What's astounding is that Natan thinks he brilliantly discovered this question. The Ramban in Sha'ar Hagmul famously deals with how although we know that everything is decreed min hashomayim, many times it's very hard for us to discern how that is so and sometimes life seems to be based on very 'natural' circumstances.
This is in fact one of the central messages of Sefer Iyov.
I think everyone agrees think that not too many people are on the level today to say that absolutely no hishtadlus is necessary. This was the machlokes discussed in Brachos between R' Yishmael and RSHBY. And we see that even in Chazal's time, R' Yishmael's view was the accepted practice. Although even his followers advocated for minimum hishtadlus, such as working only for two months a year and learning the rest of the time.
That being said, from my own personal friends, I can think of one guy I was with in Yeshiva who was definitely not the brightest, nor the most assertive type. He was kinda always at the edge of the pack. He now owns a mortgage company and according to a mutual friend is earning in the upper seven digits - annually. And I can think of another friend who is exceptionally smart, people savvy, determined, and aggressive, and nothing ever seems to work out for him. He is always going from one thing to the next.
The way I learned it recently was that hishtadlus is the illusion by which we have the free will to believe our effort makes a difference. There have been times in my life when I have to work very hard for parnassah, and there have been other times where I barely have to lift my pinky. It's not meaningless. At the very least, it's an ongoing test. That's par for retards, putting words into our mouths to bolster their pathetic arguments.
I've experienced personally that more hishtadlus does not equate to more parnassa.
Nathan's latest post, as is his style, is a continuation from the last post, with the idea that he has further zingers to share that no one has considered before. I often wonder if I'm reading the same Gemara as him, given how wildly he seems to single out certain bits and exclude others, for no reason other than bias.
There is no point in even commenting at his forum, even absent a ban.
It's not hard. In the midbar, we all collected mahn. We are told very clearly that, there at least, there was a direct inverse correlation between the level of tzadkus of an individual, and the level of hishtadlus one had to expend to secure his daily portion.
That this correlation has been blurred since does not make it irrelevant. There could be all sorts of reasons where one could be required to increase one's effort to get his allotment today. And it could be that one's din gives a certain proportion of one's earnings based on increased effort. We have no idea. It is a complete mystery, except in the midbar, but as has been noted here, there are people who make much and barely work, and people who work hard, and barely earn. And both could be, to our eyes, similarly endowed with their piety.
What he does, here, and repeatedly, is to completely correlate hishtadlus and parnassa, absent anything. It's neither rationalist, nor Judaism. Obviously they are related in some way. Some level of effort is required of us today, as has been repeatedly "conceded" by us. But all of our parnassa, every last bit of it, comes to us because Hashem wills it to be so. Even the extra money for extra effort.
"Chareidim speak in the language of Emunah, which is the language of the Torah that they study and practice"
They may speak it, but they do not practice it. No. Other than a relatively few individuals, chareidim run around for parnossoh just like every other man. They may be limited practically , for example they have no skills to apply to a solicitor' firm, but when it comes to latest Amazon shtick, 'tumuling' about a new kollel opening in the neighborhood or the latest government aid program, they are there.
Like everybody else, they can hear a dollar bill landing on a plush carpet a mile away.....bitachon my foot.
It's a bit humorous the vitriol each side here is spewing.
But taking a step back. The Charedi community and Modern Orthodox Frum community aren't that far apart, the Chareidim are just 50-75 years behind the Modern Orthodox, but they'll come around.
Points:
1. In ~1945, Rav Aharon Kotler rejected the notion that Lakewood Yeshiva should partner with a secular college (see the Mishpacha special from a couple weeks ago). The job of Bnei Torah is to sit and learn full time. This is quite in line with Rabbi Dessler's famous letter in Chelek 3 about the role of Eastern European yeshivos (in contradistinction to the Yekkish method which he was attacking) – it was to produce Gedolim, and anyone who wanted to pursue a profession should be distanced from the Yeshiva, so that this “off the derech” person’s interests don’t contaminate his friends. So what should a person do if he’s not cut out for a life of learning? According to Rav Dessler: become a Chenvani (storekeeper). As Lakewood has hired professional career counselors over the past several years (see Dovid Lichtenstein’s recent podcast on a Yeshiva’s role in preparing people for a life after) – safe to say that the Chareidi community has done a 180 degree turn. Yes, there are still differences between the YU beis medrash and Ner Yisrael, but the philosophical schism has gone away. For the modern orthodox frum – their hashkafa hasn’t changed one bit. It’s been Torah with Parnassah/Da’as/Madah (whatever you want to call it) all along. And in Israel, the blossoming of Charadei colleges/technical schools etc have dramatically redrawn the socioeconomic (and hashkafic) map, and brought Chareidim much more in line with the frum Dati Leumi world for 99% of their life.
