"Unfortunately, the Modox did not learn this lesson. They cooperated with secularists who did not appreciate the value of Torah at all, and generally sent their children to schools that gave equal weight to Torah and secular studies, and then straight to college (or in Israel, the army) at 18, leading to the abysmal retention and observance that we see now."
This is a very convenient oversimplification. It also grossly distorts the reality. The facts remain that for a community which supposedly has an abysmal retention rate, they seem to stubbornly keep on existing and even growing. We can speculate about why that is, but pretending that everything left of torah vo'daas leads to shmad isn't a serious argument, any more than arguing that being sheltered automatically leads you to become a lev tahor wacko.
<End latest rant. For earlier rantings along similar lines see links below.>
"Come on. You're conveniently sorting everyone into 2 categories based on whether you think they're devoted to Hashem or not, and then pointing out that those unlucky enough to be in the bucket in which you just dumped all of your amalek-adjacent eirev rav are- surprise!- amalek-adjacent eirev rav."
"You're ignoring everyone in between. OO is pretty fringe within MO too. Their smicha isn't recognized by the RCA or OU. Ironically, some old timers there have complained that MO is becoming a version of charedi Judaism. At any rate, these discussions aren't new. They go back to the glory days of the Jewish Observer and R 'Gifter slaughtering Lamm' etc. From what I can tell, MO isn't going anywhere, but I guess time will tell."
I am talking about schools like Ramaz. Is that OO? I think that's mainstream Modox. But there is a spectrum, and the ones that stay closer to Torah only have accordingly better retention.
I never said they are disappearing. It is possibly to hold steady or grow with an abysmal 40% dropout rate, if on average every couple has 3+1/3 kids. I can believe the modox have that many kids.
So for all you know, the charedi retention rate is worse than the MO one. Having giant families enables you to lose even *more* people and keep thriving.
If so, things changed. When I grew up in Teaneck, about thirty years ago, Ramaz was consudered very very left wing, and Frisch was considered borderline left-wing mainstream. (I went to JEC, which was considered right-wing)
I actually know less about Frisch. Maybe im wrong and theyre more like Hanc. Yes JEC is almost like MTA i'd say. The single-gender schools are very different.
Really. Im from NY so wouldnt be so familiar but i always thought they were the left of the single gender schools. DRS is the most right id say before you get to May which is actually Yeshivish.
I happen to think that there is a very good answer to the missing years. I don't want to get into it here, but please feel free to send an email to yerushalmi708@gmail.com
Wow. I wouldn't have expected that coming from you:) in any case, do you have an explanation how this discrepancy happened? This whole idea that someone, whether Chazal or Herodotus, were off by 160 years is troublesome as to how that happened.
I see this whole thing as one big צ"ע. I am not willing to definitively say that Chazal were wrong. Maybe they meant something with those years. Like maybe weren't counting the 165 years because Israel had it's own dominion and wasn't controlled by the Persians (just speculating)- very dochak though. Or maybe takeh all the Greek history mistaken, and we have to compress 200 years of Greek history into 35. And also the Babylonian solar tablets are misinterpreted. Again, very dochak.
But IF they were mistaken, it's because of what I said- that Chazal simply didn't have annual historical records available- that wasn't a standard part of the Torah sheBaal Peh that was passed down from generation to generation. See how many times the Radak argues with Chazal over the number of years in each reign in Melachim, he clearly feels that they didn't have record for those years. So where did they get 420 years from? I think they got it from the pesukim in Daniel וְתֵדַ֨ע וְתַשְׂכֵּ֜ל מִן־מֹצָ֣א דָבָ֗ר לְהָשִׁיב֙ וְלִבְנ֤וֹת יְרֽוּשָׁלִַ֙ם֙ עַד־מָשִׁ֣יחַ נָגִ֔יד שָׁבֻעִ֖ים שִׁבְעָ֑ה וְשָׁבֻעִ֞ים שִׁשִּׁ֣ים וּשְׁנַ֗יִם תָּשׁוּב֙ וְנִבְנְתָה֙ רְח֣וֹב וְחָר֔וּץ וּבְצ֖וֹק הָעִתִּֽים׃ (and it's clearly implied in Seder Olam that they are coming from those pesukim), and then worked backwards and tried to figure out how many years to give each reign. But again, צע"ג.
I've heard this and similar, but besides for the fact that Chazal were great, they also counted shmitta and yovel, (אפילו בימי בית שני מנו יובל לקדש שמיטה) and minyan shtaros. Additionally the pesukim in Nach care to count years all the time, so I don't see why they'd all of a sudden stop counting, and only wake up 500 years later to work retroactively. Also, it's not like they miscounted slightly over the years which mounted to a lot of small discrepancies, but left out one chunk in the beginning. I find this more troubling. And while I think Rav Schwabs answer is a conspiracy theory and far from convincing, at least it addresses those points.
I am not holding in the sugya of shmitta and yovel, but I am not certain that counting shemitta and yovel is a guarantee of counting the total number of yovels. Minyan shtaros is a better proof if they were indeed counting from Alexander, but isn't the general rule to usually count from the current king?
Here is my question about Nach- if they were counting the years like in Nach, where are the seforim about it? Why do we have no seforim from that period with year counts? Why is the only thing we have Seder Olam from 500 years later, and with only a couple of pages devoted to the entire Bayis Sheini period? Maybe they did have seforim and they were lost, but does Chazal mention such seforim anywhere?
I am holding:) so about yovel, if the years were off by only 150 years that would help. (maybe that could be modified.)
The fact they would normally count to that king is mentioned in Avoda Zara but they specifically instituted minyan shtaros so people don't get confused with the king, although that was the general practice. In other words, counting was still a thing then.
