Clicked on this guy Kahns attempt at Torah. So his maskana is based on the fact that beis din doesn’t exercise coercion in some matters of Ishus, so somehow that supports not telling someone the Halacha. LOL good stuff.
This is not serious …right??? It’s so arrogant & ignorant …and small minded …and uninformed …and DANGEROUS.
We Yiddin lost the Bes HaMikdash & Eretz Yisrael over sinas chinam. This is an ugly “modern” example of an age-old internal Jewish problem. Please stop producing elitist, mean-spirited, mocking, self-aggrandizing, monolithic, philistine foolishness - this is not good for the Jewish people.
WHAT?! You disagree with my justification for female rabbis?! How DARE you??!! You misogynist, sexist, women-oppressing, patriarchal PIG!!! DESPICABLE!!!!!
Actually, I believe these young women, albeit they have been involved in limud Torah, are unlikely to be considered by themsleves or others to be talmidei chachamim. But many others, who have devoted much more time and effort are. In addition, the article belittles all MO talmidei chachamim.
As I write clearly, it is only the liberal MO so-called "Talmud scholars" I am belittling. The academic "Talmud scholars" and the ones who are deliberately corrupting Judaism. Not real Talmidei chachamim like Rabbi Herschel Schachter.
Were you around last year when Natan and his ilk were bemoaning the reversal of Roe v. Wade? He made three or four posts on the subject. There might not even be a next generation of Modox given their exuberant support of abortion.
I know I'm late to this "party," but wow. I've never understood how there exist people who seem to have learned at least a little Torah but still manage to display clearly horrendous middos which they'll inevitably claim is l'shem shamayim (for more examples, see the comments section at The Yeshiva World and several of the comments below). To display a photograph of real life young women and color on them and comment publicly on their tznios (you should avoid the cities their fathers live in), then launch an ugly, mean-spirited attack on the recently-deceased Rav Kahn Z"L and many others (do you think his bereaved family or the other targets of this piece would find your blog light-hearted satire?), and then spend the rest of the piece mocking other's people writings is low enough, but to then have the gall to comment about the challenges of being mechanech one's children? Given the fact that the blogger claims women shouldn't learn Torah because it won't give them time to make kugel but implies they CAN work in order to support their kollel husbands, seemingly unaware of the obvious contradiction there, I don't expect them to be cognizant of all the unintentional irony, ignorance, and gaivah in their post , but I hope everyone else sees it for the filth it is. He loudly mocks the writings of these female scholars, but anyone who reads their work and then reads this shtus shouldn't have any doubt as to which actually reflects a spirit of Torah and yiras shamayim.
Hi, you don't seem to be aware that a strong disease demands a strong medicine. These "scholars" have no compunction about corrupting our holy Mesorah, this treatment is much better than they deserve. See my more serious follow up post about feminism if you don't like satire.
This "strong disease" line is so compelling, you shouldn't waste it on someone like me; save it for Yom Kippur, maybe even the Beis Din shel Maalah. I'm not sure I ever heard that phrase before, but wish I did, as I had held back significantly in my first response, assuming that some of your readers might know you personally or be related to you. I already predicted I'd hear about how it's all l'shem Shamayim (hahahahahah) but thanks for clarifying that it's at least MEANT to be satire. While that doesn't account for the lack of quality humor or how every post features the exact same shtick, it does explain that the unintentional irony (I'm going to defend the Mesorah by flouting halacha with every word and also draw in other "frum" Jews seeking a "kosher" way to indulge their most vile personality traits) is actually intentional! Your behavior and your views are simply meant to be parody, which makes a lot more sense.
You know, it's ironic, because based on your comments, I think you would be a very good writer for Irrationalist Modoxism. Your biting sarcasm, your righteous indignation, your invocation of Jewish values, you have it all down pat. The only problem is that you seem to be saying that the very behavior you are engaging in here is an indulgence in your most vile personality traits, and I wouldn't want to encourage you to further indulge your most vile personality traits.
Wow, Joe. You're so sharp and funny. You must moonlight on SNL or something. I see that you managed to throw in tons of those Hebrew and Yiddish words. So now I'm reassured that you're really devout too. It's a shame you couldn't manage to slip in kugel and gefilte fish. Then I would have really been floored.
