Ever since the founding of the State, Gedolei Yisroel were consistent in requesting an exemption only for those who תורתו אומנותו, not for all Charedim. There are countless statements and letters about this, and the greatest proof is that the Chavrei Knesset never requested more than that.
If the Army was an issue of Shmad, how could any Jew attend? If the יהרג ואל יעבור statements were true, why take care of Bnei Torah more than other Jews?
The Israeli Army is not considered Assur by any recognized posek of previous generations, and I even know of stories when Rav Shach sent people to the Army when they did not need to go.
Why are Bnei Torah exempt? The truth is, a strict learning of Halacha would tell us that they are not. The protection Torah learning provides is an Agadda, not Halachic, and we cannot decide Halacha based on that. Just like we cannot exempt ourselves from going to the Doctor when sick, sufficing with learning another Daf Gemara, even though לכל בשרו מרפא is a possuk. There is no pttur for a Talmid Chacham when the enemy is at our doors.
My understanding of the reasoning is because the Army does not truly need everyone. What they do is exempt people after two or three years. They could easily increase it to four and five. Why exempt someone who has been there for two or three years already? They have a system of 'fairness', which they follow. The Torah does not necessarily work that way. If some people are engaged in more important work and some in less important, let those who engage in more important work stay home while those that are not doing much anyway should go. Those that choose to learn (including any Chilonim who wish to avail themselves of this - this isn't a Charedi exemption) are choosing to do something more important for society, and those who will play soccer, mess around in college, chase pleasures in Thailand and even finding cures for cancer, are doing a less important job. If there is a choice who should fight and who shouldn't (if all are needed, that's a different story), by all means, choose the law student. They claim it is not fair, even though the option of תורתו אומנותו is available for them too. But fairness is only one value among many.
Additionally, without the Torah that is learned by the youth, the national resolve and backbone is weakened. I am not talking about Zionism, we can do without that. But when people don't see Klal Yisroel as exceptional, they don't see Yiddishe lives as worth saving, they don't appreciate the עולם מלא in each life, they will not fight as well. Without a learning class, the army will not function. They will be a bunch of leftists who either don't attend, or refuse to follow orders. Their inner belief will weaken, and all will suffer. This is not Zionism, even if the State needs to be closed down, we need an Army of protection from the murderous Arabs, and the Army has to believe in its mission of saving lives.
This is an important perspective. If you are right, then Natan is wrong. There is really no problem with going to the army any more than going out to work. And even better, since it is pikuach nefesh.
While we are not representative of the general Charedi attitude, my wife and I both told our sons that if they didn't want to sit and learn, this being Israel, they would draft. But not because we are enamored of the IDF.
That being said, I have heard that draft dodging among the post-Zionists is rampant. The Charedim get deferments. The post-Zionists get outright exemptions for all sorts of reasons. Or they just leave. It's not a small problem either. Don't ask me for references. Do your own research.
Given the much publicized readiness of some to dodge reserve duty for spurious political reasons, this should not be a surprise.
The army would not be able to increase service time as less chilonim are drafting. Even the 2 years and 8 months are deemed too much by many and theres been talk of reducing it. Even though there are tons of office jobs there is a lack of combat troops. I like your honesty regarding not using quoting agada like its halacha. If it was, the Rambam would bring them down in הלכות מלכים ומלחמות. He'd also be מתנה the concept of מלחמת מצווה on the צדקות of the ruler if there was such a law (theres a sugya of what scale war is מלחמת מצווה but thats another issue).
1. You are mixing up how things are with how they should be. The government needs to draft as many soldiers as needed, for as long as needed. But they should take those that aren't otherwise occupied in something important, seeing as either way they won't take the entire country into the army forever. 2yrs8mos is an arbitrary number, how about 20 years? If needed.
2. IMHO, the only draft should be for combat units. All jobniks, technical staff, professionals and technicians should be paid jobs, as in the private sector. Risking lives is one thing, but why draft for something that money can cover?
3. Of course, Aggada has its place. Most of the complaints against the דיחוי בני הישיבות are not Halachic. When people ask, "where is your contribution?", our answer is Aggadic. But we may not ignore the Halacha.
4. The צדקות of the King is not Aggada either.
5. The legitimacy of the king is Halachic, and democracy may not produce a king. Wars in Israel nowadays are not מלחמת מצוה, because the regime is illegitimate. Yes, because they don't keep Mitzvos, as the Rambam writes that it is forbidden to appoint someone who doesn't keep Mitzvos to any position of authority in Klal Yisroel, and also because they are not from Beis Dovid. As well as other reasons. But we don't need מלחמת מצוה to save our lives. The simple הלכות בני העיר demand that. And Talmidei Chachamim are not exempt from that. But, see above for a better reason.