As far as why there are no sefarim, we have no sefarim after nechemia or divrei hayamim, so this is no different than any question on TSBP. Like there's no mention of sefarim on hilchos shabbos before the masechta, even though there were many takanos from the time of shlomo even, and is only mentioned in a few remazim in pesukim. Chronology exists in other areas of chazal, like in Avoda zara and Eruchin, but only one was canonized during the time of the mishna.
I know you know all this but I'm just putting this together for the perspective.
R. Alexander Hool has two books that discuss the missing 165 years (The Challenge of Jewish History) in the Persian/Greek period, which I was aware of, and the missing 1000 years of Egyptian history (Pharaoh), which I wasn't. Very good reading. I think they make good arguments for our mesorah over theirs.
Thank you, I did see that and even left some comments about a year ago! I am not quite convinced of that theory, but the author did admit that it was a work in progress.
I appreciate your defense of our community and the "yeshiva world", although imho you are not grasping the larger historical phenomena of the ghetto Jews, as you say:
"In the past, most Jewish communities were essentially separate from non-Jewish society, set apart by cultural, linguistic, geographical, and legal barriers, and the entire individual, family, and communal life revolved around the Torah. It was very difficult for people to just go “off the derech” without converting to Christianity and Islam, which would completely cut them off from their previous life."
As pointed out by Rav Hirsch and any student of historyn, the state of the ghetto jew was not and IS not the ideal state of the jewish community. This is extremely important to understand and is significant for this conversation. Almost every single Rishon that lived in the relatively hospitable territories of North Africa or Spain/Portugal were of the opinion of what I would call "unified knowledge" (Ayin Ibn Ezra's Yesod Morah https://www.sefaria.org/Yesod_Mora_VeSod_HaTorah), basically that studying and having knowledge of the sciences (biology, astronomy, mathematics, logic) are integral in a Jewish world view. This was the mesorah that clearly traces back through the geonim, amoraim, tanaim etc. It was only through persecution that forced jews out of these endeavors that we had to narrow our worldviews and cling to study for studies sake. Yes, there was a time when the great leaders of Klal Yisroel were (and HAD to be) masters of many branches of wisdom. (The Vilna Gaon was clear on this point of having a unified worldview through the seven branches of wisdom). I think the Chazon Ish bemoaned the fact that he heard jews speak about "lemudai chol" vs "lemudai kodesh" when in reality no such rift exists. The problem started centuries before the haskalah or the holocaust but unfortunately those events have had the tragic effect of deepening the chasm even wider. I agree that the MO position is just as faulty by not imbuing a deep sense of Jewish responsibility. What can I say we are not in the times of the Redemption yet, so it seems the rift will remain. Shkoyach for your piece.
I am aware of that. I even mentioned Rav Hirsch's derech without judging whether it is correct or not on its own merits (who am I to judge?) My point was that empirically, it seems our community has been able to combat the influence of secularism, whereas those communities that are into "unified knowledge" are not. You might argue this is an oversimplification, and I agree, but I think in general I am right.
"It seems our community has been able to combat the influence of secularism"
Seen the ads for luxury goods in Ami, Mishpacha, and Hamodia recently? Now is Pesach hotel advertising time. Take a good look and think a bit.
Been in a yeshivish diroh recently, are you aware of the drinking issue amongst bochurim and young adults?
Is a bochur spending late nights surfing the web ok, provided one is not under the "influence of secularism" by continuing to wear a white shirt, hat and jacket?
Keep those blinkers on, mate. Keep defining 'secularism' in a manner to suit yourself.
Pesach hotels, chilul shabbos. Same thing. Drinking in diras, drinking with girls, same thing. Surfing the web one night you get a hold of it, constant open smartphone, same thing
Of course it is an oversimplification, but that is beside the point. I don't think any Jewish community around today is tethered to ancient mesorah, most of what we have left are reactions and counter-reactions to traumatic events that occured in the past two centuries. What our community should get credit for is still having the Torah "ideal" even if we are far from the point. The function of Judaism was obviously never to turn the Jews into an isolated, sheltered, and educationally deprived community, you know that.
I think we agree more than we disagree. I would say that we are tethered to the ancient mesorah, although the implementation differs depending on the circumstances, the struggle against secularism being one of them. I also think that the Torah "ideal" of making the Torah the center of life is a very big deal and extremely fundamental, as I show in the post, and is something that we do much better than our brethren of other communities (Modox and to a lesser extent, chassidish).
You say
"...studying and having knowledge of the sciences (biology, astronomy, mathematics, logic) are integral in a Jewish world view. This was the mesorah that clearly traces back through the geonim, *amoraim*, *tanaim* etc."
I am very skeptical of this. I know this is what the Spanish and North African Rishonim held, but it's very hard to see this from Chazal themselves. They clearly had an interest in some secular knowledge for practical purposes, like astronomy to calculate the Molad, some mathematics for Succah, Eruvin, and Kilayim, and folk medicine, but otherwise, the Talmud and Medrash is mostly devoid of secular knowledge, especially considering the vast literature of Greek, Romans, Persians, that would have been available to Chazal. The general attitude seems to be contempt for secular knowledge. And yes, I know those Rishonim held Chazal were really great philosophers and scientists, and the Aggada contains the secrets of metaphysics, etc, but that is hard to see. The Mesorah of French/Ashkenazic Rishonim and ultimately our yeshivish mesorah seems to fit Chazal better. Just my perspective, but who am I to judge.
Additionally, the path from Chazal's כל מי שאינו חושב בתקופות ומזלות עליו הכתוב אומר (ישעיהו ה׳:י״ב) ואת פועל ה' לא הביטו to Rav Lichtenstein's "learning Chaucer and Milton is a vital part of Avodas Hashem" is a long and highly suspect one indeed.