So glad you were impressed. I didn't know any of them, but I used google translate. Thanks for your substantive reply. It actually means a lot coming from a random anonymous fan of a random anonymous blogger.
Aw, kugel! Thanks for the hannukah gelt. Sorry, can't schmooze now. Gotta go on golem mode for the night. Need to be up early tomorrow to earn those shekels!
HAHAHAH. You think I artificially inserted yiddish and hebrew words in order to sound more something or other and so now you are doing the same but in a much more exaggerated way! I'm floored by the way you've highlighted---or should I say exposed---my own inauthenticity. I would cower in shame if it wasn't so friggin' hilarious. And you thought _I_ was sharp and funny!
Oops, I take that back. I reread your first comment carefully and I see now that you actually did manage to get kugel in there! But you still missed out gefilte fish. Not to mention cholent. So I'm still not getting that Genuine Frum Speaker™ impression.
This poster seems to think that the only valid Limmud HaTorah is only when learning a Tosfos, done in his way and style. Actually Torah is much deeper and broader than one style. vchu'
Yeah, and there is the Modox style (the one about "A Scary Place: Jewish Magic in the Roman Bathhouse"), which is perfectly attuned to women, and which is why I believe the Modox are right about appointing Maharats and Rabbahs.
All your articles/posts or whatever you call them all have the same theme. You briefly preface that you are not generalizing about all DL or modern orthodox but you spend 99% of the rest of your article demonizing most of modern orthodoxy. All written with righteous indignation.
I recommend reading your posts/articles if someone can’t fall asleep but doesn’t want to pop a sleeping pill.
“Who is going to cook, bake, clean, do the laundry, take care of the children, nurse the baby, change the diapers, make Shabbos1 - if the wife/mother is out all day and night at the kollelet??? “
Don’t Charedi women work and make a parnassa for their husbands in kollel?
Okay. So you are perplexed that a woman will be struggling with a R’ Akiva Eiger, but you are not so perplexed that a woman will be doing what men have done for thousands of years - provide sustenance for their family “by the sweat of their brow” - while having babies, taking care of the kids, cooking, cleaning, doing the housework, etc.?
Woman have worked for thousands of years also- and much harder than they do now- just not outside the home.
Working outside the home is not ideal, but if the wife feels it is worth it to support her husband in learning, then perhaps the sacrifice is worth it.
Basically, when the Rambam wrote that the problem of learning torah for women is because they will bring the dvarim to divrei havai, this was another example of the great left-wing Maimonides foreseeing way ahead of his times - that anybody can decide to be a women...
"Sami Gubin from Dallas focused on the symbolism in the Mishkan and the application of those symbols as a paradigm for the optimal Jewish experience."
Are you not aware that many rishonim and acharonim do the same? The torah is eternal and speaks to every generation. If you can't find clear specific messages in our day in the hundreds of pesukim dealing with the mishkan you have missed the point of learning torah.
If your "Talmud department" is primarily focusing on stuff like that, and the lowest quality stuff worthy of dime-store motivational speakers or worse...well then, that's exactly my point.
"There are relevant academic analyses that add meaning
to the spiritual objects that are used to worship God. This
essentially is the framework in which we should properly serve
Hashem and live out our Jewish lives – A moderated approach
between religiosity and secularism; the modern orthodox
lifestyle14
14 I believe that Modern Orthodoxy is a balanced approach toward tradition
and secular subjects, and combining the two leads one to have a fulfilling
religious experience. We see that this synthesis is possible through
experimenting with it using the text of the Mishkan"
Yup, some real serious Gemara learning here. As I said, these women should definitely serve as Modern Orthodox rabbis, given their standard of what they consider "Gemara".
What have you got against 'Jewish magic in the Roman Bathhouse' exactly? You were telling me the other day that all that type of material in gemorroh is emes l'emito, torah sh'pal peh, and there is no scientific evidence whatsoever against it.