The Rambams geder is להשיב ישראל מיד צר (besides for 7 nations and amalek). Its not a מלחמת רשות which needs a סנהדרין.
Btw-The chazon Ish who held of agudas yisrael went against the Rambam? They vote in israel and appoint secular leaders! Btw Nobody called them מלכות בית דוד. Rav Kook viewed it as שופט . Anyone we take on to lead us into battle etc.
I did not say it is a מלחמת רשות. Merely that the decision as to when, how and how far to go to war should not be in the hands of illegitimate leaders. Just like we all agree that the hilltop youth should not be the ones deciding how to deal with the Arabs, so too Netanyahu and his cabal of אינו עושה מעשה עמךs.
Voting in Israel, for MKs, has nothing to do with appointing a PM. The CI never appointed BG as PM, he instructed people to vote for RIM Levin to represent them.
When direct voting was instituted, the matter was quite unclear. And the reasoning for the Matirim is because either way we will have a leader who is אינו עושה מעשה עמך, and our vote isn't changing that. But that does not grant them any legitimacy. I didn't see Rav Kook's reasoning, how a non-religious Jew can be considered a שופט. Interestingly, a מלך is exempt from this caveat, see Melachim.
Why didnt they just leave the country or not vote? If its אסור to appoint them theres no excuses.
Is it brought down in הלכה that any leader who isnt ירא שמים is illegitimate? Dosent seem so. Even the חשמונאים were illegitimate for being over לא יסור שבט מיהודה acc to ramban. Furthermore, even regarding מלוכה, The yerushalmi brought by the Rambam holds that Rabi Akiva believed Bar Kochva to be Mashiach,and he was no religious figure by any means.
Find the person who gave 'excuses' and ask him. I didn't give excuses, I told you that they never appointed BG as PM. They voted for MKs, not for PM.
Your distortion of my position is not quoted in Halacha. But the Halacha that אינו עושה מעשה עמך cannot be appointed over Klal Yisroel is a simple Halacha that מקרב אחיך תשים עליך - all appointments must be מקרב אחיך and not someone who is not considered אחיך.
Bar Kochva was not a religious figure? Who told you? How is it muttar to be מוציא לעז על המתים like that?
There is a similar inconsistency with the supposed spiritual dangers of limmudei chol, exams, reading secular books, the outside world and similar, for some bizarre reason not applying to females. In the US and England, in many 'yeshivish' families, whilst the boys leave for yeshiva ketonoh at 14/15, the girls are still studying Shakespeare and, take a deep breath, goyshe science and maths. Even in chassidic families, this is correct to a lesser extent. And in Israel too (minus, perhaps, the Shakespeare).
Very well written and presented. It reminds me how people draw proof from Rav Chaim Kanievsky who had to fight (for one day) protecting petach tikva in 48, that one should go to the army, and ignore the rest of his life when he was against it. The simple difference was that at the time no one else was able to protect the village so he couldn't be exempt.
I agree that they need an army, and fairness demands that we are no better than them. But learning Torah is important enough for them to choose non-learners to do the job.
Of course, a non-religious person will not understand this. But we need to know what we believe and accept it with a full heart before we can demand it from them.
I was wondering if any fellow Rambamists could help me with a personal issue.
Ever since a young age we instilled our dearest firstborn with an immense passion for architecture. His room is adorned with pictures of Zaha Hadid's greatest projects; as a toddler not a day went by that he didn't try and recreate one of Norman Foster's icons out of lego. He spent all his barmitzavh money to visit the Marina Bay in Singapore to marvel first hand at Moshe Safdie's magnum opus. Ever since he has turned 17 The amount of time he spends on AutoCAD makes us immensely proud.
However, I don't know how comfortable I am at the thought of him spending 6 years of his life to develop the competence to pursue his calling, does anyone know of some decent architecture themed gap year schemes, or military programs with interspersed architecture modules that he could attend before go goes to medical school so that he can be a bit more of a well rounded architect?
Chareidi Jews are some of the most unselfish people on the planet! Almost all Chareidi neighborhoods in Israel have a 'kupah shel tzedakah', an organization that collects money for the indigent.
In any phone book in Chareidi areas, you can find listings of gemachs, for free loans on many things.
Anecdotal evidence from a few tzedakah collectors that i have spoken with, says that chareidi people are more willing to donate than other groups. they will donate less, but they are more willing to donate.