The Shita on secular knowledge is based on a Teshuva of Rav Hai Gaon, who writes that secular knowledge is a maidservant to Torah, and is to be approached like that.
Indeed, the Rishonim and Acharonim on whom we rely for almost all of our Halacha, were not known as secular experts. Including the Spanish Ramban, Rashba, and Ritva. And in later generations, virtually all were opposed to secular knowledge as an end of itself, and they are not known for their secular knowledge. The Gra was, but he paskens in Shulchan Aruch that one may only learn secular knowledge דרך עראי. From the Maharsha till Reb Chaim Ozer, from the Noda BiYehuda till Reb Shlomo Zalman Auerbach.
Der Veker had a series of articles attempting to collect the list of historical Jewish figures who disprove this rule, but they failed to make a decent case for it at all. All were marginal figures or exceptions that prove the rule.
"From the Maharsha till Reb Chaim Ozer, from the Noda BiYehuda till Reb Shlomo Zalman Auerbach."
That's a lot of name dropping. What does each one say and where?
"And in later generations, virtually all were opposed to secular knowledge as an end of itself".
Firstly, what does 'an end of itself' mean? Relatively few people study secular stuff as 'an end of itself'.
And secondly, who is 'virtually all'. Again, more vagaries.
It's a nonsense of course. Many 'yeshivish communities' keep secular studies going post bar-mitzvah. And if it was 'against halochoh' they wouldn't do it post or even pre bar-mitzvah,
Why is it taught to banot, by the way? I appreciate they have a limited mitzvoh of talmud torah, but if the secular stuff is to be avoided, why is it done?
"I know this is what the Spanish and North African Rishonim held, but it's very hard to see this from Chazal themselves"
What is and is not in the gemoroh is not a proof for anything, Eino Shomeya eino rayah. What is good evidence is the behaviour and writings of the rishonim themselves (you think they would go against chazal?). However inconvenient it is for your narrative.
"The general attitude seems to be contempt for secular knowledge" - whereso? And don't respond with 'chochmas yevonis', which according to the meforshim is not broad 'secular knowledge'.
"The Mesorah of French/Ashkenazic Rishonim" - they don't condemn secular knowledge anywhere, do they? Again, you can't prove a mesorah from a negative.
I think the large absence of secular knowledge, and absence of encouragement to learn secular knowledge in the Talmud seems to contradict the idea that "studying and having knowledge of the sciences (biology, astronomy, mathematics, logic) are integral in a Jewish world view." Maybe it existed in some baal Peh form and the Ravina and Rav Ashi didn't want to write it down, I don't know. But it looks alot more like counterevidence than evidence.
Chochmas Yevonis is a good proof, because it seemed to be held as an important Chochma, and yet the Gemara calls it bitul Torah (Menachos 99b)
You are saying the French and Ashkenazic Rishonim held that it is important to have broad secular knowledge, in the same way the Rambam and Ibn Ezra did, but just didn't write it anywhere? Uh, no.
As an intellectually honest person I believe in the term 'eino shomeah eino rayah', even it contradicts a convenient narrative.
There is lots of stuff missing in the gemoroh that are considered very important, for example, reading the gemoroh at face value, davening with a minyan is a nice good thing, but nowhere near as essential as most of us consider it (Briskers and rebbes apart). That is from post gemoroh sources.
That's not a fair outlook. For example, we wear different clothng than they did way back, but we still fit in with the general idea that מלבוש ת"ח נאה ונקי. We wear different clothes based on styles (reactions), but we are following the general Mesorah of what clothes to wear. If you don't like this particular moshol, there are plenty of others.
The 'general mesora' is a system of values and priorities. We may need to change how we go about these things because of the times and because of our limited capabilities, but our priorities are very much the mesorah. In this regard, even Reb Hirsch is part of our mesora. Someone who doesn't know the seven חכמותis misssing. But I guarantee that the basics of חכמת הקבלה would be first on the Gra's list. And if we aren't holding by knowing everything, we prioritize halacha (gemara b'iyun), because that is first and foremost on the list of priorities and the other חכמות we can get to when/if we have time.
Well, you should publicize that a bit more. In yeshivaland, those that care about their appearance are treated as a little suspect and modernish, by the spitz yeshivish. Ill fitting clothes are too common.
"Rav Hirsh is not from our beis hamedrash". Didn't you know?
.....Almost every single Rishon that lived in the relatively hospitable territories of North Africa or Spain/Portugal.... would not be accepted in Lakewood as having kosher hashkofos in line with 'the mesorah'
Testie, perhaps it makes you feel like a hero to imagine that you are being persecuted, but actually, we just think that you are an idiot, trying to get back at your haredi father, rebbe, ex-wife or who ever it was that wronged you.
Good points. I also think the mesora of Spanish and north African Rishonim died with the inquisition, and soon after by Sephardim making kabbalah the main focus. So aside from Italy, the return of being educated was a revival due to the times but no one call call it "mesorah".
Yeah the Haskalah changed everything. People who say that charedism is a new invention are not understanding, or are at least pretending not to understand, that a new approach was needed in the face of modernity.
Every year is modern, dear. The reason why the haskoloh was, in a nutshell, so successful was the chinuch back then was little more than 'we don’t do it because that's the mesorah'.
Sound familiar?
The way to improve the position is to teach Jewish philosophy and thought properly and age appropriately and not keep those books close to, if not with, the banned section of the library. Teach the richness of Jewish history. An unfortunately high number of cheider yingelech will not know whether Purim or Chanukah came first, or the name of any king other than Dovid, Sholomo and Shaul. They (and a typical Lakewooder) will not know the last king of the Northern Kingdom or the Southern Kingdom. They won't know what those kingdoms are.
That was the problem back then, that is a problem now. You can't preserve by merely sheltering and keeping people ignorant.
