Most Charedim arent militant Kahanists or chashmonaim. They just want to be supported and defended by others while they attain a personal connection with הקב"ה. They have no aspiration for a violent takeover. What does wielding power mean when you believe your in Galut until an eagle flies down and swoops BMG and transports it next to the Beit Hamikdash which also plopped down from heaven!? It's an oxymoron! That's why there was an MK who declared that Chareidim will always be a minority. It would be a theological problem for them if they were in charge and had to take national responsibility like we had before the galut! They want to live the life of a kehila, not a Medinah!
That's when chareidim are a small minority. As they become bigger, they will want more of a say in how things are done. With all due respect, a straw man opinion of some unnamed MK is not exactly convincing. In any case I am talking about what happens if they start drafting chareidim en masse. Then they will certainly become Chashmonaim, make no mistake.
My hope is that they will effect change and come to view Israel as theirs just like its mine. They are already integrating more and that does scare much of the left who would rather them stay in BneiBrak. Once the חרדה melts away and they realize that this our land and Hashem is putting it in our hands. It depends on what we do with such responsibility.
Again, I can't figure out if this is real or a satire. "Chareidim are religious extremists by any standard" - Really? Please speak for yourself and not in the name of ALL charedim. Most charedim do not desire a strict Torah theocracy before Moshiach - they just want to be left alone. This is exactly the type of view that gives ammunition to the secularist to say charedim want take over when they really don't.
On a more serious note: This next century or so stands to be very interesting in terms of demography. The sexual liberalism and general moral laxity (not just in sexual matters, mind you) that Liberals (in the philosophical and political science sense) and Leftists have adopted stands to tilt populations heavily against them in the future. This gap is relatively recent since there weren't dramatic differences in birth-rates by ideology until about the 1960's or so in most countries but if you project about a century from now and these ideologies are basically dead unless you assume things like a 40% apostasy rate from devout Muslims and Christians or Charedim and serious Dati Leumi (not nominal ones) which is basically not happening (in a free society anyway).
I am not sure you're right in that respect. Many conservative and religious Christians are seeing their children leaving the fold when they embrace what they are taught in school. The liberals realize this and that is why they take control of the school system. So 40% apostacy rate isn't that crazy, though you are probably right about Muslims and surely Jews.
I recall recently seeing a study that in every single country in the world, including Iran, as the country becomes more developed, it becomes less religious. With one exception.... Israel!
That could be true. But lets be honest; the growth among chareidim is not due to the high level of engineering but demographics; its because they have more children.
That's mainly happening in the US which hasn't hit rock bottom yet and are relatively early on in this process. As reviewed in the Kaiserbauch video in countries like the Czech Republic the younger generations (university level) are becoming *more* Christian.
"They really, REALLY believe that ideally, Shabbos violators and homosexuals should be dealt with appropriately according to the Torah, morality police should roam the street and fine people who are dressed immodestly, kefira universities should be closed, and all immoral secular entertainment should be shut down immediately. They desire a strict Torah theocracy."
Question: What does "dealt with appropriately" mean in concrete terms given that lack a Sanhedrin to dole out capital punishment nowadays? Additionally, what exactly do you think should be done with kofrim (outside the universities) and who's defining kefira for this purpose?
Even without a Sanhedrin and king, the kehilla can enforce adherence to the Torah. This was common throughout the galus in various places and is mentioned in Rishonim and Shu"t, I will try to get you a couple of mareh mekomos. In any case we hope to have a Sanhedrin soon.
Kofrim can be warned to not publicize their views. We would need an agreement among the Rabbonim to define kefira, but some stuff is obviously included.
Enforcing is only an option if it will work to bring people back to Torah. If it will have them keep Torah in public out of fear, secretly hating Torah and its adherents, the Chazon Ish is quite clear that it would not be correct. Even if Torah observant Jews are the majority.
It's also quite clear that even with a BD, they stopped enforcing capital punishment, even when they could, when things got too bad.
Unless, when moshiach comes there is a widespread automatic knowledge that homosexuality is wrong, it's going to be a while before capital enforcement takes place.
