Excellent article, this would also explain why the more religious Zionists don't seem to have nearly as much of an issue with chareidim.
Even though they could argue they "have the best of both". Besides for a few core differences, mostly based around how to look at our relationship with EY, generally there is real mutual respect , because after all we have the same religion.
About Natan's latest post: whatever pshat he is saying is not like Rashi and about his specific pshat, see maharsha who answers his huge q, and deals with the text way better than he does
But no, we made up our pshat and we're reading whatever we want into chazal...
And Eli b points out the Rashi thing, but in truth it's more than just Rashi; that is the simplest reading of the gemara. For someone who likes "pashut pshat"like the pashtanei mikra, he isn't reading the gemara in it's simplest form. The gemara knows how to talk and said that it was his first study. True it then brings a Pasuk but the main thing is the words of the gemara obviously. As for the pasuk, again, see maharsha. (Much more parsimonious)
Why is it the 'simplest reading of the gemoroh'? Rashi has added in the word 'supported'/'helped' (PS I don't know why NS reads into Rashi 'victorious', Rashi doesn't say that either) that the gemoroh does not say. The fact that you believe that it is the 'simplest reading of the gemorroh' shows a weakness in your ability 'to learn'.
Anyway, what does the gemoroh mean in the converse 'Were it not for Yoav, Dovid could not be involved in tzedoko u'mishpot'? Why not? Torah protects, no? Shouldn't need Yoav at all?
for everyone who is not @test, the answers are pretty straight forward:
Dovid did not learn so Yoav can be available to go to war and not win. that would be a totally meaningless thing to say. what the heck is the purpose of yoav being available to go to war if not to win? obviously it is talking about being successful at war.
but regardless, i wasn't even talking about that point. i was talking about the "learning torah" vs. "sitting on beis din." the gemara says explicitly that it is referring to dovid's torah study. yes the gemara brings a pasuk, but the gemara says what it wants to say. the maharsha deals with the pasuk, and as it turns out, learning is a goal to know Hashem's torah which allows for teaching a paskening later on, which is exactly what we are valuing!
"what the heck is the purpose of yoav being available to go to war if not to win"
You are confusing purpose with result. Dovid and Yoav were both soldiers (shocking isn't it?). The gemoroh is pointing out that becuase Yoav took the role of general, Dovid was able to take the role of mishpot and tzedek and was not needed for battle. In other words, the chiddush is that only because Yoav went to battle, Dovid was able to learn. And vice versa.
Who is faciliating whom? They are both needed, torah alone is not enough. That is the chiddush of the gemoroh.
Winning has nothing to do with it. You can understand the gemoroh without using the word 'winning'.
rashi says that in the "zchus" of dovid learning, yoav went to battle - clearly referring to winning
btw test, i'm not sure why we can't have this very same conversation without the 3 yr old put downs. this could've been a normal back and forth. i'm not here to *win* i'm here to *learn* and i'm more than happy to learn from you if i make a mistake. but you decided to start off with some snide rip on nobody. you could've and should've just asked and discussed, i would've answered and we'd both come out wiser.
(this is not totally on topic, more related to that lengthy convo below in this comment section but...)
just wanna say for the record (at risk of losing some friends here:) i don't think that Natan is an אפיקורס - gemara in sanhedrin (מאי אהני לן רבנן) notwithstanding. halachically, i'd (possibly ask a שאלה למעשה but i would be shocked if was actually אסור to) drink his wine etc. i'm not actually paskening but... i think the first point of order is understanding the difference between an apikores and an am haaretz. why is an am haaretz, who really doesn't appreciate torah scholars properly, not an apikores? i imagine he would also share similar sentiment to מאי אהני לן רבנן.
the other question is, what about someone who is raised with a more Hirshian twist, and is made to believe that we live in this world to fix it and live amongst the goyim and we're supposed to be worldly and understand science and where torah isn't the center. even if because of this shita they come to an entirely different worldview about the role of torah and our gedolim, are they truly beyond the pale? i would consider this amaratzus, someone who doesn't appreciate that reb hirsch zt'l himself was a real, true torah scholar first and foremost. that he understood the tremendous and most important value of shevet Levi.
a lot of what Natan says is pretty borderline, but i really don't think he qualifies as the halachic apikoros. (besides the fact that he was hurt by the system and had backing from some rabbanim, whether they were right or not in the given situation. but do we think his Challenge of Creation was so clearly כפירה? and yet there were some intense reactions gong on where certain lines were definitely blurred) this is obviously a big sugya and i wonder, but perhaps these folks are just wrong, as in amaratzim who don't appreciate the value of torah, nebach, but כופרים ממש? not sure. i'm נוטה not. I'd love to hear feedback.
and of course i know all of the many different shitos he's espoused, and i strongly disagree with a whole bunch of them, and i definitely think he has been a(n unwitting?) rabble-rouser, but if so, we can still talk to him and hear him out, and even concede to the many times he is right and help put it into context.
All this heresy calling is straight out revenge for his anti-chareidi stance and posts. Nothing more lomdish than that.
Childish really. NS is anti-charedie OTT in recent months, fair enough, but a real ben torah/rov would just distinquishedly ignore (as in fact they do). But as banana wrote, this is all generated by a 'bunch of bored ba'alei battim'. What do you expect from bored ba'alei battim? They don't claim to be 'benei torah'.
We're not on the same page test, just to be clear. I think Natan says some things that are scarily borderline. The heresy claims are not unfounded at all. I'm just saying that I don't think he is an actual kofer. But any kal daas can super easily transition from his position towards actual kfira with little trouble.
At the same time, a lot of the issues he raises are real. The questions from science are far from simple. Many of the issues he has with chareidim are not unfounded. His concerns about leadership in the chareidi world are not silly. He just goes about it as an outsider who doesn't get the whole picture.
That's ok. Your being to vague to debate, but many great thinkers in our history have been accused of heresy. From the Rambam to Rav Crescas to Rav Emded to Rav Yonasan Eibeshchitz to the lord rabbi dr Sacks.