I guarantee the kids from most typical American yeshivish type or RWMO families would cope in tzahal and remain fully religious. It wouldn’t be comfortable, true, but they remain fully religious in the workplace I don't think tzahal would be different. Yet for some reason, in artzeinu hakedoshoh, chareidim are worried their kids won't preserve their values in the army.
Bit strange, don't you think. Why do you think that is? What do you think the difference is?
Of course that might just be an excuse, chareidim simply arn't prepared to risk their lives, prefering others do it for them. I'm cynical, arn't I?
This is what I talk about in the post, the problem of cooperating with secularists on matters of chinuch. I don't think you are a secularist, but in the previous post you had many comments mocking Gemara, calling it crazy, and then you expect that people would take you seriously on matters of chinuch.
No, I was justifying the position of those that mock gemoroh, within their framework. Details matter, you know. But as usual, you just attack me rather than dealing with the fundamental point.
No, you didn't offer any alternative to the mockery, you didn't try to defend the Gemara, and you engaged in the mockery yourself. If you want to apologize to Chazal and start over, that's something else.
"You can't preserve by merely sheltering and keeping people ignorant."
Yes you can
"Yet for some reason, in artzeinu hakedoshoh, chareidim are worried their kids won't preserve their values in the army."
The army has, from it's very beginning, defined one of it's core missions as being a melting pot for Israeli society. Haredim have no wish to become part of Israeli society. The army also goes out of it's way to antagonize even it's uncle Tom RZ soldiers so really there is no place for a religious man in the IDF regardless.
Besides, no Jew should serve in an army that expels Jews from their homes, has rules of engagement that favor the lives of Arab civilians over that of Jews and has women soldiers.
"Of course that might just be an excuse, chareidim simply arn't prepared to risk their lives, prefering others do it for them."
Nobody is risking their lives for the haredim. If the state falls, the haredim will just move to America or Europe. The chiloni/traditional will be screwed, but the haredim will be fine.
I'd also like to remind you that while military service is mandatory, combat service is 100% voluntary. Even if all haredim were conscripted (and not one ever will be), the haredim still would not be risking their lives because they wouldn't volunteer for combat duty and would instead merely add to the IDF's already overly long roll of useless jobniks.
"If the state falls, the haredim will just move to America or Europe"
I suspect many of them will be dead or held hostage in Iran or somewhere charming like that. Yes, foreign citizens may be easy to leave, if they get enough warning. You think the US/ Europe will open its gates to fleeing Jews from Israel? And if they do, they won't distinguish between charedim and non-charedim.
You do have this habit of speaking like a bigshot with little real knowledge.
"You can't preserve by merely sheltering and keeping people ignorant." "Yes you can"
That didn't work in the shtetle did it? So history proves you wrong there.
I'm not going to debate the melting pot stuff, but if enough chareidim did sign up, it wouldn't be a problem. That's just a circular arguement.
"I suspect many of them will be dead or held hostage"
I doubt it. The Muslims didn't kill the Mizrahim in their lands even after the state was created. If Iran isn't killing it's Jews now, it's certainly not going to start once the medina is gone. It's not like the state of Israel would actually do anything if Iran or Morocco harmed their Jews
"You think the US/ Europe will open its gates to fleeing Jews from Israel?"
Yes
"And if they do, they won't distinguish between charedim and non-charedim"
That isn't what I meant. What I meant was that the haredim wouldn't care but the chilonim would be devastated as Israeli sabra culture would be destroyed forever and they would rapidly assimilate into oblivion
This guy lives in the UK but knows so much about Lakewood? I learnt navi in class in elementary school. A chart of all the kings and shoftim was hanging right in front of my nose a whole sixth grade. Jewish history was never in the banned section. And that's before I started taking nach seriously.
After sixth and seventh grade many can continue on their own, it's pretty easy and I was never discouraged. As far as when it may have been, I was born in the 90s.
Great post! I like how you explained the difference between Chasidic and non-Chasidic communities as well.
What an important post! Thank you Happy!!
"Unfortunately, the Modox did not learn this lesson. They cooperated with secularists who did not appreciate the value of Torah at all, and generally sent their children to schools that gave equal weight to Torah and secular studies, and then straight to college (or in Israel, the army) at 18, leading to the abysmal retention and observance that we see now."
This is a very convenient oversimplification. It also grossly distorts the reality. The facts remain that for a community which supposedly has an abysmal retention rate, they seem to stubbornly keep on existing and even growing. We can speculate about why that is, but pretending that everything left of torah vo'daas leads to shmad isn't a serious argument, any more than arguing that being sheltered automatically leads you to become a lev tahor wacko.
<End latest rant. For earlier rantings along similar lines see links below.>
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-challenge-of-modern-orthodoxy/comments
"Come on. You're conveniently sorting everyone into 2 categories based on whether you think they're devoted to Hashem or not, and then pointing out that those unlucky enough to be in the bucket in which you just dumped all of your amalek-adjacent eirev rav are- surprise!- amalek-adjacent eirev rav."
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-challenge-of-modern-orthodoxy/comment/17018659
"You're ignoring everyone in between. OO is pretty fringe within MO too. Their smicha isn't recognized by the RCA or OU. Ironically, some old timers there have complained that MO is becoming a version of charedi Judaism. At any rate, these discussions aren't new. They go back to the glory days of the Jewish Observer and R 'Gifter slaughtering Lamm' etc. From what I can tell, MO isn't going anywhere, but I guess time will tell."
I am talking about schools like Ramaz. Is that OO? I think that's mainstream Modox. But there is a spectrum, and the ones that stay closer to Torah only have accordingly better retention.
I never said they are disappearing. It is possibly to hold steady or grow with an abysmal 40% dropout rate, if on average every couple has 3+1/3 kids. I can believe the modox have that many kids.
