"We know from the Torah that Israel is the promised land of the Jewish nation and belongs us even now (assuming we don’t go with the Satmar position)"
Then maybe I have misunderstood that Satmar position. My understanding is that Satmar (and even NK when no gentiles are around) say that the Land of Israel belongs to the Jewish people exclusively and that the Palestinians are interlopers. Satmar merely holds that the Palestinians shouldn't be expelled until Moshiach gives the word. Are you claiming that the Satmar position goes beyond this?
"Therefore, it is necessary to marshal secular arguments in support of Israel’s military actions, in other words, “hasbara” "
Strong disagree. Even when I still believed in Zionism I thought that hasbara was extremely harmful. There is only one Zionist in history who ever managed to defeat anti Zionists in debates, and that was Meir Kahane. And Kahane didn't bother with hasbara. If anything, he used anti hasbarah. Look at how Kahane effortless handles Morton Downey Jr. at 6:14 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qtb4ZLt246I) with defiant anti hasbara, completely silencing the antisemitic crowd and briefly knocking Downey Jr. out of his rhythm.
Otherwise if you watch a pro Palestinian vs a Hasbarist, it is truly painful to witness how badly the Zionist gets crushed.
"But there is a long tradition in Judaism of using rational, secular reasoning to support Jewish positions. For example, rational arguments were heavily utilized by medieval Jewish philosophers throughout the centuries to buttress Torah theology, and we need look no later than the story of Geviah ben Pesisa or the many disputations between Chazal and the Romans or Sadducees to see this in action"
There is a difference between using rational arguments as part of a good faith, philosophical debate and us attempting to justify our fundamental right not to be murdered en masse. We wouldn't bother debating someone who said that the Holocaust was justified and there is likewise no point in debating someone who holds that Oct 7 was justified.
Nor is it necessary, or even possible, to defend the actions of the Israeli government or IDF. If Israel had wanted Hamas destroyed, it would have done so within a week after Oct 7th. Hamas are not Hezbollah, they are clowns who have no idea what they are doing. Moshe Feiglin is a weirdo but when he's right he's right, and he called within 24 hours that the IDF had already lost the war. The IDF is at it's best when it is destroying Jewish settlements and promoting feminism, it really struggles when it comes to actual war fighting.
So what would our Hasbara even be? We can't on one hand say that Hamas are murderous Nazis while at the same time we simp for the equally murderous PLO. And our actions against Gaza don't match our rhetoric: if we are fighting for our very existence, then why instead of actually destroying Hamas, which could be done in a couple of days, are we just doing our normal "aimlessly blow up buildings" thing?
If Oct 7th had happened to any goyish nation in the world, Gaza would have been gone in 48 hours. If Oct 7th had happened in 1953 Israel instead of of 2023 Israel, same thing. The Goyim aren't stupid, why should they believe any of our hasbara when we ourselves clearly do not?
I agree there is a lot of anti -Semitism. I guess if you don't care about hasbara so much because Hashem gave us the land, it makes sense to dismiss the criticism as anti-Semitic, since that is accurate in many/most cases.
האהבה שאומות העולם מראים לישראל היא פגשם בקדושתם, ולעומת זה השנאה לישראל היא להם לשבח ועלוי. על ידי האהבה שלהם מתערבים כחות זרים בנפש הישראלית וממילא אינו מובדל כל כך ההבדל האמתי שבין ישראל לעמים. אולם על ידי השנאה מבדילים כל הכחות הזרים מישראל, וההבדל שבין ישראל לעמים מתגלה ומתבלט בכל שלמותו.
בעקבתא דמשיחא, שהוא הזמן שבו צריך להתגלות ההבדל התהומי שבין ישראל לעמים בכל פרטיו ובכל דקדוקיו, מתגברת השנאה על עם ישראל מכל העמים השונים. וכאשר תושלם השנאה הזאת בשלמותה, שלא תשאר שום אומה בעולם שתהיה מוקירה את ישראל, יתגלה ההבדל הזה בכל מלואו ואז תהיה הגאולה, שכן כל הבדל שבין ישראל לעמים - גאולת ישראל ושחרורם מן העמים הוא, והמלוי הגמור של ההבדל הזה הוא המלוי של הגאולה השלמה.
