we really, really believe that it is the Torah that protects, and that those serving in the army are doing the 'front end' work, the hishtadlus. but similar to Yehoshua and Moshe, it is the avodas Hashem which wins the war, not the actual fighting. their successes are because of us. we believe that for real. for people like Yehoshua and Klal Yisroel who were free of sin, they could go to war and win by their merits. we would all be sent home because of our aveiros. like the famous 'joke' that just a few old rabbis with white and grey and canes would be left. so what we do is strengthen our avoda which is really what matters. of course its more comfortable to sit in the beis midrash, but that itself is a problem. we are supposed to feel the same responsibility as those on the field and work as hard as them and treat our learning at his time like life and death, without any laziness. but we are human and its really really hard, so we do more, at least much more than we've been doing before. and learning, as everyone knows, is super hard and 'boring' and we need to be ממית עצמינו just to chazer that gemara enough times before the geshmak comes. and we try to reach the feelings of pain that our brethren have out on the battlefield and of those involved in combat. that is our avoda at this time. and since we really believe this, we really need to knock into our heads that our learning is life and death (and we need to knock it in because even if we know it's true, it's hard to feel it)
as i write this, i'm guilty of not sitting in the bm and commenting on a blog (i happen to be waiting for my handyman to finish up but that doesn't excuse the many other times i sit here and don't pore over God's word) but i know many people who are better than me who are taking this as seriously as i am saying it and they are going to help us win the war. meanwhile, i am doing a lot more learning than i usually would between my responsibilities, though i'm still knocking these ideas into my head...
Hamas sees itself abandoned, so they started this surprise attack, utilizing the internal israeli divisions.
Hamas promised not to harm civilians (which for them includes only old people and children). All other israelis, since they are serving in the army, are military combatants and in hamas' view necessary targets, hence they shot these people on the rave party.
(There have been rumours on twitter about israeli women raped, but I haven't see any evidence. The story of 40 beheaded babies seems to be false, too and a picture of caged israeli children turned out to be an old picture of palestinian children).
Cuz Hamas goal with all these hostages is to get as many palestinians as possible out of prison. Last time israel released a 1000 palestinians for one captured soldier, imagine then now.
I think Hamas' strategy is wrong.
In Islamic Law, there is nothing legally wrong in killing any armed zionist in a state of war (whether woman or man, whether rabbi or layman and it doesn't have to be a soldier of the regular army tzahal, but even e.g. an armed settler like those in the west bank).
However, this indiscriminate killing and bombing is a war-crime, considering that many of the 1000 killed israelis are Arab Muslims (mostly the bedouins who live there in the south of israel) and who do not serve the army, rendering hamas' justification futile.
Non-Muslims are, in Islamic Law, in one of 4 possible categories. In three of these (dhimmi, mu'ahad, mustaman) it is prohibited to kill them, in one (harbi) only armed combatants can be killed (which could include women, old people and monks, with the condition that they are themselves armed and trying to kill you, but it is usually prohibited to kill them https://sunnah.com/muslim:1744b).
For references from classical Islamic jurists on war, see the book al-Badaai as-Sania from the jurist al-Kasani (12th century) https://shamela.ws/index.php/book/8183/1832 and the book al-Mughni from Ibn Qudama al-Maqdisi (13th century) https://shamela.ws/book/8463/4225 and the book Ahkam ahli dhimma by Ibn al-Qayyim (14th century).
Moving away from the strategy, the logic behind the attack itself is this: israel is built on zionism, the idea that jews must get an independent jewish state in zion i.e. palestine. But for such a state, one inevitably needs a majority jewish population which requires the ethnic cleansing or even genocide of the current majority population i.e. Arab muslims and Arab xtians. Some of them can stay (so called arab israelis) but most of them must go away.
Hence, for hamas, zionism is an irredemable ideology and its construct israel must be destroyed.
Emotionally I understand and even support this view. I have nothing against a jewish state in palestine per se, if there had been a realistic solution made by both sides without ethnic cleasing and personally I would even be ready to grant jews a specific place on the Temple mountain for davening.
But purely logically and legally speaking, I think that Hamas' attack was wrong.
I don't know that your solution will help anything. but the main q is: right now, what should be done? they really can't have a ceasefire because this will happen again. these are two real enemies where no one trusts each other to keep a ceasefire. it would be irresponsible to let tis go. but at the same time to destroy Gaza with plenty of civilians is also atrocious. would could and should be the best solution? and how much of the hatred is because we are jews and how much because of a political past. if Hamas leader are thanking Allah for this brutality as a win that is a bad sign. if so much money is going to terrorism, isn't that their own fault? am i missing a lot of details? i live in a state of never knowing which side is painting the picture the right way. it's just a huge mess.
I now to think he is. He didn't make such tweets in the years before, or at least I haven't seen them (I am not on twitter btw). Well, knowing his witt and sarcasm, I think Daniel would say: "I am not antisemitic, I don't hate Arabs, or Arameans or Mesopotamians."
What else is there to do, khoker? What would you do with the palestinians? How would you convince the palestinians in the west bank that the aggressive settlers are actually not aggressive and that they have no reason to throw molotov cocktails and rocks or feel threatened of expulsion form their homes?
For me, the biggest problem is how to convince palestinians that they are safe around jews. But again, there is no other choice, cuz separation and regionalism and ongoing war, gettoisation and apartheid cannot continue.
" Your plan pretty much entails giving up Zionism"
Well we have charedim, radical atheist post-zionist leftists and a huge american jewish diaspora that tries to convince the goy majority that it remains loyal to america and will choose america over israel any time when necessary.
You also had the gedolim who were critical of zionism in its essence, let alone the current secularist state structures that charedim reject.
Zionism was always on very shaky grounds, even among jews themselves.
From what I got from your comment is that you are pretty young (me too I am 20). We have to learn not to care too much what others say. If you are confident that your faith is correct, you are also confident that God will punish those who agitate against it. So whats the matter?
I have noticed that on yaron. He used to be extremely aggressive when attacking and cursing others, jews even (shapiro, prager, asher meza, rabbi sachs, rabbi goldberg, or rabbi dweck or rabbi slifkin or rabbi mirvis or.....is there anyone he didn't attack?).
Today in his newer videos I have seen, his tongue is still sharp but his demeanor much calmer.
I do listen to various journalists, analysts and talking heads, even when I know their islamophobic comments. If you see money in trashcan, take the money, leave the trash.