"This doesn’t mean that chareidim don’t need to justify their interpretation to non-secularist Datiim, who generally make use of halachic arguments in favor of the draft"
Every halachic argument in favor of the draft presumes that the current state has legitimacy. This is the danger of not arguing using absolutes. If the haredim would just say, "we don't recognize the state and will will never risk our lives to protect it", this whole controversy would go away forever.
There is a reason nobody even pretends to want Satmar and NK to be drafted.
The fact is, the PEOPLE in Israel are in danger. They need protection, whatever the State is. Soldiers are necessary, we can't live without them when we have so many enemies surrounding us.
I believe this is a weak argument that most non-chassidim don't hold of, because they benefit from the government, such as the health care, roads, water, etc. Even if we were dealing with lehavdil Soviet Russia, you can't just say you don't recognize the state as if it's not there.
Well if the Haredim do in fact value the state, then it is fact totally legitimate to expect them to fight for it like everyone else does.
I would still oppose mandatory conscription of the haredim and I opposed it even when I was still a Zionist, but if the haredim do really feel connected to the state then I think it is wrong for them to demand a class wide exemption from the draft. Well, not wrong for demanding mass exemptions but wrong for not being willing to make more than the token compromises that they have so far. The rabbis could at least send the OTD'ers to the army and offer to form a haredi auxillary militia or something.
The way I view it is like this. If you are coming from the same religion as chareidim, it is appropriate to ask the why they don't fight, and dispute their decision not too, based on Torah sources.
If you are not coming from the same religion as chareidim, then it is totally inappropriate to demand they explain their religious reasoning to somebody of a different religion. They should be treated as a religious minority that has is prohibited from sending their sons to the army, and be accomodated. Now, if it is too burdensome for the rest of the population to accommodate them, that's another story. But I doubt that's the case, most of the complaints are about the monstrous unfairness of it all. If people would just realize they are dealing with members of a sincere religious group who can't just decide to change their whole religion, it wouldn't seem so unfair to them.
People are angry at NK for being literal Nazi collaborators, but nobody wants them serving in the IDF. I doubt too many people have much of a problem with Satmar or Toldos Aharon unless they are confusing them with NK.
Even Yair Lapid doesn't want to draft Satmar and Toldos Aharon members.
You can't decide not to 'recognise' the state you live in. It doesn't work like that. How about you unilaterally declare your house independent of wherever you live, you don't recognise the country you live in and claim you are therefor exempt from all taxes, laws etc. See how far that gets you in court.
"You can't decide not to 'recognise' the state you live in"
NK, Satmar and (especially) the Arabs do it and they manage just fine. The haredim are already disengaged from Israeli society. They aren't "Israeli" at all and if they are asked what country they are from they say "Eretz Yisrael", not "the State of Israel".
Sure, anybody can say or claim what they like. If a NK chap would bash up his spouse, Israel will prosecute him and convict him. And he can shout 'he doesn't recognise the state' until he dies. It won't help him. And the converse is that when if he goes to the local hospital having broken his leg, the hospital will not refuse to treat him on the basis 'he doesn't recognise the state'. It works both ways buddy.
Again, go and unilaterally declare your house part of an independent country, as you don't recognise the US (let's assume you live in the US) and therefore exempt yourself for all laws and taxes.
If I were ever drafted to fight for the US, I would refuse to fight and so would tens of millions of others. That's why there will never be a draft again. I'm not sure what point you think you are making.
Again. You have no way of knowing whether or not tens of millions would refuse to fight. Why don't tens of millions all refuse to pay their mortgages? Pay their taxes?
My point is you can't simply refuse to recognise the stare you live in. And nothing you have said has shown otherwise.
"Again. You have no way of knowing whether or not tens of millions would refuse to fight. Why don't tens of millions all refuse to pay their mortgages? Pay their taxes?"
Because there is a limit. During Vietnam, plenty refused to serve but continued to pay taxes. I would never consider refusing to pay my taxes but there is no way that I'd agree to go fight in Ukraine, or anywhere else, for that matter. Jail, firing squad, whatever, there is no way that I am fighting for the United States and neither would most other Americans. If you don't recognize that fact, that is your problem, not mine.
Even Yair Lapid doesn't advocate forcibly conscripting the haredim because he knows damn well that the IDF would lose that battle just like it loses against Palestinian rock throwers. Lapid advocates instead to take away yeshiva funding for rabbis who don't send an agreed upon number of recruits to the army. Can you imagine how humiliated the state of Israel would be if it tried to jail the haredim who refused to enlist? Did you learn nothing from Covid?
The point is, nobody is calling to draft NK or the Arabs. Nobody wants to draft them because everyone knows that they hate the State and either don't care what happens to it or they actively oppose it. If the mainstream haredi leadership would adopt a position as hostile to the state as Satmar has, the chilonim would drop all the "draft the haredim" nonsense.
The point that I have been trying to make is that it is the mainstream haredi leadership that has created this situation by having such an inconsistent attitude towards the state. You can agree or disagree with the Satmar position towards the state, but it is logically consistent. But the mainstream haredim are all over the place: theologically they appear to have a position indistinguishable from Satmar but politically they clearly do value having a close partnership with the state. Pick a lane.
Most chilonim believe that the haredim love the state and want to integrate into Israeli society. If the chiloni public can be made to understand that the haredim want nothing to do with them and truly don't care if the state disappears, they will stop all this garbage about integration. In fact, knowing Israeli chilonim, they will even proceed to declare that they never wanted to integrate (i.e. secularize/uncle Tom'ize ala the RZs) the haredim in the first place.
"If the mainstream haredi leadership would adopt a position as hostile to the state as Satmar has, the chilonim would drop all the "draft the haredim" nonsense."
Yes I do. There is no drive to draft Satmar and NK. If UTJ had a similar position as those groups, nobody would speak of drafting the haredim.
Hundreds of Hilltop Youth have already been excused from service simply by telling the recruiters that they hate the state and the army and won't honor the IDF's rules of engagement or follow orders to expel Jews from their homes. The IDF doesn't imprison them because the IDF is weak as a spider's web and knows that they would lose. And that is just against a handful of teenage misfits, imagine who badly the IDF would crumble against hundreds of thousands of haredim backed up by hundreds of thousands more in America.
