The biggest problem with your take on the situation is the Hesder and Hesder Mercaz systems. Perhaps as an American, you simply don’t know much about it. My son learned full time for 5 years post high school and then went in for an abbreviated army service under hesder mercaz. He chose a tank unit , as do many of his friends from yeshiva, because the tank units are not mixed.. Granted, there were women instructors. After spending so many formative years in yeshiva there was little to no chance of him going of the derech. He was/is super strong in his learning and avodas hashem, he was a model of a frum soldier, as are all of his yeshiva friends. My son really has no complaints about charedim who are learning. He believes that their learning provides shmira and continuity for klal yisrael just as he and his friends did in their time. My issue is that the charedim are just on the wrong side here. They are missing an opportunity to inspire and unite the Jewish people by participating even in a small way in the army or in hesder mercaz. They argue against serving in the army as a mitzva, instead they have made it beyond the pale. My heart sank as I read Rav Brudny’s article. Their attitudes cause such a chillul hashem, it pains me that you don’t see it. Eventually they will have to stand before Hashem and justify it. I wouldn’t want to be in their shoes.
You missed the point of the post, which is the war on the Torah. The secularists and Supreme Court are not saying, we care so much about the Torah, here is the opportunity to do both, go to Hesder Mercaz. They couldn't care less. Everything about their rhetoric, actions, and history shows that this is a continuation of the war on Torah.
I didn't say there is absolutely no way that anybody can serve without going off the derech. In fact I even suggested that maybe according to the more moderate American chareidi approach, the religious datiim are correct. But the secularists hate the religious datiim too.
I do think the Israeli chareidi view has a strong point though, even with the existence of institutions like Hesder Mercaz. Once you make fighting the greatest value for young men, rather than learning Torah, then only a small proportion of them will choose to go to a strong yeshiva. Which is why only a small minority of datiim choose hesder, and which explains the abysmal dropout rate among datiim compared to chareidim. It's not necessarily about the evil influence of the army itself, which could probably be mitigated with hesder units, but the hierarchy of values which implicitly tells young men that army service is more important than Torah observance (even if dati rabbis would never say that explicitly-except when they do- see here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8ig2_evuLM). Obviously, I am speaking in generalities. I know that there are plenty of dati rabbis who are successful in transmitting the proper values to their children, like Rav RKZ in the comments here.
The “war on torah” is just unhelpful rhetoric. I work with plenty of secular people non of whom are the wild eyed crazy ppl of the anti charedi protests. A minority of datiim choose hesder because there are multiple programs such as mechinot which are more appropriate for the type of kid, some of whom are just not cut out for full time learning. That same type of kid in the charedi world ends up in a draft dodger yeshiva and working in a store instead of serving in the army. That is what happens when the army is “evil” and a “tool of the secularists to destroy Torah” If the army was not seen as the “root of all evil” there would be room for the kids who are not really learning to do a great mitzva (with proper preparation of course) and room for advanced learners to also serve. BTW, there are some individuals among the dati leumi who are planning on lifetime learning who do not become soldiers and eventually do some army rav type of service. The high court ruling affects those “top learners” as well. Also, I believe the hesder mercaz guys would first get a charedi style exemption until they later joined the army. The refusal of haredim to serve and the resulting high court ruling affects plenty of dati guys as well.
You may think it's unhelpful but it's not false. Most seculars may not be fighting against the Torah, but the loudest and most influential and most powerful are.
Here's the thing about yeshiva and army. If all the datiim would be the like the most serious hesderniks, like Rav RKZ here and his kids, I really believe many/most chareidim would be flocking to that model. What's not to like? (unless you're Satmar) תורה וגדולה במקום אחד! But they look at the dati community, and see in *general* (with plenty of exceptions, as mentioned) a low level of Torah and observance compared to their own communities, along with a much higher drop-out rate. They see dati rabbis either denying the reality, or secularists like Slifkin dismissing those concerns by basically saying that well, yes, army service and nationalism is more important than ritual observance and Torah study, yes, that's the dati hashkafah. And sometimes rabbis indicating that also, like in the video of Rav Sherki I linked. And to chareidim, that's just totally unacceptable. Better to live in chu"l than to have that kind of Judaism and chinuch system.
Now that I said all that, you might be wondering why an American chareidi would view things differently. And the answer is that I believe American chareidim would be better at finding a compromise. Perhaps creating a chinuch system where Torah is the highest value, not army service, but army service would be like making a parnassah, something you have to do at some point out of sheer necessity. Just like the American chareidi approach to parnassah. This would be a very different chinuch than either the Israeli chareidi or dati model now.
I disagree with your assessment that the “Dati hold army service and nationalism to be more important than ritual observance and Torah study”. This is certainly not true of the datiim in my orbit. It is just something you need to do and it is encouraged as a lechatchilla and a mitzva because it is both motivating and true. Its like the yeshiva I put my oldest son in, in Brooklyn before we made aliya. Unlike the yeshiva I went to where secular studies was a complete joke, the Rosh Yeshiva explained his hashkafa, that since we have to put each kid into secular studies in the afternoon, if we allow misbehavior and time wasting then it is worse bitul torah. Instead, he said it needs to have importance even while knowing that its position compared to Torah is secondary. The same applies to the army. It’s just hishtadlus we need to do, and do it in a way that does not harm our kids spiritually. But the fighting and the rhetoric appears to be harming us spiritually and harming our nation.
Jacob, I have no problem with your hashkafah as stated. Do you expect your children to stay within the same community or similar? If so, this sounds similar to the American chareidi approach. However, it is not consistent with what I have seen in many other sources. Commenter Avraham Marcus, also a transplant from an American yeshivish community to Israeli DL, made the following comment, criticizing his own society: https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-exodus-disgrace-called-out/comment/51699221
"I learned in a hesder yeshiva. Yes, many of my friends would rather their child be an OTD officer than an avrech in bnei brak."