Dunno about bathhouses but I find the mikvah pretty terrifying to be honest. Lots of overweight unhealthy specimens. Lots of chatting, ignoring chazal. Lots of fathers and their children together ignoring chazal. Lots of smartphones on show ignoring chazal. Lots of pre-shacharis dipping at 11am. Ignoring zemanei tefillah. Many cases of tovel v'sheretz b'yodoh, but us chareidim are very selective in our holiness. Me, I stick to thr basics, twice a year and that''s quite enough of all that fake virtue signalling kedusha v'taharah.
Turning to some lomdus, it's quite clear chazal did not hold of daily dipping. One of the reasons for tevilas ezra is that holy chareidim should not be with their wives every night like chickens. But if they go every day, in any event, that reason will not work. It's no deterrent. Think about it.
Since when is going on erev shabbos against tevilas ezra? Once week aint that bad.
And by the way, the main reason to go every day is for being with ones wife the night before but not to make it obvious why, so they go every day. One might say that defeats the whole purpose but when choosing to abolish it because of embarrassment or to go every day and at least this way torah is learnt in purity, Chasidim hold this way is better. You can argue on this but you're not the first to think about this.
Great post! I once saw a "Torah" journal put out by a midreshet for women rabbis, maybe it was Lindenbaum, I don't recall, and it was filled with the funniest Purim Torah I've ever seen in my life! One common theme was that every "teshuva" was extremely obvious exactly where it would be going just by reading the question without even reading any of the actual teshuva! Chazal knew exactly what they were saying when they said כל המלמד בתו תורה כאילו מלדה תפלות!
After reading the article, one would indeed conclude that MO is secular. After all, female MO rabbis must be the cornerstone of MO.
Or are MO female rabbis, and MO women studying to be rabbis it but a fringe group that mainstream MO organizations have shunned and reguse to tecognize?!
For comparison, perhaps Happy can supply the necessary statistics and facts.
Which major/mainstream MO rabbinic organizations refuse to give women semichah and name the major MO rabbinic groups that do?
What is the total number of MO yeshivot/seminaries in the US and how many ordain women?
What is the total number of students in MO yeshivot that refuse to ordain women and the total number of women in yeshivot that do?
What is the total number of MO rabbanim and how many are female MO rabbis?
What is the total number of semichot since 2000 and how many were women?
I don't know the answer to all of these questions, but the OU (still the largest association that US MO synagogues are likely to be affiliated with) refused to recognize women's semikha and kicks out community that has clergy from Maharat, and I'm pretty sure that the only self-identified MO seminary in the US that gives semikha to women is Yeshivat Maharat. Even if Maharat and YCT are taken as one organization, YU RIETS (which does not ordain women) is still the largest MO yeshiva in the US by far.
While this isn't related to the other user's questions, there are a couple of things that I feel the need to fact check you on:
There's a point where you presented three articles that you said would be representative of an MO approach, but only one of them was from an MO institution (Bar-Ilan). JTS is Conservative, and the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor writer that you identify (Yaron Eliav) forsook Orthodox Judaism (I don't know which stream he came from) in favor of absolute secularism at the age of 20, before receiving his degrees from secular colleges.
As far as I can tell, Moshe Kahn was never affiliated with YCT; he seems to be a graduate of YU RIETS who went on to become a professor of YU, despite the article framing it as his writing is representative of YCT.
Clicked on this guy Kahns attempt at Torah. So his maskana is based on the fact that beis din doesn’t exercise coercion in some matters of Ishus, so somehow that supports not telling someone the Halacha. LOL good stuff.
This is not serious …right??? It’s so arrogant & ignorant …and small minded …and uninformed …and DANGEROUS.
We Yiddin lost the Bes HaMikdash & Eretz Yisrael over sinas chinam. This is an ugly “modern” example of an age-old internal Jewish problem. Please stop producing elitist, mean-spirited, mocking, self-aggrandizing, monolithic, philistine foolishness - this is not good for the Jewish people.
WHAT?! You disagree with my justification for female rabbis?! How DARE you??!! You misogynist, sexist, women-oppressing, patriarchal PIG!!! DESPICABLE!!!!!