Hammer, WADR, as I wrote before, most of those who actually advocate drafting Charedim, include Satmar and NK.
Indeed, most secularists don't really understand the difference between different groups of Charedim (many are so clueless that they don't now the difference between RZ and Charedim!)
I'm not talking about your average chiloni on the street, who probably doesn't really care about this issue either way, I'm talking about the Israeli Democracy Institute types who understand all the nuances of haredi culture. They DEFINITELY don't want to attempt to draft Satmar as they openly admit that Satmar would crush them.
Ben Gurion told Leibowitz that he would never form a government without the haredim as he wanted total Zionist control over the haredim (there was never any need for state control over the RZs as the RZs are state worshipping zombies regardless). BG was a very smart man. To paraphrase R' Kahane, "there are no good chilonim and bad chilonim, only smart chilonim and stupid chilonim". I'm not concerned about the stupid ones.
So are you going to retire your blog? If Slifkinism is a different religion, you should ignore it like you ignore those blogs claiming J is moshiach and Cathlocism is the only true religion.
Looking forward some really yeshivish hair-splitting pilpul as you now thrash out your position.
The Rishonim thought that, so it can't be such a terrible thought, can it?
Don't give me all that 'we follow the shulchan oruch' stuff. Books upon books can be written covering all the matters various groups do not follow the shulchan oruch, even in propert d'oreysohs (ayin 'sirchos') - go ask the chassidim why they have abolished bemah madlikin tonight. Gaon and the Chazon Ish were pretty charedi - none have issues arguing with the shulchan oruch.
In other words, a long word salad with zero practical ramifications. And nobody that follows Slifkinism is confused about anything. You just call them 'confused' to put them down.
I was expecting better yeshivish lomdishe pilpul than they are 'confused'
Indeed. And nobody has the right to unilaterally declare themseves a different religion thereby absolving themselves from dealing with difficult issues and questions. It's called a cop-out b'laaz.
Why not? It's no different than declaring yourself a different religion than Christianity. And it's not unilateral. The secularists are pretty empathetic that chareidism represents a hopeless distortion of Judaism. So they also agree it is a separate religion.
1) The secularists being pretty empathatic that chareidism is a hopeless distortion of Judaism is not the same as them being pretty empathatic that charedisism is a different religioun. Words means things. That is YOU superimposing your strange ideas on them.
2) You do not limit your claim to the secularists anyway. You mantain the same about the Modox. You are moving goalposts.
Details matter in learning and should also matter when you wield the bell, book and candle.
Chareidim in Israel clearly do not claim to be different religion to the rest of the Jewish population in Israel, so this post, like most of the others, is a load of nonsense. Again, some blogger in Lakewood can't just decide that chareidism is a different religion to attempt to resolve difficult and painful issues.
I have family members who've been in the army, and they openly acknowledge how "messed up" of a place it is.
They just don't care, because they have societal pressures based on secular zionism to serve in the army at all costs.
If you care about the binyan ruchni of a person, and not only care, but consider it of prime importance, you will immediately see why IDF service is a massive issue.
On a different and unrelated note, can anyone say with a straight face that secular zionism is still alive? Remember that idea that if we only had a state and lived like all the goyim we would solve anti-semitism and everything would be great? Yeah good luck with that.
If charedi Judaism demanded to be recognized as a different religion from Zionist Judaism, this means that it wouldn't get state funding, and its adherents wouldn't be able to get jobs in the rabbinate.
That's why charedim would never be interested in making such a demand.
From a friend, eh? I wonder what the friend thinks "Zionist Judaism" is. Is it Michael Abraham's Judaism? Is it Natan Slifkin's Judaism? Is it Tzohar's Judaism? Does he think the Zionist Rabbinate shares their hashkafos? Is your friend even aware that there are many different streams of "Zionist Judaism"? I would usually assume the friend is just clueless, but he seems most self-assuredly clueless, a bad sign.
Moshe Rabbeinu’s question to the בני גד & בני ראובן is very clear… we don’t need a shoehorn to try to twist his words… look at the אורח חיים הקדוש׳s comment it’s very clear … everyone must go to the army, learning Torah was not an exemption. If you want to say that in Moshe’s days the army consisted of only צדיקים then I say let’s open the doors of Ponovitz and Mir and draft them .. your fancy words don’t change the facts … even a child know and understands Moshe’s question.
Sorry, that's not how Torah works...You can't just quote an out-of-context pasuk and then start hollering as if you have an unanswerable argument. It's like some guy yelling about how the Torah says "an eye for an eye". It just doesn't work that way.
People who care about religion cannot allow themselves to be in an army hierarchy ruled by people who at best are irreligious and at worst are virulently anti-religious.
It's as simple as that.
Which makes your comparison the bnei Gad ubnei Reuven utterly irrelevant, and actually quite stupid.
Remember that Moshe Rabbeinu broke the luchos when he came down form the Har. Imagine what he'd do if he saw the modern State of Israel, secular and proud. Rachmana litzlan.
"The reason why the value of preservation of one’s own life does not supersede the responsibility of army service is because society considers it an honor to die for one’s nation. “Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.”- “It is sweet and fitting to die for one's country”. "
That's not the Jewish reason so that rejoinder is irrelevant. The Jewish reason is some form of gezeiros hakosuv, the torah mandates an army and the normal hilchos sakonoh are suspended. Similar to parnossoh when a higher lever of risk is permitted based on the possuk 'ki bnafsho yovi lachmo".
There is a certain bloodlust in this demand for Charedim to give their "fair share" to the war effort. They want MORE death, not less. When distilled, this is exactly what they call for. It's perverse.
Lost in the anger and recriminations are questions on things like:
1. What is the point of this war?
2. Does its reported execution align with the stated goals?
3. Is it just a repeat performance, writ large, of previous conflicts?
And so forth.
There is also the utter pointlessness of all the anger and hatred. Regarding the war and medina, I believe the situation is more dire than is being reported through official channels. There is no military solution.
Achdus doesn't mean what they think it means. It means seeing less other in your brother. That's it. Yet they see even more. And then redefine achdus as something it is not.
