Regarding the post at RJ: That survey is exactly what you would expect from an open anti-chareidi activist who writes about them about as much as our dear friend does, who writes in the survey results
"Only an externally imposed change that curtails state support for the haredi way of life and requires them to shoulder their share of the security and economic burden would propel their socioeconomic integration and save Israel from a third-world future." and "The haredim are struggling to preserve and fortify the walls of the ultra-Orthodox ghetto, and they rely upon state funding to do so." and "If the majority of Israelis do not unite and demand change, the path we are on will lead us to an unspeakable abyss."
"Ultra-Orthodox ghetto" and "unspeakable abyss". Very compelling data analysis!
Even so, the survey ends up making chareidim look very good, even by secular standards. Two thirds of chareidim are willing to suffer budget cuts for the war. A third of them are directly involved in the war effort. 45% believe it will lead to changes in chareidi society. 44% believe it will lead to reduced tensions within society. It ends up showing the total opposite of what the anti-chareidi conductor of the study is trying to show.
The problem with surveying Chareidim is the overwhelming majority don't actually know much about politics, I mean the average Avreich does not know anything about a state budget, and secondly most radical changes anyways come from the top ,so a bunch of individual opinions on societal changes are more often than not irrelevant(Unless they are asking what the rabbonim will do which I don't think is the case here).So taking this as a standard for what chareidi society believe is pretty useless IMO.Either way I agree the results are considerably less dismal than the "unspeakable abyss".
Great article by the soldier. In response to those rationalists who imagine that army service trumps all - I would suggest the following peace plan to be offered to our Arab enemies: since we all admit that Israelis have a good army, and the secular rationalists believe that army is the ends and goal, we propose that moving forward Israelis should become the army of the entire Middle East, while the Arabs can live civilian life. Every Jew will be in the army for life while the country(s) will belong to the Arabs.
The reason Slifkin hasn't restricted comments till now, is because the more comments, the higher the thread goes in substack's algorithm. His new post has 7 comments, and 5 of them are thanking him for restricting comments. If he keeps it like this, he'll be averaging 5 comments a post in the future.
Definitely was out of hand, that was kind of the purpose. But he has only himself to blame, for banning Happy and co, and not allowing a normal discussion.
Until The Great Purge, there were no trolls. But he couldn't handle it, because he was losing the narrative.
It was a process that he himself put into motion. First, he spent 50 days straight bashing Charedim. Surprise, surprise, this got people very upset and things got pretty nasty and he lost control over the comments section and banned everyone. So everyone opened up spoof accounts and started trolling him. I guarantee that his readership is going to go way down now. A bunch of MO sounding commenters wrote in that they like reading the comments to see the "divergent opinions". He himself is not really that interesting. Pretty repetitive and boring in fact.
i agree with most of what you said, except what you say that he isn't that interesting. and now i'm going to rant for a second, so you can ignore me, but people love hate and love inflammatory statements and posts. it's probably lashon hara, and we shouldn't be reading his site. i'll be honest, in the past he did damage to my appreciation of kedoshim v'tehorim like reb elyashiv and reb moshe shapiro. which is the worst kind of lashon hara. i probably shouldn't be reading his posts, let alone commenting, but i know that he is writing them to thousands of people and it really, really bothers me. and i feel this duty to defend my fellow yirei shamayim and bnei torah, ohavei Hashem. so i read and keep tabs and comment. probably its really just a stupid coffee room urge and i should get off, but the fellow chareidim here have actually helped me rethink a lot of things. this blog, call it what you want. has put a lot of things in perspective for me.
That's precisely why I comment there as well. But even without us commenting, after a certain amount of Charedi-bashing obsession, it gets to a point that his race-baiting loses its effect and people realize that he's just a sick little dude. Only really sickly obsessed Charedi hates like him will still find it interesting.
i'm not sure if this comment is on this post or slifkin's. will deal with both.
the issue with the slifkin vs. yeshivish people dialgue is that there are two worldviews, and more importantly, two completely separate value systems here. the insiders appreciate the value of torah learning, while the outsiders don't. there is almost no common ground between these two groups. the outsiders have to learn to see the world from our glasses if they want to get to us. but they never will because they never gave yeshiva a real shot, to truly absorb the values of torah b'iyun.
us insiders all know that torah b'iyun is the staple of yiddishkeit. we all understand intimately what chazal mean when they say that Hashem only resides today in the daled amos shel halacha. we understand how, after the proper years of training, we learn how to open up a sugya with all its tremendous complexity, to be able to decide of what is the ratzon Hashem, just like the poskim of the thousands of years of judaism's poskim did. we appreciate what dovid hamelech, rava and abaye, the rif, the rambam, the beis yosef, the shach, magen avraham, mishna brura, reb elyashiv, amongst the thousands of other gedolim through the doros, all spent their every waking hour doing. we, albeit on a much smaller scale, continue their very work. we uncover Hashem's will slowly and painfully, carefully and truthfully, and we get there. we may only cover ten full miktzo'os (halevai) before we're forty, but we're in the world of dvar Hashem.
as far as the army situation goes, in order to get to this level of learning, the average bachur simply doesn't get there before 21-22. even then he only tastes what a sugya b'iyun aliba d'hilchisa is, but he gets it. so barring extremely clear halachik circumstances, we simply cannot and will not be able to close the heilige yeshivos.
of course this war didn't change anything. only an outsider who has no clue what we're about and thinks that we also don't get our very own side, would ever have a hava amina that this war would change our hashkafa. someone who thinks we're just doing the whatever would expect this to be a wake up call. what slifkin doesn't realize is that we are wide awake and more alert than ever. we have a clear mission to keep klal yisroel alive in the sense of what klal yisroel really are.
what these outsiders do is find weaknesses with our side and live off those. like how not everyone needs to be in yeshiva. and not everyone is performing properly. true that man. but the yeshiva is nonetheless completely necessary for the situation today. even if more people perhaps should be going to work, it has to be with the understanding that, as yidden, that is considered b'dieved. not in the sense that people aren't to go, but in the sense that they realize that the talmidei chachamim are the ikkar. and seemingly, only through going through the yeshiva system will anyone ever pick that up. so when it comes to the army, we simply cannot close the yeshivos.
