None of this, or the previous article, explains properly why chareidim cannot, not tomorrow, but eventually, enter into a chareidi hesder type system.
Kim Jong Un and Lenin could also write beautiful essays extolling the values of their systems, it doesn't give those systems legitimacy or give your argument "if you know where we are coming from, you wouldn't criticise so harshly and we could all get on a bit better" (reading between the lines, of course, it's all your fault) any sort of validity.
Ultimately torah cannot be used to justify what is essentially an anti-torah approach. Although of course chareidim do that the whole time. For example, when it comes to the mishandling of sex abuse cases in the chareid world by chareidi perpetrators 'the torah requires kosher eidim and there were none in this case" and "da'as torah knows what it is doing". We heard variations of that theme over and over again in the dark days several years ago (with optimism, the position is improving).
The Gedolim, who the chareidim follow, are also dealing with the here and now. They know full well the intent to destroy the yeshiva system. This is why the secularists are not satisfied with trying to draft the non-yeshiva students. See this https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/b1xcvjbf1e Just look at Rationalist Judaism and the comments there if you are in any doubt.
The 'Gedolim' say 'nein' to any sort of discussion along the lines of a chareidi hesder system. "Our holy yeshivos will never be tampered with" etc etc etc.
And whether or not the chareidim see the <DL> hesder system as a success is neither here nor there. You just through it in to your response as an obscucification tactic.
How many Hesder programs are there, test? I know of one. Slifkin has only mentioned the same one. There is ONE Charedi hesder program, test, for elite prospects. Your question is irrelevant to the here and now, like Happy says, for two different reasons, now. It is a limited size and not able to absorb an unlimited number of students.
Also irrelevant. Everything is speculative and hypothetical by you, and has no bearing on what actually is, otherwise known as "reality". How about you start a Charedi hesder program?
"Kim Jong Un and Lenin could also write beautiful essays extolling the values of their systems, it doesn't give those systems legitimacy or give your argument "if you know where we are coming from, you wouldn't criticise so harshly and we could all get on a bit better" (reading between the lines, of course, it's all your fault) any sort of validity."
Communism as practiced had more legitimacy and staying power than the Western liberal beliefs you hold dear.
After 70 years of Communism, Russia was still recognizably Russian. The same for Poland, Hungary, and the rest.
After 70 years of Western supremacy, Germany is barely German, France is barely French, America is even less so American, and so forth.
At least those systems preserved the nations they took over before they exited the stage of history. You want to destroy our nation. Only in your puny and pathetic little mind is the Charedi approach anti-Torah. It is not. It is also far more successful at preserving the nation of Israel.
I am familiar with the Charedi Hesder program Slifkin singled out in particular, which train and feeds people into Unit 8200 and the like. My son applied to it before he decided to live the life of an avrech B"H. I don't know of any other.
To the extent these programs exist and succeed, they are not appropriate for the masses of charedim because they are elite programs, and not intended for all potential charedi prospects.
"The statement "אין דברי תורה מתקיימים אלא במי שממית עצמו עליה" ("Torah endures only in one who 'kills' himself over it") is neither a joke nor a metaphor".
It's at this point the author reveals the word salad and waffle he specialises in. It (more precisely 'kills') absolutely IS a metaphor. Unless he claims talmud torah is yehoreg v'al ya'avor. He might not know what a 'metaphor' is of course.
