However, I would make a reservation on two of your points:
1. "The State has provided a safe haven for millions of Jews since the end of World War II "
Do not forget that it was the settling in Eretz Yisrael by irreligious Jews, who antagonized the religious Muslim Arab native inhabitants and, later on, in particular, the establishment of the State , which generated the arguably unprecedented outbreak of hatred against those Jews in Arab countries who had previously enjoyed a comparatively peaceful coexistence and tolerance.
does not add up to more than there would have been without Zionism.
2. "ended up becoming the biggest material Torah supporters in a thousand years. "
As someone with first hand knowledge of the huge, huge amount of money which flows into the country constantly to support Torah by generous Orthodox Jews in the diaspora, the contribution to Torah institutions by the Israeli government is miniscule! It is a mere fraction of the amounts invested in secular institutions, whether "educational" institutions, sport, "culture", etc. - and even that is only after being squeezed out of it by Haredi politicians, who are in a constant uphill battle for their constituents to receive at least something approaching the amounts that their secular brothers receive. And even then it is given with bad grace, and accompanied by vicious slander.
3.
"they have also done a great deal of good on the material plane, which in turn has led to incredible and unparalleled flourishing of the Torah in the form of Talmud Torahs, yeshivos, shuls, kollel families and essential non-spiritual institutions, such as the military, roads, homebuilding, electricity, and hospitals."
This argument may be partially true, but it is like saying that it is only thanks to the superior Israeli armed forces that Israel won such a dazzling victory in the Six Day War!
That is certainly true, but, ahem, perhaps there was a deeper, spiritual reason......?
"Do not forget that it was the settling in Eretz Yisrael by irreligious Jews, who antagonized the religious Muslim Arab native inhabitants and, later on, in particular, the establishment of the State , which generated the arguably unprecedented outbreak of hatred against those Jews in Arab countries who had previously enjoyed a comparatively peaceful coexistence and tolerance."
Highly questionable. Already by the mid 19th century you had blood libels en-masse in the Arab world (before Zionism). The Ottomans and other groups committed all sorts of atrocities over the past 200 years against Turkic Christians, Kurds, Marionite Christians etc. Assuming Jews would be left alone is wishful thinking.
Some fun relevant factoids from a historian who specializes in genocide studies I know:
- Between 1890 and 1908, over 2/3’s of the population in just the Mount Lebanon area alone fled from their homeland to escape Arabist massacres and persecution of the **majority** Aramean populations
-New research into the Armenian Genocide has shown that organized massacres of Armenians actually began as early as the 1880’s at the hands of Turkish AND Arab race nationalists. The crescendo was the full on event in 1915.
-There were massacres and organized persecution-to-create-mass-flight of Assyrians, Chaldeans, Kurds, Yazidis, Yarsunis, and even Turkmen at the hands of Arab race nationalists in Iraq
-the Baathist and Ba’ath-aligned nationalists frequently positively call themselves “basically Arab Nazis”
-Turkish race nationalists, the Grey Wolves, asserted that there was an international conspiracy by Armenians to limit Turkey and that this is what justifies assassinating Armenians abroad and oppressing Turks and Kurds (or Arabs) of any Armenian heritage
-Iranian Nationalists carried out atrocities against the non-“Aryans”, such as the Azeris, the Kurds, the Lur Arabs, the Turkic peoples.
-There was a Baathist book called, “The Three Who Allah Should Not Have Made?" It argued that Allah made three mistakes during creation: Persians, Jews, and Flies. It argues eventually that actually flies play a vital ecological role, but that Persians and Jews really are racial and creator mistakes that the superior Arab race must exterminate. This book was so popular that Saddam’s desk had it in the drawer, and he had even carved its name into the desk.
-1/5 Egyptians were Copts just a few decades ago. Today, that figure is less than 1/20. How does one imagine that happened? Answer:Egyptian Arabist movement’s attempts to obliterate their own indigenous Coptic population
-Every single one of these majority popularity movements explicitly said “The Jews are the racial enemy of our people and we must exterminate them to succeed or our race will be overtaken and destroyed by the Jews,” with the sole exception of Turks, who still had significant animosity towards Jews within Turkey itself.
(Hey, Mazel tov--my browser let me through. Lots of good &/or humorous posts going on here, such as this one.)
Point 2 is very important. If you have documentation for it available you can make a great impact. Only that the institutions often aren't interested in the attention.
