About Rabbi Doctor's latest post, while he has some points which the Chareidim surely need to discuss, he is a bit too "altruistic" for my taste. He presents what he deems to be the argument, insinuating that it is Chareidim who need to change, but he deals not with the fact that there problems just as large on his side. And what he implies is the resolution is actually the problem. Sorry for the tongues; here's what I mean: The deal is that Torah is important. It is what protects us. If he wants to believe in his garbage theories that we are just like the rest of the nations who live purely by naturalism, that is not "exposing conflict," it is creating it. If he were to be a bit more Jewish here, and even if he wishes to side with those who "rationalize" everything and wants to claim that he is following Rabbi Lichtenstein or something like that, we won't call him an apikorus, and so be it. But we are just as entitled to our opinion that Torah *does* in fact protect. Until he can listen to the fact that there is someone who disagrees with him, yes HE is the hate-monger among us.
Chareidi ideology may have serious issues to contend with and may need to make changes during this war, but if he is someone who is actually trying to help, let him give an inch our way. "Yes! Torah is important. It is the most important thing that we have on this earth. But..." He can't say that, because not only does he not believe it, we aren't even entitled to our opinion to believe it is so. And because of this, he is so angry at us that he wishes "the taboo on Arabs in the government will be replaced with a taboo in Haredim in the government." - https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-growing-divide/comment/49091474
Also, with his voice he should also share the fact that there needs to be more Torah from the non-Chareidi department. Let them learn and daven better, let them care about Hashem a little bit more. If they do that, if a teshuva movement would premeate the secular and even DL culture (who surely have some tremendous people, but they also have some pretty weak folk). we will have a yeshuah and geulah based on that alone as we are constanly told by Chazal. Both sides have things to fix, them as much as us. But no, let's point fingers and pretend that we are altruistically "exposing" divide.
Of course he'll do that because he actually believes we are the only ones who deed a fixin'.
People who appreciate Torah as the most important thing are the most destructive force in the world, bar none.
" The rift and resentment against charedi society is reaching unparalleled levels. "
-as if he's just reporting what's happening, and not absolutely obsessed with stoking the resentment himself.
" Once more, virtually none of this higher price will be paid by the charedi community."
-Chareidim pay a very, very high price for being chareidi. This is the main reason why all those other people don't want to become chareidi to get all the benefits.
"There are very real concerns for national security. Even with the additional service requirements, the IDF still needs thousands and thousands of additional soldiers. "
-Why is this? Is there some sort of inevitable law of nature that armies need to constantly increase in size? What was wrong with the size of the army before? It wasn't the size of the army that caused Oct 7.
"Meanwhile, many secular Israelis have a low birthrate"
- and this is not something that can be changed?
"and are unlikely to want to remain in a country where the burden of security is constantly increasing and one large growing sector of society remains exempt"
-so they are not so committed to Zionism, they are much more committed to sticking it to the Chareidim.
"As Tehila Friedman asks of the charedi community in a searing article, what is the plan for the continued existence of the State of Israel?"
-Why is this dependent upon chareidim joining the army? What would they do if chareidim didn't exist? If one day 1.5 million Israelis disappeared? They couldn't survive anymore?
" As discussed in an earlier post, charedim refuse to enlist for several reasons which are almost insurmountable. They’d rather go to prison and start a civil war than enlist...The main key, as usual, is money."
- He contradicts himself תוך כדי דיבור. He says they would rather go to prison, yet thinks that taking money away from them will change their mind. These are not the words of somebody who put any thought into the matter, but somebody driven crazy by hatred.
I don't know what this IDF crisis is that he speaks of.
My son was called up several weeks ago and reported for duty at Tzeelim Base. 16 days later, after some training and thumb twiddling, he and the other 600 soldiers in his cohort were discharged B"H.
People in government and media say and do what they want, but if they happen to say something truthful, which is rare, it's like a broken clock, and unintentional.
"They’d rather go to prison and start a civil war than enlist..."
The first part of the statement is true while the latter is a vicious lie and projection. The charedim start a civil war?! No, it's THEY who castigate the charedim who seek war.
I will further add regarding my son's service that this was the first time for any of this group to get called up since the war started. Many were surprised to be sent home so soon. My wife and I sure were.
