This is mainly relevant to your last post but as this is current I am posting here. Hope you appreciate.
Considering that it is almost שלשים יום קודם החג, I think it's appropiate to share the "modern" "rational" twist on רבים ביד מעטים גבורים ביד חלשים which I've recently discovered.
Our rational friend is not afraid of the fact that the Israeli defense was made a laughingstock in the whole world. He is not afraid of the possibility that Iran may ח"ו go nuclear, nor of its many proxies surrounding Israel with hundreds of thousands of missiles and other weapon, nor of the possibility that Iran may team up with Russia and China. He is not afraid that the Israeli Arabs may ח"ו join with their brothers, nor of the fact that the world may soon turn their back on Israel due to their supposed "war crimes". He is not afraid of the fact that we have seen that the Arabs are worse than suicide bombers and kamikaze attacks, worse than כאשר תעשינה הדבורים, as they are willing to sacrifice their life for even a half or less of an Israeli life.
What is it that terrifies him? The concept of over one hundred thousand yeshivaleit sitting and learning with hasmada. That is what scares the daylights out of him.
Firstly while it is true that only a small percentage of soldiers are trained combat soldiers and enter combat the reality is that every soldier, repeat every soldier, knows that he or she may end up in combat as was experienced in 1973 when the Syrians broke through and everyone e.g cooks, mechanics, first aiders etc were roped in to try and stop the Syrians.
I imagine this was repeated recently on 7 October when many soldiers bravely on their own initiative and often without equipment or sufficient ammunition went immediately on hearing the news to the attacked settlements to rescue our brethren. How many yeshiva bochrim or those kollelnikim in learning went down there to help - at the risk of their lives as those soldiers went ?
Secondly there are too many scandals of those in "learning" and whose institutions receive Israeli government grants (mainly funded by taxes paid by chillonim ) who actually are working part or full time. What a chillul hasem.
Government checks have found in a number of cases that the numbers paid for exceed the numbers found learning.
Those who want an exemption in learning need to know that you need to earn it by learning full time, not simply registering at a learning institution.
Thirdly the army has tests and trials and those not meeting them will be downgraded in their roles or at the extreme discharged from the army. Many and perhaps most learning institutions have no test. Life is easy and convenient. Just register and get your exemption.
Finally I see no equivalence between a person who is in learning (with usually convenient hours) where the most significant danger seems to be a masechta falling off a bookshelf onto his head and a soldier who can be killed or wounded for life or captured and tortured and who is on call 24 hours a day 7 days a week.
Learning while of course necessary for every one of us (including serving soldiers who often do learn in their occasional free moments) is not remotely equivalent to putting your life on the line.
That the learning community does not remotely recognise and praise those who do serve in the army in whatever role – is IMHO a lack of hakoras hatov.
When you write 'full time lomdei torah' what does that mean? You know bein hazmanim is about 10 weeks. Add one day a week and many places don't do Friday or only half day Friday. So do the maths. Is that really 'full time'?
Sounds like you have a whole bunch of unrelated complaints about chareidim, most inaccurate. For example "life is easy and convenient". I don't believe anybody without a very strong bias who would describe Israeli chareidi life as "easy and convenient".
Then you say "Learning while of course necessary for every one of us (including serving soldiers who often do learn in their occasional free moments) is not remotely equivalent to putting your life on the line." This is exactly the attitude I am trying to correct. First of all, not more than 5% are actually putting their lives on the line, but the only ones you have a problem with are the learners? But more importantly, you lose sight of the purpose of putting lives on the line in the first place. It is (or ought to be, as much as we can make it) a Holy War.
"That the learning community does not remotely recognise and praise those who do serve in the army in whatever role – is IMHO a lack of hakoras hatov."- This is completely false, they have shown and are showing hakaras hatov including on this blog.