As a related aside. The other day, my wife received this letter through the grapevine from a close family friend who lives in America, asking her opinion on it. It sounded like he was expecting sympathy, but she let her very opinionated fingers do the talking and told him this woman and all like her are very vile for the hatred they can't seem to stop spewing, even during a conflict such as we are going through now. He respects her opinion, and knows we have sons who both served in combat units, so hopefully he will be swayed to see the situation with greater understanding. Another loss for the Rationalists.
To restore the credibility of the Yishmael Defense Forces and to keep Bibi out of prison. That's it. This isn't some holy war (although I believe it is going to accidentally turn into one, the IDF is so inept that it will manage to turn what should have been a 48 hour military operation into WW3)
"2. Does its reported execution align with the stated goals?"
What stated goals? Iron Swords is Lebanon II level of operational incoherence. The IDF literally has no idea what it is doing.
"3. Is it just a repeat performance, writ large, of previous conflicts?"
I'm assuming this is a rhetorical question. The only reason Israel hasn't surrendered already is because it can't do so before the hostages are returned. But Hamas can't return the hostages until the international community pledges aid for rebuilding and Israel commits to leaving Gaza City and releases every Hamasnik currently in Israeli jails. But Israel can't agree to those terms while the wounds are still so fresh so instead our captives are going to have to rot for another year or so while this nonsense continues.
"There is also the utter pointlessness of all the anger and hatred"
I'm not on the ground over there but I really do feel like there is less inter Jewish hatred since Oct 7. We still can't stand each other but I don't feel like we despise each other like we did a few months ago. I'm not the most extreme person I know and even my views towards the Israeli chilonim have dramatically softened after what happened. We've gone from being essentially separate nations to being merely a severely dysfunctional family. Even Sifkin I don't think hates the haredim, he just has some mental complex that probably requires psychiatric treatment
"There is no military solution."
I completely agree. Totally unwinnable war and it was from the very beginning. The only solution is Moshiach and anyone who says otherwise is lying to themselves.
The IDF executes policy. It doesn't set it. The publicly stated goals at the political level were the return of the hostages and destruction of Hamas.
You're right. There is less hatred in general. Slifkin may not hate Charedim, but hate is as hate does, and he acts hateful and incites others to join him. He admits to being bitter and angry, which preceded the war. He gets no pass from me.
It kinda does. The IDF is an extremely political army. I could definitely see the IDF refusing orders to bomb Iran or something if Bibi gave such an order. Pre Oct 7th, there was at least some concern that the IDF would carry out a coup to save the High Court. Likewise, the IDF would almost certainly refuse an order to reoccupy Gaza.
"The publicly stated goals at the political level were the return of the hostages and destruction of Hamas."
There were always caveats on the latter. Destroying Hamas means reoccupying Gaza and there is no chance that the IDF would ever agree to do that. If Israel wanted Hamas destroyed it would have been done by now.
The real goal from day 1 has been to get the hostages back and then return to the status quo ante but to inflict enough damage on Gaza so that it doesn't appear to be a humiliating defeat for Israel and the IDF. But of course the IDF/Gov can't come out and say that.
In many ways world leaders are actors in a scripted production. With few exceptions, no one gets to rise too far without taking a ticket. They are not independent actors. They don't get to veer too far off the reservation, to mix metaphors. Psyops abound on every side and faction.
It won't matter in the end. They have their plans, while Hashem has His plan.
Footnote 22 is very silly. As if what the Baal HaTanya writes in the Tanya demonstrates that he would approve of playing sports on Shabbos. This is article is not quite secularist, but shows קלות הדעת.
That's the first time I heard that the Mesilas Yesharim contradicts the Halachic Man! Does he think Pirkei Avos also contradicts the Halachic Man? Do they not learn Mesilas Yesharim in YU? In Gush? Is it against their whole philosophy?
But even if he is right, this is very different than the secularist philosophy, as I describe.
"The ones who advocate for drafting yeshiva students point to Moshe’s dictum “Shall your brothers go out to war while you remain?” as an enduring moral argument"
Seems my comments triggered Dr Slifkin's latest post.
I don't have much more to say (especially since he limited comments on his latest post.) But I would like to recommend that anyone who understands Hebrew watch the actual video. https://www.kolhaemet.co.il/video/69493
Excellent article, this would also explain why the more religious Zionists don't seem to have nearly as much of an issue with chareidim.
Even though they could argue they "have the best of both". Besides for a few core differences, mostly based around how to look at our relationship with EY, generally there is real mutual respect , because after all we have the same religion.
That's right.
About Natan's latest post: whatever pshat he is saying is not like Rashi and about his specific pshat, see maharsha who answers his huge q, and deals with the text way better than he does
But no, we made up our pshat and we're reading whatever we want into chazal...
And Eli b points out the Rashi thing, but in truth it's more than just Rashi; that is the simplest reading of the gemara. For someone who likes "pashut pshat"like the pashtanei mikra, he isn't reading the gemara in it's simplest form. The gemara knows how to talk and said that it was his first study. True it then brings a Pasuk but the main thing is the words of the gemara obviously. As for the pasuk, again, see maharsha. (Much more parsimonious)
Why is it the 'simplest reading of the gemoroh'? Rashi has added in the word 'supported'/'helped' (PS I don't know why NS reads into Rashi 'victorious', Rashi doesn't say that either) that the gemoroh does not say. The fact that you believe that it is the 'simplest reading of the gemorroh' shows a weakness in your ability 'to learn'.
Anyway, what does the gemoroh mean in the converse 'Were it not for Yoav, Dovid could not be involved in tzedoko u'mishpot'? Why not? Torah protects, no? Shouldn't need Yoav at all?
for everyone who is not @test, the answers are pretty straight forward:
Dovid did not learn so Yoav can be available to go to war and not win. that would be a totally meaningless thing to say. what the heck is the purpose of yoav being available to go to war if not to win? obviously it is talking about being successful at war.
but regardless, i wasn't even talking about that point. i was talking about the "learning torah" vs. "sitting on beis din." the gemara says explicitly that it is referring to dovid's torah study. yes the gemara brings a pasuk, but the gemara says what it wants to say. the maharsha deals with the pasuk, and as it turns out, learning is a goal to know Hashem's torah which allows for teaching a paskening later on, which is exactly what we are valuing!
as far as test's last question, should we not need yoav at all, this is one of the misnomers where anti-chareidim attack us, because they don't get our position. we already hashed this out but it went over ******'s head, see here: https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-letter-of-the-mothers/comment/47020862
"what the heck is the purpose of yoav being available to go to war if not to win"
You are confusing purpose with result. Dovid and Yoav were both soldiers (shocking isn't it?). The gemoroh is pointing out that becuase Yoav took the role of general, Dovid was able to take the role of mishpot and tzedek and was not needed for battle. In other words, the chiddush is that only because Yoav went to battle, Dovid was able to learn. And vice versa.