The weaponry they were issued was trash. My son got an M-16 (not the more modern M-4) that dated to the First Gulf War (Desert Storm) at the latest, and had seen a lot of use. The barrel had rust on it. He apparently got one of the better guns too (although I hear actual combat-bound troops get better). There was ongoing concern about conserving ammo. They did some pretty cool training from the sound of it.
There is a lot of popular support for the troops. They had a number of sponsored barbecues, I think five during his time there. I saw some pics of one, with Charedim present doing the cooking (Badatz!). My son was home both Shabboses, so out of those 16 days, he was away around 10 of them. A bbq every other day on average.
The greatest irony of the anti-chareidi rhetoric is that they constantly harp on the fact that the chareidim have a high birth rate, yet at the same time they claim we need the chareidim because the secular have a low birth rate.
Moreover, the entire world views the Israeli problem as essentially a demographic problem. The reason the Israeli army needs to have such overwhelming strength is solely due to the demographic issue.
Perhaps the chareidim really are doing something right?
"Not related to Rabbi Slifkin's posting but related to your comment, my wife and I have been to many daati leumi as well as charedi weddings. We have noticed that the charedi weddings are always so solemn, very little simcha. Half the time, the boy (and/or the girl) seem ready to puke. Whereas, at the DL weddings, the simcha was out of this world. Everyone so joyous."
If he's talking about Modox DL, then the reason is obvious, והמבין יבין.
The Chareidim don't know how the couple will survive without a parnassah. The Chasan and Callah don't know.each other and aren't really interested in marrying one another. The DL has his head stewed on straight.
Have you been binge watching Yenta and Fiddler on the Roof and other tall tales about life in the shtetl? When was the last time you were actually at a Charedi wedding?
"He says they would rather go to prison, yet thinks that taking money away from them will change their mind. These are not the words of somebody who put any thought into the matter, but somebody driven crazy by hatred."
It's not a contradiction. At least, not necessarily. There are likely some amount of charedim who would like to enlist, but not if they feel coerced into to doing so. If they get no money from the government and face a giant cash crunch, that could certainly move the needle. (Note that I'm NOT making an argument either way about what the government should do.)
Cutting off funding is a tactic which works even against suicidal terrorist groups.
If there are chareidim who want to enlist without being coerced, they could do that right now. Chareidim already live in poverty, so taking away the little they have with the explicit intention to force them to join is just more coercion. I think more likely that there are some chareidim who would bend to increased coercion, whether jail or monetary pressure.
Sorry, let me clarify what I meant. There are charedim who might be willing to enlist, and rabbonim who would encourage them to do so, but they won't do it if they feel there's a shmad. https://www.bhol.co.il/news/138619 Cutting funding- especially if as part of general austerity cuts- would be more likely to create an incentive structure where a charedi can enlist without being ostracized from charedi society or burning any bridges.
I'm sure some will. But the ones who scream shmad every 5 minutes aren't relevant. And for good reason. Attempting to draft someone is inherently more coercive than simply pulling funding. Especially if the funding being pulled isn't directed at anyone in particular. People generally respond to incentives.
Another, related, point is that cutting funding is generally considered a worthwhile goal in and of itself. It's basic dollars and cents. And the default is that governments shouldn't be subsidizing everything. By contrast, a draft is a necessary evil. It needs to be justified, especially to a population which (rightly or wrongly) sees the the army along the same lines as many minorities in the US view the police.
So, whatever manpower shortages the IDF has, it's always the Dati Leumi who will have to leave yeshiva to make sure up the shortfall, never charedim. And if even that's not enough, then it's just too bad for Israel. Got it.
Shalom again my dear friend and brother Natan! Nice to see you hale and hearty! I find it really funny that you ban all discussion on your substack (because you are petrified of criticism), so you have to come here to have a discussion!
I'm sorry, I don't really see the unfairness. The Dati Leumi yeshivos are explicitly formed to combine learning and army. That's literally what they signed up for. You don't sign up for something and then complain about fulfilling your end of the deal. And to their credit, I don't see most DL soldiers complaining. Mostly bitter, lazy cowards who have never gotten within 10 miles of an army base, but spend all their waking hours complaining about those yeshiva students.
