the gist of your post is spot on, but I disagree about some of the details. I think an outsider does have the ability to point out weaknesses that are harder to see from inside. There IMHO is no question that perpetuating that hishtadlus isn't actually what makes the bucks will deter living a rationalist life. Most of us have brains and can appreciate that if we aren't on the madreiga we must live in this scientific world, but religious communities are actually more lax in areas of hishtadlus. It's a weakness we can be proud of since it comes from a good palace, but it is still a weakness which isn't necessarily appropriate.
I guess what I'm saying is that I actually agree with NS on the things he points out - I thought that post you referenced (https://rationalistjudaism.blogspot.com/2021/05/foxholes-and-fatalists.html) was well put and well written for the most part, although his conclusion is anti-Torah (we embrace our ideology and hold of it wholeheartedly) but I don't disagree with him. I do agree that he doesn't get our position all the time and conflates things and contradicts himself as your main point was, but i still agree with a lot of what he points out. You seem to like none of it.
I very much agree that we do less hishtadlus and hold of it less. This is why even in our American yeshivish community most people will spend several years in kollel instead of immediately pursuing a career. I made this point in the previous post. However, this is very very different than saying we don't believe in the laws of physics or we think hishtadlus is just a sham. That is an extremely bad-faith distortion. We have a nuanced position.
I think it is fair game to criticize the *excesses* of the chareidi community in this department to the extent that they exist. But, #1, it is not an anti-Torah kofer's place to make such criticism. #2. I'm not sure if these are actually excesses, or it is a fine balancing act and sometimes בעוונותינו הרבים we get the balance wrong. I think our comparative lack of hishtadlus is not because we don't really believe in hishtadlus, but we have more important hishtadlus to undertake- hishtadlus in learning, in being mechanech our children, in building a Torah community. So sometimes it is happens that more mundane concerns will take a backseat to these pressing issues, and we have emunah that Hashem will help sort it out since we are trying to do His will. And if we are not זוכה, or sometimes we simply make bad decisions that are simply not warranted, that can lead to ר"ל bad consequences (which of course doesn't mean our general mehalech is wrong).
Clear. Thanks. Good points. The last point is especially true; I have it that we are in this world to serve HKBH, and if we do our job, He'll take care of us in the material realm. If we don't, we actually will need to take care of ourselves; He won't intervene and help people without this. (The idea of והלכתם עמי קרי and such is that if we ignore our true responsibilities of being מרבה כבוד שמים we will have to fend for ourselves, and the world of מקרה aint pretty - cold and Godless.)
"and if we do our job, He'll take care of us in the material realm"
Sooooo simplistic. Kindergartenish even. But I suppose you will just define 'care of us' in any way that suites - not sure how the tzaddikim that were killed throughout the generations by our enemies will qualify for 'take care of us in the material realm'.
Farkert, it's much more kindergartenishly simplistic to be a kofer. "oh, I saw a tzadik get killed, obviously God doesn't protect." Obviously you never learned Iyov or many chapters of Neviim.
True, and not dishonest. What I am concerned about is a selective criticism on his part. The country has unfortunately been plagued by a vicious cycle of cruel murders of good Jews, committed on open roads, and most recently, at a kosher restaurant frequented by West Bank residents and settlers near the town of Eli (which is in close proximity to many Arab villages). It should be clear to all rationalist thinkers thst living among Arabs who want to kill us is not the safest thing for a person to choose - yet, Dr. Natan, (whose sister and other relatives, not to mention many fellow anti-Haredi semi-religious Zionists, and other American converts to the cause, who now fantasize that they have become Israeli, and are bringing the Messiah and salvation closer with their settlements), never criticizes them openly for their irrational and dangerous beliefs, which are politically unpopular, cause hatred for all Israelis and Jews throughout the world, and bring about threats of even more violence, רחמנא ליצלן. That is a hypocrite! Critique only your foes.
