This would be funny if it wasn't so tragic. Let's make it a little more accurate: The Hollanders were using a novel material to build the walls, very light and easy to work with, not used anywhere else in the world. The Rescue Corps, skeptical if such a light material could really withstand floods, asked them if they could provide any evidence that it actually worked. But the Hollanders point-blank refused and insisted that no proof was needed. Meanwhile, they couldn't point to a single case where the waters surged and were stopped by the wall, whereas there were several cases where the water surged and tore through the wall like it wasn't there. And the Hollanders themselves, while they insisted that the walls were effective and were doing a good job protecting their own town, refused to ever rely on their walls in any way, not going to any part of the country unless the Rescue Corps were there and also demanding that just as many people from the Rescue Corps were needed for the Hollander town as for everywhere else. It also turned out that some Hollanders admitted that it was actually for other reasons that they wanted to spend time building walls with this material than training in the Rescue Corps - namely, that they enjoyed working with this material, whereas the training for the Rescue Corps was difficult and risky and harmful to their way of life. And so the Rescue Corps realized that all the claims of this material being actually useful to prevent floods was a scam, which the Hollanders had come up to justify their actions to themselves.
Right, your stream-of-consciousness block of text has described the point of view of the Rescue Corps very well. They never studied Holland or walls or any such things, and just made baseless and grossly ignorant claims about the quality of the walls. They also made false claims about history, ignoring the many times that the surge was very high and would obviously have inundated the city without the walls, asserting that "we can't know that the walls ever work because sometimes there are still floods".
All of this refusal to see reality stemmed from their rejection of the existence of Holland, and their bitter resentment of the Hollanders.
Of course they rejected the existence of Holland. There wasn't a single time in history when "Holland" (the Jewish People defending themselves against their enemies SOLELY with Torah) ever existed!
My son נ"י who is serving in an elite unit, told me before the war, and also now, that the secular חיילים told him that he and the other religious חיילים are better soldiers because of שמירת תורה ולימוד תורה
And the soldiers serving in our יישוב (which is a frontline יישוב), some of whom are religious and some are not, asked us to learn in ישיבה as part of their combat.
Yeah, lots of times. Hundreds, thousands of times. Familiar with the Haggadah? בכל דור ודור עומדים עלינו לכלותינו והקב"ה מצילנו מידם.
Or עֻצוּ עֵצָה וְתֻפָר דַּבְּרוּ דָבָר וְלֹא יָקוּם כִּי עִמָּנוּ אֵל. Remember the story of King Chizkiya and Sennacherib (Malachim 2 chapter 19, Yeshaya chapter 37), a neis nigleh which is a דוגמא לדורות for the countless nissim nistarim with which Hashem saves us all the time.
If slifkin lived during the Purim sorry, would be attribute the hatzala to teshuva? Or would he read the events as a natural progression, where Haman found favor and list it to mordechai etc...?
Tell me, in the Chanukah story, what is stressed - the war, or the teshuvah? Why do you think that is?
But again, there is a difference between sitting and doing nothing and relying on 'torah and mitzvos protects', and acknowledging that torah and mitzvos do indeed protect. The former is subject to all sorts of caveats, have you heard of 'shema tigrom hacheit', or 'shechiach hezaeika'? Or maybe now, like every other time it all goes wrong is a time of 'hester ponim'? Was the Vilna Gaon permitted to rely on torah protects and not leave the bH if a fire broke out there? Why? What about Dovid Hamelech. Chazal say cleary his torah protected him from the malach hamoves. So could he jump into a bath full of acid whilst learning torah? Would he fall from great heights unscathed? Do you think so? What about Yackov? Petrified of eisov? What about his learning? Why? Do you have a tiny tot who told you this year about Soroh in the box? Why didn't Avrohom just learn?
Name a SINGLE instance where a massacre of the Jews was prevented by people who ONLY learned Torah.
(And it's amazing that you're describing the Rescue Corps as not studying the efficacy of the walls - it's the Hollanders who refuse to analyze the efficacy of the walls!)
Yeah, lots of times. Hundreds, thousands of times. Familiar with the Haggadah? בכל דור ודור עומדים עלינו לכלותינו והקב"ה מצילנו מידם.
