I would point out that even before October 7th our friend was kinda petering out in the rationalism department for many months. It seems that the whole paper tiger had basically - finally - run its course and was collapsing under its own vacuity and weirdness (and plenty of help from your honor pointing out both). I'd say its last pathetic gasp was his heavily promoted and almost immediately aborted "rational reasons to be Jewish even if you don't believe in Judaism" series.
So now he's moved full time into garden variety hate spewing demagoguery, to vent the torment of his tortured soul. Which was really the whole point of the "rationalism" hoax in the first place.
No doubt the pendulum will swing back again. I look forward to it, because I love reading your rebuttals...
א מצות עשה מן התורה, לזעוק ולהריע בחצוצרות על כל צרה שתבוא על הציבור, שנאמר "על הצר הצורר אתכם--והרעותם, בחצוצרות" (במדבר י,ט)--כלומר כל דבר שיצר לכם כגון בצורת ודבר וארבה וכיוצא בהן, זעקו עליהן והריעו.
ב ודבר זה, דרך מדרכי התשובה הוא: שבזמן שתבוא צרה ויזעקו לה ויריעו, יידעו הכול שבגלל מעשיהם הרעים הרע להן--ככתוב "עוונותיכם, הטו אלה" (ירמיהו ה,כה) לכם, וזה הוא שיגרום להם להסיר הצרה מעליהם.
ג אבל אם לא יזעקו, ולא יריעו, אלא יאמרו דבר זה ממנהג העולם אירע לנו, וצרה זו נקרוא נקרית--הרי זו דרך אכזרייות, וגורמת להם להידבק במעשיהם הרעים, ותוסיף הצרה וצרות אחרות: הוא שכתוב בתורה, "והלכתם עימי, בקרי. והלכתי עימכם, בחמת קרי" (ויקרא כו,כז-כח), כלומר כשאביא עליכם צרה, כדי שתשובו--אם תאמרו שהוא קרי, אוסיף עליכם חמת אותו קרי.
When bad things happen to chareidim, it's hester ponim, we can't fathom the ways of Hashem, we don't know why he took those particular 'kedoshim', tzadik v'rah lo, yisurim she ahavoh, blah blah blah.
When bad things happen to anybody else, it's due to this aveiroh, that aveiroh, general secularism, internet, bloggers, [insert your pet hate here].
Go figure.
*PS why were those killed in Meron a few years ago given the moniker 'kedoshim'. They were killed due to manslaughter and negligence!
Hey, Testes, great to hear from you again. You must have been itching to get that doozie off your chest. The reason is this: R Feldman is pointing out that the current crisis in Israel is a national calamity similar to the Holocaust, and is likely a result of something that has captured all the nation, i.e. the Zionist ideology that attempted to redefine the Jewish people. Most misfortunes are relevant to the community in a different manner- that they take lessons to heart, and look to their private and personal flaws. Well, tata for now! Best regards to your ex, and better lay off with the hit man plans for your shver!
7. The country is more religious than ever, or has more religious people than ever, or more Torah learning than ever.
The problem with midwits like Slifkin is that he misses the forest for the trees. What he says may be technically true.
But...the country is also more secular than ever. With a war on Torah that reaches ever more strident heights each and every day (the reason Torah Jews are dying in large numbers - which he also notes as if it counters the observation of the huge toll 7 October itself had on the secular population in particular - is part of that war and by design and not happenstance; frum Yidden are intentionally being placed in harm's way). And so forth. He may be 100% observant in all the technical and mechanistic ways as detailed in the Shulchan Aruch, like a rationalist, but he misses the hashkafic spirit of our mesorah entirely.
No offense, but can you explain what you are trying to convey with your name and pic? Maybe I'm just not getting it but it seems a little, um, inappropriate for an otherwise seemingly respectable Torah scholar?
Firstly, when the Meron tragedy occured, the people who slifkin likes complaining about did say it's was sign to the religious community, most prominently R Moshe Meislman שליט"א, who spoke about it to his yeshiva at the time.