This sounds like the idea in the shiur from Rav Sherki I linked. Yes, I realize this is a theoretical question, as dati parents would rather their son be a religious officer who learns Torah than the two extremes, but to me the very statement speaks volumes about the dati hashkafah. With this attitude, it's no surprise that most children don't go to hesder yeshiva, and such a high percentage go OTD.
Now you claim in your particular community, the situation is much better, and Torah is the paramount value. But I don't believe that your community is doing a good job distinguishing themselves from the dati-lites, from the Slifkins, from "many friends" that commenter Avraham discussed. See the example of the pahskevil in the post, in which Rabbi Sheilat signed alongside a bunch of dati-lite "rabbis", granting them legitimacy. I see a failure to acknowledge the dangers of secularism. However, I sincerely believe that if/when you are able to distinguish yourselves as a sizable community with basically chareidi hashkafos, you will be able to attract many chareidim to your approach. I believe it is very important for communities such as yours to do their own, independent outreach to chareidim. I think the approach of positioning themselves together with the rest of the datiim and with “the rest of society” is not helpful at all.
Your dishonest quote that 'the “Dati hold army service and nationalism to be more important than ritual observance and Torah study”.' speaks either to a lack of reading comprehension, or a lack of willingness to understand Happy's position.
Whoa whoa whoa. Jacob wasn't being dishonest. Although I was talking about Slifkin with that quote, I was also talking about what I believe the dati system in general educates towards, whether that's what they say explicitly (like Slifkin and Rav Sherki) or not. And Jacob was responding to that.
"He was/is super strong in his learning and avodas hashem"
You just don't get it. In the eyes of Happy and Co, a late in the morning shteible going, leil shishi cholent and kigel fressing, approved clothing wearing, heimish looking 'ben torah', is miles better than your son in avodas hashem, no further questions need asking.
The reason the DL Hashkafah is considered inferior to the Charedi one is because it is untested and new.
Right now, the energy behind those that are 'on fire' with Torah, the Land, and their mutual responsibilities as Am Yisroel is the State of Israel and their hopes for its future as a Torah State and perhaps the background for Moshiach. In essence, not much different from the early generation of Zionists, whose idealism is unmatched. Read the memoirs of Yaakov Meridor, or Leon Uris' novels. Even Perfidy gives this impression. They didn't think about the future, and had no plans for when their plans had come to fruition.
The DL community, since Reb Zvi Yehuda gave it a boost by educating a generation of educators, have undergone a great awakening in recent years. There are many of them 'on fire' right now, learning, serving Hashem and His nation, and bringing up large families in their hashkafah. But how will they perpetuate this mindset? Right now, they have idealism with them, they are pioneers, builders, and the vanguard of a new world. How is that a sustainable ideology?
Charedism has withstood the test of time. Torah was the transfer from Spain to Poland, Torah brought us over from Eastern Europe to America, and it rebuilt a world in Eretz Yisroel. That hashkafah of dedication to Talmud Torah above all, not building a nation, not fighting Hashem's wars, not working the land, but Torah only, is a tried and true method. We can't risk giving it up for the novel idea called DL.
I think you need to explain this in more detail. What does it mean chareidism stood the test of time? What is chareidism precisely, such that you are calling Spain chareidism? Sounds like you mean תלמוד תורה כנגד כולם, without other ideals. How long was that for? Certainly for many Sfardi Rishonim there was also an ideal of understanding philosophy- but maybe you will call that Torah. Among Italian Jews, there was an ideal of understanding astronomy and medical science- but maybe you will say they were really concerned about the Torah aspects of those. By chassidim there was....- you already know. And how long does something have to last for to withstand the test of time? Is 50 years enough? 70? 200?
Charedism, in a nutshell, is the idea that the Torah is the only source for every aspect of our lives, and the most important and impressive thing a person can do is to advance in his knowledge and understanding of Torah, with its 48 kinyanim.
Judaism, Jewish continuity, Jewish nationhood, and Jewish ideals, are all secondary to this, and are treated as such.
The DL have prioritized Jewish nationhood, and they have shown much proof to their position. Rav Kook and his son developed this shittah with a beautiful tapestry of sources and sevaros. It is very tempting.
But the risks are too great. We have too little experience with it to show it withstanding the tides of time. It is not just an issue of years, it is an issue of crossing over various boundaries. The Yemenite lifestyle lasted for hundreds of years, because no real change attacked it. When a small force attacked it, it folded like a house of cards. It was unsustainable even though it lasted for a thousand plus years.
The Sefardi Rishonim are precisely my proof. They did all kinds of things, yet the only part of their lives that transferred safely was the Torah. See the new biography of the Ba'al Akedah for some excellent research on secular studies and Spain, especially the great return of the final century of 1391 to 1492.
Im not exactly Rav Shilats spokesman and he dosent need my defense but he'd probably say that on this specific issue a vote "against" the chareidi system is a vote FOR the Torah, not against it. Even if they dont listen he needs to speak out against what he views as a זיוף התורה. Just like he boycotted the blood drive which changed "mother" and "father" to "parent 1" and "parent 2"
I know he thinks that. My question is why he signed a pashkevil that includes kofrim and קלי הדעת. No self-respecting chareidi rabbi would sign a kol koreh alongside Reform rabbis, even for a good cause. Is that part of the Dati shittah, that they feel rabbis from such streams of Judaism are legitimate authorities? I know Rabbi Melamed has praised the Reform movement.
I spoke to him about those 2. He strongly disagrees with them but he doesn't view them as reform as wrong as their השקפות are. If they had a large following like the chareidim he'd go against them too.
So he disagrees with them the same way the Ponovezh Rosh Yeshiva disagrees with Toldos Aharon, is what I am hearing. But he has no problem relating to them as fellow legitimate rabbis to take a stand against the chareidim.
If he saw the names, then yes he thought it was כדאי in this specific area. The thing is he has ties to the chareidi world (learned under Rav Nadel) and it very well may be that he spoke to gedolim and leaders on their side as well.
Avraham, I was bothered by the question of why Charedim don't pay much attention to dati rabbanim for a while. But after seeing 2 studies yesterday I have the opposite question.