Many (perhaps most) chareidim donate 10% of their earnings to tzedakah.
It is the chareidi organizations who provide free kosher food in the major hospitals around NYC (and in other areas too). This service is available to any Jew, regardless of level of observance, no questions asked. They also have apartments available near the hospitals where relatives can spend the night. These are funded by cjareidi people.
To say that chaeidim live a selfish lifestyle, is simply out of touch with reality! I have no doubt that among the more religious dati leumi, the above statistics are similar, i live in the chareidi world, so that is what I familiar with.
If the entire army were run along the lines of the disbanded Charedi units within Givati and the Paratroopers, there would be much less of an issue. Not no issue. But much less objection. They were exempt from all sorts of treifos.
As it is, I heard from my two sons that served in Tomer Givati that the serious DL types wanted in on the above units too because they were more elite and more in line with their hashkafos. It should be telling that the IDF response to them was basically, "no kosher army for you."
The remaining Charedi unit is not considered elite.
I've read a couple of Rabbi Slifkin's recent posts, he's definitely useing all the standard antisemitic tropes used throughout the ages. It's very sad to see how far he's deteriorated.
"You might think I’m joking, but this is exactly the argument of those who are accusing the chareidim of selfishness."
No, it's not. Rashi didn't have a dog in that fight. Nothing in his life was going to change depending on the outcome. By contrast, the charedim very much have an interest in the IDF winning its wars. They don't want to be driven into the sea, which is what would happen if the arabs won. A better analogy would be to WWII, in which plenty of religious Jews fought in the American army against the Nazis.
The argument is that chareidim are selfish for not saving themselves? No, it is that they are selfish for not helping others, for religious reasons.
Be that as it may, I'm not sure that Rashi didn't have a dog in the fight, but in any case our pious ancestors avoided joining Christian armies even when it involved their own protection. As Martin Luther complains.
Its the fact that theyre not fighting with their brothers, not stam "others". Your analogy shows your view towards other jews. Id stick with Natans alleged kefira over yours any day.
I have already expressed the common chareidi hashkafa towards other Jews explicitly. While we do consider them brother who are tinokos shenishbu, they are still not אחיכם במצוות and we don't want to send our sons to their secularist army.
The fact that you choose sticking together with kofrim over the Torah and care nothing about people losing their yiddishkeit is the reason why there was a divide between the chareidim and the DL in the first place, and there continues to be.
Yeah but you actually compared them to christians. Thats whats inexcusable. There is a divide which is slowly disapearing as more and more charedim are realizing that were one nation despite the wrongs perpetrated.
I care for people losing their yidishkeit but i dont agree with Slifkins fears of his son going off( although he decided its worth it even though hes scared).
I've seen DL people comparing Neturei Karta or l'havdil leftists to Palestinians many times, so they clearly don't think it's inexcusable. You have never done that? Then you're unique. Secularism is similar Christianity. In some ways better, in some ways worse.
I am glad the divide is disappearing. Still, I wouldn't recommend sending children to the secularist army.
I don't agree with Slifkin's fear either, but for a different reason that I explain at the end of the post.
Rav kook had a simple distinction. If they still identify with the nation we love them. Those who identify with the arabs by holding up Palestinian Flags and meeting with terrorists are מומרים which id be מוריד לבור in a heartbeat untill they do תשובה. Those arent תינוקות שנשבו (i admit that not all neturei karta support terror, im not reffering to them)
The argument is that they rely on others to endanger themselves on their behalf. It's generally combined with a complaint about their (purported) ingratitude. I happen to think the argument can be defeated, but not by caricaturing it as some sort of modern day blood libel.
I have no idea what Martin Luther was complaining about, nor do I think it's especially relevant. You might as well dig up some complaint made by ISIS types against moderate Muslims as 'proof' that charedi criticisms of Modern Orthodoxy are based on demented religious fanaticism. Again, what would you think of an argument made to General Eisenhower that Orthodox Jews need to be exempt from fighting the Nazis, but they'll learn in yeshiva while the others storm the beaches at Normandy?
Relying on others to endanger themselves on their behalf has been the default situation for Jews for 2000 years. And this was generally because of their religion. That is what Martin Luther was complaining about.
I wouldn't expect Eisenhower to understand anything about Judaism or the Torah. Like I say in the post "he doesn’t believe in the religion in the first place.".
Just to clarify, I took the point of this post to be that complaints about charedim refusing to serve in the IDF are similar to complaints made by Luther about the Jews. I argued in response that it's more akin to a hypothetical case where Eisenhower complains that Jews refuse to fight the Nazis along with their fellow Americans. Is your response that all 3 are in fact equivalent?