Wow בזיון תלמידי חכמים in it's highest form
Which T”C do you refer to? There aren’t any referenced in the post…
Miriam probably means the talmidei chachamim in the top picture...
And it's extremely rude to use the term "she" when referencing someone for the first time, especially one who is present.
I apologize, edited.
Actually, I believe these young women, albeit they have been involved in limud Torah, are unlikely to be considered by themsleves or others to be talmidei chachamim. But many others, who have devoted much more time and effort are. In addition, the article belittles all MO talmidei chachamim.
As I write clearly, it is only the liberal MO so-called "Talmud scholars" I am belittling. The academic "Talmud scholars" and the ones who are deliberately corrupting Judaism. Not real Talmidei chachamim like Rabbi Herschel Schachter.
In that case, you must understand that 99% of MO are the secularists that we are writing about. Is that accurate?
Actually, my understanding is that referencing an entire group without specifying a particular individual is considered more serious.
Were you around last year when Natan and his ilk were bemoaning the reversal of Roe v. Wade? He made three or four posts on the subject. There might not even be a next generation of Modox given their exuberant support of abortion.
I know I'm late to this "party," but wow. I've never understood how there exist people who seem to have learned at least a little Torah but still manage to display clearly horrendous middos which they'll inevitably claim is l'shem shamayim (for more examples, see the comments section at The Yeshiva World and several of the comments below). To display a photograph of real life young women and color on them and comment publicly on their tznios (you should avoid the cities their fathers live in), then launch an ugly, mean-spirited attack on the recently-deceased Rav Kahn Z"L and many others (do you think his bereaved family or the other targets of this piece would find your blog light-hearted satire?), and then spend the rest of the piece mocking other's people writings is low enough, but to then have the gall to comment about the challenges of being mechanech one's children? Given the fact that the blogger claims women shouldn't learn Torah because it won't give them time to make kugel but implies they CAN work in order to support their kollel husbands, seemingly unaware of the obvious contradiction there, I don't expect them to be cognizant of all the unintentional irony, ignorance, and gaivah in their post , but I hope everyone else sees it for the filth it is. He loudly mocks the writings of these female scholars, but anyone who reads their work and then reads this shtus shouldn't have any doubt as to which actually reflects a spirit of Torah and yiras shamayim.
Hi, you don't seem to be aware that a strong disease demands a strong medicine. These "scholars" have no compunction about corrupting our holy Mesorah, this treatment is much better than they deserve. See my more serious follow up post about feminism if you don't like satire.
This "strong disease" line is so compelling, you shouldn't waste it on someone like me; save it for Yom Kippur, maybe even the Beis Din shel Maalah. I'm not sure I ever heard that phrase before, but wish I did, as I had held back significantly in my first response, assuming that some of your readers might know you personally or be related to you. I already predicted I'd hear about how it's all l'shem Shamayim (hahahahahah) but thanks for clarifying that it's at least MEANT to be satire. While that doesn't account for the lack of quality humor or how every post features the exact same shtick, it does explain that the unintentional irony (I'm going to defend the Mesorah by flouting halacha with every word and also draw in other "frum" Jews seeking a "kosher" way to indulge their most vile personality traits) is actually intentional! Your behavior and your views are simply meant to be parody, which makes a lot more sense.
You know, it's ironic, because based on your comments, I think you would be a very good writer for Irrationalist Modoxism. Your biting sarcasm, your righteous indignation, your invocation of Jewish values, you have it all down pat. The only problem is that you seem to be saying that the very behavior you are engaging in here is an indulgence in your most vile personality traits, and I wouldn't want to encourage you to further indulge your most vile personality traits.
Wow, Joe. You're so sharp and funny. You must moonlight on SNL or something. I see that you managed to throw in tons of those Hebrew and Yiddish words. So now I'm reassured that you're really devout too. It's a shame you couldn't manage to slip in kugel and gefilte fish. Then I would have really been floored.
So glad you were impressed. I didn't know any of them, but I used google translate. Thanks for your substantive reply. It actually means a lot coming from a random anonymous fan of a random anonymous blogger.
Aw, kugel! Thanks for the hannukah gelt. Sorry, can't schmooze now. Gotta go on golem mode for the night. Need to be up early tomorrow to earn those shekels!