מרן הגאון רבי יעקב משה חרל"פ זצ"ל, מעיני הישועה (מי מרום חלק ו), פרק נב, עמ' רג
אם כי שאמת ונכון הדבר שהביא כת"ר מהגרי"מ חרל"פ זצ"ל, מ"מ לאנשים פרטיים ודאי צ' להראות אהבה ולא לבוא לידי איבה ח"ו וד"ל.
ועוד יש להעיר בזה כי גם מצאנו כמה דברים מחז"ל שמבוארים שצ' כל הרעות שבעולם קודם שיבוא שילה, אבל אנחנו משתדלים אך ורק לטוב ומתפללים ע"ז ואין מדריכים על שיהא רע, ועוד שמידה רעה יכולה להתבטל ע"י תשובה ותפילה
1. There is the possibility to let the non-jews and jews make a country that welcomes everyone and pushes no specific ethnonationalist identity (similar to the US, whic defines itself through its adherence to american liberal values), without forcing anyone to go away or leave. If you argue: "but the palestinians or israelis do not want that", ask yourself why they wouldn't want that. If its because of plestinian hatred due to the ongoing israeli ethnic cleansing (which you endorse in the beginning of this post on religious grounds) then "maybe" you should have stopped the cleansing. If you insist on it and you insist on a jewish state, then don't complain about resistance and stop putting the word resistance under quotation marks.
2. If they refuse the first, the israekis can do whatever they want. They can go to their ancestral homeland (boca ralton, la, brooklyn, eastern europe etc). Jokes aside, the israeli population is more flexible than you think. Before the war, a third of israeli doctors already planned to leave israel. Since October 7th over 300,000 israeli jews already left israel and hundreds of thousands of others did not return from vacation. Over a third of chiloni and masorti jews want to leave israel even before the war https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20170320-36-of-non-religious-jews-want-to-leave-israel/ and you know what economic consequences a majority charedi, dati leumi and arab population would have under current circumstances. Half a million israelis have a european passport in addition to another 500,000 having an american one. That was 8 years ago: https://www.newsweek.com/2015/08/28/whats-behind-surge-israelis-seeking-eu-citizenship-362904.html A year later when portugal and spain offered passports, over half of the questioned sephardi jews voiced interest, with over a fourth giving israels unbearable situation as a reason. https://www.timesofisrael.com/most-israelis-want-foreign-citizenship-passport-to-prosperity/
Besides, it wouldn't be your first galut, right? Add to that the demographic problems that we white europeans are facing in our countries and our need for population and professional works force.
3. We are not doing anything regarding this situation, cuz I am not the UN. We can not send an army, we cannot defeat Hamas (and looking at the public global spike in support for Palestine, nobody wants to destroy Hamas anyway, except zionists, their sympathizers and their bribed and blackmailed talking heads and politicians in d.c. and bruxelles).
4. Yeah, ethnostates are normal in this secular era where nation, or class or race replace God and His believers as the state-building element. The renaissance of ethnonationalism (after a time of american liberal idealism) is clear in the spike of right wing politics. Now, think about it, how these same secular right wing movements (e.g. afd in germany or ukrainian nationalist bandera wroshippers or the četnici in serbia or ustaše in croatia or the bpnp in bosnia etc.) happen to espouse antisemitism and historical revisionism.
Conclusion: Very poor hasbara happy, but, in your credit, the most balanced and reasonable one from what I have seen and read throughout the years.
P.S. your meme skills are horrible. You happy mentioned in one post that you are too old to serve in the army, which means you are an older fella, so I understand that. Specifically, is the crying soyjak supposed to present arabs? Then why is he wearing a red shimagh? Red shimagh is worn in saudi arabia, which has been very restrained in its approach towards israel since october the 7th, besides the usual empty political condemnations of war crimes. It would have made more sense to place a kuffiyeh.
