One can acknowledge that learning Torah produces a positive metaphysical effect on the world, but why does that mean one can accept money for his service? Prayer, one can argue, has a more direct effect on events, and yet no one accepts money for praying. We would think it very odd, and we would actually think of it as a disgrace to the prayer, if someone did.
And on that note, the way one learns affects the metaphysical benefit of learning in the world. If it is wrong for one to accept money to learn, then who is to say that the learning has much of a metaphysical benefit, if any at all? Perhaps, as per the Rambam, it is actually a disgrace to the learning (the same way it would be to accept money to pray), thus negating the benefit.
The post was not about accepting money for learning. The post was about the benefit to society that full-time learners provide.
The Halacha is not like the Rambam, I don't know why people continually bring it up into these discussions (actually, that is not true. I do know why people bring it up). Not only do the later poskim disagree with the Rambam, they make it clear that the minhag of Klal Yisroel is not to paskn like the Rambam.
Indeed, in those places that did accept the Rambam's psak, knowledge of Torah was much lower than in other places.
And the difference between prayer and learning should be so obvious as to make us wonder what the motivations of the questioner are. A person can pray without money, and it would be disgusting to take money for prayer. Taking money for learning is similarly disgusting. Someone who is paid per daf, or per hour, is making a commodity out of Torah, and that is wrong. The issue is being supported in order to devote a life to learning. It is virtually impossible to devote a life to learning without outside support. A person may, and is encouraged by the Poskim to, take such support to be able to continue learning full-time. If he feels that he is not contributing anything to society, let him read the above article.
"The issue is being supported in order to devote a life to learning."
In practice, some kollelim offer more money for learning in the evening. Some offer more money for learning shabbos and erev shabbos. Some deduct money for not turning up too many times or late too many times. Some pay more for better farher results.
That does not quite 'shtim' with the well trodden loophole. As you would appreciate if you analysed it objectively. It is quite literally being paid to learn more. Not 'general support to devote a life to learning'.
I guarantee you if a Modox rabbi played so fast and hard with what already is a bdi eved situation (everybody agrees ideally payment and torah should be kept apart like milk and meat), you would be all over it as not proper behaviour. But whatever chareidim want, somehow it can be justified. They just never extend the same privilge to any other group.
More money for Friday and night Seder is an extension of the support for learning. If not for that Kollel check (cheque), he would tutor a child or do something else to bring in income.
And your 'already bdieved situation' exists in your own mind. The Poskim do not think so. See the Tashbatz inside where he argues on the Rambam.
"is an extension of the support for learning". Followed by "he would tutor a child or do something else to bring in income."
Typical vague unclear words followed by a non-sequitur. None of that is the same as the concept of "The issue is being supported in order to devote a life to learning". It's just throwing words together, with no proper clear legal analysis. And you didn't deal with the point of extra pay for those taking tests and/or scoring well in them.
And again, if some Modox Rabbi would rely on one posek, to pasken like a bdi eved in the remoh, in respect of a completely novel concept like mass support for everybody, contrary to previous minhag and a 30 year old novelty, completely k'negged everything chazal say about linking torah to money, for something for their own Modox community (say women wearing pants, kol isha, whatever), you would be all over it as not proper halochoh. But charedim, when they want to, find plenty of sources to support everything they do, however dodgy. You can find a source for anything, should you wish.
Well, you have better inform all those organisations and kollelim that offer money for farhers what a perversion it is. Because they are 'all endorsed by leading gedolim'.
Ah, I see below that this has opened a can of worms. But of course dirshu is run by a 'groisse gevir' and in chareidiland, gevirim and their money will get a hetter for everything they like and get away with evertthing they like (Headlines and Dovid Lichtenstein is not in cheirem multiple time by now for exactly the same reason). rabbonim that stood up to gevirim now belong to the history books...... but at the same time charediland disdains money like sheivet levi......and that is one of the great paradoxes of life, just like yediah/bechira.
And no, the "sechar batoloh" loophole falls flat on its face when an avreich leaves one kollel for one that pays more. Unless you make the ridiculously weak argument that on the day he starts the new kollel, he could also have found a better paid job. As previously advised, if a Modox rabbi had come up with all these arguement, charediland would flat our condemen it as a mockery of halochoh. But, no human being can see past their own biases, and when money is involved (the same for mateh akum etc..... Ki hashoched vchuluh.......
What's wrong with incentivizing learning and accountability? Anyway, many Gedolim encouraged this over the years. While starting with the Klausenberger Rebbe, Rav Shach was into it from what I hear, and lately I haven't seen any Gadol make any such comment about Dirshu ect.