Hi. Yes, off the derech is definetly a bigger issue by us for multiple reasons. We dont shun those who go off and we expose our youth to israeli society. We also have a significant portion of לייטים that don't view מצוות as their top priority, as they grow up on western disney values even before they are exposed to serious torah learning (if at all as half dont go to yeshivot post high school). Despite the challenges, we believe that our way is the אמת and we wouldnt detract from the Torah which requires army-service and building up the land even if it kept more of our kids frum. Those with the lowest OTD are american chareidim, and we would claim that even though they are loyal to the ד אמות of שו"ע they miss much of what Torah is really about. A simplistic view is easier to handle but is not necessarily the truth. On a more positive note i dont think the more torani end of the spectrum suffers as much OTD as the more liberal communities.
The truth is that I believe the greatest problem with the Israeli society is the very division into spectrum with each side claiming "hashkafic" and moral superiority over the other. I think everyone needs to come together and learn from each. Unfortunately, it looks like we are moving in the wrong direction on this, and it makes me extremely nervous about where Israel is headed. I really wish every community would come out strongly and firmly against all the wedge-drive and divisive drivers in their midst.
Rav Kook agreed with you. Imo we actually are improving. Datiim are becoming stricter and chareidim are opening up to the rest of the country. I bet this divide wont exist so strongly in another 50 years.
I see where you are coming from. I think the fast growth of the charedim naturally causes pressure on all society (at least frum society) to adapt this way. I also think American olim help for this. This is one of the reasons why I think American olim are so important.
Unfortunately, the rhetoric in recent months, and the forced draft (I think more charedim should serve in the army, but I think the forced draft is a negative development for this reason) gets me nervous. I feel that many Americans don't do aliyah because of this issue, as they can't find a specific 'box' that is right for them.
Obviously, Rav Shilat doesn't need to ask for my opinion, but I think his signing on this kol koreh was wrong for this reason, as it only contributes to this rhetoric. He certainly should be writing a teshuva l'halacha and doing whatever he can to convince Charedim, but rhetoric like this seems to be a negative development.
Right. I agree that coercion will only cause charedim to double down. Re Americans, it depends on how much of a value it is for them. I was not taught about ישוב הארץ at all. I hear what youre saying re Rav Shilat- he also wrote a halachik letter to chareidim and he has ins with the chareidi world. He definitely respects them in general.
It doesn't seem that you are addressing what I wrote, only one of the links.
It was probably too long so let me try here.
I do agree that Charedim should be doing more, but I believe that when it comes to the most basic יישוב הארץ they are doing far more than the datiim.
What is יישוב הארץ if not more Jews (certainly frum Jews) in Israel? The fact that the dati community shrunk over a 25-year period shows that they are failing at that mission.
Additionally, from a security POV I think it is basic and obvious that the real crisis is the demographic crisis as I explained in that comment and many times before. (I see now that משכיל בינה has a blog about this.)
I dont fully understand the correlation. Israelis in general have kids way above replacement level. Even chilonim now are having 3 or 4 kids. The arabs thank G-d are having less kids as well. Chareidim do help demographics but dont serve in the army and are generally underemployed. They dont view themselves as part of society here. In that way the יישוב הארץ is lacking. Our OTD is sad but its not assimilation like in America. They still marry jews and its not like they contribute less (at least physichally). I agree though that torah values and learning need more of an emphasis as the whole point of us being here is קיום רצון הבורא.
There is far more intermarriage here (in Israel) than you are aware of. I personally know of two couples (one with a Jewish father and Croatian mother, one a Jewish mother and Dutch father), and those are far from the only examples. Even if it is "only" at 1960s level vis a vis America (ie approaching 10%), it is still a tragedy.
I also know one Jewish couple that doesn't circumcise their sons!
To say it is not like America is shortsighted. It absolutely is, but in an earlier stage of rot.
What you write about chilonim is not true. They are above replacement level but not by much.
>In that way the יישוב הארץ is lacking.
I get that, and to a large extent I agree. But the main יישוב הארץ is being accomplished by the Charedim.
>The arabs thank G-d are having less kids as well.
I think it is still higher than the chilonim, but at least we have the charedim to rely on.
But ideally, what Israel needs is to outnumber the Palestinians by 4/1 or 5/1, so they can have the optioning of annexing Gaza and/or the West Bank and offer the residents citizenship.
Rav yosef also threatened to leave Israel. Not just the lefties.
Btw do you really believe the people that died settling the land and fighting for a state are an empty wagon? The religious at the time werent able to accomplish anything physichal for the nation. The seculars rebuilt the country physichally while the charedim and datim (to an extent) built it up religiously. How can you deny such a basic fact?
They are empty wagons in the sense that they have no tradition. That doesn't mean that they didn't accomplish good things, in the same sense that the American revolutionaries accomplished good things, in the same sense that the USSR accomplished good things by defeating Hitler.
The first modern aliyot were all religious. Most of the first מושבות were religious. The first שומרים in פתח תקוה were religious. There were many religious members in אצ"ל ולח"י and פלוגות דתיות in the הגנה
Finally, in answer to your question, yes, "empty wagon" is apt. Not the people. The ideology they embraced. We've been in the "post-Zionist" era for decades, at the least. What motivated then does not work today. For them. And your "basic fact" is nothing of the sort.
You are so black and white. We are humiliated LESS. Can you really compare what is happening to day to what happened at the hands of the Poritz/Tzar/Nazis/Sultan/Cossacks/Inquisition/[insert enemy here]?
We are speaking of humiliation, not degradation or oppression. When Iran threatens our destruction and faces no consequences for doing so, that is a serious humiliation. Hundreds of thousands of displaced Jews in Israel? Serious humiliation.
They would never have built a state. If you think we should have just stayed under the ottomans/British and waited for משיח i guess that theres no point convincing you.
Hashem, clearly. Have you ever actually stopped to think why Hashem chose to use the secular to build what is now a thriving mokom torah? Or is thinking forbidden in your world?