Why is not 'easy and convenient'? No boss, no managers, only a fraction of kollelim have proper farhers, paternity leave is far more generous that in any workplace, 10 week vacation, and most of all, in learning after some experience, you can't actually get anything wrong, or at least if you do, nobody pulls you up on it. Sounds like easy and convenient to me. And the real nisyonos they have, like not rolling in late to seider or tefillah, many do not pass.
Indeed. But what is not 'easy and convenient' about that? Exactly my point. Both mehalchim are ok. Unlike in work, when you actually need to get things right.
You forgot. I was in kollel many years myself. I'm not some ba'al habbos commentator. I know exactly what goes on. A very low proportion meet this ideallistic picture painted to ba'al habbtim typically when soliciting funds. "Shach is a bit schver but time to move on." You try doing that with a task at work.
The situation in EY is worse. There is a large contingent in kollel ONLY to avoid the army! A sort of reverse sheivet levi. Don't forget us good learners only see the higher standard kollelim. Which is a very small percetntage. You lot need to take off the rose colored spectacles.
If we can establish the importance of learning, not just here and there, the conversation runs a different tone. Because then we can talk to each other. Yes learning is important, very very important, but there are issues with the chareidi implementation. Can we work on fixing them? The answer is a lot more complicated once we examine the fine print post that basic chareidi assumption which will not change even if you disagree because they have plenty of sources and very tremendous talmidei chachamim to back up that assumption
One of the best presented counter-arguments on this issue I've seen these days.
I especially liked the point about only 5% serving in combat units, I don't know if that's true but if it is, Chareidim would never make it there anyway.
I happen to believe the main reason [not during war] that people complain about Chareidim not joining the army is for their resistance to being לאומי, to be a part of Israeli culture like the rest.
Agreed. As was always the problem with Jews btw. We never integrated into society. Our talmud keeps us too busy. Now, as it turns out, this includes secular Jewish societies as well...
Is it though? If course there are differences (I'm not comparing Israel to Russia out the secular Israelis to a Russian czar) but the fact that we live for a very specific purpose and are not part of "society" is something a Russian would say 100 years ago, something a Frenchman would say 500 years ago, is something a Spanish gentleman would say 800 years ago, is something Haman said in his time. And the secular Israelis are saying now. I'm not comparing the people to each other but their complaint isn't the same? We are parasites and we are a burden to society and we take and don't give. Because we are not Babylonian or Persian or Hellenist or Spanish, Russian, German, French or American. And we are not secular either. I'd say we aren't 'Israelis' in the colloquial sense either. We are God's people and we do His will whether the outsiders get it or not. We live Israel because it is God's home. I would've hooked that in Israel they'd appreciate Godly service.
Point is that Chareidim are once again parasites like Jews have always been.
If one understands the importance of Torah, like I'm sure you do, Avraham, there is no problem with the chareidi attitude. But take out the goal and all that's left is the hollow parasites argument...
So, no desire to change minds? Just yell and wave hands?
You didn't answer the question. What do you hope to accomplish? shulman is one person. What about the blog proprietor? Me? Rabbenu Yonah, who proffered a definition of "hater of Hashem" that refers to those meticulous in observance but pained by those who talk like shulman? Are you a hater of Hashem too?
I have a desire to protest a סילוף התורה. I agree with the blpg proprietor to an extent but shulman is saying the exact opposite. The blog said that learners are contributing to the jewish war effort. Shulman was implying that learners stand aloof from society jist like they did under the czar and his wars! Im not saying all chareidim agree with him but that is an attitude which pervades a portion of the society (a peleg rosh yeshiva said this openly by צוק איתן). The less mainstrean this attitude becomes the less animosity there will be towards charedim. Were already going in a positive direction but folks like shulman and the guy that called our martyrs "lowlives" really really dont help.
What is the proportion of combat to support personnel in a modern army? This Wiki article discusses the numbers for the American military from WW1 through today:
When extrapolated to the entire population, certainly much less than 5% serve in a combat role, even here. Even when restricted to just the active military, it is a tiny fraction of the whole.