None of the characters on the picture are saying anything. And the jew is not presented as a chad (-chin, mucles, body hair), but he is drawn like a retard who just randomly says "yes". There is no point or punchline to the meme.
See rabotai: thats a symbolical representation of you loosing the internet and information war. As a jewish saying says: Hakol kol jakov wa hayadaim yadai Esav.
1. How do you propose this practically? What is Hamas willing to offer peace for, realistically?
2. Again, impractical. Which countries are willing to take 7 million Jews? An as Choker showed, hypothetical survey questions mean very little.
3. So nobody is willing to help Israel with their safety, they just want to see Israel destroyed (and of course no offer to take in 7 million Jewish refugees). Thank you, you couldn't have made my point better.
You are telling me they never mean it when they talk about "from the river to the sea" and eradicating Israel? This is not just a few nutcases, this is the leadership of Hamas. They are joking?
But let's say you are right and all they want in return for peace is a return to 67 borders. It's delusional. They are saying we will stop attacking you if you reset the clock 57 years and expel hundreds of thousands of Jews from their current homes. That's totally unreasonable. And furthermore it's totally unreasonable for Israel to trust Hamas that they will be satisfied with this, given all their talk about eradicating Israel.
So basically at the very best we have government A telling government B "give up the land you occupied for the past 57 years, or we will attack you". And then government A attacks, and government B responds with overwhelming force. But it's even worse, because most of the time it's government A saying "we want to rid the entire territory of your ethnic group".
There are two narratives about the Middle Eastern conflict, and people believe stories according to the narrative they accept. The individual stories are not the issue, people believe what they want.
We are Jewish, the people living in Israel are our brothers, cousins, and relatives. We live as one, marry each other and follow similar lifestyles. There is every reason for us to accept the Israeli narrative.
You are not an Arab, and certainly not a Palestinian. What do you have with the Palestinian narrative? What connects you with them? Why did you accept that story over the other?
"Since October 7th over 300,000 israeli jews already left israel and hundreds of thousands of others did not return from vacation."
What in heaven's name are you talking about???
"Over a third of chiloni and masorti jews want to leave israel even before the war"
If they wanted to leave so badly, they could have done so long ago. No one is stopping them.
"A famous israeli demographer says that purely in numbers jews are already a minoroity between the river and the sea:"
Not sure what that article is supposed to prove. It includes everyone in Gaza and the west bank. If it included the country of Turkey, the numbers would be even lower. We know there are a lot more Muslims in the world than Jews. So what?
=====
As long as we're throwing around articles, how 'bout these?
"In a shock for Europe, anti-Islam populist Geert Wilders records a massive win in Dutch elections"
"3. We are not doing anything regarding this situation, cuz I am not the UN. We can not send an army, we cannot defeat Hamas (and looking at the public global spike in support for Palestine, nobody wants to destroy Hamas anyway, except zionists, their sympathizers and their bribed and blackmailed talking heads and politicians in d.c. and bruxelles)."
That 'except' clause at the end is doing a whole bunch of heavy lifting. I might as well say that 'no one thinks Israel is doing anything bad in Gaza *except* a bunch of anti-Semitic teenagers on tik-tok and overgrown antisemitic teengaers around the world who don't want to get their throats slit by some over-exuberant Hamas supporter.'
And an even quicker critique of your critique of mine critique:
1. Buber and magnes did not have influence on the issue itself and were politically meaningless (and by more mainstream and fanatic zionists considered to be compromising idealistic traitors). The arabs rejected their proposal, cuz the british (who actually had the decision and power in their hands) already promised there would be no jewish state at all and a curb of jewish immigration. After the war of 1948, iarael rejected peace plans by arabs and even rejected 5 peace offers by Hamas, as discussed by Ilan pape and other israeli historians.