Who is faciliating whom? They are both needed, torah alone is not enough. That is the chiddush of the gemoroh.
Winning has nothing to do with it. You can understand the gemoroh without using the word 'winning'.
It's not complicated.
rashi says that in the "zchus" of dovid learning, yoav went to battle - clearly referring to winning
btw test, i'm not sure why we can't have this very same conversation without the 3 yr old put downs. this could've been a normal back and forth. i'm not here to *win* i'm here to *learn* and i'm more than happy to learn from you if i make a mistake. but you decided to start off with some snide rip on nobody. you could've and should've just asked and discussed, i would've answered and we'd both come out wiser.
as always, i love you buddy, peace
I know what rashi says. That is not the point here. The point is the gemoroh does not say it.
Have a nice life test, I love you buddy.
We know what his latest post about because comments are restricted to paid subscribers.
(this is not totally on topic, more related to that lengthy convo below in this comment section but...)
just wanna say for the record (at risk of losing some friends here:) i don't think that Natan is an אפיקורס - gemara in sanhedrin (מאי אהני לן רבנן) notwithstanding. halachically, i'd (possibly ask a שאלה למעשה but i would be shocked if was actually אסור to) drink his wine etc. i'm not actually paskening but... i think the first point of order is understanding the difference between an apikores and an am haaretz. why is an am haaretz, who really doesn't appreciate torah scholars properly, not an apikores? i imagine he would also share similar sentiment to מאי אהני לן רבנן.
the other question is, what about someone who is raised with a more Hirshian twist, and is made to believe that we live in this world to fix it and live amongst the goyim and we're supposed to be worldly and understand science and where torah isn't the center. even if because of this shita they come to an entirely different worldview about the role of torah and our gedolim, are they truly beyond the pale? i would consider this amaratzus, someone who doesn't appreciate that reb hirsch zt'l himself was a real, true torah scholar first and foremost. that he understood the tremendous and most important value of shevet Levi.
a lot of what Natan says is pretty borderline, but i really don't think he qualifies as the halachic apikoros. (besides the fact that he was hurt by the system and had backing from some rabbanim, whether they were right or not in the given situation. but do we think his Challenge of Creation was so clearly כפירה? and yet there were some intense reactions gong on where certain lines were definitely blurred) this is obviously a big sugya and i wonder, but perhaps these folks are just wrong, as in amaratzim who don't appreciate the value of torah, nebach, but כופרים ממש? not sure. i'm נוטה not. I'd love to hear feedback.
and of course i know all of the many different shitos he's espoused, and i strongly disagree with a whole bunch of them, and i definitely think he has been a(n unwitting?) rabble-rouser, but if so, we can still talk to him and hear him out, and even concede to the many times he is right and help put it into context.
All this heresy calling is straight out revenge for his anti-chareidi stance and posts. Nothing more lomdish than that.
Childish really. NS is anti-charedie OTT in recent months, fair enough, but a real ben torah/rov would just distinquishedly ignore (as in fact they do). But as banana wrote, this is all generated by a 'bunch of bored ba'alei battim'. What do you expect from bored ba'alei battim? They don't claim to be 'benei torah'.
The heresy calling is not vengeful.
It's simply because so much of what he says is unfortunately, and disgracefully, dripping with actualy heresy, or borderline heresy.
It just is.
Don't be silly. Nearly every post starts by pointing out Natan's attacks on chareidim. This whole business is silly revenge. Ever heard of bias?
If he was a heretic, I can assure you the powers that be would ensure chareidim do not flock to his museam.
We're not on the same page test, just to be clear. I think Natan says some things that are scarily borderline. The heresy claims are not unfounded at all. I'm just saying that I don't think he is an actual kofer. But any kal daas can super easily transition from his position towards actual kfira with little trouble.
At the same time, a lot of the issues he raises are real. The questions from science are far from simple. Many of the issues he has with chareidim are not unfounded. His concerns about leadership in the chareidi world are not silly. He just goes about it as an outsider who doesn't get the whole picture.
That's ok. Your being to vague to debate, but many great thinkers in our history have been accused of heresy. From the Rambam to Rav Crescas to Rav Emded to Rav Yonasan Eibeshchitz to the lord rabbi dr Sacks.
It sort of goes with the territory.
Natan doesn't ignore this blog, even though he could and should.
And your point is?
More childish behaviour, right? He doesn't ignore this blog, so we won't ignore him. Blah blah blah
Go write an article for the Flat Earth Society and get Mizrahi to declare NS a heretic.
My point? Maybe it's you who are wrong.
הנה זה מגלה פנים בתורה: כגון
האומר 'מה הועילו אצלנו לומדי תורה? אם חכמו, חכם
לנפשם, ולא נחלה לנו בשכרם'. והנה כחשו במה שכתוב
(בתורה (בראשית ח כ'ו) "ונשאתי לכל המקום בעבורם" (שערי תשובה ג: קמ'ח
Wow, you really nailed it Reb Happy!
"This doesn’t mean that chareidim don’t need to justify their interpretation to non-secularist Datiim, who generally make use of halachic arguments in favor of the draft"
Every halachic argument in favor of the draft presumes that the current state has legitimacy. This is the danger of not arguing using absolutes. If the haredim would just say, "we don't recognize the state and will will never risk our lives to protect it", this whole controversy would go away forever.
There is a reason nobody even pretends to want Satmar and NK to be drafted.
Why are governments the issue?
