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Hammer Otongo's avatar

"We know from the Torah that Israel is the promised land of the Jewish nation and belongs us even now (assuming we don’t go with the Satmar position)"

Then maybe I have misunderstood that Satmar position. My understanding is that Satmar (and even NK when no gentiles are around) say that the Land of Israel belongs to the Jewish people exclusively and that the Palestinians are interlopers. Satmar merely holds that the Palestinians shouldn't be expelled until Moshiach gives the word. Are you claiming that the Satmar position goes beyond this?

"Therefore, it is necessary to marshal secular arguments in support of Israel’s military actions, in other words, “hasbara” "

Strong disagree. Even when I still believed in Zionism I thought that hasbara was extremely harmful. There is only one Zionist in history who ever managed to defeat anti Zionists in debates, and that was Meir Kahane. And Kahane didn't bother with hasbara. If anything, he used anti hasbarah. Look at how Kahane effortless handles Morton Downey Jr. at 6:14 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qtb4ZLt246I) with defiant anti hasbara, completely silencing the antisemitic crowd and briefly knocking Downey Jr. out of his rhythm.

Otherwise if you watch a pro Palestinian vs a Hasbarist, it is truly painful to witness how badly the Zionist gets crushed.

"But there is a long tradition in Judaism of using rational, secular reasoning to support Jewish positions. For example, rational arguments were heavily utilized by medieval Jewish philosophers throughout the centuries to buttress Torah theology, and we need look no later than the story of Geviah ben Pesisa or the many disputations between Chazal and the Romans or Sadducees to see this in action"

There is a difference between using rational arguments as part of a good faith, philosophical debate and us attempting to justify our fundamental right not to be murdered en masse. We wouldn't bother debating someone who said that the Holocaust was justified and there is likewise no point in debating someone who holds that Oct 7 was justified.

Nor is it necessary, or even possible, to defend the actions of the Israeli government or IDF. If Israel had wanted Hamas destroyed, it would have done so within a week after Oct 7th. Hamas are not Hezbollah, they are clowns who have no idea what they are doing. Moshe Feiglin is a weirdo but when he's right he's right, and he called within 24 hours that the IDF had already lost the war. The IDF is at it's best when it is destroying Jewish settlements and promoting feminism, it really struggles when it comes to actual war fighting.

So what would our Hasbara even be? We can't on one hand say that Hamas are murderous Nazis while at the same time we simp for the equally murderous PLO. And our actions against Gaza don't match our rhetoric: if we are fighting for our very existence, then why instead of actually destroying Hamas, which could be done in a couple of days, are we just doing our normal "aimlessly blow up buildings" thing?

If Oct 7th had happened to any goyish nation in the world, Gaza would have been gone in 48 hours. If Oct 7th had happened in 1953 Israel instead of of 2023 Israel, same thing. The Goyim aren't stupid, why should they believe any of our hasbara when we ourselves clearly do not?

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Isha Yiras Hashem's avatar

What brings you to Thinphu?

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