PS Thinking does not mean you will get an answer or answers. But in torah true Judaism, thinking is encouraged - whether or not one gets to any answers.
Hashem decided to use them. He could have used other means. A state was needed to bring about the קיבוץ גלויות we see today. Hashem promised to bring us back. He didnt specify exactly how it would come about.
"The religious at the time werent able to accomplish anything physichal for the nation."
This is nothing but vicious lies. In actual fact, it was the secular Zionists that often screwed things up, with the Sephardi and Ashkenazi charedim cleaning up their mess.
There was the time Eliezer ben Yehuda (allegedly responsible for reviving Hebrew as a spoken language) nearly got the entire Jewish population of Eretz Yisrael expelled by the Ottoman authorities because of his arrogant rabble-rousing. It was the devout and anti-Zionist Torah leadership that got the decree annulled for everyone, including ben Yehuda.
This leadership excelled in their diplomatic acumen, peacefully accomplishing far more than the Zionists while eschewing nationalist aspirations. Until they arrived and violently took control of the yishuv.
There was building and settlement going on. What you said applies just as well to the Balfour Declaration, as the UK was about to fill that exact role.
This kind of argumentation is literally pointless. You don't know what would have happened. But their deeds are indicative of further successful nation building by peaceful means while loyal to our Torah. Not what you claim, pointlessly. Which is based on a false historical narrative.
"It seems to me that if we educate students at an early age that the Torah is a composite of diverse divine revelations"
"It is fitting that the process of the Torah’s creation remain somewhat obscure"
I think this qualifies as kefira if one is not being deliberately obtuse.
(And I say this as someone who Happy, our blogmaster, thinks is a kofer because i believe certain parts of the narrative did not happen as they were intentionally written as polemic countermyth).
" He(David Ben Gurion) realized that a “Jewish” state would need buy-in from those who truly represented Judaism. He understood, deep-down, that secular Judaism is an empty wagon, transparently so, and that secular Zionists could never grant the “Jewish” part of the state validity without the laden wagon of those who clung to the Mesorah. "
What is 'legitimate authority'? Who defines 'legitimate' and who defines 'authority'? Do they have 'legitimate authority' to set a speed limit? What's the difference?
Speeding law can be justified without resorting to govt. per se.
I'm very sympathetic to the an-cap view, to a large extent, but the Halakha does recognize govt. (per se, not every act of govt. or not even most acts of govt.) as legitimate to a certain extent.
"Again, it’s funny that so many of these fearful and “righteous” talk of protecting children and then offer their children as living sacrifices to government schools, to the media, to the internet and Youtube, to the drug companies and state “health” services."
This is retarded thinking and obvious projection. I know those who walk the talk of living free of government and build their own systems and platforms rather than rely on converged platforms like YouTube and Twitter and the like. Libertarians attack them more than just about any group.
The core of libertarianism is the completely atomized individual. It embraces free trade, which necessitates the free movement of labor too.
The biggest problem with your take on the situation is the Hesder and Hesder Mercaz systems. Perhaps as an American, you simply don’t know much about it. My son learned full time for 5 years post high school and then went in for an abbreviated army service under hesder mercaz. He chose a tank unit , as do many of his friends from yeshiva, because the tank units are not mixed.. Granted, there were women instructors. After spending so many formative years in yeshiva there was little to no chance of him going of the derech. He was/is super strong in his learning and avodas hashem, he was a model of a frum soldier, as are all of his yeshiva friends. My son really has no complaints about charedim who are learning. He believes that their learning provides shmira and continuity for klal yisrael just as he and his friends did in their time. My issue is that the charedim are just on the wrong side here. They are missing an opportunity to inspire and unite the Jewish people by participating even in a small way in the army or in hesder mercaz. They argue against serving in the army as a mitzva, instead they have made it beyond the pale. My heart sank as I read Rav Brudny’s article. Their attitudes cause such a chillul hashem, it pains me that you don’t see it. Eventually they will have to stand before Hashem and justify it. I wouldn’t want to be in their shoes.
You missed the point of the post, which is the war on the Torah. The secularists and Supreme Court are not saying, we care so much about the Torah, here is the opportunity to do both, go to Hesder Mercaz. They couldn't care less. Everything about their rhetoric, actions, and history shows that this is a continuation of the war on Torah.
I didn't say there is absolutely no way that anybody can serve without going off the derech. In fact I even suggested that maybe according to the more moderate American chareidi approach, the religious datiim are correct. But the secularists hate the religious datiim too.
I do think the Israeli chareidi view has a strong point though, even with the existence of institutions like Hesder Mercaz. Once you make fighting the greatest value for young men, rather than learning Torah, then only a small proportion of them will choose to go to a strong yeshiva. Which is why only a small minority of datiim choose hesder, and which explains the abysmal dropout rate among datiim compared to chareidim. It's not necessarily about the evil influence of the army itself, which could probably be mitigated with hesder units, but the hierarchy of values which implicitly tells young men that army service is more important than Torah observance (even if dati rabbis would never say that explicitly-except when they do- see here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8ig2_evuLM). Obviously, I am speaking in generalities. I know that there are plenty of dati rabbis who are successful in transmitting the proper values to their children, like Rav RKZ in the comments here.
The “war on torah” is just unhelpful rhetoric. I work with plenty of secular people non of whom are the wild eyed crazy ppl of the anti charedi protests. A minority of datiim choose hesder because there are multiple programs such as mechinot which are more appropriate for the type of kid, some of whom are just not cut out for full time learning. That same type of kid in the charedi world ends up in a draft dodger yeshiva and working in a store instead of serving in the army. That is what happens when the army is “evil” and a “tool of the secularists to destroy Torah” If the army was not seen as the “root of all evil” there would be room for the kids who are not really learning to do a great mitzva (with proper preparation of course) and room for advanced learners to also serve. BTW, there are some individuals among the dati leumi who are planning on lifetime learning who do not become soldiers and eventually do some army rav type of service. The high court ruling affects those “top learners” as well. Also, I believe the hesder mercaz guys would first get a charedi style exemption until they later joined the army. The refusal of haredim to serve and the resulting high court ruling affects plenty of dati guys as well.