Ah the kosher cephalopod! Yes, it is dishonest. As usual with his gaslighting posts, he writes fakery as if it were true, and then protests after the fact when numerous people don't get his degenerate sense of humor. The comments at the original Blogspot post are worthwhile reading.
Just another chareidi showing his true colours. And Dovid (TM) will tell you he's from the tribe that produced Reb Moshe and the Chazon Ish, so everything is fine.
Just curious what you had in mind this morning when you proclaimed: "אשרי יושבי ביתך עוד יהללוך סלה!" I, for one, had in mind that after all these years, along with all that Yisroel has been through, and along with all that we are going through, both a physical and spiritual standpoint, there are still some people in the world who stand and praise Hashem, or at least strive to. And I am proud to be a part of such a group! That is why everything is fine, and in today's crazy world, that is the only thing why everything is fine.
מום שבך אל תאמר... It's probably my yetzer hara, and none of your business. But since you disrespectfully asked: I need a small kosher outlet, and I feel like there is an opportunity to be מרבה כבוד שמים in a small way, because I feel like I have things to offer from my time spent when being forced to think about (and articulate) these things. I myself have learned and been נתחזק from many of the frum, ehrliche commenters and bloggers, and I hope I have been mechazek others a bit.
I don't believe in 'groups'. I believe in individuals. Your group learns more torah true, is medakdek in CERTAIN mitzvos true, but the extreme flaws within the group (already pointed out at length) mean that, as a group, I do not believe they are particularly 'yoshvei besecha', whatever they profess.
Some individuals do of course, many are not. Many simply walk the walk, talk the talk and, like all cults, believe they are perfect. Even as they happily daven after zeman tefillah, even after they commit benefit fraud, mortgage fraud, even after they partake in civil war between the two gurs (fully approved by the Gerrer Rebbe) or Zalmis v Aronis, even after they spend $$$$$$$$ on shtreimels and spodiks and enjoy luxery gourmet fress ups in the guise of mishnathons, even after they ignore all dictates of chazal to ensure their children can earn a descent parnosoh, even if they participate in blogs against 'da'as torah' etc etc
Yisroel is group. Those who strive to live by Yisroel's standard are the center of the group; the drifters are further ot. The יושבי ביתך are the ones I identify with and promote as I discusses clearly in my post.
Those gerrers that give a bloody nose to the wrong gerrers? Those who fail to hold leaders to account? Those that overlook child molesters and accociated abusers? Those who blog dispite da'as torah telling them to avoid the internet, b'dochek for parnossoh? Those whose learning is focussed on a few daf noshim nezikin whilst ignoring much of torah? Those who publish glossy magazines full of gashmiyos (this weeks Binoh had a four page spread on private swimming pools) that exceed the gashmiyous of most of the goyim, whilst simultaneously preaching perishus, only torah being important? Those who break covid rules and generate the most chillum hashem? Those who dance with convicted fraudsters on their release from prison? Those who tout Rubashkin, a common criminal as some sort of holy guy?
You really need to read before responding. In case it wasn't clear: "Yisroel" has standards. It's called the Torah. Reb Moshe Feinstein embodied those standards. Those who strive to embody them and those who live by them are the center of the group. All of the drifters you keep on talking about are further out. Those in the center are the יושבי ביתך which I identify with and promote and strive to be like.
(As far as internet is concerned, there is probably nothing as scary for a frum Jew than this terrible space, but unfortunately I need to have internet, and so I have strong filters and levels of shmira. Definitely b'dieved.)
the gist of your post is spot on, but I disagree about some of the details. I think an outsider does have the ability to point out weaknesses that are harder to see from inside. There IMHO is no question that perpetuating that hishtadlus isn't actually what makes the bucks will deter living a rationalist life. Most of us have brains and can appreciate that if we aren't on the madreiga we must live in this scientific world, but religious communities are actually more lax in areas of hishtadlus. It's a weakness we can be proud of since it comes from a good palace, but it is still a weakness which isn't necessarily appropriate.