If the Dati wanted to be part of לא שבט לוי בלבד, they could have attended a chareidi yeshiva, or made their own Dati Leumi version. In fact I think they did, who else is Rav Shapira talking to? Not a chareidi, he is responding to a Dati Leumi avrech who feels guilty about not fighting. Rav Shapira responds that he has the most important job, and is acting in accordance with Daas Torah! שפתיים ישק!
Finally, only in your degenerate mind do the DL have to do any such thing. If they want to learn, they can learn, and they should learn, even in prison, just like the Charedim would do, if it came to that. Military prison isn't like civilian prison.They could open batei midrash and invite the many thousands of soldiers who pass through them to join them and mekarev the am in a spirit of achdus. The guards too, who are also, after all, often draftees. They could even force the issue by taking the initiative and showing up en masse at prison demanding entry, tefillin, seforim, and sifrei Torah in hand. What a media spectacle that would make.
Your mind is twisted. I thought you might untwist it after the onset of the war. Not so.
That's right Natan. I think you got it. That's exactly what they should do, if they are troubled by being disconnected from their learning prematurely. Of course, I see them as engaging in a different and just as necessary form of service.
We know what you see. We don't care. You're a blathering and hate-filled retard who can't construct a coherent argument free of contradictions.
Right, of course despite all the hundreds killed and thousands injured and the impending war with Hezbollah, you know the IDF's manpower needs much better than the IDF.
As I understand it, there's no actual shortage. The IDF wants to have a 'surplus' of troops in case multiple additional fronts open up. Which is probably a good idea, but doesn't rise to any imminent crisis of manpower.
I could be wrong. It would be nice to have an actual assessment which details how many troops are necessary. But that doesn't seem to be forthcoming.
Thank you for confirming my statement. Natan is a gullible retard who believes everything he reads in the media. Especially when it aligns with his false beliefs.
Ok, I did. I see no reason to take his opinion more seriously than Rav Shapira. But anyways where do you see they argue? I think you are just making up a dispute where none exists. Talk about no daas!
Nobody disputes Torah sustains the world and gives strength in all creatures, and especially for the struggles of the Jewish nation.
The point of contention is whether an entire community should permenently seek to exempt themselves from everything etc etc (I really can't be bothered). And on that he says........nothing.
So, wise Test, how do you propose we continue having learning as the center of Klal Yisroel without keeping Chareidim as they are? And please have an actual, factual, practical, implementable proposal, not some vague idea to make people happy.
All those who are merely 'in learning' to avoid the army should spend some of their time in some form of national service. It's not difficult. This can be determined either by walking around with eyes open (we all know the 'learners', who nearly every time you look at them, are schmoozing, or outside the BH - even in a 'good' yeshivah/kollel they exist, in a weaker yeshivah/kollel it is a substantial number) or a propert test system.
I agree, because that way more people will actually learn (so they shouldn't need to join the army)!
But unfortunately this wouldn't appease the Chareidi-haters - you'll be surprised at how many people are actually learning already! These numbers won't be nearly enough to satisfy our hungry, ignorant opponents who think learning is nothing but an academic exercise, only worse because it doesn't boost the economy (Rabbi doctor is always careful to make this crucial distinction).
Shkoyach for the chizzuk!
About Rabbi Doctor's latest post, while he has some points which the Chareidim surely need to discuss, he is a bit too "altruistic" for my taste. He presents what he deems to be the argument, insinuating that it is Chareidim who need to change, but he deals not with the fact that there problems just as large on his side. And what he implies is the resolution is actually the problem. Sorry for the tongues; here's what I mean: The deal is that Torah is important. It is what protects us. If he wants to believe in his garbage theories that we are just like the rest of the nations who live purely by naturalism, that is not "exposing conflict," it is creating it. If he were to be a bit more Jewish here, and even if he wishes to side with those who "rationalize" everything and wants to claim that he is following Rabbi Lichtenstein or something like that, we won't call him an apikorus, and so be it. But we are just as entitled to our opinion that Torah *does* in fact protect. Until he can listen to the fact that there is someone who disagrees with him, yes HE is the hate-monger among us.