I've reread your Luther quote, and I don't see him complaining that Jews to fight in wars. So far as I can tell, he's upset that they seem to have too much money, which they get by lending money with interest to Christians. Not relevant to anything related to the IDF.
I was referring to this line: "They have no reason to act this way, since we show them every kindness. They live among us, enjoy our shield and protection..." and "We do not labor, and yet we enjoy prosperity and leisure. The accursed Goyim have to work for us, but we get their money." It's not exactly the same thing, but a similar complaint about the selfish Jews who don't help the community but rely on them.
To your other comment, they are equivalent in terms of the reasons why religious Jews wouldn't fight. The complaints others could have about this avoidance could be based on either ignorance, indifference, or antipathy towards the Jewish religion. In the case of the person I was talking about, it's probably a mixture of all three.
"It's not exactly the same thing, but a similar complaint about the selfish Jews who don't help the community but rely on them."
It's not relevant unless you can show that Luther regarded Jews as equal citizens with all of the rights and responsibilities which Christians had. That's part of why I keep insisting on the comparison to WWII. You can't simply make a 'gezeirah shava' selfish-selfish.
Luther makes it very clear that if the Jews would just reject their horrible religion and convert, he would welcome them with open arms. He considers them selfish, terrible people for not doing so.
In my opinion, many of the arguments back and further here miss the point. This is not a neatly-packaged Halachic argument where varied pesukim, sugyos or Halachic rulings can be trotted out to determine a proper path. The future of Klal Yisrael depends upon the Yeshivos and the purity of our educational frameworks. Period. Some communal decisions might indeed be less than ideal for individuals, but the policy in place to discourage Yeshiva boys from joining the Army is predicated upon a broader agenda.
Perhaps you should brush up on your history and geography. All part of God's wisdom. Rashi wouldn't have been conscripted into William's army. Why? because Troyes was in France south-east of Paris closer to the Rhineland. William was king of the Normans. A different country.
Good try. But an incorrect example. In fact, religious Jews did go to England with William.
You didn't read the post and still commented on it, wrongly. You not only didn't contribute to the discussion, you detracted it from it. Further, you thought were clever while doing so. That's rude as well as retarded.
I think there is one point that is often overlooked by those touting the Yeshivat Hesder approach. The dirty little secret is that the overwhelming majority of religious Zionist young men choose not to go to Hesder, but go straight to the Army (or assuage their conscience with a 10 month Mechinah). The results are similar to that wrought by YU to modern Orthodoxy in the USA, who insisted that secular education has spiritual value along with Torah studies, and 'look at our robust Beis Medrash learning!' 'And these boys can do both!' Yes, but the overwhelming majority of graduates of MO high schools choose instead to go to fully secular colleges, preferably the Ivy League, a natural result of YU putting secular studies on a pedestal.
Those touting Hesder dont approve of those who go straight to the army. Even for those not cut out for yeshiva we still have mechinot. Whats wrong with a 10 month mechina? Do you think everyone should spend years learning weather or not theyre interested? People may be coming from weak backgrounds but the yeshiva/mechina system itself seems prerty solid.
הסדר not חסדר. How many ppl came in as strong datim-leumim and went off? If you come in with the conviction that you want to fight for עם ישראל and do the רצון ה' you should be fine. Many datim also go off in university (probably more than in the army). Is that also אסור?
We have to be honest here.
Ever since the founding of the State, Gedolei Yisroel were consistent in requesting an exemption only for those who תורתו אומנותו, not for all Charedim. There are countless statements and letters about this, and the greatest proof is that the Chavrei Knesset never requested more than that.
If the Army was an issue of Shmad, how could any Jew attend? If the יהרג ואל יעבור statements were true, why take care of Bnei Torah more than other Jews?
The Israeli Army is not considered Assur by any recognized posek of previous generations, and I even know of stories when Rav Shach sent people to the Army when they did not need to go.
Why are Bnei Torah exempt? The truth is, a strict learning of Halacha would tell us that they are not. The protection Torah learning provides is an Agadda, not Halachic, and we cannot decide Halacha based on that. Just like we cannot exempt ourselves from going to the Doctor when sick, sufficing with learning another Daf Gemara, even though לכל בשרו מרפא is a possuk. There is no pttur for a Talmid Chacham when the enemy is at our doors.