I guess what I'm saying is that I actually agree with NS on the things he points out - I thought that post you referenced (https://rationalistjudaism.blogspot.com/2021/05/foxholes-and-fatalists.html) was well put and well written for the most part, although his conclusion is anti-Torah (we embrace our ideology and hold of it wholeheartedly) but I don't disagree with him. I do agree that he doesn't get our position all the time and conflates things and contradicts himself as your main point was, but i still agree with a lot of what he points out. You seem to like none of it.
I very much agree that we do less hishtadlus and hold of it less. This is why even in our American yeshivish community most people will spend several years in kollel instead of immediately pursuing a career. I made this point in the previous post. However, this is very very different than saying we don't believe in the laws of physics or we think hishtadlus is just a sham. That is an extremely bad-faith distortion. We have a nuanced position.
I think it is fair game to criticize the *excesses* of the chareidi community in this department to the extent that they exist. But, #1, it is not an anti-Torah kofer's place to make such criticism. #2. I'm not sure if these are actually excesses, or it is a fine balancing act and sometimes בעוונותינו הרבים we get the balance wrong. I think our comparative lack of hishtadlus is not because we don't really believe in hishtadlus, but we have more important hishtadlus to undertake- hishtadlus in learning, in being mechanech our children, in building a Torah community. So sometimes it is happens that more mundane concerns will take a backseat to these pressing issues, and we have emunah that Hashem will help sort it out since we are trying to do His will. And if we are not זוכה, or sometimes we simply make bad decisions that are simply not warranted, that can lead to ר"ל bad consequences (which of course doesn't mean our general mehalech is wrong).
Clear. Thanks. Good points. The last point is especially true; I have it that we are in this world to serve HKBH, and if we do our job, He'll take care of us in the material realm. If we don't, we actually will need to take care of ourselves; He won't intervene and help people without this. (The idea of והלכתם עמי קרי and such is that if we ignore our true responsibilities of being מרבה כבוד שמים we will have to fend for ourselves, and the world of מקרה aint pretty - cold and Godless.)
"and if we do our job, He'll take care of us in the material realm"
Sooooo simplistic. Kindergartenish even. But I suppose you will just define 'care of us' in any way that suites - not sure how the tzaddikim that were killed throughout the generations by our enemies will qualify for 'take care of us in the material realm'.
Farkert, it's much more kindergartenishly simplistic to be a kofer. "oh, I saw a tzadik get killed, obviously God doesn't protect." Obviously you never learned Iyov or many chapters of Neviim.
I often enjoy your posts, but this one didn't quite hit the "pleasant and kind" mark.
True, and not dishonest. What I am concerned about is a selective criticism on his part. The country has unfortunately been plagued by a vicious cycle of cruel murders of good Jews, committed on open roads, and most recently, at a kosher restaurant frequented by West Bank residents and settlers near the town of Eli (which is in close proximity to many Arab villages). It should be clear to all rationalist thinkers thst living among Arabs who want to kill us is not the safest thing for a person to choose - yet, Dr. Natan, (whose sister and other relatives, not to mention many fellow anti-Haredi semi-religious Zionists, and other American converts to the cause, who now fantasize that they have become Israeli, and are bringing the Messiah and salvation closer with their settlements), never criticizes them openly for their irrational and dangerous beliefs, which are politically unpopular, cause hatred for all Israelis and Jews throughout the world, and bring about threats of even more violence, רחמנא ליצלן. That is a hypocrite! Critique only your foes.
Ah the kosher cephalopod! Yes, it is dishonest. As usual with his gaslighting posts, he writes fakery as if it were true, and then protests after the fact when numerous people don't get his degenerate sense of humor. The comments at the original Blogspot post are worthwhile reading.