This is a brilliant post but it left me scratching my head. The State of Israel is 1. the most dangerous place where Jews live in large numbers in the world, 2. less materially developed than the US and Europe where Jews live comfortably, 3. a source of major international headache due to the Arab-Israeli conflict, 4. a source of real antisemitism both because of disregard for Torah and also because of Arab-Israeli conflict, 5. perpetually in a state of war and likely to wage war on Iran over nukes very soon, 6. a gathering for Jews to be concentrated and then exterminated easily as opposed to being spread out through the world (see Pesachim 87b), 7. a parasite state sapping resources from local Jewish population by astronomically high taxes as well as from Jews of chu”l and numerous governments including the US, 8. a huge distraction requiring tremendous investment running the country which should be left to Gentiles, and also a source of contention amongst warring factions of observant Jews, 9. arguably the largest chillul Hashem in history - “Jews don’t have to keep the Torah,” defiling the Holy Land with immorality like Pride Parades, Hashem yerachem (would be much better if Israel was controlled by devote Muslims like Saudi Arabia). This is all in addition to the shittos of the Satmer Rav ob”m which truthfully many don’t hold of. Many books have chronicled the brainwashing, blackmailing, and gasslighting campaigns of the Zionists. No, Jews are not safer and more secure due to the State of Israel. The exact opposite is true. If not for Israel, we would have flourishing Jewish communities in other parts of the world, doing much better than those currently in Israel. The Chazon Ish and Ponovezh Rav would have landed in Florida or California, which would have become the Torah centers of Judaism. Antisemitism would be even lower than it is today. The US would be doing better because of additional millions of conservative voters. No problems with boys and girls being drafted to the army. No government campaigns to change the charedim. No headaches about terrorism and wars. The Jews in Arab countries would continue their peaceful coexistence with their neighbors, like they basically did for centuries. The Jews of Palestine would be few in number and great idealists. The Palestinian government would be proud of its Jews and allow them to worship peacefully. Any Jew wishing to visit the holy sights of Palestine (including East Jerusalem and the West Bank) would be free to do so, so long as they act with decency and respect.
Even a person who resides in Israel and is serviced by State mailmen, sanitation workers, or soldiers has little reason to have hakaras hatov to the State. If someone lights your house on fire and then goes in to save you, do you owe him hakaras hatov? No, you file a police report and stay as far away from him as you can. Yes, we could have hakaras hatov to the FSU for defeating Hitler many years ago. Yes, we could have hakaras hatov to Iraq for hosting the academies of Sura and Pumpedisa. We could have hakaras hatov to Spain for its golden age and Poland for its golden age. We could have hakaras hatov to the current governments of the US, France, England, Australia, and Argentina (I think of the CIA and MI6 when I pray for world peace). But we should absolutely not have hakaras hatov to the current State of Israel. The State of Israel is a historical disaster and an embarrassment to the Jewish people. Hakaras hatov to the police department of England? Yes. To the road workers of South Africa? Yes. To the garbage collectors of the Jewish neighborhoods of Melbourne? Yes. To the silly fools wearing the embarrassing “Jewish Star”? No. Most of them may be tinokos shenishbu regarding the “Jewish Star,” on an individual level. Therefore, of course you should say “please” and “thank you.” But on a global level, one should vomit and turn red at the sight of the “Jewish Star” or any mention of the “Jewish State” of Israel.
We all know some askonim. We all rely on them somewhat. They are the ones that open schools and negotiate with the government, sometimes on our behalf.
Yet, when we get to know them personally, some of them are truly rotten people, who treat others like garbage.
These are both indisputable facts.
What does Hakaras Hatov demand of us?
One thing I can tell you. Don't let anyone demand Hakaras Hatov. When someone demands Hakaras Hatov, he is charging you much more than you are willing to pay.
Yup. Twas the point of this post. Baruch Hashem it turned out the opposite way the mostly anti-Torah founders intended, וכן ירבו. We should also thank the chareidi politicians who facilitated that.
Also thanks to Stalin's agreement, Czechoslovakia armed Israel in 1948 and also trained many Israeli miltary personnel.
Also on May 17, 1948, three days after Israel declared independence, the Soviet Union legally recognized it de jure, becoming the first country to grant de jure recognition to the Jewish state.
Later the SU was quite anti-Zionist, but after Stalin's death.