Chareidi ideology may have serious issues to contend with and may need to make changes during this war, but if he is someone who is actually trying to help, let him give an inch our way. "Yes! Torah is important. It is the most important thing that we have on this earth. But..." He can't say that, because not only does he not believe it, we aren't even entitled to our opinion to believe it is so. And because of this, he is so angry at us that he wishes "the taboo on Arabs in the government will be replaced with a taboo in Haredim in the government." - https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-growing-divide/comment/49091474
Also, with his voice he should also share the fact that there needs to be more Torah from the non-Chareidi department. Let them learn and daven better, let them care about Hashem a little bit more. If they do that, if a teshuva movement would premeate the secular and even DL culture (who surely have some tremendous people, but they also have some pretty weak folk). we will have a yeshuah and geulah based on that alone as we are constanly told by Chazal. Both sides have things to fix, them as much as us. But no, let's point fingers and pretend that we are altruistically "exposing" divide.
Of course he'll do that because he actually believes we are the only ones who deed a fixin'.
People who appreciate Torah as the most important thing are the most destructive force in the world, bar none.
Some comments on that post
" The rift and resentment against charedi society is reaching unparalleled levels. "
-as if he's just reporting what's happening, and not absolutely obsessed with stoking the resentment himself.
" Once more, virtually none of this higher price will be paid by the charedi community."
-Chareidim pay a very, very high price for being chareidi. This is the main reason why all those other people don't want to become chareidi to get all the benefits.
"There are very real concerns for national security. Even with the additional service requirements, the IDF still needs thousands and thousands of additional soldiers. "
-Why is this? Is there some sort of inevitable law of nature that armies need to constantly increase in size? What was wrong with the size of the army before? It wasn't the size of the army that caused Oct 7.
"Meanwhile, many secular Israelis have a low birthrate"
- and this is not something that can be changed?
"and are unlikely to want to remain in a country where the burden of security is constantly increasing and one large growing sector of society remains exempt"
-so they are not so committed to Zionism, they are much more committed to sticking it to the Chareidim.
"As Tehila Friedman asks of the charedi community in a searing article, what is the plan for the continued existence of the State of Israel?"
-Why is this dependent upon chareidim joining the army? What would they do if chareidim didn't exist? If one day 1.5 million Israelis disappeared? They couldn't survive anymore?
" As discussed in an earlier post, charedim refuse to enlist for several reasons which are almost insurmountable. They’d rather go to prison and start a civil war than enlist...The main key, as usual, is money."
- He contradicts himself תוך כדי דיבור. He says they would rather go to prison, yet thinks that taking money away from them will change their mind. These are not the words of somebody who put any thought into the matter, but somebody driven crazy by hatred.
I don't know what this IDF crisis is that he speaks of.
My son was called up several weeks ago and reported for duty at Tzeelim Base. 16 days later, after some training and thumb twiddling, he and the other 600 soldiers in his cohort were discharged B"H.
People in government and media say and do what they want, but if they happen to say something truthful, which is rare, it's like a broken clock, and unintentional.
"They’d rather go to prison and start a civil war than enlist..."
The first part of the statement is true while the latter is a vicious lie and projection. The charedim start a civil war?! No, it's THEY who castigate the charedim who seek war.
I will further add regarding my son's service that this was the first time for any of this group to get called up since the war started. Many were surprised to be sent home so soon. My wife and I sure were.
The weaponry they were issued was trash. My son got an M-16 (not the more modern M-4) that dated to the First Gulf War (Desert Storm) at the latest, and had seen a lot of use. The barrel had rust on it. He apparently got one of the better guns too (although I hear actual combat-bound troops get better). There was ongoing concern about conserving ammo. They did some pretty cool training from the sound of it.
There is a lot of popular support for the troops. They had a number of sponsored barbecues, I think five during his time there. I saw some pics of one, with Charedim present doing the cooking (Badatz!). My son was home both Shabboses, so out of those 16 days, he was away around 10 of them. A bbq every other day on average.
The greatest irony of the anti-chareidi rhetoric is that they constantly harp on the fact that the chareidim have a high birth rate, yet at the same time they claim we need the chareidim because the secular have a low birth rate.
Moreover, the entire world views the Israeli problem as essentially a demographic problem. The reason the Israeli army needs to have such overwhelming strength is solely due to the demographic issue.