You may think it's unhelpful but it's not false. Most seculars may not be fighting against the Torah, but the loudest and most influential and most powerful are.
Here's the thing about yeshiva and army. If all the datiim would be the like the most serious hesderniks, like Rav RKZ here and his kids, I really believe many/most chareidim would be flocking to that model. What's not to like? (unless you're Satmar) תורה וגדולה במקום אחד! But they look at the dati community, and see in *general* (with plenty of exceptions, as mentioned) a low level of Torah and observance compared to their own communities, along with a much higher drop-out rate. They see dati rabbis either denying the reality, or secularists like Slifkin dismissing those concerns by basically saying that well, yes, army service and nationalism is more important than ritual observance and Torah study, yes, that's the dati hashkafah. And sometimes rabbis indicating that also, like in the video of Rav Sherki I linked. And to chareidim, that's just totally unacceptable. Better to live in chu"l than to have that kind of Judaism and chinuch system.
Now that I said all that, you might be wondering why an American chareidi would view things differently. And the answer is that I believe American chareidim would be better at finding a compromise. Perhaps creating a chinuch system where Torah is the highest value, not army service, but army service would be like making a parnassah, something you have to do at some point out of sheer necessity. Just like the American chareidi approach to parnassah. This would be a very different chinuch than either the Israeli chareidi or dati model now.
I disagree with your assessment that the “Dati hold army service and nationalism to be more important than ritual observance and Torah study”. This is certainly not true of the datiim in my orbit. It is just something you need to do and it is encouraged as a lechatchilla and a mitzva because it is both motivating and true. Its like the yeshiva I put my oldest son in, in Brooklyn before we made aliya. Unlike the yeshiva I went to where secular studies was a complete joke, the Rosh Yeshiva explained his hashkafa, that since we have to put each kid into secular studies in the afternoon, if we allow misbehavior and time wasting then it is worse bitul torah. Instead, he said it needs to have importance even while knowing that its position compared to Torah is secondary. The same applies to the army. It’s just hishtadlus we need to do, and do it in a way that does not harm our kids spiritually. But the fighting and the rhetoric appears to be harming us spiritually and harming our nation.
Jacob, I have no problem with your hashkafah as stated. Do you expect your children to stay within the same community or similar? If so, this sounds similar to the American chareidi approach. However, it is not consistent with what I have seen in many other sources. Commenter Avraham Marcus, also a transplant from an American yeshivish community to Israeli DL, made the following comment, criticizing his own society: https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-exodus-disgrace-called-out/comment/51699221
"I learned in a hesder yeshiva. Yes, many of my friends would rather their child be an OTD officer than an avrech in bnei brak."
This sounds like the idea in the shiur from Rav Sherki I linked. Yes, I realize this is a theoretical question, as dati parents would rather their son be a religious officer who learns Torah than the two extremes, but to me the very statement speaks volumes about the dati hashkafah. With this attitude, it's no surprise that most children don't go to hesder yeshiva, and such a high percentage go OTD.
Now you claim in your particular community, the situation is much better, and Torah is the paramount value. But I don't believe that your community is doing a good job distinguishing themselves from the dati-lites, from the Slifkins, from "many friends" that commenter Avraham discussed. See the example of the pahskevil in the post, in which Rabbi Sheilat signed alongside a bunch of dati-lite "rabbis", granting them legitimacy. I see a failure to acknowledge the dangers of secularism. However, I sincerely believe that if/when you are able to distinguish yourselves as a sizable community with basically chareidi hashkafos, you will be able to attract many chareidim to your approach. I believe it is very important for communities such as yours to do their own, independent outreach to chareidim. I think the approach of positioning themselves together with the rest of the datiim and with “the rest of society” is not helpful at all.
The question is, where will the rest go if the yeshivot and rabbanim abandoned them?
Your dishonest quote that 'the “Dati hold army service and nationalism to be more important than ritual observance and Torah study”.' speaks either to a lack of reading comprehension, or a lack of willingness to understand Happy's position.
Happy never said that, read what he wrote.
Whoa whoa whoa. Jacob wasn't being dishonest. Although I was talking about Slifkin with that quote, I was also talking about what I believe the dati system in general educates towards, whether that's what they say explicitly (like Slifkin and Rav Sherki) or not. And Jacob was responding to that.
https://www.makorrishon.co.il/judaism/303501/
"He was/is super strong in his learning and avodas hashem"
You just don't get it. In the eyes of Happy and Co, a late in the morning shteible going, leil shishi cholent and kigel fressing, approved clothing wearing, heimish looking 'ben torah', is miles better than your son in avodas hashem, no further questions need asking.
The reason the DL Hashkafah is considered inferior to the Charedi one is because it is untested and new.
Right now, the energy behind those that are 'on fire' with Torah, the Land, and their mutual responsibilities as Am Yisroel is the State of Israel and their hopes for its future as a Torah State and perhaps the background for Moshiach. In essence, not much different from the early generation of Zionists, whose idealism is unmatched. Read the memoirs of Yaakov Meridor, or Leon Uris' novels. Even Perfidy gives this impression. They didn't think about the future, and had no plans for when their plans had come to fruition.
The DL community, since Reb Zvi Yehuda gave it a boost by educating a generation of educators, have undergone a great awakening in recent years. There are many of them 'on fire' right now, learning, serving Hashem and His nation, and bringing up large families in their hashkafah. But how will they perpetuate this mindset? Right now, they have idealism with them, they are pioneers, builders, and the vanguard of a new world. How is that a sustainable ideology?
Charedism has withstood the test of time. Torah was the transfer from Spain to Poland, Torah brought us over from Eastern Europe to America, and it rebuilt a world in Eretz Yisroel. That hashkafah of dedication to Talmud Torah above all, not building a nation, not fighting Hashem's wars, not working the land, but Torah only, is a tried and true method. We can't risk giving it up for the novel idea called DL.