There is a story with Reb Dovid Karliner at a meeting about some Gezeiros against Torah. Someone suggested that they send someone to explain to the authorities the importance we attach to Torah. Reb Dovid Karliner retorted, "Let us first explain it to ourselves."
If our behavior displayed full fealty and total allegiance to the ideal of learning Torah be'iyun, we would have less explaining to do. When we sell ourselves short, celebrating Daf Yomi as the pinnacle of harbatzas hatorah (as one example), we will find it difficult to explain differently to outsiders.
We need to encourage more limud be'iyun in our circles, for baalebatim as well as yungeleit, to win this war. Too much beki'us out there, too little understanding, and therefore, appreciation for understanding.
No we need more bekius. A few daf noshim-nezikin means abysmal and unacceptable ignorance over most of torah. Most ba'alei battim don't know their kli rishons from their klie sheinis. Disgraceful.
Actually, I agree with you that the iyun is being done wrong. I just don't think beki'us is the solution, nor any other shortcut.
I dream of a Yeshiva like Ponovezh once was, with a daf a day spread over both Sedorim, a strong emphasis on משנתו סדורה בפיו, and an introduction to the depths of a Sevara through a Shiur. The talmidim should emerge with the ability to derher the Sevara without having to spend too much time on it.
But all this is another way of iyun, Rav Shach's complaint against learning slow is because it disturbs the iyun, not because 'you gotta know Shas'.
I agree with you on your first point. But it's important to be specific since most people who say we need more iyun than bekius mean it in a different way.
Rav Shach clearly said that the מהלך in America is שכחת התורה and one should come out of every Zman with an impressive amount to show for himself.
As far as your Koch on siyum hashas, listen to Rav Yaakov's speech at the siyum in 1982.
Agreed. But the stress on iyun is deliberate, to deliver more power to the ayatollahs. Can't have the average ba'al habbos knowing too much halocho. They might start querying the never ending stream of chumros and passuling eruvin and things like that. Never know where it will end.
Yes, this explains all the glossy advertisements and lavish parties filled with ayatollahs that dirshu halacha sponsors. They are trying to prevent baalebatim from learning halaacha
Yes. Every society where criticism of leaders is forbidden, and leaders have no accountability, slips into decay and totalitarianism. We are told over and over again by chazal that greatness leads to more yeitzer horoh, there is no evidence that today's charediland are immune to such things. That is Catholicism, the pope can never make a mistake, not authentic Judaism.
In times gone by there were checks and balances. Beis din could throw out errant dayonim. Rabbonim knew to retire when they reached an appropriate age.
well said. reb tzadok makesthis point that the עגל, while it only "happened" בפועל to 600, there was a chesaron in the greatests as well, however small. a few gaons along these lines as well (especially by מי מריבה)
i don't mind the daf yomi celebrations so much - i think they're the right thing to do, and don't think they spread a bad message, but i totally hear your point. gemara b'iyun is where it's at
I agree with your overall point. Certainly there is no reason why the war should change our general hashkafa. But as the needs and challenges of the generation change, we must and will change how we approach them. And on this point I agree with Slifkin- chareidim are on track to become a very significant percentage of the country, and that requires a change in practical approach, albeit not in hashkafa (although he thinks it requires a change in hashkafa, and is loath to admit any change is happening at all). I think we will see an increasing number of chareidim in the army, and that is already happening. Of course that doesn't mean that we won't have tens or hundreds of thousands of people in yeshiva, they are not mutually exclusive.
💯% I think we are totally on the same page. About the army, there are plenty of people they don't quite fit into the mold for so many reasons and if it became more acceptable they could join.
In America things are a lot less divisive and it's completely normal to go to work at the right time.
Agreed, but a more basic reason why even the other side should understand why it isn't working, is that opposition never works on people who believe in something. You gotta work with them. If secularists would never have pushed their agenda like they did we would never have had Niturei Karta. As Berel Wien says; "If the people in the Israeli Government want to know why their ideas aren't working to get Chareidim more cultured, they should look at the reactions the religious previously made when the secular were breathing down their backs. But that what happens when people don't listen to my lectures, they don't learn from History."
I can't speak for how accurate Rabbi Wein is on history, but this point that Leib is quoting him on is so glaringly obvious to anyone who knows the slightest bit about the frum mindset. We are conditioned, starting as early as at least the maaseh Chanukah, to fight back stubbornly against גזירות הדת. Trying to force things on people is the least effective way in the world to get it done.
I see what you mean from what you right below, but that was exactly my point. They think they understand history but don't understand it and will make those mistakes again. Then again, you sound like you just read the back flap of the book.
He may be right in this instance. I just don't like the idea of him being the world's expert on Jewish history.
I did not hear his speeches, I read his books when they were published. I was around barmitzvah age when my parents got them. They were so nice and smooth, you could almost forget that life is not like that.
No-one with any sophistication thinks he's the worlds expert. He's a populist. The difference is the world experts in one area don't have the broad picture in another, so in such a case, like a hashkafic or psychological takeaway, I find him to give a very good understanding.
I did not get that feeling at all, maybe because I read them when I was older than Bar Mitzva age. I was reading fluff from Yair Weinstock then.
Ha ha! He thinks that R' Yaakov Emden was utterly wrong? Because other MO historians (Pini Dunner, JJ Shachter) think he was utterly right! But I've heard this attitude from others about the Gaon misunderstanding the Chassidim before, which is of course completely incorrect.
He is very clear he is aware of the aspects of where R Emden was coming from, and as far as Chasidim he said very clearly that their break off, which was the main issue mentioned in the Cherem, caused many problems leading up to Haskala.
"Rabbi Wein has everything in a neat package, no fundamental disagreements, no differences of approach, all is perfect."
I don't know what the hell you are talking about. Did you just hear one speech and come to that conclusion? All he writes and talks about is controversies.
I like Rabbi Wein, not due to his history knowledge, but because of his personality. (He's probably the last old style litvak still around, since Reb Nota Greenblat passed away).
