This site is a total disgrace. The bizayon haTorah of R. Slifkin and others is appalling. What happened to human dignity, kavod habriut, loving your neighbor, respect and love for others? The vitriol is so disturbing and not consistent with the professed beliefs of the contributors.
We can discuss the blog and its goals and justifications sometime, but for now I have just one question for you: The contributors to this site, as well as many who read and appreciate it, are reasonably learned, pious Jews. Why aren't you concerned about the lack of kavod haTorah, derech eretz, and basic human dignity that drips from your angry, hate filled comment?
R. Slifkin and other well known rabbis are known scholars and leaders in their communities. just because your community is not so familiar with them is not a reason to resort to blatant disrespectful discourse. Engage in the substance and Torah issues like we find in Chaza"l. It is a sign of weakness to stoop so low.
The only reason Natan & Co are getting such royal treatment is because they have made it their life's mission to denigrate and besmirch the Chareidi community. By Natan's own admission, over 90% of his blog is dedicated to talking about "the problems" of the Chareidi community. Other than this very blog, there exists no parallel to that in the Chareidi world. Chareidim are frankly not too concerned about the problems in the MODOX world and don't think too much about the MODOX at all. Very unlike many MODOX who are constantly griping about the Chareidim.
You didn't answer the question. If you have a different approach, fine. You want to argue about our methods, fine. But what gives you the right to post such an angry, vitriolic, lack-of-derech-eretz, comment? Just because you're not familiar with our community and style?
As per Rabbenu Yonah, Natan, and his ilk, which perhaps includes you, are textbook "Haters of Hashem." Meticulous in observance, even learned, but begrudging the Charedi primacy of limud Torah as per our mesorah.
The entire issue, the relevance of the Chinuch, is baffling to me.
Hashgacha Pratis means that each person has hashgacha, and the world works for his benefit. His benefit does not mean more money, comfort or pleasure for him, but for him to serve Hashem. Meaning, if a person walks down the street, and the wind blows something in his way, that was orchestrated by Hashem for this person to serve Him better. It doesn't mean that the person will not die, he certainly will die. And after he dies, he will be dead, completely. Hashgacha Pratis never claimed that a person will not die.
Hashgacha Klalis is the same thing, but not for the individual animal, but for the entire species. It does not have to mean that the species will never die. It means that the world is geared towards the existence of this species for the benefit of Avodas Hashem. If nobody's Avodas Hashem requires it, they can go extinct, and that is not a contradiction to Hashgacha Klalis.
Malbin in Tehillim absolutely does insinuate that all species created do not become extinct, it's not just a general statement. The fact he seems to contradict himself in other places and the fact that this might be scientifically incorrect (it might not, it's very hard to prove a negative) is pretty meaningless. He's not basing his comments on Tehillim on Chazal or even science, he's simply independently trying to work out a pshat in the passuk. He might have been aware of people like Slifkin but didn't care about them, or maybe he truly didn't think someone could be as silly as Slifkin to dwell on this, like R' Rational Shlit"a himself points out. In other words, maybe Malbim was technically WRONG on this, but who cares? The rest of the post that discusses Netziv and others is likewise totally marginal, like R' Rational correctly notes.
as far as the Malbim is concerned, is it possible that he is referring to the "min" in general? i.e. "birds" will never go extinct, but "dodo birds" specifically can...?
However, there is no way to know what constitutes an original Torah species designation and what are subspecies and what are cross breeds. I think it's pretty clear that the Torah's taxonomic system is very broad. So you are correct, there's actually no real reason to assume that the Chinuch actually was incorrect.
Slifkin acknowledges this in a footnote but says something to the effect of "yeah but for sure some of the extinct stuff constitute an independent min". Cuz he says so.
(In the book he gets quite a chuckle out of the fact that the Chinuch mentions the re'em, which [Slifkin says] is the aurochs, which went extinct in 1623... Hee hee indeed, except that the aurochs was basically a large type of cattle similar to a bison and if you think that that constitutes an independent min you're nuts.)
However, as I tried to make very clear, my point in this article was not to argue over extinction but rather to analyze Dr Slifkin's claim on its own terms. That's why I didn't mention this angle.
A far better example that Slifkin could have used a scientific mesorah that was debunked is geocentrism. There, there clearly was an unambiguous mesorah of the sun going around the earth.
I highly recommend Jeremy Browns New Heavens and New Earth.
He *does* use that in his books and about 100 posts. IYH I will have a future post about why that is not even wrong from our perspective (don't worry, nothing to do with Einstein 😉), and all it shows is that many/most rabbis were not familiar with the details of the "new astronomy" and physics (surprise, surprise).
RT is just bringing a good example of sloppy scholarship.