2. Leadership of the Chareidi community in pre-war Europe was stridently against Jews leaving Europe for then Palestine. Religious Zionists believed the development of Israel was a gigantic divine Bracha. While his father-in-law Rav Isser Zalman Melzer advised people to escape the Nazi threat by fleeing to Palestine, Kav Kotler pushed against it until there was no alternative (as laid out in the Mishpacha article). Safe to say the world came around to the Religious Zionists’ view that Israel was a better destination than Europe.
3. When the Medina was established, Chareidim refused to join the government. I believe it was the Chazon Ish who said that even if the Medina was run al-pi halacha, it would still be assur. Fast forward 30 years and all of a sudden it was no longer assur. So now the Chareidi parties sit alongside the Religious Zionist parties. You’ll tell me one is a lechatchila and one is a be’dieved. But something really treif never becomes be’dieved kosher. So either hashkafa changed, the reality changed, or someone is being dishonest. Not sure how the reality changed as the Chazon Ish said the Medina was treif at its core.
4. And on the other side, there’s a blossoming of Torah learnings and observance in the modern orthodox community that’s probably due to the influence from the yeshivish world. I’d guess that a very large percentage of Young Israel balebatim are kovea a significant amount of time each day learning Daf Yomi – something that was uncommon in the Chareidi professional (working) world 40 years ago. So the modern orthodox are just a few decades behind, but they’re catching up.
My prediction: in 50 years or so, the majority of people living in Israel will be Shomrei Torah u’Mitzvos. There will be far fewer observant people left in Chutz La’aretz. The dream of “kibbutz galy’os” will be in its later stages at that point (it’ll be harder to deny than it is today). Inside Israel, there’s going to be no one left to pay taxes unless the Chareidim join the workforce en masse, which they will, and they will be getting the same professional degrees as non-Charedim (even if it’s in separate schools), and they will work alongside non-Chareidim. As the dominant demographic that’s in charge, the Charedim will fully buy into the religious & hashkafic value of Medinat Yisrael. Maybe 5 Iyar won’t be celebrated, but the day that Charedim instituted Torah rule in Eretz Yisrael will be. For anyone with a broad perspective of history, the 2 days are basically the same.
What's astounding is that Natan thinks he brilliantly discovered this question. The Ramban in Sha'ar Hagmul famously deals with how although we know that everything is decreed min hashomayim, many times it's very hard for us to discern how that is so and sometimes life seems to be based on very 'natural' circumstances.
https://www.sefaria.org/Sha'ar_Ha'Gemul_of_the_Ramban.1?lang=bi
This is in fact one of the central messages of Sefer Iyov.
I think everyone agrees think that not too many people are on the level today to say that absolutely no hishtadlus is necessary. This was the machlokes discussed in Brachos between R' Yishmael and RSHBY. And we see that even in Chazal's time, R' Yishmael's view was the accepted practice. Although even his followers advocated for minimum hishtadlus, such as working only for two months a year and learning the rest of the time.
That being said, from my own personal friends, I can think of one guy I was with in Yeshiva who was definitely not the brightest, nor the most assertive type. He was kinda always at the edge of the pack. He now owns a mortgage company and according to a mutual friend is earning in the upper seven digits - annually. And I can think of another friend who is exceptionally smart, people savvy, determined, and aggressive, and nothing ever seems to work out for him. He is always going from one thing to the next.
The way I learned it recently was that hishtadlus is the illusion by which we have the free will to believe our effort makes a difference. There have been times in my life when I have to work very hard for parnassah, and there have been other times where I barely have to lift my pinky. It's not meaningless. At the very least, it's an ongoing test. That's par for retards, putting words into our mouths to bolster their pathetic arguments.
I've experienced personally that more hishtadlus does not equate to more parnassa.
Nathan's latest post, as is his style, is a continuation from the last post, with the idea that he has further zingers to share that no one has considered before. I often wonder if I'm reading the same Gemara as him, given how wildly he seems to single out certain bits and exclude others, for no reason other than bias.
There is no point in even commenting at his forum, even absent a ban.
It's not hard. In the midbar, we all collected mahn. We are told very clearly that, there at least, there was a direct inverse correlation between the level of tzadkus of an individual, and the level of hishtadlus one had to expend to secure his daily portion.
That this correlation has been blurred since does not make it irrelevant. There could be all sorts of reasons where one could be required to increase one's effort to get his allotment today. And it could be that one's din gives a certain proportion of one's earnings based on increased effort. We have no idea. It is a complete mystery, except in the midbar, but as has been noted here, there are people who make much and barely work, and people who work hard, and barely earn. And both could be, to our eyes, similarly endowed with their piety.