Ramaz is not MO, more like OO. TABC is more like mainstream MO.
I see you erased your snarky comment. Wise choice.
So for all you know, the charedi retention rate is worse than the MO one. Having giant families enables you to lose even *more* people and keep thriving.
No, I'm pretty sure the modox retention rate is much worse.
Ramaz is not mainstream. They are the left of MO along with frisch.
If so, things changed. When I grew up in Teaneck, about thirty years ago, Ramaz was consudered very very left wing, and Frisch was considered borderline left-wing mainstream. (I went to JEC, which was considered right-wing)
Back then, we called only the leftwing - MO.
I actually know less about Frisch. Maybe im wrong and theyre more like Hanc. Yes JEC is almost like MTA i'd say. The single-gender schools are very different.
Back in my day, JEC was considered more right wing than MTA.
Really. Im from NY so wouldnt be so familiar but i always thought they were the left of the single gender schools. DRS is the most right id say before you get to May which is actually Yeshivish.
Yes even now the term "centrist"is adopted by many in the single-gender MO world
Of course. That's the term that R' Lichtenstein created
I happen to think that there is a very good answer to the missing years. I don't want to get into it here, but please feel free to send an email to yerushalmi708@gmail.com
I don't have much hope given all the other attempts I have seen, but I will email you.
Wow. I wouldn't have expected that coming from you:) in any case, do you have an explanation how this discrepancy happened? This whole idea that someone, whether Chazal or Herodotus, were off by 160 years is troublesome as to how that happened.
I see this whole thing as one big צ"ע. I am not willing to definitively say that Chazal were wrong. Maybe they meant something with those years. Like maybe weren't counting the 165 years because Israel had it's own dominion and wasn't controlled by the Persians (just speculating)- very dochak though. Or maybe takeh all the Greek history mistaken, and we have to compress 200 years of Greek history into 35. And also the Babylonian solar tablets are misinterpreted. Again, very dochak.
But IF they were mistaken, it's because of what I said- that Chazal simply didn't have annual historical records available- that wasn't a standard part of the Torah sheBaal Peh that was passed down from generation to generation. See how many times the Radak argues with Chazal over the number of years in each reign in Melachim, he clearly feels that they didn't have record for those years. So where did they get 420 years from? I think they got it from the pesukim in Daniel וְתֵדַ֨ע וְתַשְׂכֵּ֜ל מִן־מֹצָ֣א דָבָ֗ר לְהָשִׁיב֙ וְלִבְנ֤וֹת יְרֽוּשָׁלִַ֙ם֙ עַד־מָשִׁ֣יחַ נָגִ֔יד שָׁבֻעִ֖ים שִׁבְעָ֑ה וְשָׁבֻעִ֞ים שִׁשִּׁ֣ים וּשְׁנַ֗יִם תָּשׁוּב֙ וְנִבְנְתָה֙ רְח֣וֹב וְחָר֔וּץ וּבְצ֖וֹק הָעִתִּֽים׃ (and it's clearly implied in Seder Olam that they are coming from those pesukim), and then worked backwards and tried to figure out how many years to give each reign. But again, צע"ג.
I've heard this and similar, but besides for the fact that Chazal were great, they also counted shmitta and yovel, (אפילו בימי בית שני מנו יובל לקדש שמיטה) and minyan shtaros. Additionally the pesukim in Nach care to count years all the time, so I don't see why they'd all of a sudden stop counting, and only wake up 500 years later to work retroactively. Also, it's not like they miscounted slightly over the years which mounted to a lot of small discrepancies, but left out one chunk in the beginning. I find this more troubling. And while I think Rav Schwabs answer is a conspiracy theory and far from convincing, at least it addresses those points.
I am not holding in the sugya of shmitta and yovel, but I am not certain that counting shemitta and yovel is a guarantee of counting the total number of yovels. Minyan shtaros is a better proof if they were indeed counting from Alexander, but isn't the general rule to usually count from the current king?
Here is my question about Nach- if they were counting the years like in Nach, where are the seforim about it? Why do we have no seforim from that period with year counts? Why is the only thing we have Seder Olam from 500 years later, and with only a couple of pages devoted to the entire Bayis Sheini period? Maybe they did have seforim and they were lost, but does Chazal mention such seforim anywhere?
I am holding:) so about yovel, if the years were off by only 150 years that would help. (maybe that could be modified.)
The fact they would normally count to that king is mentioned in Avoda Zara but they specifically instituted minyan shtaros so people don't get confused with the king, although that was the general practice. In other words, counting was still a thing then.
As far as why there are no sefarim, we have no sefarim after nechemia or divrei hayamim, so this is no different than any question on TSBP. Like there's no mention of sefarim on hilchos shabbos before the masechta, even though there were many takanos from the time of shlomo even, and is only mentioned in a few remazim in pesukim. Chronology exists in other areas of chazal, like in Avoda zara and Eruchin, but only one was canonized during the time of the mishna.
I know you know all this but I'm just putting this together for the perspective.
R. Alexander Hool has two books that discuss the missing 165 years (The Challenge of Jewish History) in the Persian/Greek period, which I was aware of, and the missing 1000 years of Egyptian history (Pharaoh), which I wasn't. Very good reading. I think they make good arguments for our mesorah over theirs.
It makes sense you'd like them. They're essentially arguing for a huge conspiracy.
Your רב, הגר"י ענבל שליט"א, dealt with this here
https://rationalbelief.org.il/%d7%90%d7%95%d7%a8%d7%9a-%d7%94%d7%aa%d7%a7%d7%95%d7%a4%d7%94-%d7%94%d7%a4%d7%a8%d7%a1%d7%99%d7%aa/
Thank you, I did see that and even left some comments about a year ago! I am not quite convinced of that theory, but the author did admit that it was a work in progress.