HAHAHAH. You think I artificially inserted yiddish and hebrew words in order to sound more something or other and so now you are doing the same but in a much more exaggerated way! I'm floored by the way you've highlighted---or should I say exposed---my own inauthenticity. I would cower in shame if it wasn't so friggin' hilarious. And you thought _I_ was sharp and funny!
Oops, I take that back. I reread your first comment carefully and I see now that you actually did manage to get kugel in there! But you still missed out gefilte fish. Not to mention cholent. So I'm still not getting that Genuine Frum Speaker™ impression.
Hi Joe, I know it's a busy night with the Superbowl and all, but when you have a chance, be sure to check out this post:
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-halakhic-endorsement-of-coed-schools
I'm sure you'll enjoy the brilliant scholarship.
This poster seems to think that the only valid Limmud HaTorah is only when learning a Tosfos, done in his way and style. Actually Torah is much deeper and broader than one style. vchu'
Yeah, and there is the Modox style (the one about "A Scary Place: Jewish Magic in the Roman Bathhouse"), which is perfectly attuned to women, and which is why I believe the Modox are right about appointing Maharats and Rabbahs.
All your articles/posts or whatever you call them all have the same theme. You briefly preface that you are not generalizing about all DL or modern orthodox but you spend 99% of the rest of your article demonizing most of modern orthodoxy. All written with righteous indignation.
I recommend reading your posts/articles if someone can’t fall asleep but doesn’t want to pop a sleeping pill.
“Who is going to cook, bake, clean, do the laundry, take care of the children, nurse the baby, change the diapers, make Shabbos1 - if the wife/mother is out all day and night at the kollelet??? “
Don’t Charedi women work and make a parnassa for their husbands in kollel?
See footnote
Okay. So you are perplexed that a woman will be struggling with a R’ Akiva Eiger, but you are not so perplexed that a woman will be doing what men have done for thousands of years - provide sustenance for their family “by the sweat of their brow” - while having babies, taking care of the kids, cooking, cleaning, doing the housework, etc.?
Woman have worked for thousands of years also- and much harder than they do now- just not outside the home.
Working outside the home is not ideal, but if the wife feels it is worth it to support her husband in learning, then perhaps the sacrifice is worth it.
Uh, until fairly recently, (ie for thousands of years) most men have also worked outside the home.
Rabbi Moshe Kahn just passed a way a few weeks ago. Even if you disagree with him it would probably be most respectful to hold off on mocking him now.
Basically, when the Rambam wrote that the problem of learning torah for women is because they will bring the dvarim to divrei havai, this was another example of the great left-wing Maimonides foreseeing way ahead of his times - that anybody can decide to be a women...
"Sami Gubin from Dallas focused on the symbolism in the Mishkan and the application of those symbols as a paradigm for the optimal Jewish experience."
Are you not aware that many rishonim and acharonim do the same? The torah is eternal and speaks to every generation. If you can't find clear specific messages in our day in the hundreds of pesukim dealing with the mishkan you have missed the point of learning torah.
If your "Talmud department" is primarily focusing on stuff like that, and the lowest quality stuff worthy of dime-store motivational speakers or worse...well then, that's exactly my point.
"There are relevant academic analyses that add meaning
to the spiritual objects that are used to worship God. This
essentially is the framework in which we should properly serve
Hashem and live out our Jewish lives – A moderated approach
between religiosity and secularism; the modern orthodox
lifestyle14
14 I believe that Modern Orthodoxy is a balanced approach toward tradition
and secular subjects, and combining the two leads one to have a fulfilling
religious experience. We see that this synthesis is possible through
experimenting with it using the text of the Mishkan"
Yup, some real serious Gemara learning here. As I said, these women should definitely serve as Modern Orthodox rabbis, given their standard of what they consider "Gemara".
What have you got against 'Jewish magic in the Roman Bathhouse' exactly? You were telling me the other day that all that type of material in gemorroh is emes l'emito, torah sh'pal peh, and there is no scientific evidence whatsoever against it.