2. Israel is much smaller than america and hundreds of thousands of qualified and educated people leaving israel and even more already making plans is proportionately much bigger and extremely dangerous for israel, in addition to the, ya know, demographic and economic trends already going on inside the country.
"So you agree the Arabs were not merely looking for equality (in the liberal sense as liberals like to portray it) but wanted an Arab state and to dominate."
1. For Gods sake khoker, wasn't that obvious. Of course they wanted their own arab independence after the end of british occupation and not an influx of jewish immigrants allowed by the very same british occupiers in order to artificially create (the now non-existinting) circumstances for a jewish state.
Hamas is not contradicting itself nor doing double speak, rather the israeli governmnets, its actions and circumstances varied over the years, hence Hamas' approavh, tok
Now, I am wondering what netanyahus opinion regarding the two state solution is over all these decades 🤔
"The SJP in my college which is claiming that the Palestinians accepted tons of Holocaust and other Jewish refugees willingly. (Which is a total fabrication as you agree.)"
Depends. In the beginning of zionist settlement project in the late 1890ies and early 20th century, Palestinians were very welcoming to zionists. But around the 1920ies and 1930ies the implications of the zionist project became clear and obvious, so it turned violent on both sides (hagana founded in 1920 and irgun in 1931)
I think the most basic lie is that the claim for a right for a Palestinian state because Israel is apartheid, and then they want to do the same with non Muslims. All the lies you quote are cute, but this one is what got the whole world backing them.
I have some insight as someone who lives in a family of white liberals: they don't have any sort of long term plan or goal because that simply isn't the way their minds work.
White liberals do not care about minorities. At all. Imagine if CBS announced that Stephen Colbert was going to be replaced with a black guy in the interest of diversifying representation. Every white liberal in the country would riot. Similarly, my siblings would quickly become violent if black kids from the ghetto were bused into their own children's schools. And can you imagine the reaction if the government said that they would start putting Section 8 housing the neighborhoods of white Biden voters (and I would strongly support such a policy, btw)? It wouldn't be pretty.
The reason I'm bringing this up is because I've already heard my family members call Kyrie Irving a "white supremacist" for refusing to get the Covid vaccine (full disclosure: I am double vaxxed and I think the vaccine is a great thing that has saved countless lives, I'm not trying to start a Covid debate, I'm just trying to illustrate a point). I have 0 doubt in my mind that my siblings would describe any attempt to put section 8 housing in their own neighborhoods as "white supremacy". This may seem nonsensical on the surface, but white liberals simply define words differently then everyone else: when normal people say "white supremacy", we mean... white supremacy. When white liberals say white supremacy, they mean anything that white liberals don't like. I'm not trolling, this is literally how white liberals think. When white liberals talk about "race", they don't actually mean race. I know it's hard to comprehend, but once you get it it becomes much easier to understand them.
"We know from the Torah that Israel is the promised land of the Jewish nation and belongs us even now (assuming we don’t go with the Satmar position)"
Then maybe I have misunderstood that Satmar position. My understanding is that Satmar (and even NK when no gentiles are around) say that the Land of Israel belongs to the Jewish people exclusively and that the Palestinians are interlopers. Satmar merely holds that the Palestinians shouldn't be expelled until Moshiach gives the word. Are you claiming that the Satmar position goes beyond this?
"Therefore, it is necessary to marshal secular arguments in support of Israel’s military actions, in other words, “hasbara” "
Strong disagree. Even when I still believed in Zionism I thought that hasbara was extremely harmful. There is only one Zionist in history who ever managed to defeat anti Zionists in debates, and that was Meir Kahane. And Kahane didn't bother with hasbara. If anything, he used anti hasbarah. Look at how Kahane effortless handles Morton Downey Jr. at 6:14 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qtb4ZLt246I) with defiant anti hasbara, completely silencing the antisemitic crowd and briefly knocking Downey Jr. out of his rhythm.
Otherwise if you watch a pro Palestinian vs a Hasbarist, it is truly painful to witness how badly the Zionist gets crushed.