Secondly, most charedim are not refraining from calling those who died Kedoshim! They are Kedoshim just like the secular and reform Jews who died in the holocaust, and they will remain that way.
I was hopeful in the immediate aftermath of 10/7 that Slifkin would tone it down a bit. It took no more than a day or two for disprove that notion as wishful thinking.
"The background is that Rav Aharon Feldman explained that the attack in Eretz Yisrael on October 7th was quite possibly retribution for the secular nature of the “Jewish” state of Israel"
This is such a shallow view of how the universe operates. Theoretically, if every Jew on earth in all times had kept all the mitzvahs perfectly, then it is possible that would have prevented Oct 7th (or the Holocaust, or destruction of the 2nd Temple, or of anything else bad that ever happened to us) from happening but that is a totally different universe from saying that Oct 7th, or any other tragedy, is punishment for our sins.
If you smoke three packs of cigarettes a day, you don't ~deserve~ to get lung cancer but your behavior increases the likelihood of it happening.
"The transgressions that the prophets discuss mesh well with a largely secularist society that pays the Torah little heed"
Incorrect. Chareidi society is full of nepotism, favouritism, pandering to the wealthy, bribery, ivus hadin, chanifoh to gevirim, power hungry askonim etc etc. God help any man who is up against a powerful gevir in a typical chareidi beis din.
All the things the nevi'im acharonim wax lyrical about.
The only thing Chareidi society doesn't do is Avoda Zoroh, but gadolotory, rebbe worship and seguloh chasing is pretty close.
It's okay test. You see it as your job to point out these things, even as you keep telling us you're leaving.
Love of money is a problem for all of us. The Yerushalmi says it contributed to the Churban, along with sinas chinam.
Nonetheless, when Eliyahu complained to Hashem that he was the only left, before being told "You're retired!" Hashem said it was not so. There were many who were still faithful to Him. The same today. You are evil for saying all Charedim are like that, when it is far from the truth.
The pesukim are clear that we lost prominence and power over our land due to corruption on the top, but that has nothing to do with why we were slain and butchered. That was for being immoral. Yechezkel is the most clear on that.
And to end off with some whataboutism so you can focus on my weaker statement, it ain't like the MO are so much better. But yes, ציון במשפט תפדה ושביה בצדקה, if this gets better we can increase our chances of greeting Moshiach
I can categorically state the 'MO' beis din system in Israel is better. It's Boduk u'menusah that The more 'heimish' the more corruption and more 'mucking around' endless delays etc etc.
PS Yechezkel is not the only novi. Other nevi'im (trei osor) focus plenty on other things as the reason for destruction, not just immorality.
There are no MO batei dinim in EY (AFAIK). There are many Dati Leumi batei dinim (I am a dayan in one of them).
That's not the same thing.
If you meant the official batei dinim, most of the dayanim are charedi (about 2/3).
I know many dayanim, both charedi and dati leumi, and the overwhelming majority are תלמידי חכמים יראי שמים (I once had a problem with one dayan, and his problem was not corruption but misplaced תמימות)
What percentage is 'overwhelming majority'?- I would expect that the תלמידי חכמים יראי שמים percentage should be nothing less than 100%. Your comment does not full me with confidence. 70%? So three in 10 dayonim are corrupt. Great.
And how many litigants can actually arrange a hearing before the top dayonim in EY? If I want to take my dodgy kablan (who looks very charedi, mikvah every day etc etc) who I allege swindled me to Reb Sariel's beis din in benei berak, can I do so with ease?
A. You have a very curious method of reading texts. I wrote that I know many dayanim, and one of them was too תמים. No one is or was corrupt. So that's 100% not corrupt. The who was too תמים shouldn't be a dayan, out of 100 or so that I know, that's one percent.
B. AFAIK, anyone can go to Rav Sariel's beis din. (You'll have to prove your case, of course, like any other litigant)
First to my main point (which you put as PS after the Whataboutism) I can't say my knowledge of תרי עשר is as good as the rest of Navi, but I said I agree that even Yechezkel blames the destruction on corruption, only the focus of middah kineged middah in the pesukim is of them loosing their prominence as a punishment for corruption, but being killed was for immorality. I have no doubt that is the context in תרי עשר. I know I shouldn't guess like that but your way of reading won't get me nervous.