Scary place isn't it? 😂😂😂
Dunno about bathhouses but I find the mikvah pretty terrifying to be honest. Lots of overweight unhealthy specimens. Lots of chatting, ignoring chazal. Lots of fathers and their children together ignoring chazal. Lots of smartphones on show ignoring chazal. Lots of pre-shacharis dipping at 11am. Ignoring zemanei tefillah. Many cases of tovel v'sheretz b'yodoh, but us chareidim are very selective in our holiness. Me, I stick to thr basics, twice a year and that''s quite enough of all that fake virtue signalling kedusha v'taharah.
Turning to some lomdus, it's quite clear chazal did not hold of daily dipping. One of the reasons for tevilas ezra is that holy chareidim should not be with their wives every night like chickens. But if they go every day, in any event, that reason will not work. It's no deterrent. Think about it.
"us chareidim"
You're Chareidi??
I don't know why you assume that all chareidim are chassidish. Most Chareidim that I know do not go to the mikvah every day. Many go twice a year.
Nah. Real yeshivish chareidim go at least every erev shabbos. Chassidish or not. You probably wear a blue shirt on occasion to.
Since when is going on erev shabbos against tevilas ezra? Once week aint that bad.
And by the way, the main reason to go every day is for being with ones wife the night before but not to make it obvious why, so they go every day. One might say that defeats the whole purpose but when choosing to abolish it because of embarrassment or to go every day and at least this way torah is learnt in purity, Chasidim hold this way is better. You can argue on this but you're not the first to think about this.
Where does it say not to chat in a בית המרחץ?
sefer chasidim but thats not chazal
Great post! I once saw a "Torah" journal put out by a midreshet for women rabbis, maybe it was Lindenbaum, I don't recall, and it was filled with the funniest Purim Torah I've ever seen in my life! One common theme was that every "teshuva" was extremely obvious exactly where it would be going just by reading the question without even reading any of the actual teshuva! Chazal knew exactly what they were saying when they said כל המלמד בתו תורה כאילו מלדה תפלות!
After reading the article, one would indeed conclude that MO is secular. After all, female MO rabbis must be the cornerstone of MO.
Or are MO female rabbis, and MO women studying to be rabbis it but a fringe group that mainstream MO organizations have shunned and reguse to tecognize?!
For comparison, perhaps Happy can supply the necessary statistics and facts.
Which major/mainstream MO rabbinic organizations refuse to give women semichah and name the major MO rabbinic groups that do?
What is the total number of MO yeshivot/seminaries in the US and how many ordain women?
What is the total number of students in MO yeshivot that refuse to ordain women and the total number of women in yeshivot that do?
What is the total number of MO rabbanim and how many are female MO rabbis?
What is the total number of semichot since 2000 and how many were women?
You tell me the answer to all these questions. I would be very happy if most MO were against giving women semicha and teaching them Gemara.
I don't know the answer to all of these questions, but the OU (still the largest association that US MO synagogues are likely to be affiliated with) refused to recognize women's semikha and kicks out community that has clergy from Maharat, and I'm pretty sure that the only self-identified MO seminary in the US that gives semikha to women is Yeshivat Maharat. Even if Maharat and YCT are taken as one organization, YU RIETS (which does not ordain women) is still the largest MO yeshiva in the US by far.
While this isn't related to the other user's questions, there are a couple of things that I feel the need to fact check you on:
There's a point where you presented three articles that you said would be representative of an MO approach, but only one of them was from an MO institution (Bar-Ilan). JTS is Conservative, and the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor writer that you identify (Yaron Eliav) forsook Orthodox Judaism (I don't know which stream he came from) in favor of absolute secularism at the age of 20, before receiving his degrees from secular colleges.
As far as I can tell, Moshe Kahn was never affiliated with YCT; he seems to be a graduate of YU RIETS who went on to become a professor of YU, despite the article framing it as his writing is representative of YCT.
It is actually more serious to refer to an entire group without specifying an individual.
WADR, I don't think that we should treat this shigaon as a joke.
These people are misleading many ignorant yidden, who don't know any better.
IYH I will have a more serious post about MO feminism soon, prob next week.
Yasher Koach!