“But try to explain the unimaginable greatness of a Rishon to an outsider who's never experienced any levels of greatness ever - it's a completely futile exercise (and conversing with outsiders here on blogs has been one of the clearest demonstrations of this. To them, it’s all fake, Torah greatness is fake, kedushah is fake, spirituality is fake, etc.) And try to go further and explain the chashivus of a mitzvah? The chomer of an aveira? Levels of growth in Avodas Hashem? Forget about it! They won't even know what you're trying to say.”
Those same rishonim you are talking about were able to coherently explain to outsiders all those same concepts, and although they might not have persuaded the other side, they were able to debate on universal terms. Whereas you cannot explain your concepts in any terms that an outsider can begin to understand. I think this says something more about the basis of your position and less than you think about the flaws of opponents.
You're welcome to read the Rambam and try to figure it out. So far the only ones successful at understanding him were the yirei shamayim. You can try the hakdama to orchos tzaddikim. The mesilas yesharim's moshol with the maze. And so on
I don't think he would allow that. it's not about being a TC per se; it's more about having a yediah in the world of the esoteric and it falls under the category of אין דורשים בשנים ורק דרך ראשי פרקים ורק לתלמידים הראויים לכך. No Rebbi can give that over without the talmid fulfilling the requirements himself. You were sort of right in your first comment
I'm not sure what you're suggesting, they the Rambam and ramchal were making things up?
It's taka not a secret. To anyone who put in the time in the BM, these things are fairly obvious actually. I'm just saying that to those who didn't take the time, there's almost nothing we can say to them to explain our side. It's almost like debating a flat Earther who will have a response to every single point you make and his mind is made up prior because of a certain group he identifies with. There's little you can say that will change his mind, but to any insider, he's so obviously wrong
The irony! Have you considered that your mind is made up prior because of the group you identify with?
The difference is that the round earthers have BETTER arguments than 'it's obvious to anybody who is a round earther what the position is' - they have sources, photos, scientific evidence the whole gamut, not 'its just fairly obvious' - do you not get the difference?
It sounds ironic. To an outsider. A better analogy is trying to explain to an atheist why were not indoctrinated. As I said in the article, the outsider will say we brainwashed and whatever and we probably can't convince him otherwise so this conversation is completely futile. All I can suggest, one again, is get a Rebbi or chavrusa for a few years to teach you the ropes. Gl!
Actually, I would say round earth is a perfectly good analogy. The round earthers think they have better arguments than the flat earthers, and the flat earthers think they have better arguments than the round earthers. Just like the Shomrei Torah think they have better arguments than the kofrim. I understood your point is that it is impossible to explain round earth to anybody who has no understanding of geometry, astronomy, geography, etc, and who refuses to learn it and dismisses it all as "fake" (sorry Shimshon if you are reading this. We will have to disagree.) It's a good analogy.
It's all a matter of bitichon. Which is why chinuch is so important, chinuch is a form of brainwashing. Playing Uncle Moishy and 613 torah avenue to a three year old is indoctrination. We believe its justified because we have bitochin what we do is correct
Had the Saducees won the battle, the talmud would look very different. We have bitichon that the perushim were correct which is why Hashem let them win, but we have no way of ever knowing for sure.
Those “yarei shamayim” have no clue how to learn the rambam, they refuse to even give him the respect of learning all his seforim. I’ve learned rambam from both angles and chareidim do whatever it takes to distort what he says/means. I’m not saying ppl like slifkin understand the rambam, they might be the only ppl who butcher him more than chareidim. To even think to bring mesillas yesharim into this argument proves the point, Ramchal and Rambam fundamentally disagree.
You're highly mistaken. They agree about 99% and disagree about some details. Try reading about how the Rambam talks about ahava and yiraah and teshuva and tefilah and connecting with Hashem and nevuah.
I'm not saying there aren't *major* differences but I don't think you appreciate how similar they are.
Are you being purposefully obtuse? No one does what the rambam think you should do as ahavas hashem. And hilchos teshuva is chock full of a philosophy that would get you kicked out of any chareidi yeshiva. This is exactly what I mean, ignoring the rambam yet pretending you take him seriously. And again, they don’t even look at morah nevuchim so how is it even possible they agree with 99% of what they don’t know? The disagreements are not “minor details”. They are deep fundamental arguments.
"And hilchos teshuva is chock full of a philosophy that would get you kicked out of any chareidi yeshiva" let's start with this. This is ridiculous statement. If you mean Hilchos yesodei hatorah, yes the Rambam spends the best of two perokim on his philosophical views which we kinda ignore - but not because they are heretical rather because THEY ARE FALSE. The Rambam followed his Aristo but we don't. We have much better science and Aristo was dead wrong in a ton of stuff. Not sure why we should be spending time on fake science. I'm not saying it wasn't genius, and there are even plenty of things to learn from his science which are full of insights into the spiritual essence of nature, but why would a yeshiva encourage this chelek? Also, it wouldn't get him kicked out of a Chareidi yeshiva if he learned this, not at all- they just don't specifically and positively encourage it because, again, why would and should they?