In my humble opinion it's ok if they didn't know the new astronomy, as we discussed. I don't think it makes a halachic or hashkafic difference which astronomy you have. It's possible that others disagree with me.
Kepler, who came up with the laws of planetary motion, stole the data he based his equations on from Tycho Brahe. We never hear much of him, but he proposed an alternative to the Ptolemaic system we are told is geocentrism. It is not. It is ONE model of geocentrism. Only IT has been debunked. Tycho, a true genius, who designed his own instruments and collected data, without a telescope, over decades (his data was the gold standard and relied upon for centuries), proposed a model where the sun and moon rotate above us, and the planets orbit around the sun. His model makes a lot of sense.
Kepler was his jealous assistant who had visions of grandeur (much like Slifkin, who was viciously pranked as a teenager because he believed he was onto a Nobel-level discovery), and took advantage of Tycho's early death to steal his fame, basically.
In the end, for us, it makes no difference, though consider whose authority you accept as accurate here. There is no debunking. Brown's book does not serve that. It's a historical survey.
The Tanach makes repeated mention of a stationary, immobile, motionless earth.
The heliocentrists say the earth itself is moving in three separate vectors of acceleration simultaneously, while further subjecting everyone on it to a fourth vector due to the earth's rotation. They also say that none of this is detectable.
It's okay. I used to believe it too, in spite of the copious questions I had. After all, there are regular launches of satellites and space probes. I even worked on one. In the end, that's all there is, the illusion of sending things up above the rakia. No. There is a rakia, and we cannot pierce it. We send things up, but not that far up.
Bilaam's parting prophecy to Balak makes much more sense to me today. Amalek is the "first among nations?!" Really? Who even knows of Amalek today but traditional Jews? Rashi on this posuk leaves wondering how this explains a prophecy about the end. They truly are masters of deception and sowing doubt, behind the scenes.
This site is a total disgrace. The bizayon haTorah of R. Slifkin and others is appalling. What happened to human dignity, kavod habriut, loving your neighbor, respect and love for others? The vitriol is so disturbing and not consistent with the professed beliefs of the contributors.
You should be ashamed of yourselves!
We can discuss the blog and its goals and justifications sometime, but for now I have just one question for you: The contributors to this site, as well as many who read and appreciate it, are reasonably learned, pious Jews. Why aren't you concerned about the lack of kavod haTorah, derech eretz, and basic human dignity that drips from your angry, hate filled comment?
R. Slifkin and other well known rabbis are known scholars and leaders in their communities. just because your community is not so familiar with them is not a reason to resort to blatant disrespectful discourse. Engage in the substance and Torah issues like we find in Chaza"l. It is a sign of weakness to stoop so low.
The only reason Natan & Co are getting such royal treatment is because they have made it their life's mission to denigrate and besmirch the Chareidi community. By Natan's own admission, over 90% of his blog is dedicated to talking about "the problems" of the Chareidi community. Other than this very blog, there exists no parallel to that in the Chareidi world. Chareidim are frankly not too concerned about the problems in the MODOX world and don't think too much about the MODOX at all. Very unlike many MODOX who are constantly griping about the Chareidim.
love the new profile pic!!
Being banned is worth celebrating. Mazel tov! And Chag Samayach.
You didn't answer the question. If you have a different approach, fine. You want to argue about our methods, fine. But what gives you the right to post such an angry, vitriolic, lack-of-derech-eretz, comment? Just because you're not familiar with our community and style?
“Engage in the substance and Torah issues like we find in Chaza"l. It is a sign of weakness to stoop so low.”
How familiar are you with Chazal? There is plenty of rhetoric mixed in with the substance of Chazal. Shimshon will be happy to provide citations.
The "you" here is obviously directed to jl, not you, Lou.
As per Rabbenu Yonah, Natan, and his ilk, which perhaps includes you, are textbook "Haters of Hashem." Meticulous in observance, even learned, but begrudging the Charedi primacy of limud Torah as per our mesorah.
The entire issue, the relevance of the Chinuch, is baffling to me.
Hashgacha Pratis means that each person has hashgacha, and the world works for his benefit. His benefit does not mean more money, comfort or pleasure for him, but for him to serve Hashem. Meaning, if a person walks down the street, and the wind blows something in his way, that was orchestrated by Hashem for this person to serve Him better. It doesn't mean that the person will not die, he certainly will die. And after he dies, he will be dead, completely. Hashgacha Pratis never claimed that a person will not die.
Hashgacha Klalis is the same thing, but not for the individual animal, but for the entire species. It does not have to mean that the species will never die. It means that the world is geared towards the existence of this species for the benefit of Avodas Hashem. If nobody's Avodas Hashem requires it, they can go extinct, and that is not a contradiction to Hashgacha Klalis.