It can't be "all poskim since the Rambam' because mass kollel for all only became fashionable 20 or so years ago. Before that since say the 1940s kollel was for a select few. And much prior to that kollellim didn't exist at all.
So don't try and claim "all poskim since the Rambam' permit are talking about mass kollel for all
beautifully articulated. i hope we get to hear more from you in the future!
the reason this is basically the only yeshivish blog that tackles the issues in a non-divrei torah manner (such as a wandering jew which i highly recommend) is because one simply cannot express Torah to an outsider. they don't get and probably never will unless they are willing to put a few years into soaking up chareidi/yeshivish/torahdike ideology. there is not much we can say to them as outsiders. kudos to this blog, and to this article for trying, and for this article for being explicit about this point. its like trying to explain how "mesorah" means more than "tradition" to someone completely secular.
Very nice. You left out one important aspect - the sociological, economic, and communal benefits which have been proven over and over again during the last generation throughout North America. Communities that have invested in good Yeshivos and Kollelim have become a magnet for young families looking for a place to settle. Passaic, New Jersey, is a good example of a morbid and decaying modern Orthodox community that was revitalized by their Yeshiva, and there are many other examples of this phenomenon. It is clear that ultimately only Torah centers strengthen a Jewish community.
that wasn't his point. his point was to show added value, which it does. torah is the center of a jewish non-secular community and where the is a yeshiva or a torahdike shul there tends to be a stronger comunity. is that not another benefit?
Yes. But mentioned economic and sociological benefits of just having more communities. Maybe he meant like you said. If so i definetly agree. I have a community kollel in givat shmuel which is an offshoot of הר המור and it definetly adds.
I am coming in a bit late here. I don't think it's about making new ones but strengthening the existing ones. This is very true in the US. I hear from 50 year olds in Chicago and Toronto that the Kollel completely changed the community. I hear the same about other communities as well. There are dying communities trying all sorts of tactics that aren't working to keep the place going, and the most successful is bringing in a Kollel. It is important to stress that unlike Israel, you can't just move over to the next hill, there is much less infrastructure and it can be a hundred km from the next Jewish town.
"Torah Scholars" is not an accurate translation of "Rabbonon". Throughout the talmud and midroshim, Rabbonon refers to who we would refer to as 'Rabbonim' of shuls, communities etc. That is absolutely clear from the contexts.
Words mean things, you know. Not just what you want them to mean to fit an agenda.
PS When kollel is a way of life for all self-respecting chareidim, how exactly do we know who in kollel can learn, cannot learn or how well they can learn? You haven't dealt with that point. Many kollelim have no farher system, no oversight whatsoever. Nothing.
Leaders and manhigim. Asmechinu rabbobon'' 'gozru bei rabbonon' 'atruchuh rabbonon' 'shoru leih rabbonon' and of course the rabonnon of the mishnah (as an aside go and see how many 'benei torah' can explain to you precisely who the rabbonon of the mishnah are)
So you didn't mean Rabbonim of Shuls, but 'leaders and Manhigim'.
And you know that because those leaders and manhigim are the type to אסמכינהו רבנן. Who proved that? The simple explanation of all of the quotes of yours is 'scholars'. Rabanan, all over the place, means scholars - people who know Torah.
Asmechinu rabbobon'' 'gozru bei rabbonon' 'atruchuh rabbonon' 'shoru leih rabbonon'
I wrote leaders and manhigim elsewhere in the thread on this topic Nitpick over all the minor points all you like to try and obfuscate. Read all my posts on this matter.
Indeed they do. But the discussion is not what scholars do. The discussion is about the specific form of 'scholar' referred to as 'rabbonon' in the talmud. And it is clear from numerous sources that you have avoided analysing that it does not refer to people learning b'chavrusoh. Look at all my points on this topic.
test, the only response to you right now is "...the only way a person could appreciate the learning of a Talmid Chacham is to become a Talmid Chacham" i'm sorry your an outsider. you will never get it:(
'Asmechinu rabbobon'' 'gozru bei rabbonon' 'atruchuh rabbonon' 'shoru leih rabbonon' etc. Are you telling me that every yeshivah student made gezeiris and droshos? And of course the 'rabbonon' of the mishnayos is not 'talmidim in the yeshivah'. And, leshitoscho, who says 'talmidim in the yeshivah' were not leaders of their own little villages, anyway. They didn't have 'yeshivos' or kollelim like we have (surprising, I know). I daresay you will find the odd mekor but that is not common use of the word.