The vast, vast majority of any modern military are in support roles (and quite a few of those roles are pointless). Something I have pointed out to those who seethe with anger and resentment.
An army needs maintenance in peace times for readiness in times of war. So training, health, weapons development, research into soldier motivation, organisational structure and techniques, officer and troop assessment etc etc are all necessary. I think the Israelis at the sharp end know what they need, certainly better than I and perhaps better than you.
Your argument would be a lot stronger if you pointed out that 2000 chareidim just enlisted. Clearly, when it is viewed as necessary, chareidim enlist. End of argument.
So in a post claiming that Charedim are just as connected to the horrors of the situation as people whose children are fighting in Gaza, you repeatedly describe people who are angry at the Charedi lack of army service as "partners with Hamas."
I think that's called a self-defeating argument. As well as a truly disgusting one.
Looks like you didn't pay attention to the post. The whole post was addressing those who are angry at the Charedi lack of army service, and explaining why that is the wrong perspective. They were not described as "partners with Hamas", G-D forbid.
The "partners with Hamas" line was referring to those who are so filled with hatred, so sick in the head, that they make the entire war about their personal vendetta against the groups they hate, up to and including inventing convoluted fictitious motivations about the deeply-held beliefs of those groups. To those people I wished a רפואה שלימה.
I'm actually going to agree with this, in part. I don't think it's at all appropriate to label anyone as a partner to Hamas unless they're somehow actually a partner. It doesn't do anything but cheapen the horror of their savagery. Writing demagogic blog posts isn't that, however much I dislike said posts. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-importance-of-torah-study-vs/comment/43098546
She is arguing that we should draft bnei yeshivos *not* because there is an urgent need for soldiers to defend the country, but so that her kids could come home more often. That would be very nice for them and her, but is a much weaker than the argument that we actually need more soldiers for defense. And it is totally predicated on the assumption that the yeshiva students are currently doing nothing useful. Why not draft 40-something year old museum directors (and hundreds of thousands of others that are exempt for similar arbitrary reasons) so that her kids could come home more often?
That's a good point. But I prefer not to argue with a woman whose kids might well be fighting in Gaza for all I know. Anyhow, I got my hands full with the regular suspects as it is.
Good call. My response to her was (when my very close relative Joyous wasn't banned), thanks so much for your kids' service. They are fighting for the greatest cause and sanctifying God's name.
Only a few sentences in that long screed actually proports to deal with the point. I don't expect your lackeys here to actually realise that, not bening trained in critical analysis of discussion papers. For example this complete bumph completely irrelevant to the point; "And even those who do not, still possess the attribute of Ahavas Yisrael, feel solidarity with the rest of the country, and are affected by the losses on a deep emotional level.". Gee that's nice. Deep emotional level my foot. The number of times I have heard that 'there was a Buddah at that festival' bunch of hedonists blah blah blah. Deeply effected by the losses. My foot. The only fear is that Israel will lose and Iran will blow the country to bits, which is a fear they chareidim will lose their lives. They couldn't care less about a few secular kibbutzim.
1) Many chareidim did not chose anything. They were born into the system. Ditto the soldiers.
2) The screed does not deal with the women who do not learn torah.
3) None of the screed deals with the numerous non-learners or part time learners or people that claim to be learners but in fact work.
4) None of that screed deals with the fact that there are plenty of other ways to assist the national effort.
5) You muddle up, in your usual unlearned style, children and wider family. The two are not remotely comparable and is telling of the lack of your self-awareness. Very few chareidim's actual sons and daughters are at risk of death. Wider family is not-comparable. A minute percentage of chareidim (if any( will be sitting shivah for their chareidi children killed in battle. I doubt the fact that a "mizrachi" "DL" cousin will be killed keeps any chareidi mother up at night.
But I am pleased that finally the 'we are sheivet levi' and the 'we are relying on torah protects' nonsense has been dropped.