"But there is a long tradition in Judaism of using rational, secular reasoning to support Jewish positions. For example, rational arguments were heavily utilized by medieval Jewish philosophers throughout the centuries to buttress Torah theology, and we need look no later than the story of Geviah ben Pesisa or the many disputations between Chazal and the Romans or Sadducees to see this in action"
There is a difference between using rational arguments as part of a good faith, philosophical debate and us attempting to justify our fundamental right not to be murdered en masse. We wouldn't bother debating someone who said that the Holocaust was justified and there is likewise no point in debating someone who holds that Oct 7 was justified.
Nor is it necessary, or even possible, to defend the actions of the Israeli government or IDF. If Israel had wanted Hamas destroyed, it would have done so within a week after Oct 7th. Hamas are not Hezbollah, they are clowns who have no idea what they are doing. Moshe Feiglin is a weirdo but when he's right he's right, and he called within 24 hours that the IDF had already lost the war. The IDF is at it's best when it is destroying Jewish settlements and promoting feminism, it really struggles when it comes to actual war fighting.
So what would our Hasbara even be? We can't on one hand say that Hamas are murderous Nazis while at the same time we simp for the equally murderous PLO. And our actions against Gaza don't match our rhetoric: if we are fighting for our very existence, then why instead of actually destroying Hamas, which could be done in a couple of days, are we just doing our normal "aimlessly blow up buildings" thing?
If Oct 7th had happened to any goyish nation in the world, Gaza would have been gone in 48 hours. If Oct 7th had happened in 1953 Israel instead of of 2023 Israel, same thing. The Goyim aren't stupid, why should they believe any of our hasbara when we ourselves clearly do not?
What brings you to Thinphu?
honestly, happy, that was the absolute best part of the whole shtickel! ijbol
R' Happy נ"י,
A. In non-חרדי society in Israel, there is a direct link between the connection to תורה and the connection to א"י.
B. Please read this (the writer was formerly a left wing secularist, but for the last few years he changed)
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-human-rights-advocates-became-antisemites
I agree there is a lot of anti -Semitism. I guess if you don't care about hasbara so much because Hashem gave us the land, it makes sense to dismiss the criticism as anti-Semitic, since that is accurate in many/most cases.
האהבה שאומות העולם מראים לישראל היא פגשם בקדושתם, ולעומת זה השנאה לישראל היא להם לשבח ועלוי. על ידי האהבה שלהם מתערבים כחות זרים בנפש הישראלית וממילא אינו מובדל כל כך ההבדל האמתי שבין ישראל לעמים. אולם על ידי השנאה מבדילים כל הכחות הזרים מישראל, וההבדל שבין ישראל לעמים מתגלה ומתבלט בכל שלמותו.
בעקבתא דמשיחא, שהוא הזמן שבו צריך להתגלות ההבדל התהומי שבין ישראל לעמים בכל פרטיו ובכל דקדוקיו, מתגברת השנאה על עם ישראל מכל העמים השונים. וכאשר תושלם השנאה הזאת בשלמותה, שלא תשאר שום אומה בעולם שתהיה מוקירה את ישראל, יתגלה ההבדל הזה בכל מלואו ואז תהיה הגאולה, שכן כל הבדל שבין ישראל לעמים - גאולת ישראל ושחרורם מן העמים הוא, והמלוי הגמור של ההבדל הזה הוא המלוי של הגאולה השלמה.
מרן הגאון רבי יעקב משה חרל"פ זצ"ל, מעיני הישועה (מי מרום חלק ו), פרק נב, עמ' רג
אם כי שאמת ונכון הדבר שהביא כת"ר מהגרי"מ חרל"פ זצ"ל, מ"מ לאנשים פרטיים ודאי צ' להראות אהבה ולא לבוא לידי איבה ח"ו וד"ל.
ועוד יש להעיר בזה כי גם מצאנו כמה דברים מחז"ל שמבוארים שצ' כל הרעות שבעולם קודם שיבוא שילה, אבל אנחנו משתדלים אך ורק לטוב ומתפללים ע"ז ואין מדריכים על שיהא רע, ועוד שמידה רעה יכולה להתבטל ע"י תשובה ותפילה
אמן, כן יהי רצון!