Now to your other point, MO and Mizrachi have as much in common as chasidim have with Litvaks. ודי למבין.
Second, you don't live in Israel so you have no idea, but I personally have experienced more corruption with an MO school I was in contact with, more that any other Lakewood organization. I won't say that about everyone in MO, but you hearing stories ain't worth much better.
“Now to your other point, MO and Mizrachi have as much in common as chasidim have with Litvaks. ודי למבין.”
You are making the classic yeshivish mistake. Chareidim claim to be holier and more religious than the rest. Except outside a very narrow selection of mitzvos, they quite simply are NOT.
We started about corruption and now its elitism. As it is, last I checked on Rationalist Judaism, the MO have a healthy dose of it too so give me a break.
Gush doesn't have many Dayyanim in the offical batei dinim. In the private batei dinim, a bit more. Usually, the dayyanim from the Gush are in the more Torani sector of Gushnikim.
Whatever you want to call them. I am referring to the 'Rabbanut" system. Their semicha is far more 'proper' and organised than the hemishe chareidi system.
There are only so many gvirim in any community. Extremely few, in fact. By definition. If everyone were gvirim, then no one would be. So you slander all charedim because a few unseemly people have insinuated themselves into positions of power and/or influence. Why? Did you have a bad experience with a beis din during your divorce? Something else?
Amazing as always and great to see you back.
I would point out that even before October 7th our friend was kinda petering out in the rationalism department for many months. It seems that the whole paper tiger had basically - finally - run its course and was collapsing under its own vacuity and weirdness (and plenty of help from your honor pointing out both). I'd say its last pathetic gasp was his heavily promoted and almost immediately aborted "rational reasons to be Jewish even if you don't believe in Judaism" series.
So now he's moved full time into garden variety hate spewing demagoguery, to vent the torment of his tortured soul. Which was really the whole point of the "rationalism" hoax in the first place.
No doubt the pendulum will swing back again. I look forward to it, because I love reading your rebuttals...
משנה תורה, הלכות תעניות, פרק א:
א מצות עשה מן התורה, לזעוק ולהריע בחצוצרות על כל צרה שתבוא על הציבור, שנאמר "על הצר הצורר אתכם--והרעותם, בחצוצרות" (במדבר י,ט)--כלומר כל דבר שיצר לכם כגון בצורת ודבר וארבה וכיוצא בהן, זעקו עליהן והריעו.
ב ודבר זה, דרך מדרכי התשובה הוא: שבזמן שתבוא צרה ויזעקו לה ויריעו, יידעו הכול שבגלל מעשיהם הרעים הרע להן--ככתוב "עוונותיכם, הטו אלה" (ירמיהו ה,כה) לכם, וזה הוא שיגרום להם להסיר הצרה מעליהם.
ג אבל אם לא יזעקו, ולא יריעו, אלא יאמרו דבר זה ממנהג העולם אירע לנו, וצרה זו נקרוא נקרית--הרי זו דרך אכזרייות, וגורמת להם להידבק במעשיהם הרעים, ותוסיף הצרה וצרות אחרות: הוא שכתוב בתורה, "והלכתם עימי, בקרי. והלכתי עימכם, בחמת קרי" (ויקרא כו,כז-כח), כלומר כשאביא עליכם צרה, כדי שתשובו--אם תאמרו שהוא קרי, אוסיף עליכם חמת אותו קרי.
I would love more Torah sources for this dissertation.
Maybe I will write one.
No need.
When bad things happen to chareidim, it's hester ponim, we can't fathom the ways of Hashem, we don't know why he took those particular 'kedoshim', tzadik v'rah lo, yisurim she ahavoh, blah blah blah.
When bad things happen to anybody else, it's due to this aveiroh, that aveiroh, general secularism, internet, bloggers, [insert your pet hate here].
Go figure.
*PS why were those killed in Meron a few years ago given the moniker 'kedoshim'. They were killed due to manslaughter and negligence!