Just another chareidi showing his true colours. And Dovid (TM) will tell you he's from the tribe that produced Reb Moshe and the Chazon Ish, so everything is fine.
Just curious what you had in mind this morning when you proclaimed: "אשרי יושבי ביתך עוד יהללוך סלה!" I, for one, had in mind that after all these years, along with all that Yisroel has been through, and along with all that we are going through, both a physical and spiritual standpoint, there are still some people in the world who stand and praise Hashem, or at least strive to. And I am proud to be a part of such a group! That is why everything is fine, and in today's crazy world, that is the only thing why everything is fine.
How can you be part of that group when you participate in blogs, completely against 'da'as torah'? You are not here for parnossoh, are you?
מום שבך אל תאמר... It's probably my yetzer hara, and none of your business. But since you disrespectfully asked: I need a small kosher outlet, and I feel like there is an opportunity to be מרבה כבוד שמים in a small way, because I feel like I have things to offer from my time spent when being forced to think about (and articulate) these things. I myself have learned and been נתחזק from many of the frum, ehrliche commenters and bloggers, and I hope I have been mechazek others a bit.
I don't consider it a mum and I don't believe in da'as torah.
You on the other hand are demonstrating typical chareidi hypocrisy. As I wrote, when they need a kulloh, they always manage to find one.
See https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/breathtaking-dishonesty/comment/17823212
And human hypocrisy has nothing special with the chareidim.
I don't believe in 'groups'. I believe in individuals. Your group learns more torah true, is medakdek in CERTAIN mitzvos true, but the extreme flaws within the group (already pointed out at length) mean that, as a group, I do not believe they are particularly 'yoshvei besecha', whatever they profess.
Some individuals do of course, many are not. Many simply walk the walk, talk the talk and, like all cults, believe they are perfect. Even as they happily daven after zeman tefillah, even after they commit benefit fraud, mortgage fraud, even after they partake in civil war between the two gurs (fully approved by the Gerrer Rebbe) or Zalmis v Aronis, even after they spend $$$$$$$$ on shtreimels and spodiks and enjoy luxery gourmet fress ups in the guise of mishnathons, even after they ignore all dictates of chazal to ensure their children can earn a descent parnosoh, even if they participate in blogs against 'da'as torah' etc etc
Yisroel is group. Those who strive to live by Yisroel's standard are the center of the group; the drifters are further ot. The יושבי ביתך are the ones I identify with and promote as I discusses clearly in my post.
What are 'Yisroel's standard'?
Those gerrers that give a bloody nose to the wrong gerrers? Those who fail to hold leaders to account? Those that overlook child molesters and accociated abusers? Those who blog dispite da'as torah telling them to avoid the internet, b'dochek for parnossoh? Those whose learning is focussed on a few daf noshim nezikin whilst ignoring much of torah? Those who publish glossy magazines full of gashmiyos (this weeks Binoh had a four page spread on private swimming pools) that exceed the gashmiyous of most of the goyim, whilst simultaneously preaching perishus, only torah being important? Those who break covid rules and generate the most chillum hashem? Those who dance with convicted fraudsters on their release from prison? Those who tout Rubashkin, a common criminal as some sort of holy guy?
Yisroel standard my foot.
You really need to read before responding. In case it wasn't clear: "Yisroel" has standards. It's called the Torah. Reb Moshe Feinstein embodied those standards. Those who strive to embody them and those who live by them are the center of the group. All of the drifters you keep on talking about are further out. Those in the center are the יושבי ביתך which I identify with and promote and strive to be like.
(As far as internet is concerned, there is probably nothing as scary for a frum Jew than this terrible space, but unfortunately I need to have internet, and so I have strong filters and levels of shmira. Definitely b'dieved.)
"He is about as truthful as this economy-benefitting octopus served at one of his many lavish parties:"
This sentence, in an article headed "Breathtaking Dishonesty" is somewhat ironic. But the facts have never mattered to happy.