"Oh my friends, my friends forgive me
That I live and you are gone
There's a grief that can't be spoken
There's a pain goes on and on"
The real proof for the deep emotional whatever chareidim have you claim, will be when the dust dies down. Right now, nobody knows whether chareidi effort is 75% good PR and only 25% genuine.
As Shulman points out, this is quite an incoherent rant.
But from the bit I can make out what you are saying: Just because you don't know anything about ahavas Yisrael doesn't mean others don't. About #5, by your standards only a very small percentage of any families are contributing to the war effort, because many more don't have sons in combat . And about your "doubt", just because you don't care about your relatives being killed doesn't mean others don't.
This is mainly relevant to your last post but as this is current I am posting here. Hope you appreciate.
Considering that it is almost שלשים יום קודם החג, I think it's appropiate to share the "modern" "rational" twist on רבים ביד מעטים גבורים ביד חלשים which I've recently discovered.
Our rational friend is not afraid of the fact that the Israeli defense was made a laughingstock in the whole world. He is not afraid of the possibility that Iran may ח"ו go nuclear, nor of its many proxies surrounding Israel with hundreds of thousands of missiles and other weapon, nor of the possibility that Iran may team up with Russia and China. He is not afraid that the Israeli Arabs may ח"ו join with their brothers, nor of the fact that the world may soon turn their back on Israel due to their supposed "war crimes". He is not afraid of the fact that we have seen that the Arabs are worse than suicide bombers and kamikaze attacks, worse than כאשר תעשינה הדבורים, as they are willing to sacrifice their life for even a half or less of an Israeli life.
None of this scares him. After all, the Israeli army is fully capable against any such threats. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/theodicy-or-idiocy
What is it that terrifies him? The concept of over one hundred thousand yeshivaleit sitting and learning with hasmada. That is what scares the daylights out of him.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-importance-of-torah-study-vs/comment/42958911
Truly רבים ביד מעטים גבורים ביד חלשים.
The article is somewhat misleading.
Firstly while it is true that only a small percentage of soldiers are trained combat soldiers and enter combat the reality is that every soldier, repeat every soldier, knows that he or she may end up in combat as was experienced in 1973 when the Syrians broke through and everyone e.g cooks, mechanics, first aiders etc were roped in to try and stop the Syrians.
I imagine this was repeated recently on 7 October when many soldiers bravely on their own initiative and often without equipment or sufficient ammunition went immediately on hearing the news to the attacked settlements to rescue our brethren. How many yeshiva bochrim or those kollelnikim in learning went down there to help - at the risk of their lives as those soldiers went ?
Secondly there are too many scandals of those in "learning" and whose institutions receive Israeli government grants (mainly funded by taxes paid by chillonim ) who actually are working part or full time. What a chillul hasem.
Government checks have found in a number of cases that the numbers paid for exceed the numbers found learning.
Those who want an exemption in learning need to know that you need to earn it by learning full time, not simply registering at a learning institution.
Thirdly the army has tests and trials and those not meeting them will be downgraded in their roles or at the extreme discharged from the army. Many and perhaps most learning institutions have no test. Life is easy and convenient. Just register and get your exemption.
Finally I see no equivalence between a person who is in learning (with usually convenient hours) where the most significant danger seems to be a masechta falling off a bookshelf onto his head and a soldier who can be killed or wounded for life or captured and tortured and who is on call 24 hours a day 7 days a week.
Learning while of course necessary for every one of us (including serving soldiers who often do learn in their occasional free moments) is not remotely equivalent to putting your life on the line.
That the learning community does not remotely recognise and praise those who do serve in the army in whatever role – is IMHO a lack of hakoras hatov.
I don't know when you served in the army and where you served, but I'll write what I know based on my שירות.
Soldiers serving the קריה, like I did, are not supposed to see any sort of combat, and have no useful training for combat.