The Moreh is a different story, and then also they wouldn't frown upon him - UNLESS he was starting down the wrong path, using the Rambam as his springboard, because gee! That's often what happens to people who read the Moreh before they know what the Rambam was truly about! And that's often why these young people are reading the Moreh in the first place! This is not a matter of distorting the Rambam, no siree! It's actually a matter of giving him the kavod he deserves by listening to what he himself says that the Moreh is not for the masses. So instead of picking and choosing which statements of the Rambam to see want to follow, we follow everything, including the fact that we understand that his Moreh is only for a very specific intended audience.
And if you meant Hilchos teshuva, not really sure what you're referring to except the discussion about yediah and bechira in perek hei? They happily teach that tho, so you're welcome to clarify.
And now to the crux of the matter: in our service of God there are a few levels (and within some those there are infinite levels). One level is to be an עובד השם, which means following the halachos, being careful not to mess up the מצוות מעשיות by learning halacha, and on top of this is learning the halachos without missing a beat from the gemara and rishonim which is hard work and takes hours of effort on every piece until אסוקי שמעתתא אליבא דהלכתא. This part of avoda is more academic, but is supposed to follow the path of יראה as we learn the ספרי יראה alongside the גמרא (and when appreciating that it's תורת השי"ת this is kind of obvious anyways but we need extra chizuk as we get caught up in the day to day).
There's a second חלק of עבודה which is higher, and it grows כפי היראה, ad that is the חלק of אהבה. We learn about אהבה even in the beginning before mastering the חלק היראה; it's a מצוה, actually a bunch of מצוות and it's of the מצוות תמידיות and it's a שורש העבודה but to truly appreciate אהבה one needs to first grow in תורה ויראה. A child can love Hashem, but a איש שלם has the capacity to love Hashem way way more. In balancing these two areas we find a מחלוקת between the Rambam and the "Mekubalim."
The Kuzari is mighty clear that אהבה is important and it's important to grow in love and connection to Hashem, but that is primarily for the next world. This world is mainly for תורה ויראה. Of course, even in the world of the Kuzari there is מקום for אנשי מעלה to grow infinitely in אהבה and נביאים do just that, but it's, so to speak, a מעלה, not the ikkur avoda.
According to the Rambam, however, אהבה is *everything*. That is our growth towards עולם הבא which is the תכלית without strings. To the more mainstream opinion, of the מקובלים, not the חוקרים, the main thing is the מצוות and the making *this world* a place for the שכינה to rest. (The famous Gr'a beginning of שה"ש basically says this is why עוה"ב is barely mentioned in the Torah, because the תורה and עוה"ז is about the מצוות and the ביהמ"ק and the השראת השכינה down here).
The reason the Rambam doesn't have this chelek is because in his view, all perfection is to do with trying to fight the גוף and being מבטל it's כח and winning over it. The מקובלים back the idea that the גוף is ultimately a tool for קדושה, not just an "in the way."
This is why the Rambam discusses the מצוות as "perfection of the body and society." He meant nothing like Rabbi doctor means by this. He means becoming *completely* separate from the body into a world of שכל ונשמה. Perfection of body and society to him meant COMPLETELY eradicating any form of earthly pleasures as the mind becomes more dominant and its pleasures become more real (like when making a million dollars, the schwarma isn't as pleasurable, so too when getting involved in the world of אהבה, there is no תאוה for pizza and comedy and דבר אחר). This is not at all what the rationalists mean when they misquote the Rambam, or rather quote him totally out of context; while a true יראי שמים who has a שייכות to אהבה can appreciate the Rambam for what he actually meant.
So who understands the Rambam better? The Ramchal or the rationalist? Just because the Ramchal goes beyond the Rambam and disagrees with him, does not mean he twisted any one of his words. אדרבה, the rationalist who denies that levels of אהבה even exist, they're the ones twisting the Rambam, majorly, albeit unknowingly.
"but not because they are heretical rather because THEY ARE FALSE."
That's enough to get you banned a million times over. Charedim do not say that something written by a rishon is false. Ever. All hell broke lose here when I insinuated that Rashi may have said a few false things.
8-10 perakim have a very philosophical view of reward and lishma, and essentially denies any typical idea of punishment. Once this is understood, it obviously changes what teshuva is too, where teshuva is just changing from actions that harm/prevent the development of intellect to actions that are develop the intellect.
Yeah. I don't see the 'levels of Avodas Hashem' in the minyan factories, packed bein hazmanim, with 'benei torah' rolling into shacharis at 10am.
Maybe 'levels in avodas Hashem' means the increasing height of streimels and spodiks, complete with new fangled holy 'spitzin'. I know of a rov of a shul who everry couple of years has to buy a new streimel, because pass nischt for most of his kehilla to have taller streimels than him.
Fake. All fake (ok maybe 99.5% fake). There are some chareidim who are truely holy.
Here we go again. Testes projecting his personal problems on every black hat. Hey, man, time to get out of London and Manchester and go find a Beis Medrash to sit and study in. Maybe it's not too late! Gateshead too cold for you?