Muhammad Hijab, Umar Sulaiman and Hamza Yusuf are very balanced. Yusuf is one of my favourites in general (even though I have some strong disagreements with him on certain issues)
I have watched Mashals whole speech. In the introduction, he prays for the dead and the wellbeing of the palestinian sons, daughters and the people in general. Addressing the Muslim world (he especially refers to egyt, jordan, syria and lebanon) he did say that Muslims should go to jihad by marching to palestine, pointing to Smotrichs recent claim in paris that jordan must be occupied by Israel too. Hence Mashal argues "our struggle is your struggle too and Palestinians are defending the whole Arab and Muslim world." He also points to double standards: that ukraines defense from russian nationalist's appeal to historical claims on land is considered a just war, but not the palestinian one. He warns arab presidents, prime ministers and leaders that they are going to be held accountable on the Day of Judgement for their actions.
So no, he nowhere calls for violence against jews globally (not even once he uses the word jew, rather he says الصهاينة which simply means zionists).
Today or yesterday, there has been a protest in new york city by pro Israel activist saying literary: Kill all palestinians
But of course rashid doesn't mention that. Mashals speech is in a beautiful and eloquent classical Arabic (I mean by that, it is impossible that rashid did not understand and hence left out something cuz of dialect, different pronounciation or something like that, rather he deliberatley cherry picked).
If you do not want innocent civilians to get killed (inclusing the hostages themselves in gaza) then zionists should ask their government to stop with mass bombing, which has been going on for years and thousands of women and children have died. Some chief rabbis should gather and condemn that (not just rabbis from neturei karta), since many if not all the Hamas fighters have relatives killed by the zionists, which as you can imagine, fueled their hatred.
Maybe its a little bit humiliating, but I would advise you to wear some hat (but not a black fedora) to cover your kippa, so nobody will recognize your or attack you for being jewish. On the other side, crime has been escalating in usa anyway, so don't take this necessarily as an antisemitic act if it happens, though it doesnt make it ok or better
P.S. guys, I am not in gaza, I am not even arab, I am a Bosnian
Once again Shulman is doing most of the job for me but I'll say this. Given the current situation there is no difference between what Israeli's are doing and the British bombings of Hamburg and Berlin in WWII. That's why Jewish leaders are not condemning it either. They are a full threat to the country. And believe me, Is Israeli's could avoid it they would, just for public opinion.
As far as why people want to see Palestinians dead in general, I already told you, whether they understand the situation correctly or not, 85% of Gaza voted for either Hamas or Fatah, which in their eyes makes them no different than those who voted for the Nazi party. Additionally, it is their own experience from times they've seen civilian attacks.
I don't know where you live but no-one will stay away from Jewish neighborhoods just because they aren't wearing their regular hats. And Anti-Semitism was always around. It is completely foolish to think that it's now all about Zionism. Please explain why all colleges, representing almost no Muslims, are all rallying around Palestinians. Do they also share the belief that everyone at the music festival were threats? If not, it was regular murder, and they don't care.
I think we deviated from the initial point of my comment. I understand your reasoning. I am just saying: Hamas thinks the same way as you do: Israelis are living on land occupied a couple of decades ago, their population from 18-67 years old are serving the military and or are reservists and that people has just recently voted for a coalition with a guy who had baruch goldsteins photo on his wall and was convicted for supporting jewish terrorism (there just one reason why all colleges support the Palestinians).
Hamas thinks that they are doing the necessary thing, too (as the allied bombardment of dresden).
What I explained in my above post is, why their methods from a shari' legal view are flawed.
Antisemitism has always existed, but there are reasons why it exists: egyptians were afraid that jews are gonna colonize them and take away their country, as sefer shmot says 1:9-11
The persians hated the jews for their distinict law, as the book of Esther says.
Andalusian Muslims disliked (some even hated jews) cuz they supported the conquistadors (who ironically eventually expelled jews too) and for theological reasons too.
In austria, a series of antisemitic pogroms happened in the year 1338. Only the jews of vienna got spared. And why? Cuz the jews of that city lowered the interest rates for their debtors.
In 1242 the pope let the talmud burn. And why? Cuz a jewish convert to christianity familiar with the text and its original language told about the condescending and offensive descriptions of Jesus, Mary and non-jews in general, that were later censored or edited in later editions of the talmud.
Around the 1300 antisemitic attacks in europe broke out. Why? Cuz a jewish convert to christianity told church authorities that the phrase "varik" in the aleinu prayer has the same gematria as Jesus and that rabbis see this as a prophecy (e.g. rabbi Abraham ben Azrael back then in his commentary on aleinu). From that century onwards, german jews (though not the rest of the ashkenazi world) removed this passage from their siddurim completely.
Same goes for the zohar which curses Jesus a.s. and Muhammad saws and had to get censored, but all these things were revealed by converts and insiders.
None of this justifies the antisemitic attacks. Its just an observation that a similar pattern is repeated: jews expel and or kill the native arab xtian and arab Muslim population of palestine, and hence palestinians develop a deep hatred for israel and zionism which some short-sighted, uninformed and emotional arabs generalize onto all jews around the world.
That was the point of my inital comment: how hamas' thought process works, where it comes from and why it is wrong.
P.S. I am living in europe, totally different time zone. Hence it takes hours until I see or respond to a comment. From what I have seen, there are only americans here. Do we have anyone actually living in the Holy Land.
Yes, Hamas and Israel are threatened the same, regardless of who started it. When Israel is attacked this way their response if fully justified. The difference is, given the fact that many Arabs live in Israel and not a single Jew can live in Gaza with his head intact, that clearly shows that Hamas has Genocidal intentions, and Israel is only of self defense when civilians suffer the consequences. People like to claim this would not be the case if they would have their way. Here's the problem, no one is willing to risk it to try it out, even if Israel was ready to follow your plan. We were told many times if we give up this and that they'd be happy, nothing could have been further from the truth.
I don't mean to be facetious, but you did a nice job explaining the reasons for anti-Semitism, but it is slightly flawed. I'll first make the corrections and then say my opinion (and others) which fits with the current situation.
Egypt was no exception to the ancient world and I would not consider it anti-Semitism. In those days when all nations lived primitively, their biggest threat was a nation different than them. Every nation had its own culture and territory and could not live harmoniously with anyone. Otherwise one nation was to overpower the other. What did nations do when infiltrated by another? One of three things. Expulsion, Genocide, or slavery. The Egyptians went with the third, and other nations attempted the other two. This was also necessary in conquering the land of Israel, and without employing these methods holding on to Israel would be an endless fight for survival (which it ended up being anyway). Why were Egyptians punished then? See Ramban that it was for their unnecessary bad treatment .
When it came to Purim it was not out of fear of such a threat, as times changed by then and nations began to merge somewhat peacefully. Why were they hated? Yes, Anti-Semitism, founded by Amalek. But the reason? They had distinct laws. So what? (see below)
Not so good with early Muslim history so I'll leave that one alone.