I am also aware how some believe there will be instant knowledge of torah u'mitzvos when moshiach comes, but like all ma'amorei chazal we don't know which are literal and which are not. Clearly those chut,niks buying expensive luxury apartments in yerusholayim do not believe they will be destroyed in milchamas gog u'magog, nor do they take literally the plan in Yechezkel for the nosi's land to extend most of the way to tel aviv.
Re your last sentence: Zechariah says that "half of the city will go out in exile," implying that the other half won't. Maybe those chutzniks hope to be among the half that will remain? (And even if not, doesn't mean that they'll never see the apartments again.) Similarly as far as the Nasi's land: maybe they figure they'll be able to sell said apartments to him for a nice price, or even lease them back from him or something?
Maybe. There are numerous generally unclear ma'amorei chazal. None of them are particularly reassuring when it comes to real estate in that part of the world.
While you're on it can you also get me the sources about how Beis Din should appoint guardians to ensure the men and women aren't mingling. I'm having trouble finding them. I remember seeing them awhile back.
Amen. Great post!
Most Charedim arent militant Kahanists or chashmonaim. They just want to be supported and defended by others while they attain a personal connection with הקב"ה. They have no aspiration for a violent takeover. What does wielding power mean when you believe your in Galut until an eagle flies down and swoops BMG and transports it next to the Beit Hamikdash which also plopped down from heaven!? It's an oxymoron! That's why there was an MK who declared that Chareidim will always be a minority. It would be a theological problem for them if they were in charge and had to take national responsibility like we had before the galut! They want to live the life of a kehila, not a Medinah!
That's when chareidim are a small minority. As they become bigger, they will want more of a say in how things are done. With all due respect, a straw man opinion of some unnamed MK is not exactly convincing. In any case I am talking about what happens if they start drafting chareidim en masse. Then they will certainly become Chashmonaim, make no mistake.
My hope is that they will effect change and come to view Israel as theirs just like its mine. They are already integrating more and that does scare much of the left who would rather them stay in BneiBrak. Once the חרדה melts away and they realize that this our land and Hashem is putting it in our hands. It depends on what we do with such responsibility.
Again, I can't figure out if this is real or a satire. "Chareidim are religious extremists by any standard" - Really? Please speak for yourself and not in the name of ALL charedim. Most charedim do not desire a strict Torah theocracy before Moshiach - they just want to be left alone. This is exactly the type of view that gives ammunition to the secularist to say charedim want take over when they really don't.
A different perspective on this here:
https://www.hyehudi.org/civil-war-can-occur-but-not-through-all-charedi-army-units/
And Slifkin's "Benefits of Religion" series is hardly less true of Avoda Zara...
I laughed at the Slifkin comment
On a more serious note: This next century or so stands to be very interesting in terms of demography. The sexual liberalism and general moral laxity (not just in sexual matters, mind you) that Liberals (in the philosophical and political science sense) and Leftists have adopted stands to tilt populations heavily against them in the future. This gap is relatively recent since there weren't dramatic differences in birth-rates by ideology until about the 1960's or so in most countries but if you project about a century from now and these ideologies are basically dead unless you assume things like a 40% apostasy rate from devout Muslims and Christians or Charedim and serious Dati Leumi (not nominal ones) which is basically not happening (in a free society anyway).
Fascinating video that goes through most of Europe on this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnIo2zQOYPw (I know it's long but it's nice and thorough)
Also, I wonder how this'll play out with the dynamic with Muslim immigrants to Europe vs native Europeans. Already, as per Eric Zemmour Islam is the most widely practiced religion in France (the vast majority of French "Catholics" aren't serious about their religion, Muslims are moreso) https://twitter.com/ZemmourEric/status/1641789946770890753?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1641789946770890753%7Ctwgr%5Ef6f93e7d93f396bb22427f96a6179a031e587e27%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fmuslimskeptic.com%2F2023%2F04%2F22%2Ffrances-muslim-population%2F esp. point 4 ("4. Historical tipping point: Islam becomes the first religion practiced on French soil (frequenting of a place of worship, frequency of prayers, etc.): the number of French Muslims who claim to be practicing today exceeds that of Catholics who claim to be practicing.") and a lot of Native French seem to resent that. It's gonna be a wild ride.
