry. Over time they will go more and more. Every year there are more. Only in the last year, due to the compulsion decree, their number has decreased dramatically. He is what we said: not by force, but by patience and trust.

This is very interesting, because it shows that among the devout dati rabbis (as opposed to the secularists), there is little resentment about Chareidim’s lack of participation in the army, the economy, etc, which is consistent with what many other devout datiim have declared. Rather there is an appreciation for our strengths, and a hope that we will change (and he is right that our society will change based on the needs of the generation, just as it always has, and it constantly is. The question is if it will change precisely in the way that he envisions- which I doubt!)

I believe this is because he broadly has of the same core hashkafos as regular yeshivish chareidim. That is, he believes unequivocally that Torah and service of Hashem is the most important thing in the world, consistent with what other dati rabbis have stated on the matter. He is faithful to our Mesorah and has unquestioning trust in both the Torah sheb’sav and the Torah she’baal Peh, and the unchanging nature of the devar Hashem. The only disagreement, in the most simple terms, is to what extent one should embrace a secular Zionist state and what significance it has. Our mesorah is that it should at best be kept at arm’s length, whereas these datiim hold it should be welcomed enthusiastically and without reservation. This dispute is important and should definitely not be understated, and I have no problem unequivocally upholding our mesorah that they are incorrect. However, it also doesn’t need to be overstated, once we recognize that the core hashkafos are broadly identical.

And Rabbi Aviner makes this even clearer in another question and answer session:

Q: There is a feeling that many parts of the religious-nationalist public are becoming more and more ultra-Orthodox, and this has been officially approved by the party together.

A: In politics, one must cooperate with others even if one does not agree with them on everything, because a partisan party is useless. There are secularists in Likud and Beit Yehudi, and that does not make the religious-nationalists there secular. On the contrary, the connection with the ultra-Orthodox is more natural, and our rabbi Rabbi Zvi Yehuda already said that in matters of parties "I am a friend to everyone who sees you" (Tehilim 119-63).

Q: But isn't the distance between us and the ultra-Orthodox greater than that between us and the secular?

A: No. We and the ultra-Orthodox have the same goal, which is the revival of the Holy Spirit in the nation, but we are divided in the ways to reach it. But the secularists have a different trend. Of course, even in this one should not despair, because within me all the souls are buried from the holy path and are about to hatch.

Q: But reality shows that we had greater tensions with the ultra-Orthodox?

A: That is not true. praying together studying together. In general, the ultra-orthodox public is not homogeneous. There are extreme Haredim further away from us, and there are moderate Haredim such as Shas men and more.

Q: Let's leave politics and concentrate on deep questions. Are we not on the verge of adopting the ultra-orthodox ideology?

A: Depends on what. If it is meant that they are against the state and against the army, in different degrees, half to one third and one fourth - of course we are loyal with all the depths of our soul and we will remain so, and rather we will be adding and going. We are in love with Israel and the country, with the settlement and the army, and we also practice a sales permit in Shemita. More and more officers are coming out of us. It is true that our country has many shortcomings, we are not blind, but we do not despair, we are full of joy and optimism, we have absolute faith that salvation is coming. And in the words of Rabbi Kook: "After the many flaws we see in our general ways of life in our generation in general and in Eretz Yisrael in particular, we must feel that we are being reborn" (Orot p. ez). Therefore, in this sense we are not ultra-Orthodox. On the contrary, we are more and more connected to the state, more and more state-owned. We are happy that we won.

Q: But in another sense we seem to be becoming more ultra-Orthodox, in the sense of various chumrot.

A: First of all, chumrot is not a negative thing in itself. This is the degree of withdrawal from the world and Hasidism in Mesilat Isharim. But it must be carefully considered that they deserve to be machmir and that this is not chumra that brings about leniency, as explained there in chapter 20, the chapter on the weight of Hasidism. But mainly, there is a deception here, and those who have neither studied Torah nor studied halacha, treat complete and severe laws as if they were chumrot. This is the issue of the degree of cleanliness in the Mesilat Isharim book.