That's an interesting observation about Vienna but it is more likely that the reason was it was not affected by the bubonic plague yet, as it was for other Jewish communities who were blamed for poisoning the wells. But you are right that money lending was a big cause. but there's a reason. Ever since Jews were in Europe they were not full citizens, so they couldn't own land and in most cases could not be merchants. What WERE they allowed to do? Money lending. They had to borrow at 10% interest rate and relend 10% just to cover that, plus 10% to make something of it. Since debts were sometimes cancelled, they needed to charge even more. Basically this was unavoidable and I don't know how Vienna had the Rate lower, unless Jews there had other professions. The point is that the money lending thing was a result of already treating Jews differently, because, Yes, different.
Jews were always hated for not accepting Christianity. It's ridiculous for them to be held up for making disparaging comments about why they don't believe in a religion constantly forced upon them. Of course they preach against Christianity and Islam, they have to enforce their religion. The reasons why things were censored was because Jews were forced to, it was no secret what Jews thought of other religions and they didn't censor it for PR.
Now, I believe anti-Semitism is very similar to racism. Why do people hate a race that did nothing to them? Because they are different. Different behavior, different standards, different looks and different needs different beliefs. People like their kind, and if they look at someone they don't see any commonality with, they develop animosity, especially when it gets in their way. That was anti-Semitism in Europe.
As far as the Arabs of today, I question that, and it is likely it is more similar to that of the Ancient Egyptians, and its a fight for territory and existence. That is not anti-Semitism, it is a struggle for survival. However, given all the infighting in the Mid-east over ethnicity, that also may be playing a role here.
Your average secular American or European Jew hater is anti Semitism. Jew's are different. Represent a different value system, especially if you are liberal. That's why they support the Palestinian side, not because of Hamas misunderstanding of the Quran, they don't care about that. If it is an equal struggle, why do they all take that side? Why are Nazi flags by such rallies?
As far as where people live, it seems most people here live in US, while commenters on Slifkins sight it's like half and half.
". What did nations do when infiltrated by another? One of three things. Expulsion, Genocide, or slavery. "
- I believe that "slavery" the way it is used now is a bit exaggerated for what happened back then, sometimes in the worst cases it was full slavery, much more often it was a subjugated territory that had to pay taxes.
"When it came to Purim it was not out of fear of such a threat, as times changed by then and nations began to merge somewhat peacefully. Why were they hated? Yes, Anti-Semitism, founded by Amalek. But the reason? They had distinct laws. So what? (see below)"
-Right, the Persian empire was pretty religiously tolerant by ancient standards, the fact that the Jews simply had different laws wouldn't be an excuse to kill them.
- Yeah, I know the backstory how ashkenazim got into money lending. I don't dispute that (interestingly sephardim and mizrachim not so much, might be because of their life under Islamic rule which bans interest)
- Yeah, I understand why jewish sources are not sympathethic to xtainity. The opposite is true too (see how matthews gospel presents jews and how paul talks about them). God describes in the 7th surah of the Qur'an that some israelites who constantly violated the commandments were turned into monkeys and pigs.
- Yeah, the israelis and arabs war is an war of survival. A reason why jews might not be living under palestinian authority is cuz they do not want to get bombed to death by the israeli army.
- The pogrom of 1338 wasn't cuz of accusations regarding the bubonic plague, since it appeared only abozt 10 years later in austria and then some time later over the years jews got accused. Ironiclly, it was the pope who publicly defended the jews from these accusations.
-Colleges are a hotbed of leftism and leftism and nazism are diametrically opposed (please don't tell me you are one of those "nazis were socialists" americans). I haven't seen any nazi flags, if so, that is a huge overgeneralization. Leftists present themselves as the protectors of minorities. How much of that is true is debatable, but this is their true motivation for supporting palestinian resistance. Again, people do not believe that these stories of hamas atrocities are true anyway. Their support for palestinian resistance does not mean endorsement of hamas as a political force (you have Muslims critical of hamas but endorsing the resistance), much less of any war crimes, cuz the leftists see these stories as fabricated or at least highly exaggerated zionist propaganda. I am just explaining their thinking, I don't want to start a debate which of these reports are true. Just as I simply explained the thinking of antisemites throughout history, I didn't mean to justify it.
Right and left stem from classical liberalism, the belief that freedom, as long as you don't harm anyone, is the highest value. But what constitues freedom and what harm and how we measure or determine harm is the beef. After the death of xtianity and appearence of secularism in the 18th century, western europeans tried to make replacements for God. Instead God, take liberty (liberalism), or nation (nationalism, its not a coincidence that zionism appeared in western europe), or race (nazism) or class (communism) or sex (feminism and red-pill).
Right believes that freedom can be achieved through a strong nation state and conserving hierarchies and social orders. Hence we call them conservatives. Jews are a small minority which is disproportinately overrepresented in leftist media, leftist causes and movements. Even the right-wing jews are dubious, since it is not clear whether their nationalist loyalty goes to their birth country or their nation state (israel), or whether they are playing a double game. Hence the antisemitism from the right.
Left believes in tearing down hierarchies in order to liberate and help minorities that the left considers to be oppressed. The left constantly discovers new oppressed minorities (the slippery slope went from sodomy to transsexuals) and it is getting more radical in how to instill acceptance of such minorities (e.g. teaching toddlers about gay sex). Since jews were an oppressed minority, many jews turned to the left, just as american Muslims. Since zionism is an ideology necessarly built upon ethnic cleansing and the maintainment of a ethnic majority to preserve a nation state, leftists oppose israel.
This is where the paradoxes kick in: right wingers are jealous of israels nationalism and its far right. Hence jew haters like richard spencer or nick fuentes had some nice things to say about israels immigration policy, despite hating jews themselvrs. Leftists support palestine for good reasons, but they do not realize that the society and moral beliefs of the Palestinians do not align with leftism at all.
Have patience, I used sometimes to comment on Muslim Skeptic, too and it lasts until a comment actually appears. Besides, the maximum amount of words is limited for one comment, while an actual meaningful response from you would require something bigger and longer (an article or something).
What do you mean by rambam actually agreed? Rambam also believed in the inherent superiority of jewish neshamot and that they are a part of the divine?
I would advise you to firstly learn the arabic script which can be mastered in a week or less than that if you put effort. Then, you should look into the basics of arab grammar (how sentences are formed, verbs conjugated in different time forms, which is not actually difficult, especially if you already know hebrew). After learning basic everyday conversational formulae and sentences as case studies, you should go to arab media, articles and reports and translate them, word by word (google translator has gotten good and accurate in that, but you cannot translate arab poetry with that). Take for example al-jazeera arabic and egyptian news websites. For example: https://aawsat.com/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B1%D8%A3%D9%8A/4479821-%D9%86%D9%82%D8%B4-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AD%D9%82%D9%88%D9%86-%D9%81%D9%8A-%D8%AD%D9%85%D9%89
When doing that everyday, you will learn more and more and you will eventually at least understand the language if not speak it. Thats how I learned english a couple of years ago btw: grammar in school/course, but the expressions and words and actual talking from the internet.