My point is even if you did see this, please define it in universal terms the way almost all rishonim attempted to do. If you can’t, then your basis might just be some “fluffy spiritual stuff” and not based on any true ideas.
You very much appereciated post churnsn up a question about what is perhaps our primary role as a people; what does it take to be לאור גוים? Are we indeed to be a small candle in the corner if a darkening room, whose true purpose is only properly appreciated once that room realizes it has no other light but ours? Or are we to actively ignite the wicks of the world. Does the later seem so scary because we fear becoming responsible for any subsequent mishandling of that light? - Yet what is it to be 'as a light,' if NOT to be responsible. And the truth is, history has shown, even if we don't take responsibility, we are nonetheless held responsible. Is it time to stop running from that honor?
Thanks for taking the time reading and commenting!
I don't see what we are expected to do to be quite a shining light. They think we're just heads buried in the sand following antiquated wisdom that has been or with the wind for centuries.
I guess the answer is that we do what we can, and those with public influence in any way (including any interaction with a non Jew) should be making a kiddush Hashem however possible, but ultimately, those sitting in their corners quietly studying God's word with their yeshivos are, in a way, the ones bringing the light in more than anyone else. And that is exactly what He asks us to do.
What a beautiful post. Really shows Kavod and a m'urav im habrios approach to frum non-Chareidim. "Anyone that disagrees with our entire worldview is a kofer!" "fighting wars in this world is non-Toradik!". Shkoyach.
*I* don't think they are mutually exclusive. Not at all. I'm all for a good compromise where we can have both maalos at the same time. I think there are plenty of ways to do it.
The issue is that those who don't like (understand) our mehalech truly think the yeshiva system is unnecessary and wholly unimportant. They think we're a bunch of lazy drags on society. To them, the highest value is to be part of the world join the workforce and be a part of the army. We think these are important but not even close to the importance of torah. So long as they are going to evade the very reason for our differences in the first place, and kick the can down the road to discuss a point which only has any merit in the first place if yeshivos are important, I'm not sure how a conversation with them us even possible. They're not willing to talk to us with our givens. So we retreat and fend for ourselves.
It becomes mutually exclusive once *they* inhibit the ability for conversation. As I wrote in the next article, as fight is like a stream.
I consider the direction ללמוד לעשות as primary . We follow the halachah setting time for Torah as adequate. There also are different areas of learning. Both the Rambam and Ramchal believed it was necessary to learn "Science". The Rambam also emphasized learning philosophy to better refine the understanding of G-d and both believed that these studies would increase fear of G-d.
The Torah is overwhelmingly about mitzvot and aveirot dealing with everyday life .Learning Torah is just one aspect of connecting to G-d. A Torah life is not in the Beit HaMedrash. It is the Jew relating to G-d in all aspects of life.The Torah was created to be fulfilled in this world.In Chassidut they say that through the Torah one brings down spirituality to the physical world.
True that the torah is largely about living in the world (although I can't ignore that this is only "secondary" according to the standard Chareidi, but I'll give this point to you which is well sourced as a perfectly valid approach).
But not true regarding the fact that torah is just another aspect. Torah is our lifeblood and it is our only sanity. There is an *issur* (take that with all the force possible) of bitul torah, even if you just worked for hours and hours that day. This is an intrecate topic, but hardly near the way you're simplifying it.
This is fantastic, Jerry. You have highlighted the key point in our debate with Slifkin HaRasha. Haredi society is not about 'voting' or 'sharing the burden' or 'integration', and even not the value of secular education. We too can all write revealing articles about how Haredi civil society can be improved in numerous ways. But Slifkin cannot address the central focus of our world - the peshat in Rebbe Akiva Eiger, how Tosafos argues with the Rashba, and whether the חיוב בור is להבלו or לחבטו. He and his friends don't really care about any of that, and have no interest in the finer and subtler details of sugyos in Shas and Poskim, so they just engage in their 'gotcha' moments. Rather pathetic, when you think about it.
"the peshat in Rebbe Akiva Eiger, how Tosafos argues with the Rashba, and whether the חיוב בור is להבלו or לחבטו. "
Yeah no doubt the good chareidim at their pesach hotel programs are discussing all that during their gourmet buffet fress-ups. Central focus of their world, my foot. You are confusing a minute percentage with the lot of 'em.
Hey, testes, great to hear from you again! You sound a bit jealous and petulant, no? Me thinks the lady protests too much. We sure have heard a lot from you regarding Pesach hotels. Well, tutuloo for now - need to prepare for my latest scholar-in- residence gig with the Zoodoctor. Artisan pizza tonight, or charcuterie board? Hmmm. Grow up, testes. It would suit you better.
I wish I could remember! I remember when it was, chol hamoed sukkos 5 years ago. I remember where I was; i was telling the joke to my wife and in laws at the time. But I can't for the life of me remember now what is was!
Although circumstances may have forced us, the Jewish "way" was (and still is) not to completely isolate ourselves from the world around us. The true test of a society is in its clashes, and of course a living Torah was meant to express itself in each generation, this idea of "dangerous ideas" or "it's useless for us to engage with" just comes off as either as defeatism or plain fear.