I think you need to explain this in more detail. What does it mean chareidism stood the test of time? What is chareidism precisely, such that you are calling Spain chareidism? Sounds like you mean תלמוד תורה כנגד כולם, without other ideals. How long was that for? Certainly for many Sfardi Rishonim there was also an ideal of understanding philosophy- but maybe you will call that Torah. Among Italian Jews, there was an ideal of understanding astronomy and medical science- but maybe you will say they were really concerned about the Torah aspects of those. By chassidim there was....- you already know. And how long does something have to last for to withstand the test of time? Is 50 years enough? 70? 200?
Charedism, in a nutshell, is the idea that the Torah is the only source for every aspect of our lives, and the most important and impressive thing a person can do is to advance in his knowledge and understanding of Torah, with its 48 kinyanim.
Judaism, Jewish continuity, Jewish nationhood, and Jewish ideals, are all secondary to this, and are treated as such.
The DL have prioritized Jewish nationhood, and they have shown much proof to their position. Rav Kook and his son developed this shittah with a beautiful tapestry of sources and sevaros. It is very tempting.
But the risks are too great. We have too little experience with it to show it withstanding the tides of time. It is not just an issue of years, it is an issue of crossing over various boundaries. The Yemenite lifestyle lasted for hundreds of years, because no real change attacked it. When a small force attacked it, it folded like a house of cards. It was unsustainable even though it lasted for a thousand plus years.
The Sefardi Rishonim are precisely my proof. They did all kinds of things, yet the only part of their lives that transferred safely was the Torah. See the new biography of the Ba'al Akedah for some excellent research on secular studies and Spain, especially the great return of the final century of 1391 to 1492.
Im not exactly Rav Shilats spokesman and he dosent need my defense but he'd probably say that on this specific issue a vote "against" the chareidi system is a vote FOR the Torah, not against it. Even if they dont listen he needs to speak out against what he views as a זיוף התורה. Just like he boycotted the blood drive which changed "mother" and "father" to "parent 1" and "parent 2"
I know he thinks that. My question is why he signed a pashkevil that includes kofrim and קלי הדעת. No self-respecting chareidi rabbi would sign a kol koreh alongside Reform rabbis, even for a good cause. Is that part of the Dati shittah, that they feel rabbis from such streams of Judaism are legitimate authorities? I know Rabbi Melamed has praised the Reform movement.
I spoke to him about those 2. He strongly disagrees with them but he doesn't view them as reform as wrong as their השקפות are. If they had a large following like the chareidim he'd go against them too.
So he disagrees with them the same way the Ponovezh Rosh Yeshiva disagrees with Toldos Aharon, is what I am hearing. But he has no problem relating to them as fellow legitimate rabbis to take a stand against the chareidim.
If he saw the names, then yes he thought it was כדאי in this specific area. The thing is he has ties to the chareidi world (learned under Rav Nadel) and it very well may be that he spoke to gedolim and leaders on their side as well.
I dont think hed say אלו ואלו about Benny Lau. He does respect chareidi gedolim though.
There is no one Dati shittah, please see what on this thread
https://forum.otzar.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=51328&hilit=%D7%9E%D7%9C%D7%9E%D7%93+%D7%A8%D7%A4%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%9D
He praised the movement?!? Or he decided to speak with a reform rabbi and praised reform jews?
https://forum.otzar.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=51328&hilit=%D7%9E%D7%9C%D7%9E%D7%93+%D7%A8%D7%A4%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%9D
Where does he praise them here? He just dosent thinks its correct to completely seperate.
Further on the thread
I dont see his comment here. It seems like theyre just discussing what he wrote.
Avraham, I was bothered by the question of why Charedim don't pay much attention to dati rabbanim for a while. But after seeing 2 studies yesterday I have the opposite question.
Perhaps you can respond to what I wrote here? https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/rav-brudnys-accusation/comment/61633062 (The actual response can be either here or there. It doesn't make much of a difference to me.)
Hi. Yes, off the derech is definetly a bigger issue by us for multiple reasons. We dont shun those who go off and we expose our youth to israeli society. We also have a significant portion of לייטים that don't view מצוות as their top priority, as they grow up on western disney values even before they are exposed to serious torah learning (if at all as half dont go to yeshivot post high school). Despite the challenges, we believe that our way is the אמת and we wouldnt detract from the Torah which requires army-service and building up the land even if it kept more of our kids frum. Those with the lowest OTD are american chareidim, and we would claim that even though they are loyal to the ד אמות of שו"ע they miss much of what Torah is really about. A simplistic view is easier to handle but is not necessarily the truth. On a more positive note i dont think the more torani end of the spectrum suffers as much OTD as the more liberal communities.
The truth is that I believe the greatest problem with the Israeli society is the very division into spectrum with each side claiming "hashkafic" and moral superiority over the other. I think everyone needs to come together and learn from each. Unfortunately, it looks like we are moving in the wrong direction on this, and it makes me extremely nervous about where Israel is headed. I really wish every community would come out strongly and firmly against all the wedge-drive and divisive drivers in their midst.
Sorry, spectrum was the wrong word. I wish people would realize that it really is a spectrum with people, not a division into separate camps.
Rav Kook agreed with you. Imo we actually are improving. Datiim are becoming stricter and chareidim are opening up to the rest of the country. I bet this divide wont exist so strongly in another 50 years.
I see where you are coming from. I think the fast growth of the charedim naturally causes pressure on all society (at least frum society) to adapt this way. I also think American olim help for this. This is one of the reasons why I think American olim are so important.
Unfortunately, the rhetoric in recent months, and the forced draft (I think more charedim should serve in the army, but I think the forced draft is a negative development for this reason) gets me nervous. I feel that many Americans don't do aliyah because of this issue, as they can't find a specific 'box' that is right for them.
Obviously, Rav Shilat doesn't need to ask for my opinion, but I think his signing on this kol koreh was wrong for this reason, as it only contributes to this rhetoric. He certainly should be writing a teshuva l'halacha and doing whatever he can to convince Charedim, but rhetoric like this seems to be a negative development.