However, you should know that I am talking about standard Arabic (fusha) which is the classical and formal way of speaking arabic in politics, media, religious lectures, scientific conversations, literature and papers.
Regarding everyday conversations, every arab country and even region has its dialects, the most widely understood dialect is egyptian because of the numerous movies and tv novellas from there.
But ignore the dialects, you are living in US anyway, you do not live in the arab world and after learning the standard Arabic you can learn whatever dialect you want.
Today I have started learning hebrew and the similarity of the words to arabic have helped me. However, the lack of vowels has made reading difficult. I had the same issue with Arabic. I never understood why Semites leave vowels out.
Do you have something quick and effective for hebrew? Cuz besides it, I would like to learn malaysian (which is very easy), cuz I am planning like many Muslims to leave europe and settle in malaysia in foreseeable future. Even though arabic and english are enough there, too, it can't hurt knowing their native language as well and I wonder whether hebrew could pose a problem or obstacle.
Until you are able to understand the sources on your own, I advise you to follow palestinian and israeli channels, among israelis follow leftists and right wingers and centrists, so you know all the sides. Even when you stronlgy disagree with a side, it can't hurt to understand your opponent better.
Totally curious question, how many times has Israel started up? Meaning not retaliated but instigated?
Is it as simple as you make it that Israel a should stop bombing right now? What would honestly happen if they did? Hamas would stop what they're doing? There are two babies fighting and one can't stop without the other around simultaneously and they both won't so automatically there will be too many casualties and the stronger will win. Is there any other way? Is there a way for netanyahu not to fight back without other sorts of repercussions? I'm not saying what he's doing and that the whole occupation is okay, not facts are it's there and facts are there's a mess, and facts are Hamas did something really bad. So what else is there to do?
What is else to do? Well, I am not yoav gallant and not the supreme court so its not my task to figure that out.
If I were an Israeli general, I would bomb those objects essential for Hamas' rule and administration. Instead, tzahal has also bombed the way between rafah and egypt, preventing palestinian civilians from fleeing through that route, which is the main route. It has also bombed mosques and media centers (or whatever the term for that is) and apartment buildings. What do you think where all the thousands of deads (among them hundreds of actually dead babies) come from? Its a dense region: don't trust the "human shileds" propaganda from tzahal.
If you want to argue then, that these are just mistakes, then........"ok", I guess...
But then shouldn't we legally prosecute the responsible officers for war crimes, or at least criminal negligence?
If we insist as in your words that "there is no other way", which effectively means that the dead are collateral damage, then you will keep doing what you are doing, but you should know that Hamas could make the same argument, too
"Yeah, maybe some of our soldiers will not be able to control themselves and will do war crimes and maybe our rockets kill some innocent civilians too and even some arabs....But hey, what else is there to do?"
Btw guys, you do not have to discuss these things with me if you are tired. I am from the balkans, we have the stomach and nerves for stuff like this.
Of course Hamas could make the same argument. But first of all going by hand and murdering babies and civilians is still different than mistakes. And same with bombing civilian targets specifically through rockets, people who are not the IDF. And if course of they would attack the IDF that would be their death, they wouldn't get anywhere so they do their thing which comes from a principle more than anything else which means Israel simply can't stand idle. And then they take hostages and run back to Gaza, what do you expect Israel to do?
It's nice in theory to propose peace, we all want that, but in practice I just don't see how.
And maybe Israel are the oppressors in general, hard to say, but these attacks on civilians can't be taken in stride because they will keep going as per the Hamas mission statement.
My proposal would be for Hamas to lay low and slowly build Israeli trust and after a while live side by side happily. Will Israel mind if there weren't any acts of terror? It seems that the only reason why Israel can't handle any two state solution is because of things that happen from Gaza which is the closest thing to living side by side as we could, and it isn't going well. Because Hamas has an agenda to not let Israel be because they're stuck in the past. If we would all be out to get our oppressors we be in an infinite regress of fighting. We have to move on and not have doctrines of hate. The fact that Hamas has a clear doctrine of vengeance means that we cannot coexist peacefully. So we have to fight because of we stop fighting they keep terrorizing.
It's asking a lot, assuming Israel did the wrong thing by being Israel, and now telling the oppressed to back off, but at the end of the day, as things stand that is the only way anyone can be peaceful. Which is letting the oppressors win in a way. But that is the only way that their own civilians can stay safe at this point. Because now it's Israeli civilians or Palestinian civilians and Israel is stronger...
Well, I expect it to be careful and precise with its bombardments for the sake of the lives of their kidnapped soldiers and reservists if not the Palestinian ones.
As per Hamas' account, a detained israeli soldier has been killed by israeli bombardment. That was a day ago or two, maybe there are more such victims. You would certainly think differently about israels approach, if that killed one was your relative or friend or if you were a Palestinian.
But I agree that Hamas and Israel should make peace, built trust, accept the situation as it is and as I proposed, west bank and gaza should become israeli territory and the local palestinians israeli citizens. I am not saying this will or can or should happen overnight, but its a process.
As I explained in my comment, israel will not be able to exist in near future. This is not antisemitism, not even anti-zionism, just reality. Its not surprising either. Historically speaking, its not the first time that you guys got a state of your own and that collapses after decades from a mixture of foreign challenges and especially internal irreconcilable differences.
I am advising Palestinians not to shed their own blood nor the blood of others by beating a dead horse, but to look for a way how to preserve their existence on that territory. And I think this proposal is the most realistic one.
wow. that is powerful and should inspire us all to teshuva!
my thoughts right before i found this: https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-shmini-atzeret-war/comment/41602007 -
we really, really believe that it is the Torah that protects, and that those serving in the army are doing the 'front end' work, the hishtadlus. but similar to Yehoshua and Moshe, it is the avodas Hashem which wins the war, not the actual fighting. their successes are because of us. we believe that for real. for people like Yehoshua and Klal Yisroel who were free of sin, they could go to war and win by their merits. we would all be sent home because of our aveiros. like the famous 'joke' that just a few old rabbis with white and grey and canes would be left. so what we do is strengthen our avoda which is really what matters. of course its more comfortable to sit in the beis midrash, but that itself is a problem. we are supposed to feel the same responsibility as those on the field and work as hard as them and treat our learning at his time like life and death, without any laziness. but we are human and its really really hard, so we do more, at least much more than we've been doing before. and learning, as everyone knows, is super hard and 'boring' and we need to be ממית עצמינו just to chazer that gemara enough times before the geshmak comes. and we try to reach the feelings of pain that our brethren have out on the battlefield and of those involved in combat. that is our avoda at this time. and since we really believe this, we really need to knock into our heads that our learning is life and death (and we need to knock it in because even if we know it's true, it's hard to feel it)
as i write this, i'm guilty of not sitting in the bm and commenting on a blog (i happen to be waiting for my handyman to finish up but that doesn't excuse the many other times i sit here and don't pore over God's word) but i know many people who are better than me who are taking this as seriously as i am saying it and they are going to help us win the war. meanwhile, i am doing a lot more learning than i usually would between my responsibilities, though i'm still knocking these ideas into my head...