I thought I'll at least be a מראה מקום...
לגופו של דבר, I think it's a probable מהלך
I appreciate your defense of our community and the "yeshiva world", although imho you are not grasping the larger historical phenomena of the ghetto Jews, as you say:
"In the past, most Jewish communities were essentially separate from non-Jewish society, set apart by cultural, linguistic, geographical, and legal barriers, and the entire individual, family, and communal life revolved around the Torah. It was very difficult for people to just go “off the derech” without converting to Christianity and Islam, which would completely cut them off from their previous life."
As pointed out by Rav Hirsch and any student of historyn, the state of the ghetto jew was not and IS not the ideal state of the jewish community. This is extremely important to understand and is significant for this conversation. Almost every single Rishon that lived in the relatively hospitable territories of North Africa or Spain/Portugal were of the opinion of what I would call "unified knowledge" (Ayin Ibn Ezra's Yesod Morah https://www.sefaria.org/Yesod_Mora_VeSod_HaTorah), basically that studying and having knowledge of the sciences (biology, astronomy, mathematics, logic) are integral in a Jewish world view. This was the mesorah that clearly traces back through the geonim, amoraim, tanaim etc. It was only through persecution that forced jews out of these endeavors that we had to narrow our worldviews and cling to study for studies sake. Yes, there was a time when the great leaders of Klal Yisroel were (and HAD to be) masters of many branches of wisdom. (The Vilna Gaon was clear on this point of having a unified worldview through the seven branches of wisdom). I think the Chazon Ish bemoaned the fact that he heard jews speak about "lemudai chol" vs "lemudai kodesh" when in reality no such rift exists. The problem started centuries before the haskalah or the holocaust but unfortunately those events have had the tragic effect of deepening the chasm even wider. I agree that the MO position is just as faulty by not imbuing a deep sense of Jewish responsibility. What can I say we are not in the times of the Redemption yet, so it seems the rift will remain. Shkoyach for your piece.
I am aware of that. I even mentioned Rav Hirsch's derech without judging whether it is correct or not on its own merits (who am I to judge?) My point was that empirically, it seems our community has been able to combat the influence of secularism, whereas those communities that are into "unified knowledge" are not. You might argue this is an oversimplification, and I agree, but I think in general I am right.
"It seems our community has been able to combat the influence of secularism"
Seen the ads for luxury goods in Ami, Mishpacha, and Hamodia recently? Now is Pesach hotel advertising time. Take a good look and think a bit.
Been in a yeshivish diroh recently, are you aware of the drinking issue amongst bochurim and young adults?
Is a bochur spending late nights surfing the web ok, provided one is not under the "influence of secularism" by continuing to wear a white shirt, hat and jacket?
Keep those blinkers on, mate. Keep defining 'secularism' in a manner to suit yourself.
Pesach hotels, chilul shabbos. Same thing. Drinking in diras, drinking with girls, same thing. Surfing the web one night you get a hold of it, constant open smartphone, same thing
Is that the best you can do?
No, but it's not like I need much to match you.
Anyway you are wrong. Drinking in diras is not the same as drinking with girls. The latter is much more fun, so I'm told.
Of course it is an oversimplification, but that is beside the point. I don't think any Jewish community around today is tethered to ancient mesorah, most of what we have left are reactions and counter-reactions to traumatic events that occured in the past two centuries. What our community should get credit for is still having the Torah "ideal" even if we are far from the point. The function of Judaism was obviously never to turn the Jews into an isolated, sheltered, and educationally deprived community, you know that.
I think we agree more than we disagree. I would say that we are tethered to the ancient mesorah, although the implementation differs depending on the circumstances, the struggle against secularism being one of them. I also think that the Torah "ideal" of making the Torah the center of life is a very big deal and extremely fundamental, as I show in the post, and is something that we do much better than our brethren of other communities (Modox and to a lesser extent, chassidish).
You say
"...studying and having knowledge of the sciences (biology, astronomy, mathematics, logic) are integral in a Jewish world view. This was the mesorah that clearly traces back through the geonim, *amoraim*, *tanaim* etc."
I am very skeptical of this. I know this is what the Spanish and North African Rishonim held, but it's very hard to see this from Chazal themselves. They clearly had an interest in some secular knowledge for practical purposes, like astronomy to calculate the Molad, some mathematics for Succah, Eruvin, and Kilayim, and folk medicine, but otherwise, the Talmud and Medrash is mostly devoid of secular knowledge, especially considering the vast literature of Greek, Romans, Persians, that would have been available to Chazal. The general attitude seems to be contempt for secular knowledge. And yes, I know those Rishonim held Chazal were really great philosophers and scientists, and the Aggada contains the secrets of metaphysics, etc, but that is hard to see. The Mesorah of French/Ashkenazic Rishonim and ultimately our yeshivish mesorah seems to fit Chazal better. Just my perspective, but who am I to judge.
Additionally, the path from Chazal's כל מי שאינו חושב בתקופות ומזלות עליו הכתוב אומר (ישעיהו ה׳:י״ב) ואת פועל ה' לא הביטו to Rav Lichtenstein's "learning Chaucer and Milton is a vital part of Avodas Hashem" is a long and highly suspect one indeed.
The Shita on secular knowledge is based on a Teshuva of Rav Hai Gaon, who writes that secular knowledge is a maidservant to Torah, and is to be approached like that.
Indeed, the Rishonim and Acharonim on whom we rely for almost all of our Halacha, were not known as secular experts. Including the Spanish Ramban, Rashba, and Ritva. And in later generations, virtually all were opposed to secular knowledge as an end of itself, and they are not known for their secular knowledge. The Gra was, but he paskens in Shulchan Aruch that one may only learn secular knowledge דרך עראי. From the Maharsha till Reb Chaim Ozer, from the Noda BiYehuda till Reb Shlomo Zalman Auerbach.