But I know in yeshivaland you can argue anything for ever to support any view, so I am not going to spend time on this. Go learn some Aramaic.
Here we go. Who said rabbonim don't run to shiurim on shabbos? When they go to shiurim from their superiors they are obviously then acting us talmidim with worn out clothes.
Thank you for proving my point that anybody can argue anything in yeshivaland.
But the word 'rabbonon' in Amaraic is the same as 'Rabbi' or 'Rav' in Hebrew which has never been used to refer to stam torah scholars. As I said, words mean things.
This is getting tiresome. Even from context it is referring to those rabbonon in a position to issue pesokim. Ie not stam torah learners. I believe rashi says that in sanhedrin like the yerushalmi quoted above to but i don't have the ability to look it up right now .
Divorce words from their meaning, divorce words from their context, just typical yeshivish kvetching.
its so annoying to talk to a one-sided person. you have a point and you look to find your point everywhere. you're not listening or responding. you are looking to make your point. and as such, there is no point in engaging with you. thx rkz for trying but you'll never get anywhere
Maybe I’m misunderstanding something.
One can acknowledge that learning Torah produces a positive metaphysical effect on the world, but why does that mean one can accept money for his service? Prayer, one can argue, has a more direct effect on events, and yet no one accepts money for praying. We would think it very odd, and we would actually think of it as a disgrace to the prayer, if someone did.
And on that note, the way one learns affects the metaphysical benefit of learning in the world. If it is wrong for one to accept money to learn, then who is to say that the learning has much of a metaphysical benefit, if any at all? Perhaps, as per the Rambam, it is actually a disgrace to the learning (the same way it would be to accept money to pray), thus negating the benefit.
The post was not about accepting money for learning. The post was about the benefit to society that full-time learners provide.
The Halacha is not like the Rambam, I don't know why people continually bring it up into these discussions (actually, that is not true. I do know why people bring it up). Not only do the later poskim disagree with the Rambam, they make it clear that the minhag of Klal Yisroel is not to paskn like the Rambam.
Indeed, in those places that did accept the Rambam's psak, knowledge of Torah was much lower than in other places.
And the difference between prayer and learning should be so obvious as to make us wonder what the motivations of the questioner are. A person can pray without money, and it would be disgusting to take money for prayer. Taking money for learning is similarly disgusting. Someone who is paid per daf, or per hour, is making a commodity out of Torah, and that is wrong. The issue is being supported in order to devote a life to learning. It is virtually impossible to devote a life to learning without outside support. A person may, and is encouraged by the Poskim to, take such support to be able to continue learning full-time. If he feels that he is not contributing anything to society, let him read the above article.
"The issue is being supported in order to devote a life to learning."
In practice, some kollelim offer more money for learning in the evening. Some offer more money for learning shabbos and erev shabbos. Some deduct money for not turning up too many times or late too many times. Some pay more for better farher results.
That does not quite 'shtim' with the well trodden loophole. As you would appreciate if you analysed it objectively. It is quite literally being paid to learn more. Not 'general support to devote a life to learning'.
I guarantee you if a Modox rabbi played so fast and hard with what already is a bdi eved situation (everybody agrees ideally payment and torah should be kept apart like milk and meat), you would be all over it as not proper behaviour. But whatever chareidim want, somehow it can be justified. They just never extend the same privilge to any other group.
More money for Friday and night Seder is an extension of the support for learning. If not for that Kollel check (cheque), he would tutor a child or do something else to bring in income.
And your 'already bdieved situation' exists in your own mind. The Poskim do not think so. See the Tashbatz inside where he argues on the Rambam.
"is an extension of the support for learning". Followed by "he would tutor a child or do something else to bring in income."
Typical vague unclear words followed by a non-sequitur. None of that is the same as the concept of "The issue is being supported in order to devote a life to learning". It's just throwing words together, with no proper clear legal analysis. And you didn't deal with the point of extra pay for those taking tests and/or scoring well in them.
And again, if some Modox Rabbi would rely on one posek, to pasken like a bdi eved in the remoh, in respect of a completely novel concept like mass support for everybody, contrary to previous minhag and a 30 year old novelty, completely k'negged everything chazal say about linking torah to money, for something for their own Modox community (say women wearing pants, kol isha, whatever), you would be all over it as not proper halochoh. But charedim, when they want to, find plenty of sources to support everything they do, however dodgy. You can find a source for anything, should you wish.
1. It's not one Posek, it's virtually all Poskim post-Rambam.
2. It's not bedi'eved in the Rema, it's lechatchila. Unless someone has other sources of funding.
3. The sources are clear that the minhag was not like the Rambam.
But besides that, well done.