Hello, here a Muslims view on the ongoing war:
In the last years, more and more arab countries have normalized their relationship with israel, fearing the shia iranian terrorism and threat. If you want more context on that, here: https://open.substack.com/pub/irrationalistmodoxism/p/do-we-misrepresent-our-opponents?r=2rw0fd&utm_campaign=comment-list-share-cta&utm_medium=web&comments=true&commentId=39871087
Hamas sees itself abandoned, so they started this surprise attack, utilizing the internal israeli divisions.
Hamas promised not to harm civilians (which for them includes only old people and children). All other israelis, since they are serving in the army, are military combatants and in hamas' view necessary targets, hence they shot these people on the rave party.
(There have been rumours on twitter about israeli women raped, but I haven't see any evidence. The story of 40 beheaded babies seems to be false, too and a picture of caged israeli children turned out to be an old picture of palestinian children).
Cuz Hamas goal with all these hostages is to get as many palestinians as possible out of prison. Last time israel released a 1000 palestinians for one captured soldier, imagine then now.
I think Hamas' strategy is wrong.
In Islamic Law, there is nothing legally wrong in killing any armed zionist in a state of war (whether woman or man, whether rabbi or layman and it doesn't have to be a soldier of the regular army tzahal, but even e.g. an armed settler like those in the west bank).
However, this indiscriminate killing and bombing is a war-crime, considering that many of the 1000 killed israelis are Arab Muslims (mostly the bedouins who live there in the south of israel) and who do not serve the army, rendering hamas' justification futile.
Non-Muslims are, in Islamic Law, in one of 4 possible categories. In three of these (dhimmi, mu'ahad, mustaman) it is prohibited to kill them, in one (harbi) only armed combatants can be killed (which could include women, old people and monks, with the condition that they are themselves armed and trying to kill you, but it is usually prohibited to kill them https://sunnah.com/muslim:1744b).
For references from classical Islamic jurists on war, see the book al-Badaai as-Sania from the jurist al-Kasani (12th century) https://shamela.ws/index.php/book/8183/1832 and the book al-Mughni from Ibn Qudama al-Maqdisi (13th century) https://shamela.ws/book/8463/4225 and the book Ahkam ahli dhimma by Ibn al-Qayyim (14th century).
Except violating Islamic Law, I see a second problem with hamas' attack. The zionist retaliation will be much more brutal. Hamas violated this instruction by the Prophet saws: https://www.abuaminaelias.com/dailyhadithonline/2019/02/05/believers-not-seek-hardship/
Moving away from the strategy, the logic behind the attack itself is this: israel is built on zionism, the idea that jews must get an independent jewish state in zion i.e. palestine. But for such a state, one inevitably needs a majority jewish population which requires the ethnic cleansing or even genocide of the current majority population i.e. Arab muslims and Arab xtians. Some of them can stay (so called arab israelis) but most of them must go away.
Hence, for hamas, zionism is an irredemable ideology and its construct israel must be destroyed.
Emotionally I understand and even support this view. I have nothing against a jewish state in palestine per se, if there had been a realistic solution made by both sides without ethnic cleasing and personally I would even be ready to grant jews a specific place on the Temple mountain for davening.
But purely logically and legally speaking, I think that Hamas' attack was wrong.
Muslims know this too. Years ago, even before the saudi normalization with israel, the Saudi Grand Mufti Abdulaziz Aal Shaykh condemend Hamas: https://www.aljazeera.net/news/2017/11/15/%D9%81%D8%AA%D9%88%D9%89-%D8%B9%D8%A8%D8%AF-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B9%D8%B2%D9%8A%D8%B2-%D8%A2%D9%84-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B4%D9%8A%D8%AE-%D8%AA%D8%AB%D9%8A%D8%B1-%D8%B1%D9%81%D8%B6
But the argument is always, that Palestinians have no other choice but to fight. I disagree with that assumption.
If you want to know what palestinians in my view should do instead, see: https://open.substack.com/pub/irrationalistmodoxism/p/do-we-misrepresent-our-opponents?r=2rw0fd&utm_campaign=comment-list-share-cta&utm_medium=web&comments=true&commentId=39986986
I don't know that your solution will help anything. but the main q is: right now, what should be done? they really can't have a ceasefire because this will happen again. these are two real enemies where no one trusts each other to keep a ceasefire. it would be irresponsible to let tis go. but at the same time to destroy Gaza with plenty of civilians is also atrocious. would could and should be the best solution? and how much of the hatred is because we are jews and how much because of a political past. if Hamas leader are thanking Allah for this brutality as a win that is a bad sign. if so much money is going to terrorism, isn't that their own fault? am i missing a lot of details? i live in a state of never knowing which side is painting the picture the right way. it's just a huge mess.
hey how can i email you?
happygoluckypersonage@gmail.com
Lol sorry I meant Rafael, I know yours already
are you in Gaza now? where are you?
got it. i misread your comment below
I now to think he is. He didn't make such tweets in the years before, or at least I haven't seen them (I am not on twitter btw). Well, knowing his witt and sarcasm, I think Daniel would say: "I am not antisemitic, I don't hate Arabs, or Arameans or Mesopotamians."
What else is there to do, khoker? What would you do with the palestinians? How would you convince the palestinians in the west bank that the aggressive settlers are actually not aggressive and that they have no reason to throw molotov cocktails and rocks or feel threatened of expulsion form their homes?
For me, the biggest problem is how to convince palestinians that they are safe around jews. But again, there is no other choice, cuz separation and regionalism and ongoing war, gettoisation and apartheid cannot continue.
" Your plan pretty much entails giving up Zionism"
Well we have charedim, radical atheist post-zionist leftists and a huge american jewish diaspora that tries to convince the goy majority that it remains loyal to america and will choose america over israel any time when necessary.
You also had the gedolim who were critical of zionism in its essence, let alone the current secularist state structures that charedim reject.
Zionism was always on very shaky grounds, even among jews themselves.
From what I got from your comment is that you are pretty young (me too I am 20). We have to learn not to care too much what others say. If you are confident that your faith is correct, you are also confident that God will punish those who agitate against it. So whats the matter?
I have noticed that on yaron. He used to be extremely aggressive when attacking and cursing others, jews even (shapiro, prager, asher meza, rabbi sachs, rabbi goldberg, or rabbi dweck or rabbi slifkin or rabbi mirvis or.....is there anyone he didn't attack?).
Today in his newer videos I have seen, his tongue is still sharp but his demeanor much calmer.