Hey, Testes, great to hear from you again. You must have been itching to get that doozie off your chest. The reason is this: R Feldman is pointing out that the current crisis in Israel is a national calamity similar to the Holocaust, and is likely a result of something that has captured all the nation, i.e. the Zionist ideology that attempted to redefine the Jewish people. Most misfortunes are relevant to the community in a different manner- that they take lessons to heart, and look to their private and personal flaws. Well, tata for now! Best regards to your ex, and better lay off with the hit man plans for your shver!
You forgot:
7. The country is more religious than ever, or has more religious people than ever, or more Torah learning than ever.
The problem with midwits like Slifkin is that he misses the forest for the trees. What he says may be technically true.
But...the country is also more secular than ever. With a war on Torah that reaches ever more strident heights each and every day (the reason Torah Jews are dying in large numbers - which he also notes as if it counters the observation of the huge toll 7 October itself had on the secular population in particular - is part of that war and by design and not happenstance; frum Yidden are intentionally being placed in harm's way). And so forth. He may be 100% observant in all the technical and mechanistic ways as detailed in the Shulchan Aruch, like a rationalist, but he misses the hashkafic spirit of our mesorah entirely.
...ימים על ימי מלך תוסיף
Welcome back! ;)
No offense, but can you explain what you are trying to convey with your name and pic? Maybe I'm just not getting it but it seems a little, um, inappropriate for an otherwise seemingly respectable Torah scholar?
And welcome back to you!
Firstly, when the Meron tragedy occured, the people who slifkin likes complaining about did say it's was sign to the religious community, most prominently R Moshe Meislman שליט"א, who spoke about it to his yeshiva at the time.
Secondly, most charedim are not refraining from calling those who died Kedoshim! They are Kedoshim just like the secular and reform Jews who died in the holocaust, and they will remain that way.
Welcome back and a truly winner-article. My favorite point you made was number 3. Brilliant!
Welcome back! I missed you!
Great article! I especially appreciated your explanation of your absence. It beyond ridiculous at this point that he's still going on.
I was hopeful in the immediate aftermath of 10/7 that Slifkin would tone it down a bit. It took no more than a day or two for disprove that notion as wishful thinking.
"The background is that Rav Aharon Feldman explained that the attack in Eretz Yisrael on October 7th was quite possibly retribution for the secular nature of the “Jewish” state of Israel"
This is such a shallow view of how the universe operates. Theoretically, if every Jew on earth in all times had kept all the mitzvahs perfectly, then it is possible that would have prevented Oct 7th (or the Holocaust, or destruction of the 2nd Temple, or of anything else bad that ever happened to us) from happening but that is a totally different universe from saying that Oct 7th, or any other tragedy, is punishment for our sins.
If you smoke three packs of cigarettes a day, you don't ~deserve~ to get lung cancer but your behavior increases the likelihood of it happening.
"The transgressions that the prophets discuss mesh well with a largely secularist society that pays the Torah little heed"
Incorrect. Chareidi society is full of nepotism, favouritism, pandering to the wealthy, bribery, ivus hadin, chanifoh to gevirim, power hungry askonim etc etc. God help any man who is up against a powerful gevir in a typical chareidi beis din.
All the things the nevi'im acharonim wax lyrical about.
The only thing Chareidi society doesn't do is Avoda Zoroh, but gadolotory, rebbe worship and seguloh chasing is pretty close.
It's okay test. You see it as your job to point out these things, even as you keep telling us you're leaving.
Love of money is a problem for all of us. The Yerushalmi says it contributed to the Churban, along with sinas chinam.
Nonetheless, when Eliyahu complained to Hashem that he was the only left, before being told "You're retired!" Hashem said it was not so. There were many who were still faithful to Him. The same today. You are evil for saying all Charedim are like that, when it is far from the truth.
The pesukim are clear that we lost prominence and power over our land due to corruption on the top, but that has nothing to do with why we were slain and butchered. That was for being immoral. Yechezkel is the most clear on that.