Or עֻצוּ עֵצָה וְתֻפָר דַּבְּרוּ דָבָר וְלֹא יָקוּם כִּי עִמָּנוּ אֵל. Remember the story of King Chizkiya and Sennacherib (Malachim 2 chapter 19, Yeshaya chapter 37), a neis nigleh which is a דוגמא לדורות for the countless nissim nistarim with which Hashem saves us all the time.
October six, there was no massacre that day. Or the day before, before and before. As they say, lack of evidence is not evidence, and it is neither proof. But תורה מגין means something, and that at least means we are saved from wars coming upon us to begin with.
Hope you get my point. Protection means it doesn't happen to begin with. Yes, when the merits are not enough we need to fight to - with the guidelines given by the Torah:
במדבר רבה פרשת מטות פרשה כב
י"א שני אלפים מכל שבט ושבט שלח וי"א ג' אלפים מכל שבט ושבט י"ב אלף משמרים את כליהם עליהם נאמר (שיר /השירים/ ד) שניך כעדר הקצובות (וגו') שכולם מתאימות וי"ב אלף לתפלה
Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz said this point by the YK war.
and again, let's even say such a situation never existed. i'll concede for arguments sake. but first, Hashem has plenty of shluchim (tzahal in our case perhaps). but further, what does that have to do with chareidim not learning and joining to the army instead? even if Torah needs other things, does that mean Torah does NOT protect? shouldn't that be something to help protect as well, in which we do us and you do you and we cover both ends! why hate the other side?
No, it wasn't a slip. I'm perfectly well aware of the level of difficulty involved in shteiging over a ketzos. If you think that this is remotely as difficult as going off to fight in Gaza, you are just totally clueless.
you really have no idea how hard it is to give up all the tantalizing joys of life to study Torah, not because you want to but because you have to. not putting down fighting in an army, but as the חובות הלבבות says (amongst others), "now is time for the REAL war!" the daily fight against the יצר הרע is really REALLY hard bro
ואמרו על חסיד שפגע אנשים שבים ממלחמת אויבים ושללו שלל אחר מלחמה חזקה אמר להם שבתם מן המלחמה הקטנה שוללים שלל התעתדו למלחמה הגדולה אמרו לו ומה היא המלחמה הגדולה אמר להם מלחמת היצר וחייליו.
the evidence you are looking for won't be found in a test tube or in a lab. it is found in Chazal and in our Mesorah
but who said anything about "only"? we're happy that there is a tzahal. but does that mean a yeshiva boy has to lose out on the years of developing appreciation for Torah because of that? let him learn and taste its sweetness, and perhaps then continue and fulfill his obligation of being a master of Torah! we need more of those, not less. this is how klal Yisroel stays alive!
‘Twas a dangerous cliff, as they freely confessed, Though to walk near its crest was so pleasant: But over its terrible edge there had slipped A duke and many a peasant; So the people said something would have to be done. But their projects did not at all tally: Some said, “Put a fence around the edge of the cliff “Some, “An ambulance down in the valley.”
But the cry for the ambulance carried the day, For it spread to the neighboring city: A fence may be useful or not, it is true, But each heart became brimful of pity. For those who had slipped o’er that dangerous cliff, And the dwellers in highway and alley Gave pounds or gave pence, not to put up a fence, But an ambulance down in the valley.
“For the cliff is alright if you’re careful,” they said, “and if folks even slip or are dropping, it isn’t the slipping that hurts them so much as the shock down below-when they’re stopping,” So day after day when these mishaps occurred, Quick forth would the rescuers sally, To pick up the victims who fell off the cliff, With their ambulance down in the valley.
Then an old man remarked, “it’s a marvel to me that people give far more attention, To repairing results than to stopping the cause, when they’d much better aim at prevention. Let us stop at its source all this mischief, cried he. “Come neighbors and friends let us rally: If the cliff we will fence, we might almost dispense with the ambulance down in the valley.”
“He is wrong in the head.” the majority said, “he would end all our earnest endeavor” He’d dispense with all charities, too, if he could: no, no! We’ll support them forever. Aren’t we picking up all just as fast as they fall, And giving them care liberally? A superfluous fence is no consequence, if the ambulance works in the valley?”