My understanding of the reasoning is because the Army does not truly need everyone. What they do is exempt people after two or three years. They could easily increase it to four and five. Why exempt someone who has been there for two or three years already? They have a system of 'fairness', which they follow. The Torah does not necessarily work that way. If some people are engaged in more important work and some in less important, let those who engage in more important work stay home while those that are not doing much anyway should go. Those that choose to learn (including any Chilonim who wish to avail themselves of this - this isn't a Charedi exemption) are choosing to do something more important for society, and those who will play soccer, mess around in college, chase pleasures in Thailand and even finding cures for cancer, are doing a less important job. If there is a choice who should fight and who shouldn't (if all are needed, that's a different story), by all means, choose the law student. They claim it is not fair, even though the option of תורתו אומנותו is available for them too. But fairness is only one value among many.
Additionally, without the Torah that is learned by the youth, the national resolve and backbone is weakened. I am not talking about Zionism, we can do without that. But when people don't see Klal Yisroel as exceptional, they don't see Yiddishe lives as worth saving, they don't appreciate the עולם מלא in each life, they will not fight as well. Without a learning class, the army will not function. They will be a bunch of leftists who either don't attend, or refuse to follow orders. Their inner belief will weaken, and all will suffer. This is not Zionism, even if the State needs to be closed down, we need an Army of protection from the murderous Arabs, and the Army has to believe in its mission of saving lives.
This is an important perspective. If you are right, then Natan is wrong. There is really no problem with going to the army any more than going out to work. And even better, since it is pikuach nefesh.
Girls in the army is a different issue. That is completely assur.
https://www.inn.co.il/news/612528
He is talking about mixed units. I mean even separate tzniusdig units.
Correct that it's אסור לחלוטין. He was talking to his תלמידים and he said that it's אסור for them to serve with women
5783 is not 5708, or even 5727.
While we are not representative of the general Charedi attitude, my wife and I both told our sons that if they didn't want to sit and learn, this being Israel, they would draft. But not because we are enamored of the IDF.
That being said, I have heard that draft dodging among the post-Zionists is rampant. The Charedim get deferments. The post-Zionists get outright exemptions for all sorts of reasons. Or they just leave. It's not a small problem either. Don't ask me for references. Do your own research.
Given the much publicized readiness of some to dodge reserve duty for spurious political reasons, this should not be a surprise.
The army would not be able to increase service time as less chilonim are drafting. Even the 2 years and 8 months are deemed too much by many and theres been talk of reducing it. Even though there are tons of office jobs there is a lack of combat troops. I like your honesty regarding not using quoting agada like its halacha. If it was, the Rambam would bring them down in הלכות מלכים ומלחמות. He'd also be מתנה the concept of מלחמת מצווה on the צדקות of the ruler if there was such a law (theres a sugya of what scale war is מלחמת מצווה but thats another issue).
1. You are mixing up how things are with how they should be. The government needs to draft as many soldiers as needed, for as long as needed. But they should take those that aren't otherwise occupied in something important, seeing as either way they won't take the entire country into the army forever. 2yrs8mos is an arbitrary number, how about 20 years? If needed.
2. IMHO, the only draft should be for combat units. All jobniks, technical staff, professionals and technicians should be paid jobs, as in the private sector. Risking lives is one thing, but why draft for something that money can cover?
3. Of course, Aggada has its place. Most of the complaints against the דיחוי בני הישיבות are not Halachic. When people ask, "where is your contribution?", our answer is Aggadic. But we may not ignore the Halacha.
4. The צדקות of the King is not Aggada either.
5. The legitimacy of the king is Halachic, and democracy may not produce a king. Wars in Israel nowadays are not מלחמת מצוה, because the regime is illegitimate. Yes, because they don't keep Mitzvos, as the Rambam writes that it is forbidden to appoint someone who doesn't keep Mitzvos to any position of authority in Klal Yisroel, and also because they are not from Beis Dovid. As well as other reasons. But we don't need מלחמת מצוה to save our lives. The simple הלכות בני העיר demand that. And Talmidei Chachamim are not exempt from that. But, see above for a better reason.
The Rambams geder is להשיב ישראל מיד צר (besides for 7 nations and amalek). Its not a מלחמת רשות which needs a סנהדרין.
Btw-The chazon Ish who held of agudas yisrael went against the Rambam? They vote in israel and appoint secular leaders! Btw Nobody called them מלכות בית דוד. Rav Kook viewed it as שופט . Anyone we take on to lead us into battle etc.
Please keep the conversation academic.
I did not say it is a מלחמת רשות. Merely that the decision as to when, how and how far to go to war should not be in the hands of illegitimate leaders. Just like we all agree that the hilltop youth should not be the ones deciding how to deal with the Arabs, so too Netanyahu and his cabal of אינו עושה מעשה עמךs.