Happens to be, Chazal's use of מיתה wasn't supposed to be a metaphor, rather hyperbole. The feeling of emptiness which comes from devoting one's self to learning in the sense the Gemara is describing is actually a taste of מיתה, where the גוף and its feeling are cut off from the אני inside (kind of like withdrawal symptoms). According to a bunch of big, chashuve בעלי משבה the עומק of מיתה is that the mind feels connected to the body - more than that, the mind feels its true nature as a body (we feel like *we* are *our bodies*) and the pain of death is that extraction. By not following our personal whims time and time again in עולם הזה, we have the ability to remove our center to our minds and extract, at least to a large extent, our minds from our bodies while living in them (where all the מדריגות of קדושה come from), which is accomplishing what מיתה does in his very lifetime, making actual מיתה nothing more than a נשיקה, pulling a hair out of milk as the Gemara describes it. According to the Rambam (and most Aristolelian philosophers), this is actually the purpose of life in this world: a journey towards death, a journey towards separating the נשמה from the גוף. And every strong fight is a taste of death, and חז"ל's words weren't just a metaphor because it is an act of a slow מיתה taking place. It's not what a scientist would call מיתה but it is the truth of מיתה in this understanding. I expect @test to think this is waffle and I can even provide plenty of sources but only someone with some experience of feeling this emptiness from being devoted to learning can appreciate what I'm saying.
As for @test, he’s just being rude to me because I identify as Charedi, and he seems to have a personal issue with that, unfortunately. I try not to take it personally; I just see it as someone venting their frustration against a community he was apparently hurt by.
It's the usual 'words mean what I want them to mean', so prevalent in Yeshivah land.
Misah means death. Nothing more and nothing less. And it's a metaphor for deprivation of gashmiyous in general. Not hyperbole. And nothing to do with the 'omek of misah' that you are going on about.
Nobody should feel 'empty' or on the path to death when learning torah. If they do there is something seriously
Classic chareidi twisting. A discussion on botox or plastic surgery that is not out of place in the most gashmious of gashmious goyshe magazines, suddenly becomes ok and all the l'sheim shomayim. As I have oft said, when chareidland wants to do something, however non-chareidi it will always find a hetter.
No offense to Mr. Shalet, and you can do what you want, but I really don't think this argument is worth engaging. He even said that he doesn't have time or energy for a back and forth and even if one can understand his view, one needs to be very indoctrinated to not even be able to hear another side.
Classic chareidi twisting. A discussion on botox or plastic surgery that is not out of place in the most gashmious of gashmious goyshe magazines, suddenly becomes ok and all the l'sheim shomayim. As I have oft said, when chareidland wants to do something, however non-chareidi it will always find a hetter.
Government have no duty to provide any form of financial support to anybody. Strangely, when stipends are cut, chareidim ignore that. Do you also claim that Government has no right to tax?
Society is based on certain commitments by its citizens in return for certain benefits. Conscription, where necessary, and taxation, is seen as one of those commitments.
I understand your perspective, but it's hard to argue that a different perspective is unqualified, and halacha says not like you, see for example Rashbam BB 54b. It's not so hard to argue the case, but my impression from your many posts on the issue and your glee when someone finally responded is that you're ideologically rigid in this matter so gl!
You are starting with an assumption that consent is required. Who says consent is required? Nobody consented to having an income tax liability, either?
"Consent is the entire edifice in which society is built. All forms of taxation are armed robbery. Read the resources I provided you with for further clarification."
It is the third leg that actually is the greatest obstacle towards reaching an understanding and accommodation at the current time.
None of this, or the previous article, explains properly why chareidim cannot, not tomorrow, but eventually, enter into a chareidi hesder type system.
Kim Jong Un and Lenin could also write beautiful essays extolling the values of their systems, it doesn't give those systems legitimacy or give your argument "if you know where we are coming from, you wouldn't criticise so harshly and we could all get on a bit better" (reading between the lines, of course, it's all your fault) any sort of validity.
Ultimately torah cannot be used to justify what is essentially an anti-torah approach. Although of course chareidim do that the whole time. For example, when it comes to the mishandling of sex abuse cases in the chareid world by chareidi perpetrators 'the torah requires kosher eidim and there were none in this case" and "da'as torah knows what it is doing". We heard variations of that theme over and over again in the dark days several years ago (with optimism, the position is improving).