True but to be clear, I think my point goes deeper. They, in their ignorance, think we're wrong. We are not something to be worked with but something to be humiliated and beaten down until we get the program. They think we are the outsiders in our caves.
True, which explains why they are acting so aggressively. The only problem is that their aggressive tactic actually ruins their goal, and to be honest, I wouldn't mind if Chareidim didn't have to fight like this, because if they didn't, chareidim would also have less problems. I don't think it's a good thing how sheltered they are, but given the circumstances it won't change. Therefore it is incumbent upon Slifkin and those like him to change their approach, so that the problems they have with our community will actually be solved, as Happy just pointed out above.
In regards to Natan's latest post (cities of torah warriors), first, how does he explain the idea that pumpedesa didn't suffer at the hands of yavan and edom (תנחומא נח)? And is he sure that they didn't have any hishtadlus plans?
Maybe kiryas sefer is like pumpedesa, maybe it isn't. Probably one would have to go to check. (The few people i know there happen to be quite impressive.) But that misses the whole point. If torah actually protected in pumpedesa of old, that actually kills his whole vibe. Natan just dismisses the whole idea to begin with, because he doesn't believe in it. And he thinks we don't *really* believe it ourselves either. What a small minded view:(
And I guess he will probably put on subscriber mode whenever giving any hot and dicey Jewish takes...
I don't know if I'm allowed to talk about this here but I have no one else I can share with so here is my story: I'm a halachic Jew but I have a non Jewish father and I was raised as a typical American Christian. I only started considering myself Jewish in response to the upsurge of antisemitism that happened after 9-11. Although I was a staunch atheist at the time, I became an otherwise militant Kahanist in response to the terror of the 2nd Intifada.
Gush Katif pretty much killed Zionism for me. I turned against the state and also against the Israeli public as a whole. Honestly, I still haven't gotten over it all these years later. I did ultimately outgrow my childish atheism and while I grew more interested in Judaism over the next decade+, I also gradually lost interest in the state of Israel because I simply didn't feel connected to it, or it's people. Plus I was more concerned with American politics which went increasingly insane in the aftermath of Obama's re-election.
As time has gone on, I've learned ever more about Judaism even though I haven't become observant and I have no association with any Jews irl, there really aren't any around where I live and I wasn't raised as part of any Jewish community (never went to Hebrew school, wasn't bar mitzvahed and we never celebrated Jewish holidays). Culturally speaking, I really am a typical American goy, even if I always knew inside that I actually wasn't one. I certainly don't *look* like one.
But anyway, even though I still held my Kahanist beliefs, the more I learned about Judaism, the more I grew to really despise the Zionist state and the Chilonim (I include the so called "traditional" Mizrahim as part of the Chilonim). Like I said, I never got over Gush Katif and I was enraged when the Chilonim arrogantly attempted to draft the Haredim in the 2011-2014 time period. The insanity of the Trump years that bled into the Biden term took the brunt of my focus for a long time, so while I was learning more about Judaism I also basically just compartmentalized the Medina as something out "there" that I didn't actually have to deal with and could just ignore. I had mixed feelings regarding the state: on one hand, I supported it in principle but otoh, I hated it's values and, if I'm being honest, most of it's population.
Oct 7th was a really painful jolt back into reality for me. I have not been the same since and I don't believe I'm ever going to be able to be the same. For days I felt numb. Later on, anger towards the Arabs and there supporters would come but eventually that fell away and it was replaced with increasing rage towards the Chilonim for getting us into this mess.
My feelings are just so complex and so all over the place. On one hand, I'm devastated by the loss of so many Yidden and would gladly give my life to bring back even the most obnoxious kibbutznik, but on the other hand, I'm also thrilled to see the state and the secular public humiliated. I want to support the Jewish soldiers who are fighting to protect other Jews and rescue our captives, but I also find it impossible to fully support the army of Shmad or to form any connection with a public that I still largely despise. I love seeing the Palestinians and their supporters being made to pay for their crimes, but I hate seeing the State of Israel experience any type of triumph whatsoever, especially when I know that any strength the Zionists gain from this war will immediately be turned against the Torah community in Eretz Yisroel.
So yeah, I'm a mess. I'm dealing with all this grief, guilt and confusion and there is nobody I can even talk about my feelings with. My only comfort is that at least I'm suffering with the rest of my people this time, and this is the first time I've ever felt that way.
Your feelings are the same as most ehrliche people. We want Hamas destroyed, but we don't want a triumphant, arrogant State of Israel. Many Shuls say Perek 79 of Tehillim for the Yidden of Eretz Yisroel in these days, in which we say עזרינו א-להי ישענו על דבר כבוד שמך, we are davening for help that will bring us כבוד שמים, not the opposite.
Eliyahu Hanavi davened at Har Karmel for Hashem's help. He needed a miracle; fire to come down from Heaven and consume the Korban. He said ענני ה' ענני. He asked Hashem to help him twice. The Gemara says that he was asking Hashem first to save him and bring the fire, and also that Klal Yisroel see the miracle as Hashem's not מעשה כשפים.
That is how we daven. Hashem knows how to run His world, leave it to him. הלואי אותי עזבו ותורתי שמרו. We need to fulfill our obligations, davening for Yidden's sake. Hashem will take care of His world.
Also, 'despise' is a strong word. Besides a tiny minority, most of secular Israel are true ignoramuses. They don't know better. Feel pity for them, feel distanced from them for our differences. But not despise. We can't be happy that the State of Israel got humiliated when we consider the price we paid.
"We can't be happy that the State of Israel got humiliated when we consider the price we paid."
Hence my guilt for feeling the way that I do
"Besides a tiny minority, most of secular Israel are true ignoramuses"
Given their penchant for appropriating Jewish scriptures/phrases, I really don't think they are as ignorant as they sometimes come off. Stupid, maybe, but not truly "ignorant".