I am not sure you're right in that respect. Many conservative and religious Christians are seeing their children leaving the fold when they embrace what they are taught in school. The liberals realize this and that is why they take control of the school system. So 40% apostacy rate isn't that crazy, though you are probably right about Muslims and surely Jews.
I recall recently seeing a study that in every single country in the world, including Iran, as the country becomes more developed, it becomes less religious. With one exception.... Israel!
That could be true. But lets be honest; the growth among chareidim is not due to the high level of engineering but demographics; its because they have more children.
That's mainly happening in the US which hasn't hit rock bottom yet and are relatively early on in this process. As reviewed in the Kaiserbauch video in countries like the Czech Republic the younger generations (university level) are becoming *more* Christian.
I hear. So basically us Americans have plenty still to worry about!
"They really, REALLY believe that ideally, Shabbos violators and homosexuals should be dealt with appropriately according to the Torah, morality police should roam the street and fine people who are dressed immodestly, kefira universities should be closed, and all immoral secular entertainment should be shut down immediately. They desire a strict Torah theocracy."
Question: What does "dealt with appropriately" mean in concrete terms given that lack a Sanhedrin to dole out capital punishment nowadays? Additionally, what exactly do you think should be done with kofrim (outside the universities) and who's defining kefira for this purpose?
See Rambam Issurei Biah 11:15, Teshuvos Rashba 4:264, Terumas Hadeshen Psakim 214
Even without a Sanhedrin and king, the kehilla can enforce adherence to the Torah. This was common throughout the galus in various places and is mentioned in Rishonim and Shu"t, I will try to get you a couple of mareh mekomos. In any case we hope to have a Sanhedrin soon.
Kofrim can be warned to not publicize their views. We would need an agreement among the Rabbonim to define kefira, but some stuff is obviously included.
Enforcing is only an option if it will work to bring people back to Torah. If it will have them keep Torah in public out of fear, secretly hating Torah and its adherents, the Chazon Ish is quite clear that it would not be correct. Even if Torah observant Jews are the majority.
As our dear Natan has demonstrated, they will love it
It's also quite clear that even with a BD, they stopped enforcing capital punishment, even when they could, when things got too bad.
Unless, when moshiach comes there is a widespread automatic knowledge that homosexuality is wrong, it's going to be a while before capital enforcement takes place.
I am also aware how some believe there will be instant knowledge of torah u'mitzvos when moshiach comes, but like all ma'amorei chazal we don't know which are literal and which are not. Clearly those chut,niks buying expensive luxury apartments in yerusholayim do not believe they will be destroyed in milchamas gog u'magog, nor do they take literally the plan in Yechezkel for the nosi's land to extend most of the way to tel aviv.
Re your last sentence: Zechariah says that "half of the city will go out in exile," implying that the other half won't. Maybe those chutzniks hope to be among the half that will remain? (And even if not, doesn't mean that they'll never see the apartments again.) Similarly as far as the Nasi's land: maybe they figure they'll be able to sell said apartments to him for a nice price, or even lease them back from him or something?
Maybe. There are numerous generally unclear ma'amorei chazal. None of them are particularly reassuring when it comes to real estate in that part of the world.
While you're on it can you also get me the sources about how Beis Din should appoint guardians to ensure the men and women aren't mingling. I'm having trouble finding them. I remember seeing them awhile back.
It's in Shulchan Aruch at the end of Hilchos Yom tov. Last page of Mishna Berura Vol. 5
Are you referring to the tikun gadol that Chazal instituted by the simchas beis hashoeiva in the Bais Hamikdash?
Maybe. I saw it a long time ago so I may be misremembering.
Most chareidim actually consider them to be Tinkkot shenishba. That's the Chazon Ishs view
Don't worry, they won't be half as creative as the rationalizations that men can turn into women, lol