I do listen to various journalists, analysts and talking heads, even when I know their islamophobic comments. If you see money in trashcan, take the money, leave the trash.
Muhammad Hijab, Umar Sulaiman and Hamza Yusuf are very balanced. Yusuf is one of my favourites in general (even though I have some strong disagreements with him on certain issues)
For now, the israeli army itself does not affirm the claim: https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/no-confirmation-about-allegations-hamas-beheaded-babies-israeli-army-15344898
I have watched Mashals whole speech. In the introduction, he prays for the dead and the wellbeing of the palestinian sons, daughters and the people in general. Addressing the Muslim world (he especially refers to egyt, jordan, syria and lebanon) he did say that Muslims should go to jihad by marching to palestine, pointing to Smotrichs recent claim in paris that jordan must be occupied by Israel too. Hence Mashal argues "our struggle is your struggle too and Palestinians are defending the whole Arab and Muslim world." He also points to double standards: that ukraines defense from russian nationalist's appeal to historical claims on land is considered a just war, but not the palestinian one. He warns arab presidents, prime ministers and leaders that they are going to be held accountable on the Day of Judgement for their actions.
So no, he nowhere calls for violence against jews globally (not even once he uses the word jew, rather he says الصهاينة which simply means zionists).
Today or yesterday, there has been a protest in new york city by pro Israel activist saying literary: Kill all palestinians
But of course rashid doesn't mention that. Mashals speech is in a beautiful and eloquent classical Arabic (I mean by that, it is impossible that rashid did not understand and hence left out something cuz of dialect, different pronounciation or something like that, rather he deliberatley cherry picked).
If you do not want innocent civilians to get killed (inclusing the hostages themselves in gaza) then zionists should ask their government to stop with mass bombing, which has been going on for years and thousands of women and children have died. Some chief rabbis should gather and condemn that (not just rabbis from neturei karta), since many if not all the Hamas fighters have relatives killed by the zionists, which as you can imagine, fueled their hatred.
Maybe its a little bit humiliating, but I would advise you to wear some hat (but not a black fedora) to cover your kippa, so nobody will recognize your or attack you for being jewish. On the other side, crime has been escalating in usa anyway, so don't take this necessarily as an antisemitic act if it happens, though it doesnt make it ok or better
P.S. guys, I am not in gaza, I am not even arab, I am a Bosnian
Once again Shulman is doing most of the job for me but I'll say this. Given the current situation there is no difference between what Israeli's are doing and the British bombings of Hamburg and Berlin in WWII. That's why Jewish leaders are not condemning it either. They are a full threat to the country. And believe me, Is Israeli's could avoid it they would, just for public opinion.
As far as why people want to see Palestinians dead in general, I already told you, whether they understand the situation correctly or not, 85% of Gaza voted for either Hamas or Fatah, which in their eyes makes them no different than those who voted for the Nazi party. Additionally, it is their own experience from times they've seen civilian attacks.
I don't know where you live but no-one will stay away from Jewish neighborhoods just because they aren't wearing their regular hats. And Anti-Semitism was always around. It is completely foolish to think that it's now all about Zionism. Please explain why all colleges, representing almost no Muslims, are all rallying around Palestinians. Do they also share the belief that everyone at the music festival were threats? If not, it was regular murder, and they don't care.
I think we deviated from the initial point of my comment. I understand your reasoning. I am just saying: Hamas thinks the same way as you do: Israelis are living on land occupied a couple of decades ago, their population from 18-67 years old are serving the military and or are reservists and that people has just recently voted for a coalition with a guy who had baruch goldsteins photo on his wall and was convicted for supporting jewish terrorism (there just one reason why all colleges support the Palestinians).
Hamas thinks that they are doing the necessary thing, too (as the allied bombardment of dresden).
What I explained in my above post is, why their methods from a shari' legal view are flawed.
Antisemitism has always existed, but there are reasons why it exists: egyptians were afraid that jews are gonna colonize them and take away their country, as sefer shmot says 1:9-11
The persians hated the jews for their distinict law, as the book of Esther says.
Andalusian Muslims disliked (some even hated jews) cuz they supported the conquistadors (who ironically eventually expelled jews too) and for theological reasons too.
In austria, a series of antisemitic pogroms happened in the year 1338. Only the jews of vienna got spared. And why? Cuz the jews of that city lowered the interest rates for their debtors.
In 1242 the pope let the talmud burn. And why? Cuz a jewish convert to christianity familiar with the text and its original language told about the condescending and offensive descriptions of Jesus, Mary and non-jews in general, that were later censored or edited in later editions of the talmud.
Around the 1300 antisemitic attacks in europe broke out. Why? Cuz a jewish convert to christianity told church authorities that the phrase "varik" in the aleinu prayer has the same gematria as Jesus and that rabbis see this as a prophecy (e.g. rabbi Abraham ben Azrael back then in his commentary on aleinu). From that century onwards, german jews (though not the rest of the ashkenazi world) removed this passage from their siddurim completely.
Same goes for the zohar which curses Jesus a.s. and Muhammad saws and had to get censored, but all these things were revealed by converts and insiders.
None of this justifies the antisemitic attacks. Its just an observation that a similar pattern is repeated: jews expel and or kill the native arab xtian and arab Muslim population of palestine, and hence palestinians develop a deep hatred for israel and zionism which some short-sighted, uninformed and emotional arabs generalize onto all jews around the world.
That was the point of my inital comment: how hamas' thought process works, where it comes from and why it is wrong.
P.S. I am living in europe, totally different time zone. Hence it takes hours until I see or respond to a comment. From what I have seen, there are only americans here. Do we have anyone actually living in the Holy Land.
Ok, a long response gets a long response:)
Yes, Hamas and Israel are threatened the same, regardless of who started it. When Israel is attacked this way their response if fully justified. The difference is, given the fact that many Arabs live in Israel and not a single Jew can live in Gaza with his head intact, that clearly shows that Hamas has Genocidal intentions, and Israel is only of self defense when civilians suffer the consequences. People like to claim this would not be the case if they would have their way. Here's the problem, no one is willing to risk it to try it out, even if Israel was ready to follow your plan. We were told many times if we give up this and that they'd be happy, nothing could have been further from the truth.
I don't mean to be facetious, but you did a nice job explaining the reasons for anti-Semitism, but it is slightly flawed. I'll first make the corrections and then say my opinion (and others) which fits with the current situation.
Egypt was no exception to the ancient world and I would not consider it anti-Semitism. In those days when all nations lived primitively, their biggest threat was a nation different than them. Every nation had its own culture and territory and could not live harmoniously with anyone. Otherwise one nation was to overpower the other. What did nations do when infiltrated by another? One of three things. Expulsion, Genocide, or slavery. The Egyptians went with the third, and other nations attempted the other two. This was also necessary in conquering the land of Israel, and without employing these methods holding on to Israel would be an endless fight for survival (which it ended up being anyway). Why were Egyptians punished then? See Ramban that it was for their unnecessary bad treatment .