Not addressed to test specifically, but for anybody else reading this:
Nobody said chareidim can't "eventually" enter a chareidi type hesder system. We are dealing with the here and now. And in the here and now, chareidim don't see hesder as a success, and for good reason. See this comment thread: https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-war-against-the-torah/comment/61495237
The Gedolim, who the chareidim follow, are also dealing with the here and now. They know full well the intent to destroy the yeshiva system. This is why the secularists are not satisfied with trying to draft the non-yeshiva students. See this https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/b1xcvjbf1e Just look at Rationalist Judaism and the comments there if you are in any doubt.
Outright false, and you know it.
The 'Gedolim' say 'nein' to any sort of discussion along the lines of a chareidi hesder system. "Our holy yeshivos will never be tampered with" etc etc etc.
And whether or not the chareidim see the <DL> hesder system as a success is neither here nor there. You just through it in to your response as an obscucification tactic.
How many Hesder programs are there, test? I know of one. Slifkin has only mentioned the same one. There is ONE Charedi hesder program, test, for elite prospects. Your question is irrelevant to the here and now, like Happy says, for two different reasons, now. It is a limited size and not able to absorb an unlimited number of students.
Which is exactly why I am NOT talking about the here and now. There is something called "long term planning'.
Also irrelevant. Everything is speculative and hypothetical by you, and has no bearing on what actually is, otherwise known as "reality". How about you start a Charedi hesder program?
"Kim Jong Un and Lenin could also write beautiful essays extolling the values of their systems, it doesn't give those systems legitimacy or give your argument "if you know where we are coming from, you wouldn't criticise so harshly and we could all get on a bit better" (reading between the lines, of course, it's all your fault) any sort of validity."
Communism as practiced had more legitimacy and staying power than the Western liberal beliefs you hold dear.
After 70 years of Communism, Russia was still recognizably Russian. The same for Poland, Hungary, and the rest.
After 70 years of Western supremacy, Germany is barely German, France is barely French, America is even less so American, and so forth.
At least those systems preserved the nations they took over before they exited the stage of history. You want to destroy our nation. Only in your puny and pathetic little mind is the Charedi approach anti-Torah. It is not. It is also far more successful at preserving the nation of Israel.
I am familiar with the Charedi Hesder program Slifkin singled out in particular, which train and feeds people into Unit 8200 and the like. My son applied to it before he decided to live the life of an avrech B"H. I don't know of any other.
To the extent these programs exist and succeed, they are not appropriate for the masses of charedim because they are elite programs, and not intended for all potential charedi prospects.
"The statement "אין דברי תורה מתקיימים אלא במי שממית עצמו עליה" ("Torah endures only in one who 'kills' himself over it") is neither a joke nor a metaphor".
It's at this point the author reveals the word salad and waffle he specialises in. It (more precisely 'kills') absolutely IS a metaphor. Unless he claims talmud torah is yehoreg v'al ya'avor. He might not know what a 'metaphor' is of course.
Brother, you’re cherry picking an issue you found with his statement. No need to write of the article because of it
Don't mind him.
Happens to be, Chazal's use of מיתה wasn't supposed to be a metaphor, rather hyperbole. The feeling of emptiness which comes from devoting one's self to learning in the sense the Gemara is describing is actually a taste of מיתה, where the גוף and its feeling are cut off from the אני inside (kind of like withdrawal symptoms). According to a bunch of big, chashuve בעלי משבה the עומק of מיתה is that the mind feels connected to the body - more than that, the mind feels its true nature as a body (we feel like *we* are *our bodies*) and the pain of death is that extraction. By not following our personal whims time and time again in עולם הזה, we have the ability to remove our center to our minds and extract, at least to a large extent, our minds from our bodies while living in them (where all the מדריגות of קדושה come from), which is accomplishing what מיתה does in his very lifetime, making actual מיתה nothing more than a נשיקה, pulling a hair out of milk as the Gemara describes it. According to the Rambam (and most Aristolelian philosophers), this is actually the purpose of life in this world: a journey towards death, a journey towards separating the נשמה from the גוף. And every strong fight is a taste of death, and חז"ל's words weren't just a metaphor because it is an act of a slow מיתה taking place. It's not what a scientist would call מיתה but it is the truth of מיתה in this understanding. I expect @test to think this is waffle and I can even provide plenty of sources but only someone with some experience of feeling this emptiness from being devoted to learning can appreciate what I'm saying.