What he does, here, and repeatedly, is to completely correlate hishtadlus and parnassa, absent anything. It's neither rationalist, nor Judaism. Obviously they are related in some way. Some level of effort is required of us today, as has been repeatedly "conceded" by us. But all of our parnassa, every last bit of it, comes to us because Hashem wills it to be so. Even the extra money for extra effort.
"Chareidim speak in the language of Emunah, which is the language of the Torah that they study and practice"
They may speak it, but they do not practice it. No. Other than a relatively few individuals, chareidim run around for parnossoh just like every other man. They may be limited practically , for example they have no skills to apply to a solicitor' firm, but when it comes to latest Amazon shtick, 'tumuling' about a new kollel opening in the neighborhood or the latest government aid program, they are there.
Like everybody else, they can hear a dollar bill landing on a plush carpet a mile away.....bitachon my foot.
It's a bit humorous the vitriol each side here is spewing.
But taking a step back. The Charedi community and Modern Orthodox Frum community aren't that far apart, the Chareidim are just 50-75 years behind the Modern Orthodox, but they'll come around.
Points:
1. In ~1945, Rav Aharon Kotler rejected the notion that Lakewood Yeshiva should partner with a secular college (see the Mishpacha special from a couple weeks ago). The job of Bnei Torah is to sit and learn full time. This is quite in line with Rabbi Dessler's famous letter in Chelek 3 about the role of Eastern European yeshivos (in contradistinction to the Yekkish method which he was attacking) – it was to produce Gedolim, and anyone who wanted to pursue a profession should be distanced from the Yeshiva, so that this “off the derech” person’s interests don’t contaminate his friends. So what should a person do if he’s not cut out for a life of learning? According to Rav Dessler: become a Chenvani (storekeeper). As Lakewood has hired professional career counselors over the past several years (see Dovid Lichtenstein’s recent podcast on a Yeshiva’s role in preparing people for a life after) – safe to say that the Chareidi community has done a 180 degree turn. Yes, there are still differences between the YU beis medrash and Ner Yisrael, but the philosophical schism has gone away. For the modern orthodox frum – their hashkafa hasn’t changed one bit. It’s been Torah with Parnassah/Da’as/Madah (whatever you want to call it) all along. And in Israel, the blossoming of Charadei colleges/technical schools etc have dramatically redrawn the socioeconomic (and hashkafic) map, and brought Chareidim much more in line with the frum Dati Leumi world for 99% of their life.
2. Leadership of the Chareidi community in pre-war Europe was stridently against Jews leaving Europe for then Palestine. Religious Zionists believed the development of Israel was a gigantic divine Bracha. While his father-in-law Rav Isser Zalman Melzer advised people to escape the Nazi threat by fleeing to Palestine, Kav Kotler pushed against it until there was no alternative (as laid out in the Mishpacha article). Safe to say the world came around to the Religious Zionists’ view that Israel was a better destination than Europe.
3. When the Medina was established, Chareidim refused to join the government. I believe it was the Chazon Ish who said that even if the Medina was run al-pi halacha, it would still be assur. Fast forward 30 years and all of a sudden it was no longer assur. So now the Chareidi parties sit alongside the Religious Zionist parties. You’ll tell me one is a lechatchila and one is a be’dieved. But something really treif never becomes be’dieved kosher. So either hashkafa changed, the reality changed, or someone is being dishonest. Not sure how the reality changed as the Chazon Ish said the Medina was treif at its core.
4. And on the other side, there’s a blossoming of Torah learnings and observance in the modern orthodox community that’s probably due to the influence from the yeshivish world. I’d guess that a very large percentage of Young Israel balebatim are kovea a significant amount of time each day learning Daf Yomi – something that was uncommon in the Chareidi professional (working) world 40 years ago. So the modern orthodox are just a few decades behind, but they’re catching up.
My prediction: in 50 years or so, the majority of people living in Israel will be Shomrei Torah u’Mitzvos. There will be far fewer observant people left in Chutz La’aretz. The dream of “kibbutz galy’os” will be in its later stages at that point (it’ll be harder to deny than it is today). Inside Israel, there’s going to be no one left to pay taxes unless the Chareidim join the workforce en masse, which they will, and they will be getting the same professional degrees as non-Charedim (even if it’s in separate schools), and they will work alongside non-Chareidim. As the dominant demographic that’s in charge, the Charedim will fully buy into the religious & hashkafic value of Medinat Yisrael. Maybe 5 Iyar won’t be celebrated, but the day that Charedim instituted Torah rule in Eretz Yisrael will be. For anyone with a broad perspective of history, the 2 days are basically the same.
What's your answer to his question?