When it came to Purim it was not out of fear of such a threat, as times changed by then and nations began to merge somewhat peacefully. Why were they hated? Yes, Anti-Semitism, founded by Amalek. But the reason? They had distinct laws. So what? (see below)
Not so good with early Muslim history so I'll leave that one alone.
That's an interesting observation about Vienna but it is more likely that the reason was it was not affected by the bubonic plague yet, as it was for other Jewish communities who were blamed for poisoning the wells. But you are right that money lending was a big cause. but there's a reason. Ever since Jews were in Europe they were not full citizens, so they couldn't own land and in most cases could not be merchants. What WERE they allowed to do? Money lending. They had to borrow at 10% interest rate and relend 10% just to cover that, plus 10% to make something of it. Since debts were sometimes cancelled, they needed to charge even more. Basically this was unavoidable and I don't know how Vienna had the Rate lower, unless Jews there had other professions. The point is that the money lending thing was a result of already treating Jews differently, because, Yes, different.
Jews were always hated for not accepting Christianity. It's ridiculous for them to be held up for making disparaging comments about why they don't believe in a religion constantly forced upon them. Of course they preach against Christianity and Islam, they have to enforce their religion. The reasons why things were censored was because Jews were forced to, it was no secret what Jews thought of other religions and they didn't censor it for PR.
Now, I believe anti-Semitism is very similar to racism. Why do people hate a race that did nothing to them? Because they are different. Different behavior, different standards, different looks and different needs different beliefs. People like their kind, and if they look at someone they don't see any commonality with, they develop animosity, especially when it gets in their way. That was anti-Semitism in Europe.
As far as the Arabs of today, I question that, and it is likely it is more similar to that of the Ancient Egyptians, and its a fight for territory and existence. That is not anti-Semitism, it is a struggle for survival. However, given all the infighting in the Mid-east over ethnicity, that also may be playing a role here.
Your average secular American or European Jew hater is anti Semitism. Jew's are different. Represent a different value system, especially if you are liberal. That's why they support the Palestinian side, not because of Hamas misunderstanding of the Quran, they don't care about that. If it is an equal struggle, why do they all take that side? Why are Nazi flags by such rallies?
As far as where people live, it seems most people here live in US, while commenters on Slifkins sight it's like half and half.
". What did nations do when infiltrated by another? One of three things. Expulsion, Genocide, or slavery. "
- I believe that "slavery" the way it is used now is a bit exaggerated for what happened back then, sometimes in the worst cases it was full slavery, much more often it was a subjugated territory that had to pay taxes.
"When it came to Purim it was not out of fear of such a threat, as times changed by then and nations began to merge somewhat peacefully. Why were they hated? Yes, Anti-Semitism, founded by Amalek. But the reason? They had distinct laws. So what? (see below)"
-Right, the Persian empire was pretty religiously tolerant by ancient standards, the fact that the Jews simply had different laws wouldn't be an excuse to kill them.
- Yeah, I know the backstory how ashkenazim got into money lending. I don't dispute that (interestingly sephardim and mizrachim not so much, might be because of their life under Islamic rule which bans interest)
- Yeah, I understand why jewish sources are not sympathethic to xtainity. The opposite is true too (see how matthews gospel presents jews and how paul talks about them). God describes in the 7th surah of the Qur'an that some israelites who constantly violated the commandments were turned into monkeys and pigs.
- Yeah, the israelis and arabs war is an war of survival. A reason why jews might not be living under palestinian authority is cuz they do not want to get bombed to death by the israeli army.
- The pogrom of 1338 wasn't cuz of accusations regarding the bubonic plague, since it appeared only abozt 10 years later in austria and then some time later over the years jews got accused. Ironiclly, it was the pope who publicly defended the jews from these accusations.
-Colleges are a hotbed of leftism and leftism and nazism are diametrically opposed (please don't tell me you are one of those "nazis were socialists" americans). I haven't seen any nazi flags, if so, that is a huge overgeneralization. Leftists present themselves as the protectors of minorities. How much of that is true is debatable, but this is their true motivation for supporting palestinian resistance. Again, people do not believe that these stories of hamas atrocities are true anyway. Their support for palestinian resistance does not mean endorsement of hamas as a political force (you have Muslims critical of hamas but endorsing the resistance), much less of any war crimes, cuz the leftists see these stories as fabricated or at least highly exaggerated zionist propaganda. I am just explaining their thinking, I don't want to start a debate which of these reports are true. Just as I simply explained the thinking of antisemites throughout history, I didn't mean to justify it.
Right and left stem from classical liberalism, the belief that freedom, as long as you don't harm anyone, is the highest value. But what constitues freedom and what harm and how we measure or determine harm is the beef. After the death of xtianity and appearence of secularism in the 18th century, western europeans tried to make replacements for God. Instead God, take liberty (liberalism), or nation (nationalism, its not a coincidence that zionism appeared in western europe), or race (nazism) or class (communism) or sex (feminism and red-pill).
Right believes that freedom can be achieved through a strong nation state and conserving hierarchies and social orders. Hence we call them conservatives. Jews are a small minority which is disproportinately overrepresented in leftist media, leftist causes and movements. Even the right-wing jews are dubious, since it is not clear whether their nationalist loyalty goes to their birth country or their nation state (israel), or whether they are playing a double game. Hence the antisemitism from the right.
Left believes in tearing down hierarchies in order to liberate and help minorities that the left considers to be oppressed. The left constantly discovers new oppressed minorities (the slippery slope went from sodomy to transsexuals) and it is getting more radical in how to instill acceptance of such minorities (e.g. teaching toddlers about gay sex). Since jews were an oppressed minority, many jews turned to the left, just as american Muslims. Since zionism is an ideology necessarly built upon ethnic cleansing and the maintainment of a ethnic majority to preserve a nation state, leftists oppose israel.
This is where the paradoxes kick in: right wingers are jealous of israels nationalism and its far right. Hence jew haters like richard spencer or nick fuentes had some nice things to say about israels immigration policy, despite hating jews themselvrs. Leftists support palestine for good reasons, but they do not realize that the society and moral beliefs of the Palestinians do not align with leftism at all.
Have patience, I used sometimes to comment on Muslim Skeptic, too and it lasts until a comment actually appears. Besides, the maximum amount of words is limited for one comment, while an actual meaningful response from you would require something bigger and longer (an article or something).
What do you mean by rambam actually agreed? Rambam also believed in the inherent superiority of jewish neshamot and that they are a part of the divine?