The fact is, the PEOPLE in Israel are in danger. They need protection, whatever the State is. Soldiers are necessary, we can't live without them when we have so many enemies surrounding us.
exactly
I believe this is a weak argument that most non-chassidim don't hold of, because they benefit from the government, such as the health care, roads, water, etc. Even if we were dealing with lehavdil Soviet Russia, you can't just say you don't recognize the state as if it's not there.
Not sure if most israeli chasidim take that position either.
Well if the Haredim do in fact value the state, then it is fact totally legitimate to expect them to fight for it like everyone else does.
I would still oppose mandatory conscription of the haredim and I opposed it even when I was still a Zionist, but if the haredim do really feel connected to the state then I think it is wrong for them to demand a class wide exemption from the draft. Well, not wrong for demanding mass exemptions but wrong for not being willing to make more than the token compromises that they have so far. The rabbis could at least send the OTD'ers to the army and offer to form a haredi auxillary militia or something.
The way I view it is like this. If you are coming from the same religion as chareidim, it is appropriate to ask the why they don't fight, and dispute their decision not too, based on Torah sources.
If you are not coming from the same religion as chareidim, then it is totally inappropriate to demand they explain their religious reasoning to somebody of a different religion. They should be treated as a religious minority that has is prohibited from sending their sons to the army, and be accomodated. Now, if it is too burdensome for the rest of the population to accommodate them, that's another story. But I doubt that's the case, most of the complaints are about the monstrous unfairness of it all. If people would just realize they are dealing with members of a sincere religious group who can't just decide to change their whole religion, it wouldn't seem so unfair to them.
If the haredim consider themselves part of the state, the non haredim will always resent them refusing to serve. How could it be otherwise?
Again, nobody resents Satmar or the Arabs for not serving
That's not true about Satmar and NK. Many more people are angrier with them than with mainstream חרדים
People are angry at NK for being literal Nazi collaborators, but nobody wants them serving in the IDF. I doubt too many people have much of a problem with Satmar or Toldos Aharon unless they are confusing them with NK.
Even Yair Lapid doesn't want to draft Satmar and Toldos Aharon members.
You can't decide not to 'recognise' the state you live in. It doesn't work like that. How about you unilaterally declare your house independent of wherever you live, you don't recognise the country you live in and claim you are therefor exempt from all taxes, laws etc. See how far that gets you in court.
"You can't decide not to 'recognise' the state you live in"
NK, Satmar and (especially) the Arabs do it and they manage just fine. The haredim are already disengaged from Israeli society. They aren't "Israeli" at all and if they are asked what country they are from they say "Eretz Yisrael", not "the State of Israel".
Sure, anybody can say or claim what they like. If a NK chap would bash up his spouse, Israel will prosecute him and convict him. And he can shout 'he doesn't recognise the state' until he dies. It won't help him. And the converse is that when if he goes to the local hospital having broken his leg, the hospital will not refuse to treat him on the basis 'he doesn't recognise the state'. It works both ways buddy.
Again, go and unilaterally declare your house part of an independent country, as you don't recognise the US (let's assume you live in the US) and therefore exempt yourself for all laws and taxes.
Good luck with that.
If I were ever drafted to fight for the US, I would refuse to fight and so would tens of millions of others. That's why there will never be a draft again. I'm not sure what point you think you are making.
Again. You have no way of knowing whether or not tens of millions would refuse to fight. Why don't tens of millions all refuse to pay their mortgages? Pay their taxes?
My point is you can't simply refuse to recognise the stare you live in. And nothing you have said has shown otherwise.
"Again. You have no way of knowing whether or not tens of millions would refuse to fight. Why don't tens of millions all refuse to pay their mortgages? Pay their taxes?"
Because there is a limit. During Vietnam, plenty refused to serve but continued to pay taxes. I would never consider refusing to pay my taxes but there is no way that I'd agree to go fight in Ukraine, or anywhere else, for that matter. Jail, firing squad, whatever, there is no way that I am fighting for the United States and neither would most other Americans. If you don't recognize that fact, that is your problem, not mine.
Even Yair Lapid doesn't advocate forcibly conscripting the haredim because he knows damn well that the IDF would lose that battle just like it loses against Palestinian rock throwers. Lapid advocates instead to take away yeshiva funding for rabbis who don't send an agreed upon number of recruits to the army. Can you imagine how humiliated the state of Israel would be if it tried to jail the haredim who refused to enlist? Did you learn nothing from Covid?
The point is, nobody is calling to draft NK or the Arabs. Nobody wants to draft them because everyone knows that they hate the State and either don't care what happens to it or they actively oppose it. If the mainstream haredi leadership would adopt a position as hostile to the state as Satmar has, the chilonim would drop all the "draft the haredim" nonsense.
The point that I have been trying to make is that it is the mainstream haredi leadership that has created this situation by having such an inconsistent attitude towards the state. You can agree or disagree with the Satmar position towards the state, but it is logically consistent. But the mainstream haredim are all over the place: theologically they appear to have a position indistinguishable from Satmar but politically they clearly do value having a close partnership with the state. Pick a lane.
Most chilonim believe that the haredim love the state and want to integrate into Israeli society. If the chiloni public can be made to understand that the haredim want nothing to do with them and truly don't care if the state disappears, they will stop all this garbage about integration. In fact, knowing Israeli chilonim, they will even proceed to declare that they never wanted to integrate (i.e. secularize/uncle Tom'ize ala the RZs) the haredim in the first place.
"If the mainstream haredi leadership would adopt a position as hostile to the state as Satmar has, the chilonim would drop all the "draft the haredim" nonsense."
You have absolutely no way of knowing that.
Yes I do. There is no drive to draft Satmar and NK. If UTJ had a similar position as those groups, nobody would speak of drafting the haredim.
Hundreds of Hilltop Youth have already been excused from service simply by telling the recruiters that they hate the state and the army and won't honor the IDF's rules of engagement or follow orders to expel Jews from their homes. The IDF doesn't imprison them because the IDF is weak as a spider's web and knows that they would lose. And that is just against a handful of teenage misfits, imagine who badly the IDF would crumble against hundreds of thousands of haredim backed up by hundreds of thousands more in America.
Hammer, WADR, as I wrote before, most of those who actually advocate drafting Charedim, include Satmar and NK.