When did anyone ever say that a 15 year old should be exposed?
I'm even fine with a Hirschean approach that our very mission is to set an example and be involved in the world, but at not at the expense of having the proper values instilled!
R'Chaim and that type of gadol are major outliers in Jewish history, high percentage of Torah greats going back to Talmudic times were also politicians, statesmen, scientist, astrologers, travelers, merchants, poets, playwrights, physicians, etc.
Sorry, Friday is my busiest day, and tonight my son has a Melaveh Malka I have to attend to so I can't be to lengthy. But I think this whole taina obfuscates the issue. Yes, if one needs Parnasa, he should go out into the world, and I'd even agree that there is a Maalah, in proper context, to being worldly. But which one of the thousands of Gedolim actually believed the outside חכמות were even a fraction of importance close to the חשיבות of Torah?
We are living in a time where people are being forced to choose between being a RY involved in lomdus or a Rav involved in Halacha. That was never a choice; a Talmid Chochom was a Talmid Chochom. But דור יתמי אנן and we don't have strength for both. And these are for people learning full full time. But you want them to get involved in חכמות אחרות as well? What are the priorities?
Anyways, my point was mainly about the חינוך, in which I agree there shouldn't be such an isolationist attitude later in life, but we absolutely NEED to promote חשיבות התורה ולומדיה first and foremost.
I think I'm going to add to this later, but that's a start.
Yitz, can you please tell us the percentages? Can you show us the data? Can you tell us where you derived this factoid from? I think you are wrong, wishful thinking at best.
Make a helpful list of historical Torah figures. From Reb Chaim Kaniyevsky till Moshe Rabbeinu. Let them show us how many were also pssatmpp"p. It is a negligible minority.
(Here's a prediction: some guy will come and mention a name or two, pretending it is relevant. With that, they will skew the conversation to those characters, and ignore the misdirection)
There is one are where your isolationism is non-existant. Collecting money. All of a sudden nobody is concerned about the evil dangers of potential donors and their communities in fund raising interactions.
Indeed. As those who read me know my view well - when chareidim want to do something they typically frown on (or frown on other non-chareidim doing similar), they will always find some way of justifying it. Every business interaction with non-Jews/zionists/modox should be problematic, even 'dangerous' according to the weltanschauung set out in this post, but strangely that doesn's stop anyone.
He summarised his opinion "But there's an obvious pattern here: we are separate from the rest of the world."
But of course, when chareidim do want to do something, all sorts of exemptions and exclusions would apply. I guarantee you if some DL modos riskin type rabbi had come up with mechiras chometz (the way we do it, it is molei phikphukim c'rimon, let's not even mention all the nursing homes "sold"to their non-jewish managers over pesach/YT/shabbos with flimsy bits of paper) chareidim would be all over it. But hey, hefsed momon, busines is business and all the halachik risk can go out the window.
Silly and irrelevant or obscuficating responses will be ignored.
"and conversing with outsiders here on blogs has been one of the clearest demonstrations of this" omg, it's so frustrating!! they just don't get it!!!!
I speak for myself and probably a few others. And that part doubled as a hook to the main point in why we censor (not that I even agree with the lemaaseh of it; I'm just explaining the root of it and that it comes from an important place). Maskim to the main point?
Wow, great work! Thanks Jerry!
Thanks Happy! Looks so much better published!
(I "liked" the post because of your help...)
“But try to explain the unimaginable greatness of a Rishon to an outsider who's never experienced any levels of greatness ever - it's a completely futile exercise (and conversing with outsiders here on blogs has been one of the clearest demonstrations of this. To them, it’s all fake, Torah greatness is fake, kedushah is fake, spirituality is fake, etc.) And try to go further and explain the chashivus of a mitzvah? The chomer of an aveira? Levels of growth in Avodas Hashem? Forget about it! They won't even know what you're trying to say.”
Those same rishonim you are talking about were able to coherently explain to outsiders all those same concepts, and although they might not have persuaded the other side, they were able to debate on universal terms. Whereas you cannot explain your concepts in any terms that an outsider can begin to understand. I think this says something more about the basis of your position and less than you think about the flaws of opponents.
You're welcome to read the Rambam and try to figure it out. So far the only ones successful at understanding him were the yirei shamayim. You can try the hakdama to orchos tzaddikim. The mesilas yesharim's moshol with the maze. And so on
Exactly
But מורה נבוכים was written for those who had questions from philosophy. Not necessarily תלמידי חכמים.
What's his לשון? He says you need to be a תלמיד חכם? Interesting. I'm sure hed allow one to learn the sefer from a talmid chacham as well.
I don't think he would allow that. it's not about being a TC per se; it's more about having a yediah in the world of the esoteric and it falls under the category of אין דורשים בשנים ורק דרך ראשי פרקים ורק לתלמידים הראויים לכך. No Rebbi can give that over without the talmid fulfilling the requirements himself. You were sort of right in your first comment
It's always the secret way ,information,etc..You cannot understand.Could it be it makes no sense to common sense!?
I'm not sure what you're suggesting, they the Rambam and ramchal were making things up?