Voting in Israel, for MKs, has nothing to do with appointing a PM. The CI never appointed BG as PM, he instructed people to vote for RIM Levin to represent them.
When direct voting was instituted, the matter was quite unclear. And the reasoning for the Matirim is because either way we will have a leader who is אינו עושה מעשה עמך, and our vote isn't changing that. But that does not grant them any legitimacy. I didn't see Rav Kook's reasoning, how a non-religious Jew can be considered a שופט. Interestingly, a מלך is exempt from this caveat, see Melachim.
מרן הראי"ה קוק did not say anything about non-religious Jews as a שופט
His point in his תשובה was that when there is no מלך, then "חוזרים משפטי המלוכה לידי האומה בכללה" and whoever is the leader has some דיני מלכות
He was talking about ספר שופטים and about the חשמונאים
He uses the term שופט but obviously its not one particular person, like you quoted.
Why didnt they just leave the country or not vote? If its אסור to appoint them theres no excuses.
Is it brought down in הלכה that any leader who isnt ירא שמים is illegitimate? Dosent seem so. Even the חשמונאים were illegitimate for being over לא יסור שבט מיהודה acc to ramban. Furthermore, even regarding מלוכה, The yerushalmi brought by the Rambam holds that Rabi Akiva believed Bar Kochva to be Mashiach,and he was no religious figure by any means.
Find the person who gave 'excuses' and ask him. I didn't give excuses, I told you that they never appointed BG as PM. They voted for MKs, not for PM.
Your distortion of my position is not quoted in Halacha. But the Halacha that אינו עושה מעשה עמך cannot be appointed over Klal Yisroel is a simple Halacha that מקרב אחיך תשים עליך - all appointments must be מקרב אחיך and not someone who is not considered אחיך.
Bar Kochva was not a religious figure? Who told you? How is it muttar to be מוציא לעז על המתים like that?
There is a similar inconsistency with the supposed spiritual dangers of limmudei chol, exams, reading secular books, the outside world and similar, for some bizarre reason not applying to females. In the US and England, in many 'yeshivish' families, whilst the boys leave for yeshiva ketonoh at 14/15, the girls are still studying Shakespeare and, take a deep breath, goyshe science and maths. Even in chassidic families, this is correct to a lesser extent. And in Israel too (minus, perhaps, the Shakespeare).
The answer is rather simple, to the one who seeks it.
The one who wishes to find problems, will not understand it even when it is explained.
It's so simple to answer, everyone I pose the question to can only respond with insults.
The common denominator to all these insults seems to be you. What is the logical deduction?
That the points I make strike home and cannot be rebutted....
Love your healthy self-esteem.
Very well written and presented. It reminds me how people draw proof from Rav Chaim Kanievsky who had to fight (for one day) protecting petach tikva in 48, that one should go to the army, and ignore the rest of his life when he was against it. The simple difference was that at the time no one else was able to protect the village so he couldn't be exempt.
I agree, and have made similar arguments here.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/a-basic-law/comment/21331392
I don't mean that point.
I agree that they need an army, and fairness demands that we are no better than them. But learning Torah is important enough for them to choose non-learners to do the job.
Of course, a non-religious person will not understand this. But we need to know what we believe and accept it with a full heart before we can demand it from them.
I'm glad my comment inspired this important post.
I was wondering if any fellow Rambamists could help me with a personal issue.
Ever since a young age we instilled our dearest firstborn with an immense passion for architecture. His room is adorned with pictures of Zaha Hadid's greatest projects; as a toddler not a day went by that he didn't try and recreate one of Norman Foster's icons out of lego. He spent all his barmitzavh money to visit the Marina Bay in Singapore to marvel first hand at Moshe Safdie's magnum opus. Ever since he has turned 17 The amount of time he spends on AutoCAD makes us immensely proud.
However, I don't know how comfortable I am at the thought of him spending 6 years of his life to develop the competence to pursue his calling, does anyone know of some decent architecture themed gap year schemes, or military programs with interspersed architecture modules that he could attend before go goes to medical school so that he can be a bit more of a well rounded architect?
Chareidi Jews are some of the most unselfish people on the planet! Almost all Chareidi neighborhoods in Israel have a 'kupah shel tzedakah', an organization that collects money for the indigent.
In any phone book in Chareidi areas, you can find listings of gemachs, for free loans on many things.
Anecdotal evidence from a few tzedakah collectors that i have spoken with, says that chareidi people are more willing to donate than other groups. they will donate less, but they are more willing to donate.
