Let me just repeat something I mentioned in other discussions here. Everybody is aware of the issues with late minyanim, coffee rooms, long sheitels, gashmiyus etc (BTW these get worse the further left you go). Nobody thinks those are good things. No rabbanim endorse them and many constantly speak against them (unlike LW modox "rabbanim" who openly advocate violating the Torah, such as trying to justify kol isha, arayos, coed schools, chillul Shabbos, homosexuality, Bible Criticism, etc.)
But only "test" thinks that these are important features of chareidi life, compared to the immense amount of Torah, tefilah, dikduk hamitzvos, and chessed that is performed. Why is this? Obviously, as we all can testify, it not a reflection of chareidi society. Rather, it is what he himself focused on when he was a part of it.
Thus, it would make sense that he always attended late minyanim, and thinks that most chareidim daven at late minyanim.
That he spent all of his yeshiva years hanging out in the coffee room, and therefore thinks the main feature of a yeshiva is the coffee room.
That he is constantly looking at women, and is therefore an expert in sheitel lengths
That he spends all his time reading mishpacha instead of learning, and so all he knows from chareidi life is the mishpacha ads
I enjoyed very much your series, but I think your conclusion and description of Modern Orthodoxy is not accurate. The issue today is not so much connected to academia and science, but rather, secular lifestyle and culture. The kids in Frisch, Rutgers and Binghamton are not unfaithful to Torah because they have bought into science and an intellectual approach to knowledge. Their thinking is the same as their non-Jewish counterparts, and their lives are on Facebook , TikTok and associated frivolities.
Excellent article, and one I largely agree with. It's why I align myself with the yeshiva community instead of the modern orthodox community, despite finding the MO's answers more convincing.
I think the main issue is understanding what science is. I like Rav Sacks view that science just explains what things are while Torah explains what things truly mean. Seeing a contradiction between the two is silly because they are meant for two completely different things. One doesn't use science to explain the meaning of our existence just like one doesn't use Torah to observe the mechanical workings of the universe.
1. Although it is true that MO learning is sometimes too academic, the more Yeshivish can use some tweaking to become a bit more grounded. (I believe you acknowledge that.)
2. I once spoke to a student in Harvard Divinity School who was boasting he learns more about Judaism and Talmud study than I do in Yeshiva, since he is studying Josephus and the history of the surrounding cultures of the time while I just learn Gemara and Rambam. I replied that I also read Josephus ect., the difference is I read it in the bathroom and in bed, so what he's reading a whole day I read in the bathroom and what I learn all day he reads in the bathroom.
Almost all of the MO people that I have met, did not do a careful analysis of the sources and conclude that this is the correct path. They drifted into this type of observance. Poor knowledge of Torah or poor lifestyle choices, cause a person's observance to slacken. Eventually, enough falls away that we call them (or they call themselves) MO.
This is usually a de facto category, not one that is sought out.
“While we agree that it’s important to be nice, it is supposed to be from the fact that we are Hashem’s nation and being rude is a bad reflection of Hashem.[8] We are kind because to not be is a tremendous chilul Hashem“
I think you are missing the point of being nice. Is it okay for non-Jews to not be nice, because they are not from the chosen nation, and thereby not a reflection of Hashem?
"The problem with modoxy is: What of Hashem?? What of His Torah?? What about the things Hashem cares about?"
Mind clarifying what *makes* something 'modox' in your eyes? Can you offer any dividing lines between it and the Yeshivish world? I.e. You talk a lot about the problems with the former as compared to the latter, but it seems to me that you're skipping a few steps by not actually explaining what it *is* you're comparing to what.
To the extent that what you write is accurate (and now is not the time for paragraph by paragraph analysis) it is true only for upper league yeshivos. Which is a very small proportion of chareidim.
Once you get to middle and low tier yeshivos and ba'alei battim, including chassidim, what you write is totally non applicable and self righteous delusions of grandeur. Predominenr there is the garb and other chitzonious features. Everything revolves around money, no different to anybody else really. It's all about walking the walk and talking the talk and as you write 'being yeshivish'. Even learning halochoh is considered somewhat unyeshivish. How many ba'alei battim associated with the chareidi world know hilchos shabbos properly? Can deal with basic kitchen shailos themselves? Ask any chareidi rov what ridiculously simple shailos they get asked.
And the standard of learning, even in the top tier of yeshivos is, in the majority of cases, leaves a lot to be desired. When there are no tests, by definition there is no way of measuring standards. It's all about instant responses and shouting down a chavrusoh. And quoting by heart such as 'mefurash a rabbi akiva eiger' when the RAE doesn't exist or says something different to what is quoted. What percentage get a shach clear before moving on? Everything is often left q little vague. There is a reason why every other form of learning in the world has an assessment system.
Let me just repeat something I mentioned in other discussions here. Everybody is aware of the issues with late minyanim, coffee rooms, long sheitels, gashmiyus etc (BTW these get worse the further left you go). Nobody thinks those are good things. No rabbanim endorse them and many constantly speak against them (unlike LW modox "rabbanim" who openly advocate violating the Torah, such as trying to justify kol isha, arayos, coed schools, chillul Shabbos, homosexuality, Bible Criticism, etc.)