It's taka not a secret. To anyone who put in the time in the BM, these things are fairly obvious actually. I'm just saying that to those who didn't take the time, there's almost nothing we can say to them to explain our side. It's almost like debating a flat Earther who will have a response to every single point you make and his mind is made up prior because of a certain group he identifies with. There's little you can say that will change his mind, but to any insider, he's so obviously wrong
The irony! Have you considered that your mind is made up prior because of the group you identify with?
The difference is that the round earthers have BETTER arguments than 'it's obvious to anybody who is a round earther what the position is' - they have sources, photos, scientific evidence the whole gamut, not 'its just fairly obvious' - do you not get the difference?
It sounds ironic. To an outsider. A better analogy is trying to explain to an atheist why were not indoctrinated. As I said in the article, the outsider will say we brainwashed and whatever and we probably can't convince him otherwise so this conversation is completely futile. All I can suggest, one again, is get a Rebbi or chavrusa for a few years to teach you the ropes. Gl!
Actually, I would say round earth is a perfectly good analogy. The round earthers think they have better arguments than the flat earthers, and the flat earthers think they have better arguments than the round earthers. Just like the Shomrei Torah think they have better arguments than the kofrim. I understood your point is that it is impossible to explain round earth to anybody who has no understanding of geometry, astronomy, geography, etc, and who refuses to learn it and dismisses it all as "fake" (sorry Shimshon if you are reading this. We will have to disagree.) It's a good analogy.
It's all a matter of bitichon. Which is why chinuch is so important, chinuch is a form of brainwashing. Playing Uncle Moishy and 613 torah avenue to a three year old is indoctrination. We believe its justified because we have bitochin what we do is correct
Had the Saducees won the battle, the talmud would look very different. We have bitichon that the perushim were correct which is why Hashem let them win, but we have no way of ever knowing for sure.
Those “yarei shamayim” have no clue how to learn the rambam, they refuse to even give him the respect of learning all his seforim. I’ve learned rambam from both angles and chareidim do whatever it takes to distort what he says/means. I’m not saying ppl like slifkin understand the rambam, they might be the only ppl who butcher him more than chareidim. To even think to bring mesillas yesharim into this argument proves the point, Ramchal and Rambam fundamentally disagree.
Eli, I had a similar discussion with you here already. https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/how-pleasant-it-is-when-brothers/comments
You quit the debate because you couldn't defend your viewpoint or even articulate what your issue was. For example, https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/how-pleasant-it-is-when-brothers/comment/42888011
Andddd...crickets.
You're highly mistaken. They agree about 99% and disagree about some details. Try reading about how the Rambam talks about ahava and yiraah and teshuva and tefilah and connecting with Hashem and nevuah.
I'm not saying there aren't *major* differences but I don't think you appreciate how similar they are.
This 'minor detail' stuff really is being used to deal with everything now!
Yah genius! Because you outsiders get bent on the details without proper context in which Chareidim and the Rambam are on the same page!
The whole of Yiddishkeit is based on minor details! But here, all of sudden minor details don't matter.
Are you being purposefully obtuse? No one does what the rambam think you should do as ahavas hashem. And hilchos teshuva is chock full of a philosophy that would get you kicked out of any chareidi yeshiva. This is exactly what I mean, ignoring the rambam yet pretending you take him seriously. And again, they don’t even look at morah nevuchim so how is it even possible they agree with 99% of what they don’t know? The disagreements are not “minor details”. They are deep fundamental arguments.
"And hilchos teshuva is chock full of a philosophy that would get you kicked out of any chareidi yeshiva" let's start with this. This is ridiculous statement. If you mean Hilchos yesodei hatorah, yes the Rambam spends the best of two perokim on his philosophical views which we kinda ignore - but not because they are heretical rather because THEY ARE FALSE. The Rambam followed his Aristo but we don't. We have much better science and Aristo was dead wrong in a ton of stuff. Not sure why we should be spending time on fake science. I'm not saying it wasn't genius, and there are even plenty of things to learn from his science which are full of insights into the spiritual essence of nature, but why would a yeshiva encourage this chelek? Also, it wouldn't get him kicked out of a Chareidi yeshiva if he learned this, not at all- they just don't specifically and positively encourage it because, again, why would and should they?
The Moreh is a different story, and then also they wouldn't frown upon him - UNLESS he was starting down the wrong path, using the Rambam as his springboard, because gee! That's often what happens to people who read the Moreh before they know what the Rambam was truly about! And that's often why these young people are reading the Moreh in the first place! This is not a matter of distorting the Rambam, no siree! It's actually a matter of giving him the kavod he deserves by listening to what he himself says that the Moreh is not for the masses. So instead of picking and choosing which statements of the Rambam to see want to follow, we follow everything, including the fact that we understand that his Moreh is only for a very specific intended audience.
And if you meant Hilchos teshuva, not really sure what you're referring to except the discussion about yediah and bechira in perek hei? They happily teach that tho, so you're welcome to clarify.