Even though I am now anti Zionist and think that settling Yesha was a horrendous mistake, what the Chiloni/traditional population did to the Jews of Gush Katif was totally criminal and it was done out of cruelty/selfishness, not ignorance. Most Israeli Jews strongly supported the police/military violence against Jewish youth during the Amona pogrom. The Chilonim didn't bother to hide their joy when Kahane was murdered. The IDF deliberately set up Binyamin Kahane and his wife to be murdered as well and the Chilonim supported that. The "draft Haredi" campaign is 100% based on desire to destroy the Haredim and nothing else. Even the RZ sector wants to destroy the Haredim (depending on their mood at any given time). And then there is the inhumane way that Yigal Amir has been treated (and I strongly disagree with what Amir did) which the Chilonim also totally support.
And maybe this is easier for me to see because I don't live in the Zionist entity, but Israeli Chilonim have a tremendous, and totally unjustified, superiority complex towards Jews in the galus.
I'm RZ (partially) and a settler (and somewhat of a Kahanist) and I certainlly don't want to destroy the Charedim ח"ו.
I know very very few RZ people who want to destroy the Charedim (and I know a lot of people).
Regarding the Chilonim, I have Chiloni relatives, and they are very very ignorant, but not hateful.
I served in the army with Chilonim, I went to the university with Chilonim, I used to work with Chilonim, and that's what I always saw- ignorance, not malice.
"and I certainlly don't want to destroy the Charedim ח"ו."
Then why do you want to draft them? Everyone, on both sides, knows that the whole point of the Haredi draft campaign is to destroy Haredi society and make them into state worshiping slaves like the RZs are. I'm not saying that you are a state worshiping slave, but if Gush Katif left any doubt that most RZs are just that, those doubts were erased by the RZ community's behavior during Covid.
"Regarding the Chilonim, I have Chiloni relatives, and they are very very ignorant, but not hateful."
What they did in Gush Katif was hateful. Period. No excuses. It makes no sense to say that Yair Lapid is a bad guy but that his voters are actually okay. Every Israeli Chiloni I've ever interacted with is EXACTLY like Yair Lapid.
BTW, I promise you that in the last elections the Chilonim knew full well that they were voting for parties who supported drafting the Haredim. Just like how in 2006 they knew they were voting for parties that supported ethnically cleansing 50k+ Jews for Judea and Samaria.
If the RZ position was just, "Yeah, the Chilonim are horrible people but Achdus Yisrael is a commandment so we have no choice but to love them anyway", that's an argument I'd respect, and even (reluctantly) agree with. But for some reason RZs insist on saying that the Chilonim are actually great people who are just misled by their own leaders, and it really isn't true. The Haredim, in contrast, seem to be far more realistic about who the Chilonim really are.
A. I don't want to draft Charedim (or anyone else, as I wrote before. I'm for a professional army).
B. I agree with you about Gush Katif and Covid (and I did my best during both to resist, but failed to convince enough people), but people are waking up (very slowly, but at least something is moving in the right direction).
C. Yair Lapid is a very bad guy, and so are some of his voters, but many of his voters are just very stupid (and I'm writing that based on my personal interactions with people).
D. RZ position is actually- all Jews are great people סגולה wise. The problem is that most RZ people are confused and conflate all three positions.
I apologize but I literally can't read a single letter of Hebrew. Can you translate the Hebrew word in point D into English for me?
"all Jews are great people"
Honestly man, it would be easier for me if I could believe that. If I at least could feel Achdus Yisrael for Jews who hold values that I find to be absolutely vile, I'd feel a lot less guilty about my other sins. But I simply can't make myself love them and I certainly don't see any good in them. I'm not saying the good isn't there, it probably is, but I myself can't see it.
One other thing, if you had lived here in America during the Trump years, I don't know if you'd be able to believe that all Jews are good people. I can say with full confidence that most American Jews, at least, are in fact very bad people. Listening to them now bemoan the antisemitism of the Muslims and the far left is surreal considering how closely they worked with those groups over the past 8 years.
"Yair Lapid is a very bad guy, and so are some of his voters, but many of his voters are just very stupid (and I'm writing that based on my personal interactions with people)."
You seriously don't think that most of Lapid's voters don't support shmad'ing the Haredim or the IDF's persecution of the Jews in Judea and Samaria? They still haven't repented for Gush Katif and some of them didn't even wait for the bodies to be cold before they started blaming the Oct 7th massacre on the IDF being distracted with protecting the settlements. It is extremely hard for me to believe that Lapid voters are actually decent people, and public opinion polls also seem to indicate otherwise.
just saw this awesome thread. zd speaks wisely, as always.
you can reach out to me at davidschulmannn@gmail.com and we can talk practical advice if your interested. i happen to know a lot of people with similar nature and background. but of course no pressure and only if you're interested
Regarding the post at RJ: That survey is exactly what you would expect from an open anti-chareidi activist who writes about them about as much as our dear friend does, who writes in the survey results
"Only an externally imposed change that curtails state support for the haredi way of life and requires them to shoulder their share of the security and economic burden would propel their socioeconomic integration and save Israel from a third-world future." and "The haredim are struggling to preserve and fortify the walls of the ultra-Orthodox ghetto, and they rely upon state funding to do so." and "If the majority of Israelis do not unite and demand change, the path we are on will lead us to an unspeakable abyss."
"Ultra-Orthodox ghetto" and "unspeakable abyss". Very compelling data analysis!
Even so, the survey ends up making chareidim look very good, even by secular standards. Two thirds of chareidim are willing to suffer budget cuts for the war. A third of them are directly involved in the war effort. 45% believe it will lead to changes in chareidi society. 44% believe it will lead to reduced tensions within society. It ends up showing the total opposite of what the anti-chareidi conductor of the study is trying to show.
The problem with surveying Chareidim is the overwhelming majority don't actually know much about politics, I mean the average Avreich does not know anything about a state budget, and secondly most radical changes anyways come from the top ,so a bunch of individual opinions on societal changes are more often than not irrelevant(Unless they are asking what the rabbonim will do which I don't think is the case here).So taking this as a standard for what chareidi society believe is pretty useless IMO.Either way I agree the results are considerably less dismal than the "unspeakable abyss".
