“But try to explain the unimaginable greatness of a Rishon to an outsider who's never experienced any levels of greatness ever - it's a completely futile exercise (and conversing with outsiders here on blogs has been one of the clearest demonstrations of this. To them, it’s all fake, Torah greatness is fake, kedushah is fake, spirituality is fake, etc.) And try to go further and explain the chashivus of a mitzvah? The chomer of an aveira? Levels of growth in Avodas Hashem? Forget about it! They won't even know what you're trying to say.”
Those same rishonim you are talking about were able to coherently explain to outsiders all those same concepts, and although they might not have persuaded the other side, they were able to debate on universal terms. Whereas you cannot explain your concepts in any terms that an outsider can begin to understand. I think this says something more about the basis of your position and less than you think about the flaws of opponents.
You very much appereciated post churnsn up a question about what is perhaps our primary role as a people; what does it take to be לאור גוים? Are we indeed to be a small candle in the corner if a darkening room, whose true purpose is only properly appreciated once that room realizes it has no other light but ours? Or are we to actively ignite the wicks of the world. Does the later seem so scary because we fear becoming responsible for any subsequent mishandling of that light? - Yet what is it to be 'as a light,' if NOT to be responsible. And the truth is, history has shown, even if we don't take responsibility, we are nonetheless held responsible. Is it time to stop running from that honor?
What a beautiful post. Really shows Kavod and a m'urav im habrios approach to frum non-Chareidim. "Anyone that disagrees with our entire worldview is a kofer!" "fighting wars in this world is non-Toradik!". Shkoyach.
I consider the direction ללמוד לעשות as primary . We follow the halachah setting time for Torah as adequate. There also are different areas of learning. Both the Rambam and Ramchal believed it was necessary to learn "Science". The Rambam also emphasized learning philosophy to better refine the understanding of G-d and both believed that these studies would increase fear of G-d.
The Torah is overwhelmingly about mitzvot and aveirot dealing with everyday life .Learning Torah is just one aspect of connecting to G-d. A Torah life is not in the Beit HaMedrash. It is the Jew relating to G-d in all aspects of life.The Torah was created to be fulfilled in this world.In Chassidut they say that through the Torah one brings down spirituality to the physical world.
This is fantastic, Jerry. You have highlighted the key point in our debate with Slifkin HaRasha. Haredi society is not about 'voting' or 'sharing the burden' or 'integration', and even not the value of secular education. We too can all write revealing articles about how Haredi civil society can be improved in numerous ways. But Slifkin cannot address the central focus of our world - the peshat in Rebbe Akiva Eiger, how Tosafos argues with the Rashba, and whether the חיוב בור is להבלו or לחבטו. He and his friends don't really care about any of that, and have no interest in the finer and subtler details of sugyos in Shas and Poskim, so they just engage in their 'gotcha' moments. Rather pathetic, when you think about it.
I don't think that is the reason people choose to stay anonymous. I suspect it's the same reason many non jews remain anon too - in many ways it loosens restrictions and alllows for a freer exchange of ideas.
I personally remain anon because I work for a non jewish company and don't need them (or a future potential employer) googling my name and finding me blasting non jews as perverts on the interwebs.
Although circumstances may have forced us, the Jewish "way" was (and still is) not to completely isolate ourselves from the world around us. The true test of a society is in its clashes, and of course a living Torah was meant to express itself in each generation, this idea of "dangerous ideas" or "it's useless for us to engage with" just comes off as either as defeatism or plain fear.
There is one are where your isolationism is non-existant. Collecting money. All of a sudden nobody is concerned about the evil dangers of potential donors and their communities in fund raising interactions.
"and conversing with outsiders here on blogs has been one of the clearest demonstrations of this" omg, it's so frustrating!! they just don't get it!!!!
Wow, great work! Thanks Jerry!
Thanks Happy! Looks so much better published!
(I "liked" the post because of your help...)