Great post by R' Rational!
Malbin in Tehillim absolutely does insinuate that all species created do not become extinct, it's not just a general statement. The fact he seems to contradict himself in other places and the fact that this might be scientifically incorrect (it might not, it's very hard to prove a negative) is pretty meaningless. He's not basing his comments on Tehillim on Chazal or even science, he's simply independently trying to work out a pshat in the passuk. He might have been aware of people like Slifkin but didn't care about them, or maybe he truly didn't think someone could be as silly as Slifkin to dwell on this, like R' Rational Shlit"a himself points out. In other words, maybe Malbim was technically WRONG on this, but who cares? The rest of the post that discusses Netziv and others is likewise totally marginal, like R' Rational correctly notes.
as far as the Malbim is concerned, is it possible that he is referring to the "min" in general? i.e. "birds" will never go extinct, but "dodo birds" specifically can...?
Min is a species. It doesn't just mean birds.
However, there is no way to know what constitutes an original Torah species designation and what are subspecies and what are cross breeds. I think it's pretty clear that the Torah's taxonomic system is very broad. So you are correct, there's actually no real reason to assume that the Chinuch actually was incorrect.
Slifkin acknowledges this in a footnote but says something to the effect of "yeah but for sure some of the extinct stuff constitute an independent min". Cuz he says so.
(In the book he gets quite a chuckle out of the fact that the Chinuch mentions the re'em, which [Slifkin says] is the aurochs, which went extinct in 1623... Hee hee indeed, except that the aurochs was basically a large type of cattle similar to a bison and if you think that that constitutes an independent min you're nuts.)
However, as I tried to make very clear, my point in this article was not to argue over extinction but rather to analyze Dr Slifkin's claim on its own terms. That's why I didn't mention this angle.
Two words: the shamir.
Two words: What shaychus?
The Moreh was written in Arabic, so we are dealing with translations anyway.
This is a small footnote, which does not change the fact that this article is right and Dr. Slifkin is wrong
A far better example that Slifkin could have used a scientific mesorah that was debunked is geocentrism. There, there clearly was an unambiguous mesorah of the sun going around the earth.
I highly recommend Jeremy Browns New Heavens and New Earth.
He *does* use that in his books and about 100 posts. IYH I will have a future post about why that is not even wrong from our perspective (don't worry, nothing to do with Einstein 😉), and all it shows is that many/most rabbis were not familiar with the details of the "new astronomy" and physics (surprise, surprise).
RT is just bringing a good example of sloppy scholarship.
That's true.
How about Chazal? Is it OK if they didn't know either?
In my humble opinion it's ok if they didn't know the new astronomy, as we discussed. I don't think it makes a halachic or hashkafic difference which astronomy you have. It's possible that others disagree with me.
Kepler, who came up with the laws of planetary motion, stole the data he based his equations on from Tycho Brahe. We never hear much of him, but he proposed an alternative to the Ptolemaic system we are told is geocentrism. It is not. It is ONE model of geocentrism. Only IT has been debunked. Tycho, a true genius, who designed his own instruments and collected data, without a telescope, over decades (his data was the gold standard and relied upon for centuries), proposed a model where the sun and moon rotate above us, and the planets orbit around the sun. His model makes a lot of sense.
Kepler was his jealous assistant who had visions of grandeur (much like Slifkin, who was viciously pranked as a teenager because he believed he was onto a Nobel-level discovery), and took advantage of Tycho's early death to steal his fame, basically.
In the end, for us, it makes no difference, though consider whose authority you accept as accurate here. There is no debunking. Brown's book does not serve that. It's a historical survey.
The Tanach makes repeated mention of a stationary, immobile, motionless earth.
The heliocentrists say the earth itself is moving in three separate vectors of acceleration simultaneously, while further subjecting everyone on it to a fourth vector due to the earth's rotation. They also say that none of this is detectable.
It's okay. I used to believe it too, in spite of the copious questions I had. After all, there are regular launches of satellites and space probes. I even worked on one. In the end, that's all there is, the illusion of sending things up above the rakia. No. There is a rakia, and we cannot pierce it. We send things up, but not that far up.
Bilaam's parting prophecy to Balak makes much more sense to me today. Amalek is the "first among nations?!" Really? Who even knows of Amalek today but traditional Jews? Rashi on this posuk leaves wondering how this explains a prophecy about the end. They truly are masters of deception and sowing doubt, behind the scenes.
I strongly suggest you check yourself into the closest insane asylum.
It's okay. You don't know what vector and acceleration mean. Superior intelligence is often perceived as insane by retards.
Please don't.