Great article by the soldier. In response to those rationalists who imagine that army service trumps all - I would suggest the following peace plan to be offered to our Arab enemies: since we all admit that Israelis have a good army, and the secular rationalists believe that army is the ends and goal, we propose that moving forward Israelis should become the army of the entire Middle East, while the Arabs can live civilian life. Every Jew will be in the army for life while the country(s) will belong to the Arabs.
This is an excellent article an incredibly difficult idea to put into words.Brilliantly done.
The reason Slifkin hasn't restricted comments till now, is because the more comments, the higher the thread goes in substack's algorithm. His new post has 7 comments, and 5 of them are thanking him for restricting comments. If he keeps it like this, he'll be averaging 5 comments a post in the future.
Probably true, but the troll thing was out of hand and annoying lately.
Definitely was out of hand, that was kind of the purpose. But he has only himself to blame, for banning Happy and co, and not allowing a normal discussion.
Until The Great Purge, there were no trolls. But he couldn't handle it, because he was losing the narrative.
I agree he should not have banned happy and some Co
It was a process that he himself put into motion. First, he spent 50 days straight bashing Charedim. Surprise, surprise, this got people very upset and things got pretty nasty and he lost control over the comments section and banned everyone. So everyone opened up spoof accounts and started trolling him. I guarantee that his readership is going to go way down now. A bunch of MO sounding commenters wrote in that they like reading the comments to see the "divergent opinions". He himself is not really that interesting. Pretty repetitive and boring in fact.
i agree with most of what you said, except what you say that he isn't that interesting. and now i'm going to rant for a second, so you can ignore me, but people love hate and love inflammatory statements and posts. it's probably lashon hara, and we shouldn't be reading his site. i'll be honest, in the past he did damage to my appreciation of kedoshim v'tehorim like reb elyashiv and reb moshe shapiro. which is the worst kind of lashon hara. i probably shouldn't be reading his posts, let alone commenting, but i know that he is writing them to thousands of people and it really, really bothers me. and i feel this duty to defend my fellow yirei shamayim and bnei torah, ohavei Hashem. so i read and keep tabs and comment. probably its really just a stupid coffee room urge and i should get off, but the fellow chareidim here have actually helped me rethink a lot of things. this blog, call it what you want. has put a lot of things in perspective for me.
anyhooo...
That's precisely why I comment there as well. But even without us commenting, after a certain amount of Charedi-bashing obsession, it gets to a point that his race-baiting loses its effect and people realize that he's just a sick little dude. Only really sickly obsessed Charedi hates like him will still find it interesting.
i'm not sure if this comment is on this post or slifkin's. will deal with both.
the issue with the slifkin vs. yeshivish people dialgue is that there are two worldviews, and more importantly, two completely separate value systems here. the insiders appreciate the value of torah learning, while the outsiders don't. there is almost no common ground between these two groups. the outsiders have to learn to see the world from our glasses if they want to get to us. but they never will because they never gave yeshiva a real shot, to truly absorb the values of torah b'iyun.
us insiders all know that torah b'iyun is the staple of yiddishkeit. we all understand intimately what chazal mean when they say that Hashem only resides today in the daled amos shel halacha. we understand how, after the proper years of training, we learn how to open up a sugya with all its tremendous complexity, to be able to decide of what is the ratzon Hashem, just like the poskim of the thousands of years of judaism's poskim did. we appreciate what dovid hamelech, rava and abaye, the rif, the rambam, the beis yosef, the shach, magen avraham, mishna brura, reb elyashiv, amongst the thousands of other gedolim through the doros, all spent their every waking hour doing. we, albeit on a much smaller scale, continue their very work. we uncover Hashem's will slowly and painfully, carefully and truthfully, and we get there. we may only cover ten full miktzo'os (halevai) before we're forty, but we're in the world of dvar Hashem.
as far as the army situation goes, in order to get to this level of learning, the average bachur simply doesn't get there before 21-22. even then he only tastes what a sugya b'iyun aliba d'hilchisa is, but he gets it. so barring extremely clear halachik circumstances, we simply cannot and will not be able to close the heilige yeshivos.
of course this war didn't change anything. only an outsider who has no clue what we're about and thinks that we also don't get our very own side, would ever have a hava amina that this war would change our hashkafa. someone who thinks we're just doing the whatever would expect this to be a wake up call. what slifkin doesn't realize is that we are wide awake and more alert than ever. we have a clear mission to keep klal yisroel alive in the sense of what klal yisroel really are.
what these outsiders do is find weaknesses with our side and live off those. like how not everyone needs to be in yeshiva. and not everyone is performing properly. true that man. but the yeshiva is nonetheless completely necessary for the situation today. even if more people perhaps should be going to work, it has to be with the understanding that, as yidden, that is considered b'dieved. not in the sense that people aren't to go, but in the sense that they realize that the talmidei chachamim are the ikkar. and seemingly, only through going through the yeshiva system will anyone ever pick that up. so when it comes to the army, we simply cannot close the yeshivos.
There is a story with Reb Dovid Karliner at a meeting about some Gezeiros against Torah. Someone suggested that they send someone to explain to the authorities the importance we attach to Torah. Reb Dovid Karliner retorted, "Let us first explain it to ourselves."
If our behavior displayed full fealty and total allegiance to the ideal of learning Torah be'iyun, we would have less explaining to do. When we sell ourselves short, celebrating Daf Yomi as the pinnacle of harbatzas hatorah (as one example), we will find it difficult to explain differently to outsiders.
We need to encourage more limud be'iyun in our circles, for baalebatim as well as yungeleit, to win this war. Too much beki'us out there, too little understanding, and therefore, appreciation for understanding.
No we need more bekius. A few daf noshim-nezikin means abysmal and unacceptable ignorance over most of torah. Most ba'alei battim don't know their kli rishons from their klie sheinis. Disgraceful.
"We need to encourage more limud be'iyun in our circles, for baalebatim as well as yungeleit, to win this war."
קריינא דאיגרתא איהו ליהוי פרוונקא
you should write a post about the importance of iyun
Spare me. Too much bekius huh, I don't think there was a time it was so dismal.
Well perhaps the iyun is being done wrong and perspective can help that out
Actually, I agree with you that the iyun is being done wrong. I just don't think beki'us is the solution, nor any other shortcut.