“But try to explain the unimaginable greatness of a Rishon to an outsider who's never experienced any levels of greatness ever - it's a completely futile exercise (and conversing with outsiders here on blogs has been one of the clearest demonstrations of this. To them, it’s all fake, Torah greatness is fake, kedushah is fake, spirituality is fake, etc.) And try to go further and explain the chashivus of a mitzvah? The chomer of an aveira? Levels of growth in Avodas Hashem? Forget about it! They won't even know what you're trying to say.”
Those same rishonim you are talking about were able to coherently explain to outsiders all those same concepts, and although they might not have persuaded the other side, they were able to debate on universal terms. Whereas you cannot explain your concepts in any terms that an outsider can begin to understand. I think this says something more about the basis of your position and less than you think about the flaws of opponents.
That's an interesting point in the bold.
You very much appereciated post churnsn up a question about what is perhaps our primary role as a people; what does it take to be לאור גוים? Are we indeed to be a small candle in the corner if a darkening room, whose true purpose is only properly appreciated once that room realizes it has no other light but ours? Or are we to actively ignite the wicks of the world. Does the later seem so scary because we fear becoming responsible for any subsequent mishandling of that light? - Yet what is it to be 'as a light,' if NOT to be responsible. And the truth is, history has shown, even if we don't take responsibility, we are nonetheless held responsible. Is it time to stop running from that honor?
What a beautiful post. Really shows Kavod and a m'urav im habrios approach to frum non-Chareidim. "Anyone that disagrees with our entire worldview is a kofer!" "fighting wars in this world is non-Toradik!". Shkoyach.
chazak
Superb post as usual
I consider the direction ללמוד לעשות as primary . We follow the halachah setting time for Torah as adequate. There also are different areas of learning. Both the Rambam and Ramchal believed it was necessary to learn "Science". The Rambam also emphasized learning philosophy to better refine the understanding of G-d and both believed that these studies would increase fear of G-d.
That is not an answer. Discuss the issue!
The Torah is overwhelmingly about mitzvot and aveirot dealing with everyday life .Learning Torah is just one aspect of connecting to G-d. A Torah life is not in the Beit HaMedrash. It is the Jew relating to G-d in all aspects of life.The Torah was created to be fulfilled in this world.In Chassidut they say that through the Torah one brings down spirituality to the physical world.
This is fantastic, Jerry. You have highlighted the key point in our debate with Slifkin HaRasha. Haredi society is not about 'voting' or 'sharing the burden' or 'integration', and even not the value of secular education. We too can all write revealing articles about how Haredi civil society can be improved in numerous ways. But Slifkin cannot address the central focus of our world - the peshat in Rebbe Akiva Eiger, how Tosafos argues with the Rashba, and whether the חיוב בור is להבלו or לחבטו. He and his friends don't really care about any of that, and have no interest in the finer and subtler details of sugyos in Shas and Poskim, so they just engage in their 'gotcha' moments. Rather pathetic, when you think about it.
I don't think that is the reason people choose to stay anonymous. I suspect it's the same reason many non jews remain anon too - in many ways it loosens restrictions and alllows for a freer exchange of ideas.
I personally remain anon because I work for a non jewish company and don't need them (or a future potential employer) googling my name and finding me blasting non jews as perverts on the interwebs.
Thanks for the shoutout!
What was the not funny joke in your dream? So curious
Although circumstances may have forced us, the Jewish "way" was (and still is) not to completely isolate ourselves from the world around us. The true test of a society is in its clashes, and of course a living Torah was meant to express itself in each generation, this idea of "dangerous ideas" or "it's useless for us to engage with" just comes off as either as defeatism or plain fear.
There is one are where your isolationism is non-existant. Collecting money. All of a sudden nobody is concerned about the evil dangers of potential donors and their communities in fund raising interactions.
Go figure!
"and conversing with outsiders here on blogs has been one of the clearest demonstrations of this" omg, it's so frustrating!! they just don't get it!!!!