Perhaps the chareidim really are doing something right?
I found this comment funny
"Not related to Rabbi Slifkin's posting but related to your comment, my wife and I have been to many daati leumi as well as charedi weddings. We have noticed that the charedi weddings are always so solemn, very little simcha. Half the time, the boy (and/or the girl) seem ready to puke. Whereas, at the DL weddings, the simcha was out of this world. Everyone so joyous."
If he's talking about Modox DL, then the reason is obvious, והמבין יבין.
The Chareidim don't know how the couple will survive without a parnassah. The Chasan and Callah don't know.each other and aren't really interested in marrying one another. The DL has his head stewed on straight.
I agree that it is much harder to be a chareidi and chareidim sacrifice infinitely more than the Modox, no doubt about that. But that's not what I was talking about. Here's a hint https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-halakhic-endorsement-of-coed-schools
Have you been binge watching Yenta and Fiddler on the Roof and other tall tales about life in the shtetl? When was the last time you were actually at a Charedi wedding?
"as if he's just reporting what's happening, and not absolutely obsessed with stoking the resentment himself."
There's plenty of resentment. No need to blame it on Dr Slifkin. He's not stoking much which isn't already stoked. https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/yokra13794094
"He says they would rather go to prison, yet thinks that taking money away from them will change their mind. These are not the words of somebody who put any thought into the matter, but somebody driven crazy by hatred."
It's not a contradiction. At least, not necessarily. There are likely some amount of charedim who would like to enlist, but not if they feel coerced into to doing so. If they get no money from the government and face a giant cash crunch, that could certainly move the needle. (Note that I'm NOT making an argument either way about what the government should do.)
Cutting off funding is a tactic which works even against suicidal terrorist groups.
If there are chareidim who want to enlist without being coerced, they could do that right now. Chareidim already live in poverty, so taking away the little they have with the explicit intention to force them to join is just more coercion. I think more likely that there are some chareidim who would bend to increased coercion, whether jail or monetary pressure.
Sorry, let me clarify what I meant. There are charedim who might be willing to enlist, and rabbonim who would encourage them to do so, but they won't do it if they feel there's a shmad. https://www.bhol.co.il/news/138619 Cutting funding- especially if as part of general austerity cuts- would be more likely to create an incentive structure where a charedi can enlist without being ostracized from charedi society or burning any bridges.
Don't think so. Cutting funding would make it more about shmad than before. (Not that it is necessarily true, but they will take it as such.)
I'm sure some will. But the ones who scream shmad every 5 minutes aren't relevant. And for good reason. Attempting to draft someone is inherently more coercive than simply pulling funding. Especially if the funding being pulled isn't directed at anyone in particular. People generally respond to incentives.
Another, related, point is that cutting funding is generally considered a worthwhile goal in and of itself. It's basic dollars and cents. And the default is that governments shouldn't be subsidizing everything. By contrast, a draft is a necessary evil. It needs to be justified, especially to a population which (rightly or wrongly) sees the the army along the same lines as many minorities in the US view the police.
So, whatever manpower shortages the IDF has, it's always the Dati Leumi who will have to leave yeshiva to make sure up the shortfall, never charedim. And if even that's not enough, then it's just too bad for Israel. Got it.
Shalom again my dear friend and brother Natan! Nice to see you hale and hearty! I find it really funny that you ban all discussion on your substack (because you are petrified of criticism), so you have to come here to have a discussion!
I'm sorry, I don't really see the unfairness. The Dati Leumi yeshivos are explicitly formed to combine learning and army. That's literally what they signed up for. You don't sign up for something and then complain about fulfilling your end of the deal. And to their credit, I don't see most DL soldiers complaining. Mostly bitter, lazy cowards who have never gotten within 10 miles of an army base, but spend all their waking hours complaining about those yeshiva students.
If the Dati wanted to be part of לא שבט לוי בלבד, they could have attended a chareidi yeshiva, or made their own Dati Leumi version. In fact I think they did, who else is Rav Shapira talking to? Not a chareidi, he is responding to a Dati Leumi avrech who feels guilty about not fighting. Rav Shapira responds that he has the most important job, and is acting in accordance with Daas Torah! שפתיים ישק!