I have a son who is serving in an elite unit. They train all the time for combat, and that's the purpose of their שירות.
there is no point in sending ג'ובניקים to combat, and it's counterproductive.
The גיבורים who went to the עוטף on שמחת תורה were combat trained and did מלאכת קודש in fighting the enemy and saving many יהודים
A full time לומד תורה (l also have a son who does that) is on a very important תפקיד for עם ישראל
That's the main point of the post (as I understood it)
When you write 'full time lomdei torah' what does that mean? You know bein hazmanim is about 10 weeks. Add one day a week and many places don't do Friday or only half day Friday. So do the maths. Is that really 'full time'?
I mean what I wrote
ישיבת בין הזמנים
סדרים on Friday and שבת
And what proportion of those in 'full time learning' do that?
PS let's not mention that when they do, it's often for extra pay. Just like sheivet levi.
AFAIK, a very very large majority of בחורים
And a majority of אברכים
I disagree. It was a minority when I was in kollel.
Sounds like you have a whole bunch of unrelated complaints about chareidim, most inaccurate. For example "life is easy and convenient". I don't believe anybody without a very strong bias who would describe Israeli chareidi life as "easy and convenient".
Then you say "Learning while of course necessary for every one of us (including serving soldiers who often do learn in their occasional free moments) is not remotely equivalent to putting your life on the line." This is exactly the attitude I am trying to correct. First of all, not more than 5% are actually putting their lives on the line, but the only ones you have a problem with are the learners? But more importantly, you lose sight of the purpose of putting lives on the line in the first place. It is (or ought to be, as much as we can make it) a Holy War.
"That the learning community does not remotely recognise and praise those who do serve in the army in whatever role – is IMHO a lack of hakoras hatov."- This is completely false, they have shown and are showing hakaras hatov including on this blog.
Why is not 'easy and convenient'? No boss, no managers, only a fraction of kollelim have proper farhers, paternity leave is far more generous that in any workplace, 10 week vacation, and most of all, in learning after some experience, you can't actually get anything wrong, or at least if you do, nobody pulls you up on it. Sounds like easy and convenient to me. And the real nisyonos they have, like not rolling in late to seider or tefillah, many do not pass.
I'm very sad that's what you know about kollelim.
I know many אברכים and many כוללים, and that's not an accurate description of them.
What exactly is your rebuttal of my points? You know as well as I do in learning it's very difficult to actually get anything 'wrong".
I was responding to ענייני שמירת הזמנים וכדו'
AFAIK, getting something "wrong" is what every חברותא does every סדר, until they agree on the better מהלך
Indeed. But what is not 'easy and convenient' about that? Exactly my point. Both mehalchim are ok. Unlike in work, when you actually need to get things right.
You forgot. I was in kollel many years myself. I'm not some ba'al habbos commentator. I know exactly what goes on. A very low proportion meet this ideallistic picture painted to ba'al habbtim typically when soliciting funds. "Shach is a bit schver but time to move on." You try doing that with a task at work.
OK
So either you were in a very strange and weak כולל, or the situation in ארץ ישראל is very very diff.
The situation in EY is worse. There is a large contingent in kollel ONLY to avoid the army! A sort of reverse sheivet levi. Don't forget us good learners only see the higher standard kollelim. Which is a very small percetntage. You lot need to take off the rose colored spectacles.
If we can establish the importance of learning, not just here and there, the conversation runs a different tone. Because then we can talk to each other. Yes learning is important, very very important, but there are issues with the chareidi implementation. Can we work on fixing them? The answer is a lot more complicated once we examine the fine print post that basic chareidi assumption which will not change even if you disagree because they have plenty of sources and very tremendous talmidei chachamim to back up that assumption
One of the best presented counter-arguments on this issue I've seen these days.
I especially liked the point about only 5% serving in combat units, I don't know if that's true but if it is, Chareidim would never make it there anyway.
I happen to believe the main reason [not during war] that people complain about Chareidim not joining the army is for their resistance to being לאומי, to be a part of Israeli culture like the rest.