Right. I agree that coercion will only cause charedim to double down. Re Americans, it depends on how much of a value it is for them. I was not taught about ישוב הארץ at all. I hear what youre saying re Rav Shilat- he also wrote a halachik letter to chareidim and he has ins with the chareidi world. He definitely respects them in general.
It doesn't seem that you are addressing what I wrote, only one of the links.
It was probably too long so let me try here.
I do agree that Charedim should be doing more, but I believe that when it comes to the most basic יישוב הארץ they are doing far more than the datiim.
What is יישוב הארץ if not more Jews (certainly frum Jews) in Israel? The fact that the dati community shrunk over a 25-year period shows that they are failing at that mission.
Additionally, from a security POV I think it is basic and obvious that the real crisis is the demographic crisis as I explained in that comment and many times before. (I see now that משכיל בינה has a blog about this.)
I dont fully understand the correlation. Israelis in general have kids way above replacement level. Even chilonim now are having 3 or 4 kids. The arabs thank G-d are having less kids as well. Chareidim do help demographics but dont serve in the army and are generally underemployed. They dont view themselves as part of society here. In that way the יישוב הארץ is lacking. Our OTD is sad but its not assimilation like in America. They still marry jews and its not like they contribute less (at least physichally). I agree though that torah values and learning need more of an emphasis as the whole point of us being here is קיום רצון הבורא.
There is far more intermarriage here (in Israel) than you are aware of. I personally know of two couples (one with a Jewish father and Croatian mother, one a Jewish mother and Dutch father), and those are far from the only examples. Even if it is "only" at 1960s level vis a vis America (ie approaching 10%), it is still a tragedy.
I also know one Jewish couple that doesn't circumcise their sons!
To say it is not like America is shortsighted. It absolutely is, but in an earlier stage of rot.
It is terrible but that the telavivim not the datlashim.
What you write about chilonim is not true. They are above replacement level but not by much.
>In that way the יישוב הארץ is lacking.
I get that, and to a large extent I agree. But the main יישוב הארץ is being accomplished by the Charedim.
>The arabs thank G-d are having less kids as well.
I think it is still higher than the chilonim, but at least we have the charedim to rely on.
But ideally, what Israel needs is to outnumber the Palestinians by 4/1 or 5/1, so they can have the optioning of annexing Gaza and/or the West Bank and offer the residents citizenship.
4 is way above, way higher than any western country. And why do you think yishuv is only the number of kids?
*much as the more liberal communities.
I'm curious, are R. Benny Lau and R. Dr. Michael Abraham secularists or amei ha’aretz or apostates? Or all 3 perhaps?
Cheers
The second is an apostate
The first in all 3
These posts might have more credibility if it left out name calling, especially lashon hora, motzei shem ra. Jews shouldn't be doing this.
Cheers
מוציא שם רע is a lie. DMA himself wrote that he is an אפיקורס.
לשון הרע does not apply to מסיתים ומדיחים
Exactly my point.
Try not doing it, plz.
Cheers
food for thought.
https://www.israelhayom.com/2024/07/07/the-forgotten-fighters-ultra-orthodox-jews-in-israels-war-of-independence/
I already mentioned in the post that chareidim fought in the War of Independence and other wars.
Indeed you did. This is it in detail.
Rav yosef also threatened to leave Israel. Not just the lefties.
Btw do you really believe the people that died settling the land and fighting for a state are an empty wagon? The religious at the time werent able to accomplish anything physichal for the nation. The seculars rebuilt the country physichally while the charedim and datim (to an extent) built it up religiously. How can you deny such a basic fact?
Rav Yosef doesn't claim to be a Zionist.
They are empty wagons in the sense that they have no tradition. That doesn't mean that they didn't accomplish good things, in the same sense that the American revolutionaries accomplished good things, in the same sense that the USSR accomplished good things by defeating Hitler.
The first modern aliyot were all religious. Most of the first מושבות were religious. The first שומרים in פתח תקוה were religious. There were many religious members in אצ"ל ולח"י and פלוגות דתיות in the הגנה
They planned on building a state? They had the means? The לחי and אצל were still mainly secular.
Some planned on building a state, just like most secular zionists didn't see it a realist goal.
http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/vl/bendov/bendov22.pdf
https://myrtlerising.weebly.com/blog/a-review-of-guardian-of-jerusalem-the-life-times-of-rabbi-yosef-chaim-sonnenfeld-why-it-challenged-everything-i-thought-i-knew-about-the-modern-history-of-eretz-yisrael
The Guardian of Jerusalem is well known fiction.
Do you have something against Artscroll or this book in specific, because איש על החומה is considered to be pretty reliable.
You must have a source for this claim, right?
Finally, in answer to your question, yes, "empty wagon" is apt. Not the people. The ideology they embraced. We've been in the "post-Zionist" era for decades, at the least. What motivated then does not work today. For them. And your "basic fact" is nothing of the sort.
https://myrtlerising.weebly.com/blog/the-hidden-truth-how-eliezer-ben-yehudah-nearly-caused-the-mass-expulsion-of-the-entire-jewish-population-under-the-ottoman-empire-all-of-whom-were-ultimately-saved-by-the-wise-intervention-of-both-the-sephardi-ashkenazi-torah-sages-of-that-era
This isn't to deny the Zionists' accomplishments. But to say there was no alternative in theory or even being pursued in reality is false.
The alternative was just a continuation of 2000 years of exile and humiliation.
Are we not being humiliated today?
You're wrong. There was successful building and settlement and diplomacy going on before the Zionists ever arrived.
You are so black and white. We are humiliated LESS. Can you really compare what is happening to day to what happened at the hands of the Poritz/Tzar/Nazis/Sultan/Cossacks/Inquisition/[insert enemy here]?
We are speaking of humiliation, not degradation or oppression. When Iran threatens our destruction and faces no consequences for doing so, that is a serious humiliation. Hundreds of thousands of displaced Jews in Israel? Serious humiliation.