I dream of a Yeshiva like Ponovezh once was, with a daf a day spread over both Sedorim, a strong emphasis on משנתו סדורה בפיו, and an introduction to the depths of a Sevara through a Shiur. The talmidim should emerge with the ability to derher the Sevara without having to spend too much time on it.
But all this is another way of iyun, Rav Shach's complaint against learning slow is because it disturbs the iyun, not because 'you gotta know Shas'.
I agree with you on your first point. But it's important to be specific since most people who say we need more iyun than bekius mean it in a different way.
Rav Shach clearly said that the מהלך in America is שכחת התורה and one should come out of every Zman with an impressive amount to show for himself.
As far as your Koch on siyum hashas, listen to Rav Yaakov's speech at the siyum in 1982.
100%. People need to care more about the Emes than creative insight.
emes, and shleimus of a sugya
Agreed. But the stress on iyun is deliberate, to deliver more power to the ayatollahs. Can't have the average ba'al habbos knowing too much halocho. They might start querying the never ending stream of chumros and passuling eruvin and things like that. Never know where it will end.
Aha.
Yes, this explains all the glossy advertisements and lavish parties filled with ayatollahs that dirshu halacha sponsors. They are trying to prevent baalebatim from learning halaacha
right that's why. a power struggle
Yes. Every society where criticism of leaders is forbidden, and leaders have no accountability, slips into decay and totalitarianism. We are told over and over again by chazal that greatness leads to more yeitzer horoh, there is no evidence that today's charediland are immune to such things. That is Catholicism, the pope can never make a mistake, not authentic Judaism.
In times gone by there were checks and balances. Beis din could throw out errant dayonim. Rabbonim knew to retire when they reached an appropriate age.
None of that exists today.
well said. reb tzadok makesthis point that the עגל, while it only "happened" בפועל to 600, there was a chesaron in the greatests as well, however small. a few gaons along these lines as well (especially by מי מריבה)
i don't mind the daf yomi celebrations so much - i think they're the right thing to do, and don't think they spread a bad message, but i totally hear your point. gemara b'iyun is where it's at
I agree with your overall point. Certainly there is no reason why the war should change our general hashkafa. But as the needs and challenges of the generation change, we must and will change how we approach them. And on this point I agree with Slifkin- chareidim are on track to become a very significant percentage of the country, and that requires a change in practical approach, albeit not in hashkafa (although he thinks it requires a change in hashkafa, and is loath to admit any change is happening at all). I think we will see an increasing number of chareidim in the army, and that is already happening. Of course that doesn't mean that we won't have tens or hundreds of thousands of people in yeshiva, they are not mutually exclusive.
💯% I think we are totally on the same page. About the army, there are plenty of people they don't quite fit into the mold for so many reasons and if it became more acceptable they could join.
In America things are a lot less divisive and it's completely normal to go to work at the right time.
Agreed, but a more basic reason why even the other side should understand why it isn't working, is that opposition never works on people who believe in something. You gotta work with them. If secularists would never have pushed their agenda like they did we would never have had Niturei Karta. As Berel Wien says; "If the people in the Israeli Government want to know why their ideas aren't working to get Chareidim more cultured, they should look at the reactions the religious previously made when the secular were breathing down their backs. But that what happens when people don't listen to my lectures, they don't learn from History."
A person can learn history. He can also listen to Rabbi Wein's lectures.
But not at the same time.
I can't speak for how accurate Rabbi Wein is on history, but this point that Leib is quoting him on is so glaringly obvious to anyone who knows the slightest bit about the frum mindset. We are conditioned, starting as early as at least the maaseh Chanukah, to fight back stubbornly against גזירות הדת. Trying to force things on people is the least effective way in the world to get it done.
I see what you mean from what you right below, but that was exactly my point. They think they understand history but don't understand it and will make those mistakes again. Then again, you sound like you just read the back flap of the book.
He may be right in this instance. I just don't like the idea of him being the world's expert on Jewish history.
I did not hear his speeches, I read his books when they were published. I was around barmitzvah age when my parents got them. They were so nice and smooth, you could almost forget that life is not like that.
No-one with any sophistication thinks he's the worlds expert. He's a populist. The difference is the world experts in one area don't have the broad picture in another, so in such a case, like a hashkafic or psychological takeaway, I find him to give a very good understanding.
I did not get that feeling at all, maybe because I read them when I was older than Bar Mitzva age. I was reading fluff from Yair Weinstock then.
haha i love rabbi shmuel irons for that reason. less opinion, more facts and sources
It's not just opinion. Rabbi Wein has everything in a neat package, no fundamental disagreements, no differences of approach, all is perfect.
We are all Zionists, just not secular Zionists.
Reb Yaakov Emden was utterly wrong, as was the Vilna Gaon about Chassidim. But they meant well, so all is fine.
The messiness of history, as well as the many parts of history that are still a confusion, totally passed him by.
Ha ha! He thinks that R' Yaakov Emden was utterly wrong? Because other MO historians (Pini Dunner, JJ Shachter) think he was utterly right! But I've heard this attitude from others about the Gaon misunderstanding the Chassidim before, which is of course completely incorrect.
I am not quoting things precisely. I am showing the הלך ילך of his books. There's no nuance and no place for flaming machlokes.
Exactly what haskala was, how it was a threat, who thought it wasn't a threat, all of these passed him by.
Rabbi Wein is not MO, he's his own thing. He's old fashioned Chareidi. (And I wouldn't exactly call Dunner a historian...)
Anyhow, why you so sure the Gaon understood Chassidim correctly?
He is very clear he is aware of the aspects of where R Emden was coming from, and as far as Chasidim he said very clearly that their break off, which was the main issue mentioned in the Cherem, caused many problems leading up to Haskala.
"Rabbi Wein has everything in a neat package, no fundamental disagreements, no differences of approach, all is perfect."
I don't know what the hell you are talking about. Did you just hear one speech and come to that conclusion? All he writes and talks about is controversies.
k lol i'm not as well read (or listened). as i said, i like rabbi irons...
I like Rabbi Wein, not due to his history knowledge, but because of his personality. (He's probably the last old style litvak still around, since Reb Nota Greenblat passed away).