And to end off with some whataboutism so you can focus on my weaker statement, it ain't like the MO are so much better. But yes, ציון במשפט תפדה ושביה בצדקה, if this gets better we can increase our chances of greeting Moshiach
I can categorically state the 'MO' beis din system in Israel is better. It's Boduk u'menusah that The more 'heimish' the more corruption and more 'mucking around' endless delays etc etc.
PS Yechezkel is not the only novi. Other nevi'im (trei osor) focus plenty on other things as the reason for destruction, not just immorality.
There are no MO batei dinim in EY (AFAIK). There are many Dati Leumi batei dinim (I am a dayan in one of them).
That's not the same thing.
If you meant the official batei dinim, most of the dayanim are charedi (about 2/3).
I know many dayanim, both charedi and dati leumi, and the overwhelming majority are תלמידי חכמים יראי שמים (I once had a problem with one dayan, and his problem was not corruption but misplaced תמימות)
What percentage is 'overwhelming majority'?- I would expect that the תלמידי חכמים יראי שמים percentage should be nothing less than 100%. Your comment does not full me with confidence. 70%? So three in 10 dayonim are corrupt. Great.
And how many litigants can actually arrange a hearing before the top dayonim in EY? If I want to take my dodgy kablan (who looks very charedi, mikvah every day etc etc) who I allege swindled me to Reb Sariel's beis din in benei berak, can I do so with ease?
A. You have a very curious method of reading texts. I wrote that I know many dayanim, and one of them was too תמים. No one is or was corrupt. So that's 100% not corrupt. The who was too תמים shouldn't be a dayan, out of 100 or so that I know, that's one percent.
B. AFAIK, anyone can go to Rav Sariel's beis din. (You'll have to prove your case, of course, like any other litigant)
You wrote a significant majority where תלמידי חכמים יראי שמים. OK.
How much is that, and what about the rest? What are the rest doing being dayonim!
First to my main point (which you put as PS after the Whataboutism) I can't say my knowledge of תרי עשר is as good as the rest of Navi, but I said I agree that even Yechezkel blames the destruction on corruption, only the focus of middah kineged middah in the pesukim is of them loosing their prominence as a punishment for corruption, but being killed was for immorality. I have no doubt that is the context in תרי עשר. I know I shouldn't guess like that but your way of reading won't get me nervous.
Now to your other point, MO and Mizrachi have as much in common as chasidim have with Litvaks. ודי למבין.
Second, you don't live in Israel so you have no idea, but I personally have experienced more corruption with an MO school I was in contact with, more that any other Lakewood organization. I won't say that about everyone in MO, but you hearing stories ain't worth much better.
“Now to your other point, MO and Mizrachi have as much in common as chasidim have with Litvaks. ודי למבין.”
You are making the classic yeshivish mistake. Chareidim claim to be holier and more religious than the rest. Except outside a very narrow selection of mitzvos, they quite simply are NOT.
Whataboutism
We started about corruption and now its elitism. As it is, last I checked on Rationalist Judaism, the MO have a healthy dose of it too so give me a break.
Thats bec the MO here call themselves dati leumi. Gush dosent have dayanim?
Gush doesn't have many Dayyanim in the offical batei dinim. In the private batei dinim, a bit more. Usually, the dayyanim from the Gush are in the more Torani sector of Gushnikim.
Whatever you want to call them. I am referring to the 'Rabbanut" system. Their semicha is far more 'proper' and organised than the hemishe chareidi system.
Now you're talking about semicha?
Many charedim take the Rabbanut semicha, esp. in דיינות.
Some moderate chareidim take the Rabbanut semicha, true. The ones I know are more 'Anglo' background.
Most won't touch it with a barge-pole, it is connected with the treife medinah, after all. As well as being too hard.
MO is not DL and DL is not ML.
Right but no Israeli calls themselves MO. I went to a gush type yeshiva and they all call themselves dati leumi
There are only so many gvirim in any community. Extremely few, in fact. By definition. If everyone were gvirim, then no one would be. So you slander all charedim because a few unseemly people have insinuated themselves into positions of power and/or influence. Why? Did you have a bad experience with a beis din during your divorce? Something else?