Indeed. Serious humiliation. You haven't responded to my specific point, though.
They would never have built a state. If you think we should have just stayed under the ottomans/British and waited for משיח i guess that theres no point convincing you.
Who decided a state was needed, or needed to come about by the means the Zionists employed?
Hashem, clearly. Have you ever actually stopped to think why Hashem chose to use the secular to build what is now a thriving mokom torah? Or is thinking forbidden in your world?
PS Thinking does not mean you will get an answer or answers. But in torah true Judaism, thinking is encouraged - whether or not one gets to any answers.
Hashem decided to use them. He could have used other means. A state was needed to bring about the קיבוץ גלויות we see today. Hashem promised to bring us back. He didnt specify exactly how it would come about.
"The religious at the time werent able to accomplish anything physichal for the nation."
This is nothing but vicious lies. In actual fact, it was the secular Zionists that often screwed things up, with the Sephardi and Ashkenazi charedim cleaning up their mess.
There was the time Eliezer ben Yehuda (allegedly responsible for reviving Hebrew as a spoken language) nearly got the entire Jewish population of Eretz Yisrael expelled by the Ottoman authorities because of his arrogant rabble-rousing. It was the devout and anti-Zionist Torah leadership that got the decree annulled for everyone, including ben Yehuda.
This leadership excelled in their diplomatic acumen, peacefully accomplishing far more than the Zionists while eschewing nationalist aspirations. Until they arrived and violently took control of the yishuv.
All this and more is documented over many posts at the Myrtle Rising blog (https://myrtlerising.weebly.com/blog), over the last few months.
Correction: the Ottomans wanted to expel Jews from the entire empire, not just EY.
I was reffering to advancing our nation by rebuilding a jewish polity. Not to doing שתדלנות with the local פריץ or king.
There was building and settlement going on. What you said applies just as well to the Balfour Declaration, as the UK was about to fill that exact role.
This kind of argumentation is literally pointless. You don't know what would have happened. But their deeds are indicative of further successful nation building by peaceful means while loyal to our Torah. Not what you claim, pointlessly. Which is based on a false historical narrative.
No, the UK was not about to fill that exact role. Do you know anything about politicians?
For the illiterate, I am responding to this: "Not to doing שתדלנות with the local פריץ or king."
Please see what I attached here https://forum.otzar.org/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=40361&start=1640#p840776
You should have used David Bigman as an example. Explicitly denies Torah Misinaj
Good catch
Really?
Yes. https://www.thetorah.com/article/multi-genre-perspective
https://www.thetorah.com/author/david-bigman
Hes treading rough territory but didnt see any outright כפירה here.
"It seems to me that if we educate students at an early age that the Torah is a composite of diverse divine revelations"
"It is fitting that the process of the Torah’s creation remain somewhat obscure"
I think this qualifies as kefira if one is not being deliberately obtuse.
(And I say this as someone who Happy, our blogmaster, thinks is a kofer because i believe certain parts of the narrative did not happen as they were intentionally written as polemic countermyth).
I thought he meant Tanach. He says that about חמישי חומשי תורה? Ill look again.
Right, i see he does. He is being somewhat vague though. But it can very well be taken to mean that it wasnt all transmitted to Moshe in the midbar.
" He(David Ben Gurion) realized that a “Jewish” state would need buy-in from those who truly represented Judaism. He understood, deep-down, that secular Judaism is an empty wagon, transparently so, and that secular Zionists could never grant the “Jewish” part of the state validity without the laden wagon of those who clung to the Mesorah. "
Please tell me when DBG said this.
Cheers
Please tell me when he said that DBG said this.
Cheers
Besides, let the author respond.
Cheers
I copied and pasted from the post. Do you dispute that?
Cheers
No.
Cheers
So what's the problem?
He never mentioned that DBG actually said that.
I guess what you meant to ask is how he knows what went on in DBG's mind.
Cheers
Fine. Semantics.
He still needs to answer.
Cheers, back.
What is 'legitimate authority'? Who defines 'legitimate' and who defines 'authority'? Do they have 'legitimate authority' to set a speed limit? What's the difference?
Ah, once again, there lies the rub. Suggested reading, Sir Isaiah Berlin on positive and negative freedom.
Cheers
A speed limit is meant to save lives, and שבט הלוי paskened to follow traffic laws based on פיקוח נפש
הגרז"ן גולדברג זצ"ל paskened that traffic laws are also legitimate per דיני שותפות
The draft needs to be very very efficient to be somewhat justified, and it's not.
You haven't dealt with my points. Just the usual distractions.
What does 'efficient', 'justified' and 'somewhat justified' mean in this context.
The draft is a much stronger form of coercion, and therefore requires extraordinary circumstances and efficiency to begin to be justified.
You can read my book and understand much better.
Who gets to define 'extraordinary'?
בית הדין הגדול, and since we don't have one, גדולי ת"ח שבדור
Speeding law can be justified without resorting to govt. per se.
I'm very sympathetic to the an-cap view, to a large extent, but the Halakha does recognize govt. (per se, not every act of govt. or not even most acts of govt.) as legitimate to a certain extent.
I wrote a book about it ב"ה.
Libertarians have no answer on how to prevent pedophilia.
"Again, it’s funny that so many of these fearful and “righteous” talk of protecting children and then offer their children as living sacrifices to government schools, to the media, to the internet and Youtube, to the drug companies and state “health” services."
This is retarded thinking and obvious projection. I know those who walk the talk of living free of government and build their own systems and platforms rather than rely on converged platforms like YouTube and Twitter and the like. Libertarians attack them more than just about any group.
The core of libertarianism is the completely atomized individual. It embraces free trade, which necessitates the free movement of labor too.
I know, I also read Spooner and Rothbard and Hoppe and Rockwell and Block, and I can see their point.
However, please read my book and understand what I mean https://machon.oretzion.com/%D7%9E%D7%97%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D/%D7%94%D7%A8%D7%91-%D7%93%D7%A8-%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%A2%D7%99-%D7%96%D7%A7