I think you are saying that just like no rational westerner would outwardly express hakaras hatov to the Soviets, so too there is no reason to outwardly express hakaras hatov to the Zionists. Is this post tongue in cheek (i.e. expecting hakaras hatov to Zionists is as ludicrous as expecting it for Soviets) or are you saying hakaras hatov is valid but should be kept on the inside?
It's a bit of both. It's complicated. There needs to be hakaras hara as well as hakaras hatov. The main difference from the Soviet Union is that was 78 years ago. People have short memories. The same is with the anti-Torah attitudes of the founders of the State 75 years ago. We need to recognize the tremendous damage they did, and their ideological descendants continue to do. We definitely should express hakaras hatov for the good, but the Gedolim we follow have taught us that it shouldn't be on THEIR terms, as that would be construed as giving legitimacy to their secularist agenda. Therefore, we are grateful and thankful, especially to individual soldiers who are tinokos shenishbu, but we don't need to say Hallel or celebrate on the חג אשר בדו מלבם.
You haven't uncomplicated it at all. How can it be a bit of both? If its ludicrous to expect hakaras hatov then just say so and lets leave it at that. If it's not ludicrous then it should be expressed openly, albeit not on their terms. That is not done by any charedim (with the exception of some kiruv people saying misheberach for soldiers).
I think it is unreasonable to EXPECT speeches and ceremonies in honor of the founding of the state, when most of the founders were expressly anti-Torah. We have long memories. But hakaras hatov doesn't need speeches or ceremonies. For an example of a complicated sort of hakaras hatov (at least in my opinion), Rashi says לא תתעב מצרי. מִכֹּל וָכֹל, אַף עַל פִּי שֶׁזָּרְקוּ זְכוּרֵיכֶם לַיְאוֹר. מַה טַּעַם? שֶׁהָיוּ לָכֶם אַכְסַנְיָא בִּשְׁעַת הַדְּחָק. I believe this is an expression of hakaras hatov, yet it doesn't mean we have an Egyptian appreciation ceremony every year.
Hakaras hatov is not about feeling a certain way or telling YOURSELF how grateful you are. It is about expressing that to others. It cannot be done in private. Now that doesn't mean you need public speeches and ceremonies etc., but there has to be some kind of conveyance of that feeling of appreciation to others. Also, what's wrong with speeches and ceremonies if they recognize the positive while also pointing out the negative. At the very least it should be taught to our children.
On a more serious note: If the original Zionists were religious and founded Israel as a Torah theocracy (or if it becomes a Torah theocracy) would you then consider yourself a Zionist?
It's hard to say what I would be in a theoretical situation 75 or 100 years ago, but if they created a Torah theocracy, I can't see how that could be anything other than very good (I don't hold of the Satmar interpretation of שלש שבועות).
And yet again you demonstrate to us what passes for yeshivish learning in this day and age.
You could have (but of course you are totally incapable) provided a reasoned and thought out essay on the complex relationship that chareidim l'dvar Hashem should have with, and the correct attidute to the secular state and its leaders through the ages, that has provided so much to enable the flourishing of torah in EY. But don't worrry, that has been done by those more learned and erudite then you.
Instead you build a straw man moshol to the USSR, so we can spend the rest of seider discussing (or should that be shouting at each other with appropriate hand and finger gestures) how accurate your moshol is to the nimshal. Rather than focus on the 'etzem nekudah'.
Very interesting.
However, I would make a reservation on two of your points:
1. "The State has provided a safe haven for millions of Jews since the end of World War II "
Do not forget that it was the settling in Eretz Yisrael by irreligious Jews, who antagonized the religious Muslim Arab native inhabitants and, later on, in particular, the establishment of the State , which generated the arguably unprecedented outbreak of hatred against those Jews in Arab countries who had previously enjoyed a comparatively peaceful coexistence and tolerance.
It may be wondered whether the number of Jewish casualties of anti-Israel aggression -(https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-casualties-in-battle-1860-present )
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/comprehensive-listing-of-terrorism-victims-in-israel
does not add up to more than there would have been without Zionism.
2. "ended up becoming the biggest material Torah supporters in a thousand years. "
As someone with first hand knowledge of the huge, huge amount of money which flows into the country constantly to support Torah by generous Orthodox Jews in the diaspora, the contribution to Torah institutions by the Israeli government is miniscule! It is a mere fraction of the amounts invested in secular institutions, whether "educational" institutions, sport, "culture", etc. - and even that is only after being squeezed out of it by Haredi politicians, who are in a constant uphill battle for their constituents to receive at least something approaching the amounts that their secular brothers receive. And even then it is given with bad grace, and accompanied by vicious slander.