Why do you even bother commenting here? You banned the proprietors from commenting at RJ. Talk about an inferiority complex. Got it.
Finally, only in your degenerate mind do the DL have to do any such thing. If they want to learn, they can learn, and they should learn, even in prison, just like the Charedim would do, if it came to that. Military prison isn't like civilian prison.They could open batei midrash and invite the many thousands of soldiers who pass through them to join them and mekarev the am in a spirit of achdus. The guards too, who are also, after all, often draftees. They could even force the issue by taking the initiative and showing up en masse at prison demanding entry, tefillin, seforim, and sifrei Torah in hand. What a media spectacle that would make.
Your mind is twisted. I thought you might untwist it after the onset of the war. Not so.
Ah, so the Dati community should also not serve! Got it.
That's right Natan. I think you got it. That's exactly what they should do, if they are troubled by being disconnected from their learning prematurely. Of course, I see them as engaging in a different and just as necessary form of service.
We know what you see. We don't care. You're a blathering and hate-filled retard who can't construct a coherent argument free of contradictions.
If the reason they're serving is because of burden-sharing and not out of conviction of the righteousness of their cause, they shouldn't.
See my comment below about these alleged manpower shortages.
Right, of course despite all the hundreds killed and thousands injured and the impending war with Hezbollah, you know the IDF's manpower needs much better than the IDF.
I write from personal experience. You regurgitate and parrot what you read in the media. My personal experience trumps your chewing of your cud.
If their manpower needs are so great, why did they send my son and his 600 man cohort home?
Did you even read my comment? It doesn't sound like it.
As I understand it, there's no actual shortage. The IDF wants to have a 'surplus' of troops in case multiple additional fronts open up. Which is probably a good idea, but doesn't rise to any imminent crisis of manpower.
I could be wrong. It would be nice to have an actual assessment which details how many troops are necessary. But that doesn't seem to be forthcoming.
Thank you for confirming my statement. Natan is a gullible retard who believes everything he reads in the media. Especially when it aligns with his false beliefs.
R. Lichtenstein said, if there is no Daas there is no Daas Torah. With all due respect, don't attend R. Shapira's Yeshiva.
Who is R. Lichtenstein and why is his opinion better than R. Shapira?
Read up and you will know.
Ok, I did. I see no reason to take his opinion more seriously than Rav Shapira. But anyways where do you see they argue? I think you are just making up a dispute where none exists. Talk about no daas!
Please learn his many ספרים and מאמרים, and then you'll see his גדלות.
Then you'll erase your wrong comment.
Daas get it. No Daas no Torah.
I can see that you didn't understand my answer. I'll try to think of a better way to explain, so that you will understand and repent.
He teaches in a hesder yeshiva...
Nobody disputes Torah sustains the world and gives strength in all creatures, and especially for the struggles of the Jewish nation.
The point of contention is whether an entire community should permenently seek to exempt themselves from everything etc etc (I really can't be bothered). And on that he says........nothing.
As usual, cherry-picked soundbytes......
So, wise Test, how do you propose we continue having learning as the center of Klal Yisroel without keeping Chareidim as they are? And please have an actual, factual, practical, implementable proposal, not some vague idea to make people happy.
Floor is yours.
Quotas for yeshivot. If you have Terrorists you will have yeshivot?
All those who are merely 'in learning' to avoid the army should spend some of their time in some form of national service. It's not difficult. This can be determined either by walking around with eyes open (we all know the 'learners', who nearly every time you look at them, are schmoozing, or outside the BH - even in a 'good' yeshivah/kollel they exist, in a weaker yeshivah/kollel it is a substantial number) or a propert test system.
I agree, because that way more people will actually learn (so they shouldn't need to join the army)!
But unfortunately this wouldn't appease the Chareidi-haters - you'll be surprised at how many people are actually learning already! These numbers won't be nearly enough to satisfy our hungry, ignorant opponents who think learning is nothing but an academic exercise, only worse because it doesn't boost the economy (Rabbi doctor is always careful to make this crucial distinction).
And you think you can get away with it without serving.All this while literal פיקוח נפש is staring you in the face. You will have to face חשבון הנפש.
And you would like to think
service in the army isn't all that necessary. You must eat YENEMS. I'm not sure about the hasgachah.