And regarding the money for tests, I agree that it is wrong and a perversion of the Kollel system.
Well, you have better inform all those organisations and kollelim that offer money for farhers what a perversion it is. Because they are 'all endorsed by leading gedolim'.
Ah, I see below that this has opened a can of worms. But of course dirshu is run by a 'groisse gevir' and in chareidiland, gevirim and their money will get a hetter for everything they like and get away with evertthing they like (Headlines and Dovid Lichtenstein is not in cheirem multiple time by now for exactly the same reason). rabbonim that stood up to gevirim now belong to the history books...... but at the same time charediland disdains money like sheivet levi......and that is one of the great paradoxes of life, just like yediah/bechira.
And no, the "sechar batoloh" loophole falls flat on its face when an avreich leaves one kollel for one that pays more. Unless you make the ridiculously weak argument that on the day he starts the new kollel, he could also have found a better paid job. As previously advised, if a Modox rabbi had come up with all these arguement, charediland would flat our condemen it as a mockery of halochoh. But, no human being can see past their own biases, and when money is involved (the same for mateh akum etc..... Ki hashoched vchuluh.......
What's wrong with incentivizing learning and accountability? Anyway, many Gedolim encouraged this over the years. While starting with the Klausenberger Rebbe, Rav Shach was into it from what I hear, and lately I haven't seen any Gadol make any such comment about Dirshu ect.
It can't be "all poskim since the Rambam' because mass kollel for all only became fashionable 20 or so years ago. Before that since say the 1940s kollel was for a select few. And much prior to that kollellim didn't exist at all.
So don't try and claim "all poskim since the Rambam' permit are talking about mass kollel for all
Just more playing loose with the facts.
beautifully articulated. i hope we get to hear more from you in the future!
the reason this is basically the only yeshivish blog that tackles the issues in a non-divrei torah manner (such as a wandering jew which i highly recommend) is because one simply cannot express Torah to an outsider. they don't get and probably never will unless they are willing to put a few years into soaking up chareidi/yeshivish/torahdike ideology. there is not much we can say to them as outsiders. kudos to this blog, and to this article for trying, and for this article for being explicit about this point. its like trying to explain how "mesorah" means more than "tradition" to someone completely secular.
Very nice. You left out one important aspect - the sociological, economic, and communal benefits which have been proven over and over again during the last generation throughout North America. Communities that have invested in good Yeshivos and Kollelim have become a magnet for young families looking for a place to settle. Passaic, New Jersey, is a good example of a morbid and decaying modern Orthodox community that was revitalized by their Yeshiva, and there are many other examples of this phenomenon. It is clear that ultimately only Torah centers strengthen a Jewish community.
Dosent seems so relevant. Why do there need to be more communities?
צדקת פרזונו בישראל
What do you mean?
Find out what Chazal say about that possuk
Homework?
Wheres the pasuk?
שירת דבורה
להגדיל תורה ולהאדיר
Making more communities? Not just more torah scholars? We should travel the world setting up jewish communities? Where do we see such a value?
that wasn't his point. his point was to show added value, which it does. torah is the center of a jewish non-secular community and where the is a yeshiva or a torahdike shul there tends to be a stronger comunity. is that not another benefit?
Yes. But mentioned economic and sociological benefits of just having more communities. Maybe he meant like you said. If so i definetly agree. I have a community kollel in givat shmuel which is an offshoot of הר המור and it definetly adds.
I am coming in a bit late here. I don't think it's about making new ones but strengthening the existing ones. This is very true in the US. I hear from 50 year olds in Chicago and Toronto that the Kollel completely changed the community. I hear the same about other communities as well. There are dying communities trying all sorts of tactics that aren't working to keep the place going, and the most successful is bringing in a Kollel. It is important to stress that unlike Israel, you can't just move over to the next hill, there is much less infrastructure and it can be a hundred km from the next Jewish town.
???
Unlike guys like you and Leib Shachar who actually have content, others have to show their emptiness with their poor מידות and ליצנות
What the hell? I was serious.
Oh well, youre a nobody anyway. Go live youre empty life
You dont know why you want to build more communities?
"Torah Scholars" is not an accurate translation of "Rabbonon". Throughout the talmud and midroshim, Rabbonon refers to who we would refer to as 'Rabbonim' of shuls, communities etc. That is absolutely clear from the contexts.
Words mean things, you know. Not just what you want them to mean to fit an agenda.