And now to the crux of the matter: in our service of God there are a few levels (and within some those there are infinite levels). One level is to be an עובד השם, which means following the halachos, being careful not to mess up the מצוות מעשיות by learning halacha, and on top of this is learning the halachos without missing a beat from the gemara and rishonim which is hard work and takes hours of effort on every piece until אסוקי שמעתתא אליבא דהלכתא. This part of avoda is more academic, but is supposed to follow the path of יראה as we learn the ספרי יראה alongside the גמרא (and when appreciating that it's תורת השי"ת this is kind of obvious anyways but we need extra chizuk as we get caught up in the day to day).
There's a second חלק of עבודה which is higher, and it grows כפי היראה, ad that is the חלק of אהבה. We learn about אהבה even in the beginning before mastering the חלק היראה; it's a מצוה, actually a bunch of מצוות and it's of the מצוות תמידיות and it's a שורש העבודה but to truly appreciate אהבה one needs to first grow in תורה ויראה. A child can love Hashem, but a איש שלם has the capacity to love Hashem way way more. In balancing these two areas we find a מחלוקת between the Rambam and the "Mekubalim."
The Kuzari is mighty clear that אהבה is important and it's important to grow in love and connection to Hashem, but that is primarily for the next world. This world is mainly for תורה ויראה. Of course, even in the world of the Kuzari there is מקום for אנשי מעלה to grow infinitely in אהבה and נביאים do just that, but it's, so to speak, a מעלה, not the ikkur avoda.
According to the Rambam, however, אהבה is *everything*. That is our growth towards עולם הבא which is the תכלית without strings. To the more mainstream opinion, of the מקובלים, not the חוקרים, the main thing is the מצוות and the making *this world* a place for the שכינה to rest. (The famous Gr'a beginning of שה"ש basically says this is why עוה"ב is barely mentioned in the Torah, because the תורה and עוה"ז is about the מצוות and the ביהמ"ק and the השראת השכינה down here).
The reason the Rambam doesn't have this chelek is because in his view, all perfection is to do with trying to fight the גוף and being מבטל it's כח and winning over it. The מקובלים back the idea that the גוף is ultimately a tool for קדושה, not just an "in the way."
This is why the Rambam discusses the מצוות as "perfection of the body and society." He meant nothing like Rabbi doctor means by this. He means becoming *completely* separate from the body into a world of שכל ונשמה. Perfection of body and society to him meant COMPLETELY eradicating any form of earthly pleasures as the mind becomes more dominant and its pleasures become more real (like when making a million dollars, the schwarma isn't as pleasurable, so too when getting involved in the world of אהבה, there is no תאוה for pizza and comedy and דבר אחר). This is not at all what the rationalists mean when they misquote the Rambam, or rather quote him totally out of context; while a true יראי שמים who has a שייכות to אהבה can appreciate the Rambam for what he actually meant.
So who understands the Rambam better? The Ramchal or the rationalist? Just because the Ramchal goes beyond the Rambam and disagrees with him, does not mean he twisted any one of his words. אדרבה, the rationalist who denies that levels of אהבה even exist, they're the ones twisting the Rambam, majorly, albeit unknowingly.
"He meant nothing like Rabbi doctor means by this. He means becoming *completely* separate from the body into a world of שכל ונשמה. "
He uses the word 'society' though. So is this yet another example of claiming words do not mean what they actually say?
"but not because they are heretical rather because THEY ARE FALSE."
That's enough to get you banned a million times over. Charedim do not say that something written by a rishon is false. Ever. All hell broke lose here when I insinuated that Rashi may have said a few false things.
Again, you're largely mistaken. I'll try bln to respond tomorrow when I have time.
Meanwhile have a great night!
These are important points you're bringing up and I look forward to discussing this properly.
"And hilchos teshuva is chock full of a philosophy that would get you kicked out of any chareidi yeshiva"
Can you elaborate, please (serious question)
Yah, see my response
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/how-to-deal-with-the-world-isolation/comment/50895305
8-10 perakim have a very philosophical view of reward and lishma, and essentially denies any typical idea of punishment. Once this is understood, it obviously changes what teshuva is too, where teshuva is just changing from actions that harm/prevent the development of intellect to actions that are develop the intellect.
Yeah. I don't see the 'levels of Avodas Hashem' in the minyan factories, packed bein hazmanim, with 'benei torah' rolling into shacharis at 10am.
Maybe 'levels in avodas Hashem' means the increasing height of streimels and spodiks, complete with new fangled holy 'spitzin'. I know of a rov of a shul who everry couple of years has to buy a new streimel, because pass nischt for most of his kehilla to have taller streimels than him.
Fake. All fake (ok maybe 99.5% fake). There are some chareidim who are truely holy.
Here we go again. Testes projecting his personal problems on every black hat. Hey, man, time to get out of London and Manchester and go find a Beis Medrash to sit and study in. Maybe it's not too late! Gateshead too cold for you?
My point is even if you did see this, please define it in universal terms the way almost all rishonim attempted to do. If you can’t, then your basis might just be some “fluffy spiritual stuff” and not based on any true ideas.
We can discuss universal terms here. That's not the point we're talking about now tho.
So what is your point?