Indeed, most secularists don't really understand the difference between different groups of Charedim (many are so clueless that they don't now the difference between RZ and Charedim!)
I'm not talking about your average chiloni on the street, who probably doesn't really care about this issue either way, I'm talking about the Israeli Democracy Institute types who understand all the nuances of haredi culture. They DEFINITELY don't want to attempt to draft Satmar as they openly admit that Satmar would crush them.
Ben Gurion told Leibowitz that he would never form a government without the haredim as he wanted total Zionist control over the haredim (there was never any need for state control over the RZs as the RZs are state worshipping zombies regardless). BG was a very smart man. To paraphrase R' Kahane, "there are no good chilonim and bad chilonim, only smart chilonim and stupid chilonim". I'm not concerned about the stupid ones.
No. Just the עדה חרידית. Many chareidim fought in the war of independence
This is similar to my post here, that they are essentially two different religions. https://open.substack.com/pub/daastorah/p/is-the-torah-divine-298?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=33pit
How would you respond to this? אין הכי נמי?
https://open.substack.com/pub/scottkahn/p/killing-yourself-for-the-torah?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=33pit
I responded there.
You and zd did a fantastic job!!
Thanks
So are you going to retire your blog? If Slifkinism is a different religion, you should ignore it like you ignore those blogs claiming J is moshiach and Cathlocism is the only true religion.
Looking forward some really yeshivish hair-splitting pilpul as you now thrash out your position.
Actually, that was in the back of my mind. Not sure if it will happen lemaaseh, since people are still confused...
Exactly. Even if it is a different religion, people don't know that. Most commentators think they have true Judaism based on rishonim
The Rishonim thought that, so it can't be such a terrible thought, can it?
Don't give me all that 'we follow the shulchan oruch' stuff. Books upon books can be written covering all the matters various groups do not follow the shulchan oruch, even in propert d'oreysohs (ayin 'sirchos') - go ask the chassidim why they have abolished bemah madlikin tonight. Gaon and the Chazon Ish were pretty charedi - none have issues arguing with the shulchan oruch.
I was talking about distorting the rishonim bro
In other words, a long word salad with zero practical ramifications. And nobody that follows Slifkinism is confused about anything. You just call them 'confused' to put them down.
I was expecting better yeshivish lomdishe pilpul than they are 'confused'
I have nothing more to say on the topic.
There is an implied practical ramification to the "word salad".
That it is naked and needs dressing?
That...and also...test is retarded, since he lacks basic comprehension.
Indeed. And nobody has the right to unilaterally declare themseves a different religion thereby absolving themselves from dealing with difficult issues and questions. It's called a cop-out b'laaz.
Why not? It's no different than declaring yourself a different religion than Christianity. And it's not unilateral. The secularists are pretty empathetic that chareidism represents a hopeless distortion of Judaism. So they also agree it is a separate religion.
1) The secularists being pretty empathatic that chareidism is a hopeless distortion of Judaism is not the same as them being pretty empathatic that charedisism is a different religioun. Words means things. That is YOU superimposing your strange ideas on them.
2) You do not limit your claim to the secularists anyway. You mantain the same about the Modox. You are moving goalposts.
Details matter in learning and should also matter when you wield the bell, book and candle.
Chareidim in Israel clearly do not claim to be different religion to the rest of the Jewish population in Israel, so this post, like most of the others, is a load of nonsense. Again, some blogger in Lakewood can't just decide that chareidism is a different religion to attempt to resolve difficult and painful issues.
I have family members who've been in the army, and they openly acknowledge how "messed up" of a place it is.
They just don't care, because they have societal pressures based on secular zionism to serve in the army at all costs.
If you care about the binyan ruchni of a person, and not only care, but consider it of prime importance, you will immediately see why IDF service is a massive issue.
On a different and unrelated note, can anyone say with a straight face that secular zionism is still alive? Remember that idea that if we only had a state and lived like all the goyim we would solve anti-semitism and everything would be great? Yeah good luck with that.
If charedi Judaism demanded to be recognized as a different religion from Zionist Judaism, this means that it wouldn't get state funding, and its adherents wouldn't be able to get jobs in the rabbinate.
That's why charedim would never be interested in making such a demand.
From a friend, eh? I wonder what the friend thinks "Zionist Judaism" is. Is it Michael Abraham's Judaism? Is it Natan Slifkin's Judaism? Is it Tzohar's Judaism? Does he think the Zionist Rabbinate shares their hashkafos? Is your friend even aware that there are many different streams of "Zionist Judaism"? I would usually assume the friend is just clueless, but he seems most self-assuredly clueless, a bad sign.
This is from a friend.
Moshe Rabbeinu’s question to the בני גד & בני ראובן is very clear… we don’t need a shoehorn to try to twist his words… look at the אורח חיים הקדוש׳s comment it’s very clear … everyone must go to the army, learning Torah was not an exemption. If you want to say that in Moshe’s days the army consisted of only צדיקים then I say let’s open the doors of Ponovitz and Mir and draft them .. your fancy words don’t change the facts … even a child know and understands Moshe’s question.
Sorry, that's not how Torah works...You can't just quote an out-of-context pasuk and then start hollering as if you have an unanswerable argument. It's like some guy yelling about how the Torah says "an eye for an eye". It just doesn't work that way.
People who care about religion cannot allow themselves to be in an army hierarchy ruled by people who at best are irreligious and at worst are virulently anti-religious.
It's as simple as that.
Which makes your comparison the bnei Gad ubnei Reuven utterly irrelevant, and actually quite stupid.
Remember that Moshe Rabbeinu broke the luchos when he came down form the Har. Imagine what he'd do if he saw the modern State of Israel, secular and proud. Rachmana litzlan.
"The reason why the value of preservation of one’s own life does not supersede the responsibility of army service is because society considers it an honor to die for one’s nation. “Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.”- “It is sweet and fitting to die for one's country”. "
That's not the Jewish reason so that rejoinder is irrelevant. The Jewish reason is some form of gezeiros hakosuv, the torah mandates an army and the normal hilchos sakonoh are suspended. Similar to parnossoh when a higher lever of risk is permitted based on the possuk 'ki bnafsho yovi lachmo".