PS When kollel is a way of life for all self-respecting chareidim, how exactly do we know who in kollel can learn, cannot learn or how well they can learn? You haven't dealt with that point. Many kollelim have no farher system, no oversight whatsoever. Nothing.
When you write 'throughout the Talmud and midroshim', you should at least be able to quote one or two.
Can we have them? Where do we find the word רבנן as referring exclusively to Rabbonim of Shuls or communities?
I'll take a comfortable seat, a large cigar, a hot cup of tea, and wait.
Leaders and manhigim. Asmechinu rabbobon'' 'gozru bei rabbonon' 'atruchuh rabbonon' 'shoru leih rabbonon' and of course the rabonnon of the mishnah (as an aside go and see how many 'benei torah' can explain to you precisely who the rabbonon of the mishnah are)
So you didn't mean Rabbonim of Shuls, but 'leaders and Manhigim'.
And you know that because those leaders and manhigim are the type to אסמכינהו רבנן. Who proved that? The simple explanation of all of the quotes of yours is 'scholars'. Rabanan, all over the place, means scholars - people who know Torah.
"General scholars" do not do any of the below
Asmechinu rabbobon'' 'gozru bei rabbonon' 'atruchuh rabbonon' 'shoru leih rabbonon'
I wrote leaders and manhigim elsewhere in the thread on this topic Nitpick over all the minor points all you like to try and obfuscate. Read all my posts on this matter.
Actually, that is exactly what scholars do. They figure out the Halacha and decide it.
The idea of 'community Rabbi' is not a Talmudic one at all.
Indeed they do. But the discussion is not what scholars do. The discussion is about the specific form of 'scholar' referred to as 'rabbonon' in the talmud. And it is clear from numerous sources that you have avoided analysing that it does not refer to people learning b'chavrusoh. Look at all my points on this topic.
You are just playing around. Bye.
test, the only response to you right now is "...the only way a person could appreciate the learning of a Talmid Chacham is to become a Talmid Chacham" i'm sorry your an outsider. you will never get it:(
רבנן in many סוגיות mean the תלמידים in the ישיבה
No.
'Asmechinu rabbobon'' 'gozru bei rabbonon' 'atruchuh rabbonon' 'shoru leih rabbonon' etc. Are you telling me that every yeshivah student made gezeiris and droshos? And of course the 'rabbonon' of the mishnayos is not 'talmidim in the yeshivah'. And, leshitoscho, who says 'talmidim in the yeshivah' were not leaders of their own little villages, anyway. They didn't have 'yeshivos' or kollelim like we have (surprising, I know). I daresay you will find the odd mekor but that is not common use of the word.
But I know in yeshivaland you can argue anything for ever to support any view, so I am not going to spend time on this. Go learn some Aramaic.
ברכות ג: תנו רבנן (and all the תנו רבנן) is a ברייתא leaned by תלמידי הישיבה and codified by ר' חייא ור' אושעיא
ברכות ו ע"א
מאני דרבנן דבלו. רש"י- בגדי התלמידים שבלים מהר והם אינם בני מלאכה שיבלו בגדיהם
ו ע"ב
אמר רבי זירא מריש כי הוה חזינא להו לרבנן דקא רהטי לפרקא בשבתא אמינא קא מחליין רבנן שבתא...
Here we go. Who said rabbonim don't run to shiurim on shabbos? When they go to shiurim from their superiors they are obviously then acting us talmidim with worn out clothes.
Thank you for proving my point that anybody can argue anything in yeshivaland.
But the word 'rabbonon' in Amaraic is the same as 'Rabbi' or 'Rav' in Hebrew which has never been used to refer to stam torah scholars. As I said, words mean things.
The word רבנן means all ת"ח, from בחורים to גדולי הרבנים.
That's hwhat the word means.
רבנן is not the same as רבנים, like many words in ארמית which means different things than in עברית
E.g. תיובתא,
מאי אהנו לן רבנן? מעולם לא שרו לן עורבא ..
This is getting tiresome. Even from context it is referring to those rabbonon in a position to issue pesokim. Ie not stam torah learners. I believe rashi says that in sanhedrin like the yerushalmi quoted above to but i don't have the ability to look it up right now .
Divorce words from their meaning, divorce words from their context, just typical yeshivish kvetching.
its so annoying to talk to a one-sided person. you have a point and you look to find your point everywhere. you're not listening or responding. you are looking to make your point. and as such, there is no point in engaging with you. thx rkz for trying but you'll never get anywhere
Nobody has responded properly to any of my points (including you just now). Just whataboutism, insults, mockery and repetition. As expected.