אך בחסד וברחמים
Also great: https://open.substack.com/pub/ymeskhout/p/the-jewish-conspiracy-to-change-my?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=33pit
Thanks that was a great read. I felt like he was expressing the thoughts in my bones
A quick critique:
1. There is the possibility to let the non-jews and jews make a country that welcomes everyone and pushes no specific ethnonationalist identity (similar to the US, whic defines itself through its adherence to american liberal values), without forcing anyone to go away or leave. If you argue: "but the palestinians or israelis do not want that", ask yourself why they wouldn't want that. If its because of plestinian hatred due to the ongoing israeli ethnic cleansing (which you endorse in the beginning of this post on religious grounds) then "maybe" you should have stopped the cleansing. If you insist on it and you insist on a jewish state, then don't complain about resistance and stop putting the word resistance under quotation marks.
2. If they refuse the first, the israekis can do whatever they want. They can go to their ancestral homeland (boca ralton, la, brooklyn, eastern europe etc). Jokes aside, the israeli population is more flexible than you think. Before the war, a third of israeli doctors already planned to leave israel. Since October 7th over 300,000 israeli jews already left israel and hundreds of thousands of others did not return from vacation. Over a third of chiloni and masorti jews want to leave israel even before the war https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20170320-36-of-non-religious-jews-want-to-leave-israel/ and you know what economic consequences a majority charedi, dati leumi and arab population would have under current circumstances. Half a million israelis have a european passport in addition to another 500,000 having an american one. That was 8 years ago: https://www.newsweek.com/2015/08/28/whats-behind-surge-israelis-seeking-eu-citizenship-362904.html A year later when portugal and spain offered passports, over half of the questioned sephardi jews voiced interest, with over a fourth giving israels unbearable situation as a reason. https://www.timesofisrael.com/most-israelis-want-foreign-citizenship-passport-to-prosperity/
A famous israeli demographer says that purely in numbers jews are already a minoroity between the river and the sea: https://www.timesofisrael.com/jews-now-a-minority-in-israel-and-the-territories-demographer-says/
Besides, it wouldn't be your first galut, right? Add to that the demographic problems that we white europeans are facing in our countries and our need for population and professional works force.
3. We are not doing anything regarding this situation, cuz I am not the UN. We can not send an army, we cannot defeat Hamas (and looking at the public global spike in support for Palestine, nobody wants to destroy Hamas anyway, except zionists, their sympathizers and their bribed and blackmailed talking heads and politicians in d.c. and bruxelles).
4. Yeah, ethnostates are normal in this secular era where nation, or class or race replace God and His believers as the state-building element. The renaissance of ethnonationalism (after a time of american liberal idealism) is clear in the spike of right wing politics. Now, think about it, how these same secular right wing movements (e.g. afd in germany or ukrainian nationalist bandera wroshippers or the četnici in serbia or ustaše in croatia or the bpnp in bosnia etc.) happen to espouse antisemitism and historical revisionism.
Conclusion: Very poor hasbara happy, but, in your credit, the most balanced and reasonable one from what I have seen and read throughout the years.
P.S. your meme skills are horrible. You happy mentioned in one post that you are too old to serve in the army, which means you are an older fella, so I understand that. Specifically, is the crying soyjak supposed to present arabs? Then why is he wearing a red shimagh? Red shimagh is worn in saudi arabia, which has been very restrained in its approach towards israel since october the 7th, besides the usual empty political condemnations of war crimes. It would have made more sense to place a kuffiyeh.
None of the characters on the picture are saying anything. And the jew is not presented as a chad (-chin, mucles, body hair), but he is drawn like a retard who just randomly says "yes". There is no point or punchline to the meme.
See rabotai: thats a symbolical representation of you loosing the internet and information war. As a jewish saying says: Hakol kol jakov wa hayadaim yadai Esav.