Many (perhaps most) chareidim donate 10% of their earnings to tzedakah.
It is the chareidi organizations who provide free kosher food in the major hospitals around NYC (and in other areas too). This service is available to any Jew, regardless of level of observance, no questions asked. They also have apartments available near the hospitals where relatives can spend the night. These are funded by cjareidi people.
To say that chaeidim live a selfish lifestyle, is simply out of touch with reality! I have no doubt that among the more religious dati leumi, the above statistics are similar, i live in the chareidi world, so that is what I familiar with.
If the entire army were run along the lines of the disbanded Charedi units within Givati and the Paratroopers, there would be much less of an issue. Not no issue. But much less objection. They were exempt from all sorts of treifos.
As it is, I heard from my two sons that served in Tomer Givati that the serious DL types wanted in on the above units too because they were more elite and more in line with their hashkafos. It should be telling that the IDF response to them was basically, "no kosher army for you."
The remaining Charedi unit is not considered elite.
I've read a couple of Rabbi Slifkin's recent posts, he's definitely useing all the standard antisemitic tropes used throughout the ages. It's very sad to see how far he's deteriorated.
"You might think I’m joking, but this is exactly the argument of those who are accusing the chareidim of selfishness."
No, it's not. Rashi didn't have a dog in that fight. Nothing in his life was going to change depending on the outcome. By contrast, the charedim very much have an interest in the IDF winning its wars. They don't want to be driven into the sea, which is what would happen if the arabs won. A better analogy would be to WWII, in which plenty of religious Jews fought in the American army against the Nazis.
The argument is that chareidim are selfish for not saving themselves? No, it is that they are selfish for not helping others, for religious reasons.
Be that as it may, I'm not sure that Rashi didn't have a dog in the fight, but in any case our pious ancestors avoided joining Christian armies even when it involved their own protection. As Martin Luther complains.
Its the fact that theyre not fighting with their brothers, not stam "others". Your analogy shows your view towards other jews. Id stick with Natans alleged kefira over yours any day.
I have already expressed the common chareidi hashkafa towards other Jews explicitly. While we do consider them brother who are tinokos shenishbu, they are still not אחיכם במצוות and we don't want to send our sons to their secularist army.
The fact that you choose sticking together with kofrim over the Torah and care nothing about people losing their yiddishkeit is the reason why there was a divide between the chareidim and the DL in the first place, and there continues to be.
Yeah but you actually compared them to christians. Thats whats inexcusable. There is a divide which is slowly disapearing as more and more charedim are realizing that were one nation despite the wrongs perpetrated.
I care for people losing their yidishkeit but i dont agree with Slifkins fears of his son going off( although he decided its worth it even though hes scared).
I've seen DL people comparing Neturei Karta or l'havdil leftists to Palestinians many times, so they clearly don't think it's inexcusable. You have never done that? Then you're unique. Secularism is similar Christianity. In some ways better, in some ways worse.
I am glad the divide is disappearing. Still, I wouldn't recommend sending children to the secularist army.
I don't agree with Slifkin's fear either, but for a different reason that I explain at the end of the post.
Rav kook had a simple distinction. If they still identify with the nation we love them. Those who identify with the arabs by holding up Palestinian Flags and meeting with terrorists are מומרים which id be מוריד לבור in a heartbeat untill they do תשובה. Those arent תינוקות שנשבו (i admit that not all neturei karta support terror, im not reffering to them)
The argument is that they rely on others to endanger themselves on their behalf. It's generally combined with a complaint about their (purported) ingratitude. I happen to think the argument can be defeated, but not by caricaturing it as some sort of modern day blood libel.
I have no idea what Martin Luther was complaining about, nor do I think it's especially relevant. You might as well dig up some complaint made by ISIS types against moderate Muslims as 'proof' that charedi criticisms of Modern Orthodoxy are based on demented religious fanaticism. Again, what would you think of an argument made to General Eisenhower that Orthodox Jews need to be exempt from fighting the Nazis, but they'll learn in yeshiva while the others storm the beaches at Normandy?
Relying on others to endanger themselves on their behalf has been the default situation for Jews for 2000 years. And this was generally because of their religion. That is what Martin Luther was complaining about.
I wouldn't expect Eisenhower to understand anything about Judaism or the Torah. Like I say in the post "he doesn’t believe in the religion in the first place.".
Just to clarify, I took the point of this post to be that complaints about charedim refusing to serve in the IDF are similar to complaints made by Luther about the Jews. I argued in response that it's more akin to a hypothetical case where Eisenhower complains that Jews refuse to fight the Nazis along with their fellow Americans. Is your response that all 3 are in fact equivalent?