Agreed. As was always the problem with Jews btw. We never integrated into society. Our talmud keeps us too busy. Now, as it turns out, this includes secular Jewish societies as well...
הבדל שמים וארץ.
This comparison and the mentality driving it is mainly what drives our criticism of your hashkafa.
Is it though? If course there are differences (I'm not comparing Israel to Russia out the secular Israelis to a Russian czar) but the fact that we live for a very specific purpose and are not part of "society" is something a Russian would say 100 years ago, something a Frenchman would say 500 years ago, is something a Spanish gentleman would say 800 years ago, is something Haman said in his time. And the secular Israelis are saying now. I'm not comparing the people to each other but their complaint isn't the same? We are parasites and we are a burden to society and we take and don't give. Because we are not Babylonian or Persian or Hellenist or Spanish, Russian, German, French or American. And we are not secular either. I'd say we aren't 'Israelis' in the colloquial sense either. We are God's people and we do His will whether the outsiders get it or not. We live Israel because it is God's home. I would've hooked that in Israel they'd appreciate Godly service.
Point is that Chareidim are once again parasites like Jews have always been.
If one understands the importance of Torah, like I'm sure you do, Avraham, there is no problem with the chareidi attitude. But take out the goal and all that's left is the hollow parasites argument...
What do you hope to accomplish by this?
Telling shulman that his comparison shows a skewed mentality.
So, no desire to change minds? Just yell and wave hands?
You didn't answer the question. What do you hope to accomplish? shulman is one person. What about the blog proprietor? Me? Rabbenu Yonah, who proffered a definition of "hater of Hashem" that refers to those meticulous in observance but pained by those who talk like shulman? Are you a hater of Hashem too?
Why can't he answer to me separately?
I have a desire to protest a סילוף התורה. I agree with the blpg proprietor to an extent but shulman is saying the exact opposite. The blog said that learners are contributing to the jewish war effort. Shulman was implying that learners stand aloof from society jist like they did under the czar and his wars! Im not saying all chareidim agree with him but that is an attitude which pervades a portion of the society (a peleg rosh yeshiva said this openly by צוק איתן). The less mainstrean this attitude becomes the less animosity there will be towards charedim. Were already going in a positive direction but folks like shulman and the guy that called our martyrs "lowlives" really really dont help.
What is the proportion of combat to support personnel in a modern army? This Wiki article discusses the numbers for the American military from WW1 through today:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tooth-to-tail_ratio
When extrapolated to the entire population, certainly much less than 5% serve in a combat role, even here. Even when restricted to just the active military, it is a tiny fraction of the whole.
The vast, vast majority of any modern military are in support roles (and quite a few of those roles are pointless). Something I have pointed out to those who seethe with anger and resentment.
Which roles are pointless ?
If a role isn't combat or in support of combat, however broadly that word is defined, it is superfluous.
And if a policy is detrimental to same, it is worse than pointless.
And what exactly is a role that isn't in combat or support of combat? Pretty sure the army would define all of them as such.
Although this is not too relevant here, I wish to link to this edition of Hamayan from the Yom Kippur war. See the letters at the beginning
https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=29644#p=1&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=
An army needs maintenance in peace times for readiness in times of war. So training, health, weapons development, research into soldier motivation, organisational structure and techniques, officer and troop assessment etc etc are all necessary. I think the Israelis at the sharp end know what they need, certainly better than I and perhaps better than you.
The army is full of אבטלה סמויה
Your argument would be a lot stronger if you pointed out that 2000 chareidim just enlisted. Clearly, when it is viewed as necessary, chareidim enlist. End of argument.
I actually mentioned that!
So in a post claiming that Charedim are just as connected to the horrors of the situation as people whose children are fighting in Gaza, you repeatedly describe people who are angry at the Charedi lack of army service as "partners with Hamas."
I think that's called a self-defeating argument. As well as a truly disgusting one.