Q: For example?

A: He gives three examples: slander. People think that keeping one's tongue is harshness, but it is not, slander is a terrible sin. But will we blame the one who keeps his tongue that he is ultra-Orthodox?! Second example: robbery. A person allows himself to cheat in business, as well as nowadays to evade taxes. And that the person with payment morals will be considered ultra-Orthodox who withdraws from religious-nationalism?! Of course not. Third example: modesty. See there at length in chapter 11, that the separation of men and women, that is, a very separate society, is absolute law. For example, separate educational institutions are not hardware but law, and at the second conference of the Mizrahi it was decided to establish two separate youth movements: Ben Zion and Bennet Zion. After all, a separate youth movement is not against Zionism.

That's the rule, we don't go according to any orthodoxy but according to the Torah.

Q: And yet why did you wake up only now? Why didn't the national-religious public think about it before?

A: Yes, Maran Rabbi Kook would have been happy if the Mizrachi would have taken on the leadership of the national revival, but he writes several times that this is unrealistic, because of the inherent compromise of the Mizrachi. That is why he considered bringing the ultra-Orthodox closer to the revival movement, the so-called "Jerusalem flag", but this too was unsuccessful. In the end, he was able to combine devotion to the Torah and devotion to the resurrection - which truly both have one divine source - and this is the Rabbi's center yeshiva. In the beginning there were only a few, but over time it grew, and many yeshivahs were born from it, high yeshivahs and seder yeshivahs, high school yeshivas and Torah Talmuds, midrashes and colleges, and now there is a huge public in Israel in the way of Maran Rabbi Kook and the Yeshiva Merkaz Rabbi, in different shades, which is growing , also people of Torah, also people of work, also people of the army. We did not wake up suddenly, but we are constantly waking up.

Q: And the denial of modern culture is not extremism?

A: Depends on what. If it is atheistic, it is not extremism. If it is promiscuous, it is not extremism. If it is secular, it is not extremism. Of course, we like the secular people, but we don't like secularism. There is constant erosion so we don't feel how spoiled the surrounding culture is. If a person really wants to know what is extreme and what is true Judaism, he should read the book Kitzur Shulchan Aruch and the book Mesilat Isharim.

Q: But some claim that everything is fine and dandy but not realistic these days.

A: This is a well-known PKL claim: the Lord of the world is not realistic, the Torah is not realistic, purity is not realistic. It is true that there is a tension between divine guidance and reality, and it didn’t start now, but from the first sin of Adam. There is a built-in reason for this, which is that man was created with a good inclination and an evil inclination, but the solution is not to adapt the devar Hashem to reality, but to adapt the reality to the devar Hashem.

Q: And is it possible?

A: Of course. Do not despair of the people of Israel, do not despair of the virtue of Israel. We do not even despair of the human race, as we end our prayer praising our Lord.

Q: If so, why do we hear such harsh statements lately against all kinds of laws that come to make religion easier. Are these the laws of our country?

A: Our country is beloved, our country is holy, but this is not a guarantee that every law is good and fair. We have a responsibility to the nation, not only in the short term but also in the long term. If they stifle the spirit of the nation, it will become ill and badly damaged. This fight against legislation that harms the Jewish character of the country, is not to save the Torah, but to save the country. The Torah is the elixir of life for the individual and the general. It is the order of man, the order of the nation, the order of being, as the Maharal says. We must also add to what we said before: What in the national-religious public is learning more and more Torah is Haredi?! The Torah belongs only to the Haredim?! Only an ultra-Orthodox?! Is the fire of God's love ultra-Orthodox?!

No. This is Torah. The Torah belongs to all of us. The Torah commanded us, Moses permitted the community of Jacob.

May the achdus of Klal Yisrael increase more and more, and may we merit the Geulah speedily in our days.