3.
"they have also done a great deal of good on the material plane, which in turn has led to incredible and unparalleled flourishing of the Torah in the form of Talmud Torahs, yeshivos, shuls, kollel families and essential non-spiritual institutions, such as the military, roads, homebuilding, electricity, and hospitals."
This argument may be partially true, but it is like saying that it is only thanks to the superior Israeli armed forces that Israel won such a dazzling victory in the Six Day War!
That is certainly true, but, ahem, perhaps there was a deeper, spiritual reason......?
"That is certainly true, but, ahem, perhaps there was a deeper, spiritual reason......?"
Absolutely, perhaps I wasn't clear enough on that point, but we have made that clear elsewhere
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/does-torah-protect
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-parable-of-the-drowning-man
"Do not forget that it was the settling in Eretz Yisrael by irreligious Jews, who antagonized the religious Muslim Arab native inhabitants and, later on, in particular, the establishment of the State , which generated the arguably unprecedented outbreak of hatred against those Jews in Arab countries who had previously enjoyed a comparatively peaceful coexistence and tolerance."
Highly questionable. Already by the mid 19th century you had blood libels en-masse in the Arab world (before Zionism). The Ottomans and other groups committed all sorts of atrocities over the past 200 years against Turkic Christians, Kurds, Marionite Christians etc. Assuming Jews would be left alone is wishful thinking.
Some fun relevant factoids from a historian who specializes in genocide studies I know:
- Between 1890 and 1908, over 2/3’s of the population in just the Mount Lebanon area alone fled from their homeland to escape Arabist massacres and persecution of the **majority** Aramean populations
-New research into the Armenian Genocide has shown that organized massacres of Armenians actually began as early as the 1880’s at the hands of Turkish AND Arab race nationalists. The crescendo was the full on event in 1915.
-There were massacres and organized persecution-to-create-mass-flight of Assyrians, Chaldeans, Kurds, Yazidis, Yarsunis, and even Turkmen at the hands of Arab race nationalists in Iraq
-the Baathist and Ba’ath-aligned nationalists frequently positively call themselves “basically Arab Nazis”
-Turkish race nationalists, the Grey Wolves, asserted that there was an international conspiracy by Armenians to limit Turkey and that this is what justifies assassinating Armenians abroad and oppressing Turks and Kurds (or Arabs) of any Armenian heritage
-Iranian Nationalists carried out atrocities against the non-“Aryans”, such as the Azeris, the Kurds, the Lur Arabs, the Turkic peoples.
-There was a Baathist book called, “The Three Who Allah Should Not Have Made?" It argued that Allah made three mistakes during creation: Persians, Jews, and Flies. It argues eventually that actually flies play a vital ecological role, but that Persians and Jews really are racial and creator mistakes that the superior Arab race must exterminate. This book was so popular that Saddam’s desk had it in the drawer, and he had even carved its name into the desk.
-1/5 Egyptians were Copts just a few decades ago. Today, that figure is less than 1/20. How does one imagine that happened? Answer:Egyptian Arabist movement’s attempts to obliterate their own indigenous Coptic population
-Every single one of these majority popularity movements explicitly said “The Jews are the racial enemy of our people and we must exterminate them to succeed or our race will be overtaken and destroyed by the Jews,” with the sole exception of Turks, who still had significant animosity towards Jews within Turkey itself.
Testing
(Hey, Mazel tov--my browser let me through. Lots of good &/or humorous posts going on here, such as this one.)
Point 2 is very important. If you have documentation for it available you can make a great impact. Only that the institutions often aren't interested in the attention.
Wow! I thought rationalist Judaism was the one with the kefira!