Der Veker had a series of articles attempting to collect the list of historical Jewish figures who disprove this rule, but they failed to make a decent case for it at all. All were marginal figures or exceptions that prove the rule.
"From the Maharsha till Reb Chaim Ozer, from the Noda BiYehuda till Reb Shlomo Zalman Auerbach."
That's a lot of name dropping. What does each one say and where?
"And in later generations, virtually all were opposed to secular knowledge as an end of itself".
Firstly, what does 'an end of itself' mean? Relatively few people study secular stuff as 'an end of itself'.
And secondly, who is 'virtually all'. Again, more vagaries.
It's a nonsense of course. Many 'yeshivish communities' keep secular studies going post bar-mitzvah. And if it was 'against halochoh' they wouldn't do it post or even pre bar-mitzvah,
Why is it taught to banot, by the way? I appreciate they have a limited mitzvoh of talmud torah, but if the secular stuff is to be avoided, why is it done?
You're conflating being an expert with being knowledgeable. The 2 aren't at all the same. And you don't need der vekker to make the point. Dr Leo Levi wrote about it years ago. https://www.google.com/books/edition/Torah_Study/BrZhRrV_a_QC?hl=en
So you thought I wouldn't know the other half of the story of that book.............
Conflating and obscurification is a key tool in these folks armoury.
"I know this is what the Spanish and North African Rishonim held, but it's very hard to see this from Chazal themselves"
What is and is not in the gemoroh is not a proof for anything, Eino Shomeya eino rayah. What is good evidence is the behaviour and writings of the rishonim themselves (you think they would go against chazal?). However inconvenient it is for your narrative.
"The general attitude seems to be contempt for secular knowledge" - whereso? And don't respond with 'chochmas yevonis', which according to the meforshim is not broad 'secular knowledge'.
"The Mesorah of French/Ashkenazic Rishonim" - they don't condemn secular knowledge anywhere, do they? Again, you can't prove a mesorah from a negative.
I think the large absence of secular knowledge, and absence of encouragement to learn secular knowledge in the Talmud seems to contradict the idea that "studying and having knowledge of the sciences (biology, astronomy, mathematics, logic) are integral in a Jewish world view." Maybe it existed in some baal Peh form and the Ravina and Rav Ashi didn't want to write it down, I don't know. But it looks alot more like counterevidence than evidence.
Chochmas Yevonis is a good proof, because it seemed to be held as an important Chochma, and yet the Gemara calls it bitul Torah (Menachos 99b)
You are saying the French and Ashkenazic Rishonim held that it is important to have broad secular knowledge, in the same way the Rambam and Ibn Ezra did, but just didn't write it anywhere? Uh, no.
As an intellectually honest person I believe in the term 'eino shomeah eino rayah', even it contradicts a convenient narrative.
There is lots of stuff missing in the gemoroh that are considered very important, for example, reading the gemoroh at face value, davening with a minyan is a nice good thing, but nowhere near as essential as most of us consider it (Briskers and rebbes apart). That is from post gemoroh sources.
That's not a fair outlook. For example, we wear different clothng than they did way back, but we still fit in with the general idea that מלבוש ת"ח נאה ונקי. We wear different clothes based on styles (reactions), but we are following the general Mesorah of what clothes to wear. If you don't like this particular moshol, there are plenty of others.
The 'general mesora' is a system of values and priorities. We may need to change how we go about these things because of the times and because of our limited capabilities, but our priorities are very much the mesorah. In this regard, even Reb Hirsch is part of our mesora. Someone who doesn't know the seven חכמותis misssing. But I guarantee that the basics of חכמת הקבלה would be first on the Gra's list. And if we aren't holding by knowing everything, we prioritize halacha (gemara b'iyun), because that is first and foremost on the list of priorities and the other חכמות we can get to when/if we have time.
חכמת הקבלה is not part of the שבע חכמות. It is נשמת התורה עצמה
Exactly. And it comes before the שבע חכמות.
Sorry if I wasn't clear.
What sort of neshomoh does the torah have?
What sort of neshomoh does the torah have?
And don't provide some link. Please answer the question.
It's called נשמתא דאורייתא.
"מלבוש ת"ח נאה ונקי"
Well, you should publicize that a bit more. In yeshivaland, those that care about their appearance are treated as a little suspect and modernish, by the spitz yeshivish. Ill fitting clothes are too common.
נאה ונקי=tight fit. hmmm. Ever hear one schmooze about gadlus haadam?
the point went straight over your head
"Rav Hirsh is not from our beis hamedrash". Didn't you know?
.....Almost every single Rishon that lived in the relatively hospitable territories of North Africa or Spain/Portugal.... would not be accepted in Lakewood as having kosher hashkofos in line with 'the mesorah'
Exactly my point
The so called "mesorah" that lakewood ostensibly follows does not go back more than 150 years (less than that if you were to get more technical)
Looks like you, like me, are an outlier here. Welcome to the club.
Beware of officers of the inquisition.
Testie, perhaps it makes you feel like a hero to imagine that you are being persecuted, but actually, we just think that you are an idiot, trying to get back at your haredi father, rebbe, ex-wife or who ever it was that wronged you.
No one expects the Spanish Testquistion...
There are other traditions than "rationalism". It's called דרך חכמי אשכנז וצרפת, as R' Happy נ"י pointed out.
From חז"ל you generally bring ראיות to both traditions.
Also, as Prof. תא שמע pointed out long ago, we see nothing "rationalist" from רי"ף or ר"י מיגאש and many גאונים
Good points. I also think the mesora of Spanish and north African Rishonim died with the inquisition, and soon after by Sephardim making kabbalah the main focus. So aside from Italy, the return of being educated was a revival due to the times but no one call call it "mesorah".