I am sorry about my lack of meming skills.
A quick response:
1. How do you propose this practically? What is Hamas willing to offer peace for, realistically?
2. Again, impractical. Which countries are willing to take 7 million Jews? An as Choker showed, hypothetical survey questions mean very little.
3. So nobody is willing to help Israel with their safety, they just want to see Israel destroyed (and of course no offer to take in 7 million Jewish refugees). Thank you, you couldn't have made my point better.
"I am sorry about my lack of meming skills."
Apology accepted.
"How do you propose this practically? What is Hamas willing to offer peace for, realistically?"
Ask them, I am not their speaker: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/05/24/136403918/hamas-foreign-minister-we-accept-two-state-solution-with-67-borders
"So nobody is willing to help Israel with their safety, they just want to see Israel destroyed"
Read my first point. Israel created its dire security situation in the first place. We are not the knesset and not the UN to solve this problem.
Well, I guess lets go and pray
You are telling me they never mean it when they talk about "from the river to the sea" and eradicating Israel? This is not just a few nutcases, this is the leadership of Hamas. They are joking?
But let's say you are right and all they want in return for peace is a return to 67 borders. It's delusional. They are saying we will stop attacking you if you reset the clock 57 years and expel hundreds of thousands of Jews from their current homes. That's totally unreasonable. And furthermore it's totally unreasonable for Israel to trust Hamas that they will be satisfied with this, given all their talk about eradicating Israel.
So basically at the very best we have government A telling government B "give up the land you occupied for the past 57 years, or we will attack you". And then government A attacks, and government B responds with overwhelming force. But it's even worse, because most of the time it's government A saying "we want to rid the entire territory of your ethnic group".
Islam permits its adherents to lie to save their lives.
Islam also further projects this lying nature onto Jews by claiming we changed the Torah (chas v'shalom).
There is no point in talking to Muslims, no matter how earnest they are nor how honest they seem.
Rafael, it's not too late to become a Ben Noach or naturalize into the Israelite Nation (ie convert to the Jewish faith).
I asked you this already, but you didn't answer.
There are two narratives about the Middle Eastern conflict, and people believe stories according to the narrative they accept. The individual stories are not the issue, people believe what they want.
We are Jewish, the people living in Israel are our brothers, cousins, and relatives. We live as one, marry each other and follow similar lifestyles. There is every reason for us to accept the Israeli narrative.
You are not an Arab, and certainly not a Palestinian. What do you have with the Palestinian narrative? What connects you with them? Why did you accept that story over the other?
"Since October 7th over 300,000 israeli jews already left israel and hundreds of thousands of others did not return from vacation."
What in heaven's name are you talking about???
"Over a third of chiloni and masorti jews want to leave israel even before the war"
If they wanted to leave so badly, they could have done so long ago. No one is stopping them.
"A famous israeli demographer says that purely in numbers jews are already a minoroity between the river and the sea:"
Not sure what that article is supposed to prove. It includes everyone in Gaza and the west bank. If it included the country of Turkey, the numbers would be even lower. We know there are a lot more Muslims in the world than Jews. So what?
=====
As long as we're throwing around articles, how 'bout these?
"In a shock for Europe, anti-Islam populist Geert Wilders records a massive win in Dutch elections"
https://apnews.com/article/netherlands-election-candidates-prime-minister-f31f57a856f006ff0f2fc4984acaca6b
"2023 update: No Arab demographic time bomb"
https://www.jns.org/2023-update-no-arab-demographic-time-bomb/
"3. We are not doing anything regarding this situation, cuz I am not the UN. We can not send an army, we cannot defeat Hamas (and looking at the public global spike in support for Palestine, nobody wants to destroy Hamas anyway, except zionists, their sympathizers and their bribed and blackmailed talking heads and politicians in d.c. and bruxelles)."
That 'except' clause at the end is doing a whole bunch of heavy lifting. I might as well say that 'no one thinks Israel is doing anything bad in Gaza *except* a bunch of anti-Semitic teenagers on tik-tok and overgrown antisemitic teengaers around the world who don't want to get their throats slit by some over-exuberant Hamas supporter.'