That the things we do understand are foreign to the outsider and that's why we insulate ourselves until the time is ripe
That's an interesting point in the bold.
You very much appereciated post churnsn up a question about what is perhaps our primary role as a people; what does it take to be לאור גוים? Are we indeed to be a small candle in the corner if a darkening room, whose true purpose is only properly appreciated once that room realizes it has no other light but ours? Or are we to actively ignite the wicks of the world. Does the later seem so scary because we fear becoming responsible for any subsequent mishandling of that light? - Yet what is it to be 'as a light,' if NOT to be responsible. And the truth is, history has shown, even if we don't take responsibility, we are nonetheless held responsible. Is it time to stop running from that honor?
Thanks for taking the time reading and commenting!
I don't see what we are expected to do to be quite a shining light. They think we're just heads buried in the sand following antiquated wisdom that has been or with the wind for centuries.
I guess the answer is that we do what we can, and those with public influence in any way (including any interaction with a non Jew) should be making a kiddush Hashem however possible, but ultimately, those sitting in their corners quietly studying God's word with their yeshivos are, in a way, the ones bringing the light in more than anyone else. And that is exactly what He asks us to do.
What a beautiful post. Really shows Kavod and a m'urav im habrios approach to frum non-Chareidim. "Anyone that disagrees with our entire worldview is a kofer!" "fighting wars in this world is non-Toradik!". Shkoyach.
Do explain your problem kind sir. (Make sure you're not burying your head in the sand about the situation at hand.)
Just one small point - you create a straw man when you contrast the IDF with Abaye and Rava as if a person can hold in esteem only one or the other.
*I* don't think they are mutually exclusive. Not at all. I'm all for a good compromise where we can have both maalos at the same time. I think there are plenty of ways to do it.
The issue is that those who don't like (understand) our mehalech truly think the yeshiva system is unnecessary and wholly unimportant. They think we're a bunch of lazy drags on society. To them, the highest value is to be part of the world join the workforce and be a part of the army. We think these are important but not even close to the importance of torah. So long as they are going to evade the very reason for our differences in the first place, and kick the can down the road to discuss a point which only has any merit in the first place if yeshivos are important, I'm not sure how a conversation with them us even possible. They're not willing to talk to us with our givens. So we retreat and fend for ourselves.
It becomes mutually exclusive once *they* inhibit the ability for conversation. As I wrote in the next article, as fight is like a stream.
chazak
Superb post as usual
I consider the direction ללמוד לעשות as primary . We follow the halachah setting time for Torah as adequate. There also are different areas of learning. Both the Rambam and Ramchal believed it was necessary to learn "Science". The Rambam also emphasized learning philosophy to better refine the understanding of G-d and both believed that these studies would increase fear of G-d.
Where did the ramchal say that?
As well as the חובות הלבבות in שער הבחינה
That is not an answer. Discuss the issue!
What am I supposed to be answering?
The Torah is overwhelmingly about mitzvot and aveirot dealing with everyday life .Learning Torah is just one aspect of connecting to G-d. A Torah life is not in the Beit HaMedrash. It is the Jew relating to G-d in all aspects of life.The Torah was created to be fulfilled in this world.In Chassidut they say that through the Torah one brings down spirituality to the physical world.
True and not true.
True that the torah is largely about living in the world (although I can't ignore that this is only "secondary" according to the standard Chareidi, but I'll give this point to you which is well sourced as a perfectly valid approach).
But not true regarding the fact that torah is just another aspect. Torah is our lifeblood and it is our only sanity. There is an *issur* (take that with all the force possible) of bitul torah, even if you just worked for hours and hours that day. This is an intrecate topic, but hardly near the way you're simplifying it.
"there is an *issur* (take that with all the force possible) of bitul torah"
What number lav is this according to the monei hamitzvos?
Who said it has to be one of the 613 to be an issur? You can read the Rambam and poskim.
It happens to be there are a few issurim, learn toras habayis
They may be 'aggadic mussar issurim' rather than actual lavin. If anything it's a bittul aseih.
I didn't say lavin, but סנהדרין דצ"ט כי דבר ד' בזה זה שאפשר לו לעסוק בתורה ואינו עוסק
But yes, as far as bittul aseih, there are plenty. בשבתך בביתך is not a joke. It is the bedrock of our life
This is fantastic, Jerry. You have highlighted the key point in our debate with Slifkin HaRasha. Haredi society is not about 'voting' or 'sharing the burden' or 'integration', and even not the value of secular education. We too can all write revealing articles about how Haredi civil society can be improved in numerous ways. But Slifkin cannot address the central focus of our world - the peshat in Rebbe Akiva Eiger, how Tosafos argues with the Rashba, and whether the חיוב בור is להבלו or לחבטו. He and his friends don't really care about any of that, and have no interest in the finer and subtler details of sugyos in Shas and Poskim, so they just engage in their 'gotcha' moments. Rather pathetic, when you think about it.
"the peshat in Rebbe Akiva Eiger, how Tosafos argues with the Rashba, and whether the חיוב בור is להבלו or לחבטו. "
Yeah no doubt the good chareidim at their pesach hotel programs are discussing all that during their gourmet buffet fress-ups. Central focus of their world, my foot. You are confusing a minute percentage with the lot of 'em.