It died out much earlier, with the Muslim שמד.
Is there really a professor to shemah?
Its an Israeli name, ye
https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9C_%D7%9E%27_%D7%AA%D7%90-%D7%A9%D7%9E%D7%A2
Right. They would've looked around at the society changes of today and would've said the same. Yea
Yeah the Haskalah changed everything. People who say that charedism is a new invention are not understanding, or are at least pretending not to understand, that a new approach was needed in the face of modernity.
Every year is modern, dear. The reason why the haskoloh was, in a nutshell, so successful was the chinuch back then was little more than 'we don’t do it because that's the mesorah'.
Sound familiar?
The way to improve the position is to teach Jewish philosophy and thought properly and age appropriately and not keep those books close to, if not with, the banned section of the library. Teach the richness of Jewish history. An unfortunately high number of cheider yingelech will not know whether Purim or Chanukah came first, or the name of any king other than Dovid, Sholomo and Shaul. They (and a typical Lakewooder) will not know the last king of the Northern Kingdom or the Southern Kingdom. They won't know what those kingdoms are.
That was the problem back then, that is a problem now. You can't preserve by merely sheltering and keeping people ignorant.
I guarantee the kids from most typical American yeshivish type or RWMO families would cope in tzahal and remain fully religious. It wouldn’t be comfortable, true, but they remain fully religious in the workplace I don't think tzahal would be different. Yet for some reason, in artzeinu hakedoshoh, chareidim are worried their kids won't preserve their values in the army.
Bit strange, don't you think. Why do you think that is? What do you think the difference is?
Of course that might just be an excuse, chareidim simply arn't prepared to risk their lives, prefering others do it for them. I'm cynical, arn't I?
This is what I talk about in the post, the problem of cooperating with secularists on matters of chinuch. I don't think you are a secularist, but in the previous post you had many comments mocking Gemara, calling it crazy, and then you expect that people would take you seriously on matters of chinuch.
No, I was justifying the position of those that mock gemoroh, within their framework. Details matter, you know. But as usual, you just attack me rather than dealing with the fundamental point.
No, you didn't offer any alternative to the mockery, you didn't try to defend the Gemara, and you engaged in the mockery yourself. If you want to apologize to Chazal and start over, that's something else.
Then why couldn't you answer the question when I asked why you think gemara makes sense, if you claim to believe so.
Because I'm not obligated to answer your questions on demand, dear. Shocking isn't it?
I don't like your double standard. Imagine we told you that every time. You'd say we have nothing to answer. Well I'll say that now too.
"You can't preserve by merely sheltering and keeping people ignorant."
Yes you can
"Yet for some reason, in artzeinu hakedoshoh, chareidim are worried their kids won't preserve their values in the army."
The army has, from it's very beginning, defined one of it's core missions as being a melting pot for Israeli society. Haredim have no wish to become part of Israeli society. The army also goes out of it's way to antagonize even it's uncle Tom RZ soldiers so really there is no place for a religious man in the IDF regardless.
Besides, no Jew should serve in an army that expels Jews from their homes, has rules of engagement that favor the lives of Arab civilians over that of Jews and has women soldiers.
"Of course that might just be an excuse, chareidim simply arn't prepared to risk their lives, prefering others do it for them."
Nobody is risking their lives for the haredim. If the state falls, the haredim will just move to America or Europe. The chiloni/traditional will be screwed, but the haredim will be fine.
I'd also like to remind you that while military service is mandatory, combat service is 100% voluntary. Even if all haredim were conscripted (and not one ever will be), the haredim still would not be risking their lives because they wouldn't volunteer for combat duty and would instead merely add to the IDF's already overly long roll of useless jobniks.
"If the state falls, the haredim will just move to America or Europe"
I suspect many of them will be dead or held hostage in Iran or somewhere charming like that. Yes, foreign citizens may be easy to leave, if they get enough warning. You think the US/ Europe will open its gates to fleeing Jews from Israel? And if they do, they won't distinguish between charedim and non-charedim.
You do have this habit of speaking like a bigshot with little real knowledge.
"You can't preserve by merely sheltering and keeping people ignorant." "Yes you can"
That didn't work in the shtetle did it? So history proves you wrong there.
I'm not going to debate the melting pot stuff, but if enough chareidim did sign up, it wouldn't be a problem. That's just a circular arguement.
"I suspect many of them will be dead or held hostage"
I doubt it. The Muslims didn't kill the Mizrahim in their lands even after the state was created. If Iran isn't killing it's Jews now, it's certainly not going to start once the medina is gone. It's not like the state of Israel would actually do anything if Iran or Morocco harmed their Jews
"You think the US/ Europe will open its gates to fleeing Jews from Israel?"
Yes
"And if they do, they won't distinguish between charedim and non-charedim"
That isn't what I meant. What I meant was that the haredim wouldn't care but the chilonim would be devastated as Israeli sabra culture would be destroyed forever and they would rapidly assimilate into oblivion
And ur ok with them assimilating as you want the state destroyed. Are you jewish?
Moshiach will be here before the state has time to be destroyed
They didnt do much in WW2
This guy lives in the UK but knows so much about Lakewood? I learnt navi in class in elementary school. A chart of all the kings and shoftim was hanging right in front of my nose a whole sixth grade. Jewish history was never in the banned section. And that's before I started taking nach seriously.
The torah u'mesorah chart, no doubt.
What happened after sixth grade, though? And that may have been in the seventies/eighties before the fundamentalism really took off.
After sixth and seventh grade many can continue on their own, it's pretty easy and I was never discouraged. As far as when it may have been, I was born in the 90s.
We are the same age. Cool.
I think they actually don't get it. Nebach (poor things).