Assuming you are not a larper, what is the standard Muslim view of the oct 7th attacks?
And an even quicker critique of your critique of mine critique:
1. Buber and magnes did not have influence on the issue itself and were politically meaningless (and by more mainstream and fanatic zionists considered to be compromising idealistic traitors). The arabs rejected their proposal, cuz the british (who actually had the decision and power in their hands) already promised there would be no jewish state at all and a curb of jewish immigration. After the war of 1948, iarael rejected peace plans by arabs and even rejected 5 peace offers by Hamas, as discussed by Ilan pape and other israeli historians.
2. Israel is much smaller than america and hundreds of thousands of qualified and educated people leaving israel and even more already making plans is proportionately much bigger and extremely dangerous for israel, in addition to the, ya know, demographic and economic trends already going on inside the country.
"So you agree the Arabs were not merely looking for equality (in the liberal sense as liberals like to portray it) but wanted an Arab state and to dominate."
1. For Gods sake khoker, wasn't that obvious. Of course they wanted their own arab independence after the end of british occupation and not an influx of jewish immigrants allowed by the very same british occupiers in order to artificially create (the now non-existinting) circumstances for a jewish state.
2. The truce part is related to stopping warfare, because currently there is no peace agreement. Hamas offered that peace agreement, too: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/05/24/136403918/hamas-foreign-minister-we-accept-two-state-solution-with-67-borders
Hamas is not contradicting itself nor doing double speak, rather the israeli governmnets, its actions and circumstances varied over the years, hence Hamas' approavh, tok
But here you go: https://www.albayan.ae/across-the-uae/2006-04-05-1.906655
Now, I am wondering what netanyahus opinion regarding the two state solution is over all these decades 🤔
"The SJP in my college which is claiming that the Palestinians accepted tons of Holocaust and other Jewish refugees willingly. (Which is a total fabrication as you agree.)"
Depends. In the beginning of zionist settlement project in the late 1890ies and early 20th century, Palestinians were very welcoming to zionists. But around the 1920ies and 1930ies the implications of the zionist project became clear and obvious, so it turned violent on both sides (hagana founded in 1920 and irgun in 1931)
I like this take: https://open.substack.com/pub/parshawithchana/p/darvo-and-anti-zionist-booktok-and?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=33pit
I think the most basic lie is that the claim for a right for a Palestinian state because Israel is apartheid, and then they want to do the same with non Muslims. All the lies you quote are cute, but this one is what got the whole world backing them.
I have some insight as someone who lives in a family of white liberals: they don't have any sort of long term plan or goal because that simply isn't the way their minds work.
White liberals do not care about minorities. At all. Imagine if CBS announced that Stephen Colbert was going to be replaced with a black guy in the interest of diversifying representation. Every white liberal in the country would riot. Similarly, my siblings would quickly become violent if black kids from the ghetto were bused into their own children's schools. And can you imagine the reaction if the government said that they would start putting Section 8 housing the neighborhoods of white Biden voters (and I would strongly support such a policy, btw)? It wouldn't be pretty.
The reason I'm bringing this up is because I've already heard my family members call Kyrie Irving a "white supremacist" for refusing to get the Covid vaccine (full disclosure: I am double vaxxed and I think the vaccine is a great thing that has saved countless lives, I'm not trying to start a Covid debate, I'm just trying to illustrate a point). I have 0 doubt in my mind that my siblings would describe any attempt to put section 8 housing in their own neighborhoods as "white supremacy". This may seem nonsensical on the surface, but white liberals simply define words differently then everyone else: when normal people say "white supremacy", we mean... white supremacy. When white liberals say white supremacy, they mean anything that white liberals don't like. I'm not trolling, this is literally how white liberals think. When white liberals talk about "race", they don't actually mean race. I know it's hard to comprehend, but once you get it it becomes much easier to understand them.