Abraham is not making a Jewish argument. If you read my post or read his post, he is giving a different reason.
There is a certain bloodlust in this demand for Charedim to give their "fair share" to the war effort. They want MORE death, not less. When distilled, this is exactly what they call for. It's perverse.
Lost in the anger and recriminations are questions on things like:
1. What is the point of this war?
2. Does its reported execution align with the stated goals?
3. Is it just a repeat performance, writ large, of previous conflicts?
And so forth.
There is also the utter pointlessness of all the anger and hatred. Regarding the war and medina, I believe the situation is more dire than is being reported through official channels. There is no military solution.
Achdus doesn't mean what they think it means. It means seeing less other in your brother. That's it. Yet they see even more. And then redefine achdus as something it is not.
As a related aside. The other day, my wife received this letter through the grapevine from a close family friend who lives in America, asking her opinion on it. It sounded like he was expecting sympathy, but she let her very opinionated fingers do the talking and told him this woman and all like her are very vile for the hatred they can't seem to stop spewing, even during a conflict such as we are going through now. He respects her opinion, and knows we have sons who both served in combat units, so hopefully he will be swayed to see the situation with greater understanding. Another loss for the Rationalists.
"1. What is the point of this war?"
To restore the credibility of the Yishmael Defense Forces and to keep Bibi out of prison. That's it. This isn't some holy war (although I believe it is going to accidentally turn into one, the IDF is so inept that it will manage to turn what should have been a 48 hour military operation into WW3)
"2. Does its reported execution align with the stated goals?"
What stated goals? Iron Swords is Lebanon II level of operational incoherence. The IDF literally has no idea what it is doing.
"3. Is it just a repeat performance, writ large, of previous conflicts?"
I'm assuming this is a rhetorical question. The only reason Israel hasn't surrendered already is because it can't do so before the hostages are returned. But Hamas can't return the hostages until the international community pledges aid for rebuilding and Israel commits to leaving Gaza City and releases every Hamasnik currently in Israeli jails. But Israel can't agree to those terms while the wounds are still so fresh so instead our captives are going to have to rot for another year or so while this nonsense continues.
"There is also the utter pointlessness of all the anger and hatred"
I'm not on the ground over there but I really do feel like there is less inter Jewish hatred since Oct 7. We still can't stand each other but I don't feel like we despise each other like we did a few months ago. I'm not the most extreme person I know and even my views towards the Israeli chilonim have dramatically softened after what happened. We've gone from being essentially separate nations to being merely a severely dysfunctional family. Even Sifkin I don't think hates the haredim, he just has some mental complex that probably requires psychiatric treatment
"There is no military solution."
I completely agree. Totally unwinnable war and it was from the very beginning. The only solution is Moshiach and anyone who says otherwise is lying to themselves.
The IDF executes policy. It doesn't set it. The publicly stated goals at the political level were the return of the hostages and destruction of Hamas.
You're right. There is less hatred in general. Slifkin may not hate Charedim, but hate is as hate does, and he acts hateful and incites others to join him. He admits to being bitter and angry, which preceded the war. He gets no pass from me.
"The IDF executes policy. It doesn't set it."
It kinda does. The IDF is an extremely political army. I could definitely see the IDF refusing orders to bomb Iran or something if Bibi gave such an order. Pre Oct 7th, there was at least some concern that the IDF would carry out a coup to save the High Court. Likewise, the IDF would almost certainly refuse an order to reoccupy Gaza.
"The publicly stated goals at the political level were the return of the hostages and destruction of Hamas."
There were always caveats on the latter. Destroying Hamas means reoccupying Gaza and there is no chance that the IDF would ever agree to do that. If Israel wanted Hamas destroyed it would have been done by now.
The real goal from day 1 has been to get the hostages back and then return to the status quo ante but to inflict enough damage on Gaza so that it doesn't appear to be a humiliating defeat for Israel and the IDF. But of course the IDF/Gov can't come out and say that.
I sense you like spar. You make many good points.
There are multiple recorded instances where Reagan issued direct military orders that were not carried out.
I did used to box, actually.
"There are multiple recorded instances where Reagan issued direct military orders that were not carried out."
I didn't know that. They did the same thing to Trump, as well
In many ways world leaders are actors in a scripted production. With few exceptions, no one gets to rise too far without taking a ticket. They are not independent actors. They don't get to veer too far off the reservation, to mix metaphors. Psyops abound on every side and faction.
It won't matter in the end. They have their plans, while Hashem has His plan.
Also, see this: https://thelehrhaus.com/timely-thoughts/rack-up-those-mitzvot/
This line made me crack up
"A lawyer can ensure that our society operates according to tzedek and mishpat — or he can assist in the twisting of tzedek and mishpat."
Also footnote 41, the author solemnly states
"[41] Very few professions seem to be unredeemable, although they do exist, especially within the entertainment and leisure sectors."
Israel has, by far, the highest number of lawyers per capita in the entire world. We could do with less of them.
fewer, not "less"
A boxer and a lawyer.
I was ~meant~ to be a lawyer. Both of my parents were lawyers. But I was too lazy and unmotivated to go the law school
Footnote 22 is very silly. As if what the Baal HaTanya writes in the Tanya demonstrates that he would approve of playing sports on Shabbos. This is article is not quite secularist, but shows קלות הדעת.
That's the first time I heard that the Mesilas Yesharim contradicts the Halachic Man! Does he think Pirkei Avos also contradicts the Halachic Man? Do they not learn Mesilas Yesharim in YU? In Gush? Is it against their whole philosophy?
But even if he is right, this is very different than the secularist philosophy, as I describe.
"The ones who advocate for drafting yeshiva students point to Moshe’s dictum “Shall your brothers go out to war while you remain?” as an enduring moral argument"
Seems my comments triggered Dr Slifkin's latest post.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-letter-of-the-mothers/comment/46898827
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-letter-of-the-mothers/comment/47047138#comment-47066889?utm_source=activity_item
I don't have much more to say (especially since he limited comments on his latest post.) But I would like to recommend that anyone who understands Hebrew watch the actual video. https://www.kolhaemet.co.il/video/69493