As for @test, he’s just being rude to me because I identify as Charedi, and he seems to have a personal issue with that, unfortunately. I try not to take it personally; I just see it as someone venting their frustration against a community he was apparently hurt by.
It's the usual 'words mean what I want them to mean', so prevalent in Yeshivah land.
Misah means death. Nothing more and nothing less. And it's a metaphor for deprivation of gashmiyous in general. Not hyperbole. And nothing to do with the 'omek of misah' that you are going on about.
Nobody should feel 'empty' or on the path to death when learning torah. If they do there is something seriously
wrong.
Exactly as predicted...
I'm not "writing off the article'. Merely providing perspective on the author's style.
I'm sorry, we cannot have a comment like this. Please delete it.
Thank you
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/2333893/mailbag-in-defense-of-the-botox-article-a-reflection-of-the-reality-bnos-yisroel-face.html
Classic chareidi twisting. A discussion on botox or plastic surgery that is not out of place in the most gashmious of gashmious goyshe magazines, suddenly becomes ok and all the l'sheim shomayim. As I have oft said, when chareidland wants to do something, however non-chareidi it will always find a hetter.
You have all kinds of ideas that are not Torah-based.
1. Human rights.
2. The self-understood evil of slavery.
Our Torah does not think that Human rights are paramount. Slavery is not unacceptable.
But according to you, when a person makes an order in a restaurant, eats it, and is then demanded payment, can he claim 'human rights'?
When a person lives in a country, uses its services, and enjoys its safety, how is it coercion when he is asked to pay his fair share?
No offense to Mr. Shalet, and you can do what you want, but I really don't think this argument is worth engaging. He even said that he doesn't have time or energy for a back and forth and even if one can understand his view, one needs to be very indoctrinated to not even be able to hear another side.
More from the sheivet levi press;
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/2333893/mailbag-in-defense-of-the-botox-article-a-reflection-of-the-reality-bnos-yisroel-face.html
Classic chareidi twisting. A discussion on botox or plastic surgery that is not out of place in the most gashmious of gashmious goyshe magazines, suddenly becomes ok and all the l'sheim shomayim. As I have oft said, when chareidland wants to do something, however non-chareidi it will always find a hetter.
Government have no duty to provide any form of financial support to anybody. Strangely, when stipends are cut, chareidim ignore that. Do you also claim that Government has no right to tax?
Society is based on certain commitments by its citizens in return for certain benefits. Conscription, where necessary, and taxation, is seen as one of those commitments.
I understand your perspective, but it's hard to argue that a different perspective is unqualified, and halacha says not like you, see for example Rashbam BB 54b. It's not so hard to argue the case, but my impression from your many posts on the issue and your glee when someone finally responded is that you're ideologically rigid in this matter so gl!
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/2333704/mailbag-from-torah-values-to-botox-the-alarming-decline-of-kosher-publications.html
That's a different argument. But if you don't think we don't need international support, you're probably mistaken.
You are starting with an assumption that consent is required. Who says consent is required? Nobody consented to having an income tax liability, either?
"Consent is the entire edifice in which society is built. All forms of taxation are armed robbery. Read the resources I provided you with for further clarification."
One of your sources is David Friedman . it's probably worth noting that he doesn't think that using grand theory arguments are useful. https://daviddfriedman.substack.com/p/libertarian-problems and https://daviddfriedman.substack.com/p/bad-arguments
It’s all very nice in theory but it ain’t the way the cookie crumbles; society doesn’t and won’t ever adopt this…
Also re conscription, that’s plain irrational, אין סומכים על הנס