This is a brilliant post but it left me scratching my head. The State of Israel is 1. the most dangerous place where Jews live in large numbers in the world, 2. less materially developed than the US and Europe where Jews live comfortably, 3. a source of major international headache due to the Arab-Israeli conflict, 4. a source of real antisemitism both because of disregard for Torah and also because of Arab-Israeli conflict, 5. perpetually in a state of war and likely to wage war on Iran over nukes very soon, 6. a gathering for Jews to be concentrated and then exterminated easily as opposed to being spread out through the world (see Pesachim 87b), 7. a parasite state sapping resources from local Jewish population by astronomically high taxes as well as from Jews of chu”l and numerous governments including the US, 8. a huge distraction requiring tremendous investment running the country which should be left to Gentiles, and also a source of contention amongst warring factions of observant Jews, 9. arguably the largest chillul Hashem in history - “Jews don’t have to keep the Torah,” defiling the Holy Land with immorality like Pride Parades, Hashem yerachem (would be much better if Israel was controlled by devote Muslims like Saudi Arabia). This is all in addition to the shittos of the Satmer Rav ob”m which truthfully many don’t hold of. Many books have chronicled the brainwashing, blackmailing, and gasslighting campaigns of the Zionists. No, Jews are not safer and more secure due to the State of Israel. The exact opposite is true. If not for Israel, we would have flourishing Jewish communities in other parts of the world, doing much better than those currently in Israel. The Chazon Ish and Ponovezh Rav would have landed in Florida or California, which would have become the Torah centers of Judaism. Antisemitism would be even lower than it is today. The US would be doing better because of additional millions of conservative voters. No problems with boys and girls being drafted to the army. No government campaigns to change the charedim. No headaches about terrorism and wars. The Jews in Arab countries would continue their peaceful coexistence with their neighbors, like they basically did for centuries. The Jews of Palestine would be few in number and great idealists. The Palestinian government would be proud of its Jews and allow them to worship peacefully. Any Jew wishing to visit the holy sights of Palestine (including East Jerusalem and the West Bank) would be free to do so, so long as they act with decency and respect.
Even a person who resides in Israel and is serviced by State mailmen, sanitation workers, or soldiers has little reason to have hakaras hatov to the State. If someone lights your house on fire and then goes in to save you, do you owe him hakaras hatov? No, you file a police report and stay as far away from him as you can. Yes, we could have hakaras hatov to the FSU for defeating Hitler many years ago. Yes, we could have hakaras hatov to Iraq for hosting the academies of Sura and Pumpedisa. We could have hakaras hatov to Spain for its golden age and Poland for its golden age. We could have hakaras hatov to the current governments of the US, France, England, Australia, and Argentina (I think of the CIA and MI6 when I pray for world peace). But we should absolutely not have hakaras hatov to the current State of Israel. The State of Israel is a historical disaster and an embarrassment to the Jewish people. Hakaras hatov to the police department of England? Yes. To the road workers of South Africa? Yes. To the garbage collectors of the Jewish neighborhoods of Melbourne? Yes. To the silly fools wearing the embarrassing “Jewish Star”? No. Most of them may be tinokos shenishbu regarding the “Jewish Star,” on an individual level. Therefore, of course you should say “please” and “thank you.” But on a global level, one should vomit and turn red at the sight of the “Jewish Star” or any mention of the “Jewish State” of Israel.
We all know some askonim. We all rely on them somewhat. They are the ones that open schools and negotiate with the government, sometimes on our behalf.
Yet, when we get to know them personally, some of them are truly rotten people, who treat others like garbage.
These are both indisputable facts.
What does Hakaras Hatov demand of us?
One thing I can tell you. Don't let anyone demand Hakaras Hatov. When someone demands Hakaras Hatov, he is charging you much more than you are willing to pay.
https://dusiznies.blogspot.com/2023/04/how-zionists-destroyed-yiddishkeit-in.html
Yup. Twas the point of this post. Baruch Hashem it turned out the opposite way the mostly anti-Torah founders intended, וכן ירבו. We should also thank the chareidi politicians who facilitated that.
זיי פרעגען אדער זאגען?
Also thanks to Stalin's agreement, Czechoslovakia armed Israel in 1948 and also trained many Israeli miltary personnel.
Also on May 17, 1948, three days after Israel declared independence, the Soviet Union legally recognized it de jure, becoming the first country to grant de jure recognition to the Jewish state.
Later the SU was quite anti-Zionist, but after Stalin's death.
I think you are saying that just like no rational westerner would outwardly express hakaras hatov to the Soviets, so too there is no reason to outwardly express hakaras hatov to the Zionists. Is this post tongue in cheek (i.e. expecting hakaras hatov to Zionists is as ludicrous as expecting it for Soviets) or are you saying hakaras hatov is valid but should be kept on the inside?