I think that's the real reason he's so popular
True, I listen to him a lot as well, but I happen to agree with his philosophical take most of the time.
Haha.
I think this is leshitascha, that you are anti bekius. ודו"ק.
True but to be clear, I think my point goes deeper. They, in their ignorance, think we're wrong. We are not something to be worked with but something to be humiliated and beaten down until we get the program. They think we are the outsiders in our caves.
True, which explains why they are acting so aggressively. The only problem is that their aggressive tactic actually ruins their goal, and to be honest, I wouldn't mind if Chareidim didn't have to fight like this, because if they didn't, chareidim would also have less problems. I don't think it's a good thing how sheltered they are, but given the circumstances it won't change. Therefore it is incumbent upon Slifkin and those like him to change their approach, so that the problems they have with our community will actually be solved, as Happy just pointed out above.
Thank you for this articulate post and may הקב"ה watch over you and all of כלל ישראל!
In regards to Natan's latest post (cities of torah warriors), first, how does he explain the idea that pumpedesa didn't suffer at the hands of yavan and edom (תנחומא נח)? And is he sure that they didn't have any hishtadlus plans?
Maybe kiryas sefer is like pumpedesa, maybe it isn't. Probably one would have to go to check. (The few people i know there happen to be quite impressive.) But that misses the whole point. If torah actually protected in pumpedesa of old, that actually kills his whole vibe. Natan just dismisses the whole idea to begin with, because he doesn't believe in it. And he thinks we don't *really* believe it ourselves either. What a small minded view:(
And I guess he will probably put on subscriber mode whenever giving any hot and dicey Jewish takes...
I don't know if I'm allowed to talk about this here but I have no one else I can share with so here is my story: I'm a halachic Jew but I have a non Jewish father and I was raised as a typical American Christian. I only started considering myself Jewish in response to the upsurge of antisemitism that happened after 9-11. Although I was a staunch atheist at the time, I became an otherwise militant Kahanist in response to the terror of the 2nd Intifada.
Gush Katif pretty much killed Zionism for me. I turned against the state and also against the Israeli public as a whole. Honestly, I still haven't gotten over it all these years later. I did ultimately outgrow my childish atheism and while I grew more interested in Judaism over the next decade+, I also gradually lost interest in the state of Israel because I simply didn't feel connected to it, or it's people. Plus I was more concerned with American politics which went increasingly insane in the aftermath of Obama's re-election.
As time has gone on, I've learned ever more about Judaism even though I haven't become observant and I have no association with any Jews irl, there really aren't any around where I live and I wasn't raised as part of any Jewish community (never went to Hebrew school, wasn't bar mitzvahed and we never celebrated Jewish holidays). Culturally speaking, I really am a typical American goy, even if I always knew inside that I actually wasn't one. I certainly don't *look* like one.
But anyway, even though I still held my Kahanist beliefs, the more I learned about Judaism, the more I grew to really despise the Zionist state and the Chilonim (I include the so called "traditional" Mizrahim as part of the Chilonim). Like I said, I never got over Gush Katif and I was enraged when the Chilonim arrogantly attempted to draft the Haredim in the 2011-2014 time period. The insanity of the Trump years that bled into the Biden term took the brunt of my focus for a long time, so while I was learning more about Judaism I also basically just compartmentalized the Medina as something out "there" that I didn't actually have to deal with and could just ignore. I had mixed feelings regarding the state: on one hand, I supported it in principle but otoh, I hated it's values and, if I'm being honest, most of it's population.
Oct 7th was a really painful jolt back into reality for me. I have not been the same since and I don't believe I'm ever going to be able to be the same. For days I felt numb. Later on, anger towards the Arabs and there supporters would come but eventually that fell away and it was replaced with increasing rage towards the Chilonim for getting us into this mess.
My feelings are just so complex and so all over the place. On one hand, I'm devastated by the loss of so many Yidden and would gladly give my life to bring back even the most obnoxious kibbutznik, but on the other hand, I'm also thrilled to see the state and the secular public humiliated. I want to support the Jewish soldiers who are fighting to protect other Jews and rescue our captives, but I also find it impossible to fully support the army of Shmad or to form any connection with a public that I still largely despise. I love seeing the Palestinians and their supporters being made to pay for their crimes, but I hate seeing the State of Israel experience any type of triumph whatsoever, especially when I know that any strength the Zionists gain from this war will immediately be turned against the Torah community in Eretz Yisroel.
So yeah, I'm a mess. I'm dealing with all this grief, guilt and confusion and there is nobody I can even talk about my feelings with. My only comfort is that at least I'm suffering with the rest of my people this time, and this is the first time I've ever felt that way.
Thanks for reading
Your feelings are the same as most ehrliche people. We want Hamas destroyed, but we don't want a triumphant, arrogant State of Israel. Many Shuls say Perek 79 of Tehillim for the Yidden of Eretz Yisroel in these days, in which we say עזרינו א-להי ישענו על דבר כבוד שמך, we are davening for help that will bring us כבוד שמים, not the opposite.
Eliyahu Hanavi davened at Har Karmel for Hashem's help. He needed a miracle; fire to come down from Heaven and consume the Korban. He said ענני ה' ענני. He asked Hashem to help him twice. The Gemara says that he was asking Hashem first to save him and bring the fire, and also that Klal Yisroel see the miracle as Hashem's not מעשה כשפים.
That is how we daven. Hashem knows how to run His world, leave it to him. הלואי אותי עזבו ותורתי שמרו. We need to fulfill our obligations, davening for Yidden's sake. Hashem will take care of His world.
Also, 'despise' is a strong word. Besides a tiny minority, most of secular Israel are true ignoramuses. They don't know better. Feel pity for them, feel distanced from them for our differences. But not despise. We can't be happy that the State of Israel got humiliated when we consider the price we paid.
"We can't be happy that the State of Israel got humiliated when we consider the price we paid."
Hence my guilt for feeling the way that I do
"Besides a tiny minority, most of secular Israel are true ignoramuses"
Given their penchant for appropriating Jewish scriptures/phrases, I really don't think they are as ignorant as they sometimes come off. Stupid, maybe, but not truly "ignorant".