I've reread your Luther quote, and I don't see him complaining that Jews to fight in wars. So far as I can tell, he's upset that they seem to have too much money, which they get by lending money with interest to Christians. Not relevant to anything related to the IDF.
I was referring to this line: "They have no reason to act this way, since we show them every kindness. They live among us, enjoy our shield and protection..." and "We do not labor, and yet we enjoy prosperity and leisure. The accursed Goyim have to work for us, but we get their money." It's not exactly the same thing, but a similar complaint about the selfish Jews who don't help the community but rely on them.
To your other comment, they are equivalent in terms of the reasons why religious Jews wouldn't fight. The complaints others could have about this avoidance could be based on either ignorance, indifference, or antipathy towards the Jewish religion. In the case of the person I was talking about, it's probably a mixture of all three.
"It's not exactly the same thing, but a similar complaint about the selfish Jews who don't help the community but rely on them."
It's not relevant unless you can show that Luther regarded Jews as equal citizens with all of the rights and responsibilities which Christians had. That's part of why I keep insisting on the comparison to WWII. You can't simply make a 'gezeirah shava' selfish-selfish.
Luther makes it very clear that if the Jews would just reject their horrible religion and convert, he would welcome them with open arms. He considers them selfish, terrible people for not doing so.
Happy, you have a very wicked sense of humor.
https://www.inn.co.il/news/612481
I don't agree with everything he writes, but he makes some good points
In my opinion, many of the arguments back and further here miss the point. This is not a neatly-packaged Halachic argument where varied pesukim, sugyos or Halachic rulings can be trotted out to determine a proper path. The future of Klal Yisrael depends upon the Yeshivos and the purity of our educational frameworks. Period. Some communal decisions might indeed be less than ideal for individuals, but the policy in place to discourage Yeshiva boys from joining the Army is predicated upon a broader agenda.
Perhaps you should brush up on your history and geography. All part of God's wisdom. Rashi wouldn't have been conscripted into William's army. Why? because Troyes was in France south-east of Paris closer to the Rhineland. William was king of the Normans. A different country.
Good try. But an incorrect example. In fact, religious Jews did go to England with William.
You should brush up on your reading comprehension. See the footnote again.
You flatter yourself if you think I read through your article. What did the footnote say?
If you admit that you can't even bother reading, that would explain why you are so ignorant of history and geography as well.
It's okay Happy. Now everyone knows that mb is retarded, not just me.
Once again, rude.
You didn't read the post and still commented on it, wrongly. You not only didn't contribute to the discussion, you detracted it from it. Further, you thought were clever while doing so. That's rude as well as retarded.
You flatter Happy anyway because you are commenting. It's just a benefit that you do so without bothering to know what you are commenting on.
There is nothing wrong with silence as a default setting.
I think there is one point that is often overlooked by those touting the Yeshivat Hesder approach. The dirty little secret is that the overwhelming majority of religious Zionist young men choose not to go to Hesder, but go straight to the Army (or assuage their conscience with a 10 month Mechinah). The results are similar to that wrought by YU to modern Orthodoxy in the USA, who insisted that secular education has spiritual value along with Torah studies, and 'look at our robust Beis Medrash learning!' 'And these boys can do both!' Yes, but the overwhelming majority of graduates of MO high schools choose instead to go to fully secular colleges, preferably the Ivy League, a natural result of YU putting secular studies on a pedestal.
Those touting Hesder dont approve of those who go straight to the army. Even for those not cut out for yeshiva we still have mechinot. Whats wrong with a 10 month mechina? Do you think everyone should spend years learning weather or not theyre interested? People may be coming from weak backgrounds but the yeshiva/mechina system itself seems prerty solid.
Chesder is hardly a solution. Because the army is still treif.
It's not solely about "weak backgrounds." It is mamash treif. Tell yourself otherwise. I have sons who served and I know the truth.
הסדר not חסדר. How many ppl came in as strong datim-leumim and went off? If you come in with the conviction that you want to fight for עם ישראל and do the רצון ה' you should be fine. Many datim also go off in university (probably more than in the army). Is that also אסור?
Btw the fact that you dont know how to say הסדר is an indication if something. Your sons served? In OTD נחל חרדי?
An indication of lack of fluency in Hebrew. Not retardation.
Are you retarded or illiterate? Which is it?
"As it is, I heard from my two sons that served in Tomer Givati..."
Oh so clever.
Nu? They did hesder or nachal charedi?
You changed the subject. Converse with yourself.