But only "test" thinks that these are important features of chareidi life, compared to the immense amount of Torah, tefilah, dikduk hamitzvos, and chessed that is performed. Why is this? Obviously, as we all can testify, it not a reflection of chareidi society. Rather, it is what he himself focused on when he was a part of it.
Thus, it would make sense that he always attended late minyanim, and thinks that most chareidim daven at late minyanim.
That he spent all of his yeshiva years hanging out in the coffee room, and therefore thinks the main feature of a yeshiva is the coffee room.
That he is constantly looking at women, and is therefore an expert in sheitel lengths
That he spends all his time reading mishpacha instead of learning, and so all he knows from chareidi life is the mishpacha ads
etc, etc,
I enjoyed very much your series, but I think your conclusion and description of Modern Orthodoxy is not accurate. The issue today is not so much connected to academia and science, but rather, secular lifestyle and culture. The kids in Frisch, Rutgers and Binghamton are not unfaithful to Torah because they have bought into science and an intellectual approach to knowledge. Their thinking is the same as their non-Jewish counterparts, and their lives are on Facebook , TikTok and associated frivolities.
Excellent article, and one I largely agree with. It's why I align myself with the yeshiva community instead of the modern orthodox community, despite finding the MO's answers more convincing.
I think the main issue is understanding what science is. I like Rav Sacks view that science just explains what things are while Torah explains what things truly mean. Seeing a contradiction between the two is silly because they are meant for two completely different things. One doesn't use science to explain the meaning of our existence just like one doesn't use Torah to observe the mechanical workings of the universe.
Nice post. I'd like to make two comments:
1. Although it is true that MO learning is sometimes too academic, the more Yeshivish can use some tweaking to become a bit more grounded. (I believe you acknowledge that.)
2. I once spoke to a student in Harvard Divinity School who was boasting he learns more about Judaism and Talmud study than I do in Yeshiva, since he is studying Josephus and the history of the surrounding cultures of the time while I just learn Gemara and Rambam. I replied that I also read Josephus ect., the difference is I read it in the bathroom and in bed, so what he's reading a whole day I read in the bathroom and what I learn all day he reads in the bathroom.
Almost all of the MO people that I have met, did not do a careful analysis of the sources and conclude that this is the correct path. They drifted into this type of observance. Poor knowledge of Torah or poor lifestyle choices, cause a person's observance to slacken. Eventually, enough falls away that we call them (or they call themselves) MO.
This is usually a de facto category, not one that is sought out.
“While we agree that it’s important to be nice, it is supposed to be from the fact that we are Hashem’s nation and being rude is a bad reflection of Hashem.[8] We are kind because to not be is a tremendous chilul Hashem“
I think you are missing the point of being nice. Is it okay for non-Jews to not be nice, because they are not from the chosen nation, and thereby not a reflection of Hashem?
"The problem with modoxy is: What of Hashem?? What of His Torah?? What about the things Hashem cares about?"
Mind clarifying what *makes* something 'modox' in your eyes? Can you offer any dividing lines between it and the Yeshivish world? I.e. You talk a lot about the problems with the former as compared to the latter, but it seems to me that you're skipping a few steps by not actually explaining what it *is* you're comparing to what.
E.G Is YuTorah Modox? http://www.yutorah.org/
Is Torah Musings? https://www.torahmusings.com/
OU Daf Yomi? https://outorah.org/series/159/
How about a book called "Musar For Moderns"? https://www.amazon.com/Musar-Moderns-Elyakim-Krumbain/dp/088125875X
Artscroll? Aish Hatorah? Gush? Etc.
(Note that I'm not necessarily disagreeing with anything you wrote. I'm just wondering if your categories are a little too neat/begging the question.)
To the extent that what you write is accurate (and now is not the time for paragraph by paragraph analysis) it is true only for upper league yeshivos. Which is a very small proportion of chareidim.
Once you get to middle and low tier yeshivos and ba'alei battim, including chassidim, what you write is totally non applicable and self righteous delusions of grandeur. Predominenr there is the garb and other chitzonious features. Everything revolves around money, no different to anybody else really. It's all about walking the walk and talking the talk and as you write 'being yeshivish'. Even learning halochoh is considered somewhat unyeshivish. How many ba'alei battim associated with the chareidi world know hilchos shabbos properly? Can deal with basic kitchen shailos themselves? Ask any chareidi rov what ridiculously simple shailos they get asked.
And the standard of learning, even in the top tier of yeshivos is, in the majority of cases, leaves a lot to be desired. When there are no tests, by definition there is no way of measuring standards. It's all about instant responses and shouting down a chavrusoh. And quoting by heart such as 'mefurash a rabbi akiva eiger' when the RAE doesn't exist or says something different to what is quoted. What percentage get a shach clear before moving on? Everything is often left q little vague. There is a reason why every other form of learning in the world has an assessment system.
I am not sure that the problem is that they are too into science. It is more an attitude of not so interested in the Torah's way if life.
Here is a comment I posted on another article here.
irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/what-is-modern-orthodoxy/comment/14323130#comment-14681967?utm_source=activity_item
Einstein is vastly overrated, and I say this even though he is family. My great-grandmother's maiden name was Einstein and she was his aunt.
Nice post!
This is reminding me of the book “One Above Seven Below” (or something like that.)