Even though I am now anti Zionist and think that settling Yesha was a horrendous mistake, what the Chiloni/traditional population did to the Jews of Gush Katif was totally criminal and it was done out of cruelty/selfishness, not ignorance. Most Israeli Jews strongly supported the police/military violence against Jewish youth during the Amona pogrom. The Chilonim didn't bother to hide their joy when Kahane was murdered. The IDF deliberately set up Binyamin Kahane and his wife to be murdered as well and the Chilonim supported that. The "draft Haredi" campaign is 100% based on desire to destroy the Haredim and nothing else. Even the RZ sector wants to destroy the Haredim (depending on their mood at any given time). And then there is the inhumane way that Yigal Amir has been treated (and I strongly disagree with what Amir did) which the Chilonim also totally support.
And maybe this is easier for me to see because I don't live in the Zionist entity, but Israeli Chilonim have a tremendous, and totally unjustified, superiority complex towards Jews in the galus.
I'm RZ (partially) and a settler (and somewhat of a Kahanist) and I certainlly don't want to destroy the Charedim ח"ו.
I know very very few RZ people who want to destroy the Charedim (and I know a lot of people).
Regarding the Chilonim, I have Chiloni relatives, and they are very very ignorant, but not hateful.
I served in the army with Chilonim, I went to the university with Chilonim, I used to work with Chilonim, and that's what I always saw- ignorance, not malice.
"and I certainlly don't want to destroy the Charedim ח"ו."
Then why do you want to draft them? Everyone, on both sides, knows that the whole point of the Haredi draft campaign is to destroy Haredi society and make them into state worshiping slaves like the RZs are. I'm not saying that you are a state worshiping slave, but if Gush Katif left any doubt that most RZs are just that, those doubts were erased by the RZ community's behavior during Covid.
"Regarding the Chilonim, I have Chiloni relatives, and they are very very ignorant, but not hateful."
What they did in Gush Katif was hateful. Period. No excuses. It makes no sense to say that Yair Lapid is a bad guy but that his voters are actually okay. Every Israeli Chiloni I've ever interacted with is EXACTLY like Yair Lapid.
BTW, I promise you that in the last elections the Chilonim knew full well that they were voting for parties who supported drafting the Haredim. Just like how in 2006 they knew they were voting for parties that supported ethnically cleansing 50k+ Jews for Judea and Samaria.
If the RZ position was just, "Yeah, the Chilonim are horrible people but Achdus Yisrael is a commandment so we have no choice but to love them anyway", that's an argument I'd respect, and even (reluctantly) agree with. But for some reason RZs insist on saying that the Chilonim are actually great people who are just misled by their own leaders, and it really isn't true. The Haredim, in contrast, seem to be far more realistic about who the Chilonim really are.
A. I don't want to draft Charedim (or anyone else, as I wrote before. I'm for a professional army).
B. I agree with you about Gush Katif and Covid (and I did my best during both to resist, but failed to convince enough people), but people are waking up (very slowly, but at least something is moving in the right direction).
C. Yair Lapid is a very bad guy, and so are some of his voters, but many of his voters are just very stupid (and I'm writing that based on my personal interactions with people).
D. RZ position is actually- all Jews are great people סגולה wise. The problem is that most RZ people are confused and conflate all three positions.
I apologize but I literally can't read a single letter of Hebrew. Can you translate the Hebrew word in point D into English for me?
"all Jews are great people"
Honestly man, it would be easier for me if I could believe that. If I at least could feel Achdus Yisrael for Jews who hold values that I find to be absolutely vile, I'd feel a lot less guilty about my other sins. But I simply can't make myself love them and I certainly don't see any good in them. I'm not saying the good isn't there, it probably is, but I myself can't see it.
One other thing, if you had lived here in America during the Trump years, I don't know if you'd be able to believe that all Jews are good people. I can say with full confidence that most American Jews, at least, are in fact very bad people. Listening to them now bemoan the antisemitism of the Muslims and the far left is surreal considering how closely they worked with those groups over the past 8 years.
"Yair Lapid is a very bad guy, and so are some of his voters, but many of his voters are just very stupid (and I'm writing that based on my personal interactions with people)."
You seriously don't think that most of Lapid's voters don't support shmad'ing the Haredim or the IDF's persecution of the Jews in Judea and Samaria? They still haven't repented for Gush Katif and some of them didn't even wait for the bodies to be cold before they started blaming the Oct 7th massacre on the IDF being distracted with protecting the settlements. It is extremely hard for me to believe that Lapid voters are actually decent people, and public opinion polls also seem to indicate otherwise.
just saw this awesome thread. zd speaks wisely, as always.
you can reach out to me at davidschulmannn@gmail.com and we can talk practical advice if your interested. i happen to know a lot of people with similar nature and background. but of course no pressure and only if you're interested
a word to the author of the post - well done! looking forward to more from you! the moshol with the body guard was excellent!
Abolish the IDF draft. Privatise defence. Have an efficient professional army. Problem solved
Until Hamas attacks.
Actually, a professional army would have probably done better.
https://www.allvolunteerforce.org.il/
https://www.kav.org.il/%D7%94%D7%91%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%92-%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%9B%D7%96%D7%99/item/2649-%D7%A2%D7%92%D7%9C-%D7%94%D7%96%D7%94%D7%91-%D7%90%D7%99%D7%A4%D7%94-%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%93%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%94-%D7%9B%D7%A9%D7%A6%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9A-%D7%90%D7%95%D7%AA%D7%94
https://www.kav.org.il/%D7%94%D7%91%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%92-%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%9B%D7%96%D7%99/item/2648-%D7%90%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%9F-%D7%9E%D7%9C%D7%90-%D7%91%D7%A6%D7%94-%D7%9C-%D7%95%D7%91%D7%9E%D7%A4%D7%A7%D7%93%D7%99%D7%95
https://www.kav.org.il/%D7%94%D7%9B%D7%A9%D7%9C-%D7%95%D7%A4%D7%AA%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%95/%D7%A6%D7%91%D7%90