Hey, testes, great to hear from you again! You sound a bit jealous and petulant, no? Me thinks the lady protests too much. We sure have heard a lot from you regarding Pesach hotels. Well, tutuloo for now - need to prepare for my latest scholar-in- residence gig with the Zoodoctor. Artisan pizza tonight, or charcuterie board? Hmmm. Grow up, testes. It would suit you better.
Thanks for the shoutout!
What was the not funny joke in your dream? So curious
I wish I could remember! I remember when it was, chol hamoed sukkos 5 years ago. I remember where I was; i was telling the joke to my wife and in laws at the time. But I can't for the life of me remember now what is was!
Although circumstances may have forced us, the Jewish "way" was (and still is) not to completely isolate ourselves from the world around us. The true test of a society is in its clashes, and of course a living Torah was meant to express itself in each generation, this idea of "dangerous ideas" or "it's useless for us to engage with" just comes off as either as defeatism or plain fear.
When did anyone ever say that a 15 year old should be exposed?
I'm even fine with a Hirschean approach that our very mission is to set an example and be involved in the world, but at not at the expense of having the proper values instilled!
Obviously there are stages, life is like exposure therapy: Do it too quickly, it'll hurt you, but don't do it at all, and it will really mess you up
I don't think Reb Chaim Kanievsky was messed up. But I can agree that's not for most people.
R'Chaim and that type of gadol are major outliers in Jewish history, high percentage of Torah greats going back to Talmudic times were also politicians, statesmen, scientist, astrologers, travelers, merchants, poets, playwrights, physicians, etc.
Sorry, Friday is my busiest day, and tonight my son has a Melaveh Malka I have to attend to so I can't be to lengthy. But I think this whole taina obfuscates the issue. Yes, if one needs Parnasa, he should go out into the world, and I'd even agree that there is a Maalah, in proper context, to being worldly. But which one of the thousands of Gedolim actually believed the outside חכמות were even a fraction of importance close to the חשיבות of Torah?
We are living in a time where people are being forced to choose between being a RY involved in lomdus or a Rav involved in Halacha. That was never a choice; a Talmid Chochom was a Talmid Chochom. But דור יתמי אנן and we don't have strength for both. And these are for people learning full full time. But you want them to get involved in חכמות אחרות as well? What are the priorities?
Anyways, my point was mainly about the חינוך, in which I agree there shouldn't be such an isolationist attitude later in life, but we absolutely NEED to promote חשיבות התורה ולומדיה first and foremost.
I think I'm going to add to this later, but that's a start.
Yitz, can you please tell us the percentages? Can you show us the data? Can you tell us where you derived this factoid from? I think you are wrong, wishful thinking at best.
Make a helpful list of historical Torah figures. From Reb Chaim Kaniyevsky till Moshe Rabbeinu. Let them show us how many were also pssatmpp"p. It is a negligible minority.
(Here's a prediction: some guy will come and mention a name or two, pretending it is relevant. With that, they will skew the conversation to those characters, and ignore the misdirection)
You can do your own research quite easily on this topic
Do you mean in גלות or always?
There is one are where your isolationism is non-existant. Collecting money. All of a sudden nobody is concerned about the evil dangers of potential donors and their communities in fund raising interactions.
Go figure!
How would collecting money be damaging to the cause???
But that may or may not be a problem depending on the circumstances.
Indeed. As those who read me know my view well - when chareidim want to do something they typically frown on (or frown on other non-chareidim doing similar), they will always find some way of justifying it. Every business interaction with non-Jews/zionists/modox should be problematic, even 'dangerous' according to the weltanschauung set out in this post, but strangely that doesn's stop anyone.
Why? What weltangschaung in this post prevents receiving money with no secularist strings attached?
He summarised his opinion "But there's an obvious pattern here: we are separate from the rest of the world."
But of course, when chareidim do want to do something, all sorts of exemptions and exclusions would apply. I guarantee you if some DL modos riskin type rabbi had come up with mechiras chometz (the way we do it, it is molei phikphukim c'rimon, let's not even mention all the nursing homes "sold"to their non-jewish managers over pesach/YT/shabbos with flimsy bits of paper) chareidim would be all over it. But hey, hefsed momon, busines is business and all the halachik risk can go out the window.
Silly and irrelevant or obscuficating responses will be ignored.
In the time of the CC, there was none of this charedi/yeshivish nonsense. It all started in the early eighties. Whatever revisionists like to pretend.
"and conversing with outsiders here on blogs has been one of the clearest demonstrations of this" omg, it's so frustrating!! they just don't get it!!!!
"(and so we find some who think they were a part of our culture when they really never were)"
yes!!! this makes it even worse! "we were there and it's a hoax" they say, "i went to yeshiva too - for many years. but i'm still an atheist so ha!"
I speak for myself and probably a few others. And that part doubled as a hook to the main point in why we censor (not that I even agree with the lemaaseh of it; I'm just explaining the root of it and that it comes from an important place). Maskim to the main point?