It's a bit of both. It's complicated. There needs to be hakaras hara as well as hakaras hatov. The main difference from the Soviet Union is that was 78 years ago. People have short memories. The same is with the anti-Torah attitudes of the founders of the State 75 years ago. We need to recognize the tremendous damage they did, and their ideological descendants continue to do. We definitely should express hakaras hatov for the good, but the Gedolim we follow have taught us that it shouldn't be on THEIR terms, as that would be construed as giving legitimacy to their secularist agenda. Therefore, we are grateful and thankful, especially to individual soldiers who are tinokos shenishbu, but we don't need to say Hallel or celebrate on the חג אשר בדו מלבם.
You haven't uncomplicated it at all. How can it be a bit of both? If its ludicrous to expect hakaras hatov then just say so and lets leave it at that. If it's not ludicrous then it should be expressed openly, albeit not on their terms. That is not done by any charedim (with the exception of some kiruv people saying misheberach for soldiers).
I think it is unreasonable to EXPECT speeches and ceremonies in honor of the founding of the state, when most of the founders were expressly anti-Torah. We have long memories. But hakaras hatov doesn't need speeches or ceremonies. For an example of a complicated sort of hakaras hatov (at least in my opinion), Rashi says לא תתעב מצרי. מִכֹּל וָכֹל, אַף עַל פִּי שֶׁזָּרְקוּ זְכוּרֵיכֶם לַיְאוֹר. מַה טַּעַם? שֶׁהָיוּ לָכֶם אַכְסַנְיָא בִּשְׁעַת הַדְּחָק. I believe this is an expression of hakaras hatov, yet it doesn't mean we have an Egyptian appreciation ceremony every year.
Hakaras hatov is not about feeling a certain way or telling YOURSELF how grateful you are. It is about expressing that to others. It cannot be done in private. Now that doesn't mean you need public speeches and ceremonies etc., but there has to be some kind of conveyance of that feeling of appreciation to others. Also, what's wrong with speeches and ceremonies if they recognize the positive while also pointing out the negative. At the very least it should be taught to our children.
What's an example of teaching our children the bad with the good and with the ugly? At what age can they digest it? Have you done so?
Does this post not count as a public expression?
That depends on what the post is saying. If it's tongue in cheek, then no it's not.
Ahh yes. The holocaust is יד השם while the מדינה is a מעשה שטן. That is what every frum yid must believe!
Looks like you meant to comment somewhere else #lostsubstackers. I mention it was Yad Hashem. Also see this https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-parable-of-the-drowning-man
However, your post was very interesting, and gave me food for thought which I had never considered previously!
As the Jewish soldiers sang in 1945:
טרינקט זשע אױס לחײם
פֿאַר דער רױטער אַרמײ
און װינטשעװעט זײ אַלע,
אַז געזונט זײַן זאָלן זײ
און װינטשט דעם חבֿר סטאַלין
ער זאָל זײַן מיט יאָר אַ סך
װײַל אױף דער גאַנצער װעלט
איז קײנער צו אים גלײַך
!!לחײם
Make a l'chaim yet again
For the red army
and give a toast to them all
that they should be healthy and well
and toast to Chaver Stalin
may he have many years before him
Because in the Gantze Velt
there is none like him
L'chaim!!!
https://youtu.be/NpeIy-MoKgQ?t=102
On a more serious note: If the original Zionists were religious and founded Israel as a Torah theocracy (or if it becomes a Torah theocracy) would you then consider yourself a Zionist?
That was right before Chaver Stalin showed his true colors!
I believe most of the original opposition to Zionism of the Gedolim was explicitly because of their secularism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredim_and_Zionism
I'm not asking so much about the Gedolim of yesteryear. I'm asking for *your* personal opinion.
It's hard to say what I would be in a theoretical situation 75 or 100 years ago, but if they created a Torah theocracy, I can't see how that could be anything other than very good (I don't hold of the Satmar interpretation of שלש שבועות).
You also have the information. Why not decide on your own?
And yet again you demonstrate to us what passes for yeshivish learning in this day and age.
You could have (but of course you are totally incapable) provided a reasoned and thought out essay on the complex relationship that chareidim l'dvar Hashem should have with, and the correct attidute to the secular state and its leaders through the ages, that has provided so much to enable the flourishing of torah in EY. But don't worrry, that has been done by those more learned and erudite then you.
Instead you build a straw man moshol to the USSR, so we can spend the rest of seider discussing (or should that be shouting at each other with appropriate hand and finger gestures) how accurate your moshol is to the nimshal. Rather than focus on the 'etzem nekudah'.
Classic yeshivish.
Huh? It's not a moshol
The name of this site is "Irrationalist Modoxism". I think it is lost on you.