I would advise you to firstly learn the arabic script which can be mastered in a week or less than that if you put effort. Then, you should look into the basics of arab grammar (how sentences are formed, verbs conjugated in different time forms, which is not actually difficult, especially if you already know hebrew). After learning basic everyday conversational formulae and sentences as case studies, you should go to arab media, articles and reports and translate them, word by word (google translator has gotten good and accurate in that, but you cannot translate arab poetry with that). Take for example al-jazeera arabic and egyptian news websites. For example: https://aawsat.com/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B1%D8%A3%D9%8A/4479821-%D9%86%D9%82%D8%B4-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AD%D9%82%D9%88%D9%86-%D9%81%D9%8A-%D8%AD%D9%85%D9%89
When doing that everyday, you will learn more and more and you will eventually at least understand the language if not speak it. Thats how I learned english a couple of years ago btw: grammar in school/course, but the expressions and words and actual talking from the internet.
For programs, see this: https://youtu.be/eKTnBfygZQA?si=oqT5t5ZJtb2Ca-Ux
However, you should know that I am talking about standard Arabic (fusha) which is the classical and formal way of speaking arabic in politics, media, religious lectures, scientific conversations, literature and papers.
Regarding everyday conversations, every arab country and even region has its dialects, the most widely understood dialect is egyptian because of the numerous movies and tv novellas from there.
But ignore the dialects, you are living in US anyway, you do not live in the arab world and after learning the standard Arabic you can learn whatever dialect you want.
Today I have started learning hebrew and the similarity of the words to arabic have helped me. However, the lack of vowels has made reading difficult. I had the same issue with Arabic. I never understood why Semites leave vowels out.
Do you have something quick and effective for hebrew? Cuz besides it, I would like to learn malaysian (which is very easy), cuz I am planning like many Muslims to leave europe and settle in malaysia in foreseeable future. Even though arabic and english are enough there, too, it can't hurt knowing their native language as well and I wonder whether hebrew could pose a problem or obstacle.
Until you are able to understand the sources on your own, I advise you to follow palestinian and israeli channels, among israelis follow leftists and right wingers and centrists, so you know all the sides. Even when you stronlgy disagree with a side, it can't hurt to understand your opponent better.
Really good to know we're taking the venerable Khaled Meshal at his word.
Totally curious question, how many times has Israel started up? Meaning not retaliated but instigated?
Is it as simple as you make it that Israel a should stop bombing right now? What would honestly happen if they did? Hamas would stop what they're doing? There are two babies fighting and one can't stop without the other around simultaneously and they both won't so automatically there will be too many casualties and the stronger will win. Is there any other way? Is there a way for netanyahu not to fight back without other sorts of repercussions? I'm not saying what he's doing and that the whole occupation is okay, not facts are it's there and facts are there's a mess, and facts are Hamas did something really bad. So what else is there to do?
What is else to do? Well, I am not yoav gallant and not the supreme court so its not my task to figure that out.
If I were an Israeli general, I would bomb those objects essential for Hamas' rule and administration. Instead, tzahal has also bombed the way between rafah and egypt, preventing palestinian civilians from fleeing through that route, which is the main route. It has also bombed mosques and media centers (or whatever the term for that is) and apartment buildings. What do you think where all the thousands of deads (among them hundreds of actually dead babies) come from? Its a dense region: don't trust the "human shileds" propaganda from tzahal.
If you want to argue then, that these are just mistakes, then........"ok", I guess...
But then shouldn't we legally prosecute the responsible officers for war crimes, or at least criminal negligence?
If we insist as in your words that "there is no other way", which effectively means that the dead are collateral damage, then you will keep doing what you are doing, but you should know that Hamas could make the same argument, too
"Yeah, maybe some of our soldiers will not be able to control themselves and will do war crimes and maybe our rockets kill some innocent civilians too and even some arabs....But hey, what else is there to do?"
Btw guys, you do not have to discuss these things with me if you are tired. I am from the balkans, we have the stomach and nerves for stuff like this.
Of course Hamas could make the same argument. But first of all going by hand and murdering babies and civilians is still different than mistakes. And same with bombing civilian targets specifically through rockets, people who are not the IDF. And if course of they would attack the IDF that would be their death, they wouldn't get anywhere so they do their thing which comes from a principle more than anything else which means Israel simply can't stand idle. And then they take hostages and run back to Gaza, what do you expect Israel to do?
It's nice in theory to propose peace, we all want that, but in practice I just don't see how.
And maybe Israel are the oppressors in general, hard to say, but these attacks on civilians can't be taken in stride because they will keep going as per the Hamas mission statement.
My proposal would be for Hamas to lay low and slowly build Israeli trust and after a while live side by side happily. Will Israel mind if there weren't any acts of terror? It seems that the only reason why Israel can't handle any two state solution is because of things that happen from Gaza which is the closest thing to living side by side as we could, and it isn't going well. Because Hamas has an agenda to not let Israel be because they're stuck in the past. If we would all be out to get our oppressors we be in an infinite regress of fighting. We have to move on and not have doctrines of hate. The fact that Hamas has a clear doctrine of vengeance means that we cannot coexist peacefully. So we have to fight because of we stop fighting they keep terrorizing.
It's asking a lot, assuming Israel did the wrong thing by being Israel, and now telling the oppressed to back off, but at the end of the day, as things stand that is the only way anyone can be peaceful. Which is letting the oppressors win in a way. But that is the only way that their own civilians can stay safe at this point. Because now it's Israeli civilians or Palestinian civilians and Israel is stronger...
"What do you expect israel to do"
Well, I expect it to be careful and precise with its bombardments for the sake of the lives of their kidnapped soldiers and reservists if not the Palestinian ones.
As per Hamas' account, a detained israeli soldier has been killed by israeli bombardment. That was a day ago or two, maybe there are more such victims. You would certainly think differently about israels approach, if that killed one was your relative or friend or if you were a Palestinian.
But I agree that Hamas and Israel should make peace, built trust, accept the situation as it is and as I proposed, west bank and gaza should become israeli territory and the local palestinians israeli citizens. I am not saying this will or can or should happen overnight, but its a process.
As I explained in my comment, israel will not be able to exist in near future. This is not antisemitism, not even anti-zionism, just reality. Its not surprising either. Historically speaking, its not the first time that you guys got a state of your own and that collapses after decades from a mixture of foreign challenges and especially internal irreconcilable differences.
I am advising Palestinians not to shed their own blood nor the blood of others by beating a dead horse, but to look for a way how to preserve their existence on that territory. And I think this proposal is the most realistic one.
guys, you do not have to discuss these things with me if you are tired. I am from the balkans, we have the stomach and nerves for stuff like this.
Lol we're a curious group and appreciate your honesty
From that same article: the white house denied and corrected the presidents claim. There is still no evidence for the claim.
Not the first time the white house corrects joe
Please share name for tefila. Thank you.
The author wants to remain totally anonymous, we daven for אחינו כל בית ישראל