Looks like you didn't pay attention to the post. The whole post was addressing those who are angry at the Charedi lack of army service, and explaining why that is the wrong perspective. They were not described as "partners with Hamas", G-D forbid.
The "partners with Hamas" line was referring to those who are so filled with hatred, so sick in the head, that they make the entire war about their personal vendetta against the groups they hate, up to and including inventing convoluted fictitious motivations about the deeply-held beliefs of those groups. To those people I wished a רפואה שלימה.
I'm actually going to agree with this, in part. I don't think it's at all appropriate to label anyone as a partner to Hamas unless they're somehow actually a partner. It doesn't do anything but cheapen the horror of their savagery. Writing demagogic blog posts isn't that, however much I dislike said posts. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-importance-of-torah-study-vs/comment/43098546
Regarding this comment https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-real-reasons-why-charedim-dont/comment/43205436
She is arguing that we should draft bnei yeshivos *not* because there is an urgent need for soldiers to defend the country, but so that her kids could come home more often. That would be very nice for them and her, but is a much weaker than the argument that we actually need more soldiers for defense. And it is totally predicated on the assumption that the yeshiva students are currently doing nothing useful. Why not draft 40-something year old museum directors (and hundreds of thousands of others that are exempt for similar arbitrary reasons) so that her kids could come home more often?
That's a good point. But I prefer not to argue with a woman whose kids might well be fighting in Gaza for all I know. Anyhow, I got my hands full with the regular suspects as it is.
Good call. My response to her was (when my very close relative Joyous wasn't banned), thanks so much for your kids' service. They are fighting for the greatest cause and sanctifying God's name.
I condemn that line as well
Only a few sentences in that long screed actually proports to deal with the point. I don't expect your lackeys here to actually realise that, not bening trained in critical analysis of discussion papers. For example this complete bumph completely irrelevant to the point; "And even those who do not, still possess the attribute of Ahavas Yisrael, feel solidarity with the rest of the country, and are affected by the losses on a deep emotional level.". Gee that's nice. Deep emotional level my foot. The number of times I have heard that 'there was a Buddah at that festival' bunch of hedonists blah blah blah. Deeply effected by the losses. My foot. The only fear is that Israel will lose and Iran will blow the country to bits, which is a fear they chareidim will lose their lives. They couldn't care less about a few secular kibbutzim.
1) Many chareidim did not chose anything. They were born into the system. Ditto the soldiers.
2) The screed does not deal with the women who do not learn torah.
3) None of the screed deals with the numerous non-learners or part time learners or people that claim to be learners but in fact work.
4) None of that screed deals with the fact that there are plenty of other ways to assist the national effort.
5) You muddle up, in your usual unlearned style, children and wider family. The two are not remotely comparable and is telling of the lack of your self-awareness. Very few chareidim's actual sons and daughters are at risk of death. Wider family is not-comparable. A minute percentage of chareidim (if any( will be sitting shivah for their chareidi children killed in battle. I doubt the fact that a "mizrachi" "DL" cousin will be killed keeps any chareidi mother up at night.
But I am pleased that finally the 'we are sheivet levi' and the 'we are relying on torah protects' nonsense has been dropped.
"Oh my friends, my friends forgive me
That I live and you are gone
There's a grief that can't be spoken
There's a pain goes on and on"
The real proof for the deep emotional whatever chareidim have you claim, will be when the dust dies down. Right now, nobody knows whether chareidi effort is 75% good PR and only 25% genuine.
That's it for know.
Who are you ranting at? My goodness!!
He's a keyboard miluim'nik.
As Shulman points out, this is quite an incoherent rant.
But from the bit I can make out what you are saying: Just because you don't know anything about ahavas Yisrael doesn't mean others don't. About #5, by your standards only a very small percentage of any families are contributing to the war effort, because many more don't have sons in combat . And about your "doubt", just because you don't care about your relatives being killed doesn't mean others don't.