What complete nonsense! Your mashal is cute except you need to change the "wall builders" to the rain dancers. The rain dancers - made up people from the "singers and dancers tribe" believed that all successful rescue missions could be attributed to their rain dances. However, there were plenty of people in their own tribe who weren't sure if the dances worked because there was no way to test the hypothesis that the dances actually did anything to prevent floods. But you never know... so the skeptics danced but also were part of the rescue corp.
do you realize that this is EXACTLY our point: Torah *does* protect. you can disagree but then let's get down to the facts of who's right. let's not hide behind repetitions...
You are 100% right. We are not going to agree. However, you seem to agree that someone must serve in the army and be placed in mortal danger. Do you have any idea what it is like to bentch your child at bakum (before basic training) or when they leave home on a Sunday morning knowing exactly what position your child is going to be put in? העוקד והנעקד על גבי המזבח.
Is a charedi child's life worth more than a dati leumi/mesorati/chiloni child's life? I certainly don't think so. What gives you the right to decide that your child is going to learn while someone else's child will fight?
Even within your belief system you can do both - learn and serve. have you heard of Hesder? As an aside - the story goes that in 1973, my own Rosh Yeshiva, Rav Aharon Lichtenstein zt"l, seeing that he couldn't serve in the army due to his age, became a mail-man in Jerusalem. I am quite sure that Rav Aharon found time to both learn and volunteer (as do many many of our chayalim).
My point is when there is a national requirement for everyone to serve, it is unethical and inappropriate to say, my son will learn (because I believe it is more effective) but someone else's child gets to be put in mortal danger.
If another population in Israel (not Jewish but eligible/required to serve in the army) announced that their belief held that eating humus is actually protecting the country, would you have a problem when they sent none of their sons to the army but instead had them sit all day and eat humus? But they would argue, "it works!".
Nothing particular about chareidim. Anyone who wants to seriously become a gadol batorah has this 'exemption.' My approach is basically what reb Moshe outlines in igros yd vol. 4 siman 36 (mainly what he described in ois 10) see there. He's talking about college, not the army but same idea (tho I would add that those who will go on to teach Torah are probably included as well)
That being said, there are a lot of people who are in the beis midrash who aren't being responsible with their avoda of learning and should probably be doing some klal work in the more conventional way, although honestly, like reb Moshe says, they're optionally being lazy and need to buckle down in their learning more....
One last important caveat, the most formidable years for learning really begin at 18 and go for about 5 years and I'm not sure how we can easily give that up even for people who won't become rabbis and teachers. Our entire continuity as a nation rests on the appreciation of the depths of Torah (and an individual's agreement to halacha for the rest of his life goes by his appreciation of what Torah really is...) I speak here as a former atheist. So to ignore that whole chapter is very difficult. Again, I agree that there is room for improvement in the area of teaching responsibility but chinuch is difficult (I can expound if that's not clear)
(Btw I wonder y rabbi Lichtenstein was "too old' why didn't he join earlier? Was he learning then?)
However, there was a small cadre...
Not so small...
Actually the fastest growing part of the Rescue Corps!
This would be funny if it wasn't so tragic. Let's make it a little more accurate: The Hollanders were using a novel material to build the walls, very light and easy to work with, not used anywhere else in the world. The Rescue Corps, skeptical if such a light material could really withstand floods, asked them if they could provide any evidence that it actually worked. But the Hollanders point-blank refused and insisted that no proof was needed. Meanwhile, they couldn't point to a single case where the waters surged and were stopped by the wall, whereas there were several cases where the water surged and tore through the wall like it wasn't there. And the Hollanders themselves, while they insisted that the walls were effective and were doing a good job protecting their own town, refused to ever rely on their walls in any way, not going to any part of the country unless the Rescue Corps were there and also demanding that just as many people from the Rescue Corps were needed for the Hollander town as for everywhere else. It also turned out that some Hollanders admitted that it was actually for other reasons that they wanted to spend time building walls with this material than training in the Rescue Corps - namely, that they enjoyed working with this material, whereas the training for the Rescue Corps was difficult and risky and harmful to their way of life. And so the Rescue Corps realized that all the claims of this material being actually useful to prevent floods was a scam, which the Hollanders had come up to justify their actions to themselves.
Right, your stream-of-consciousness block of text has described the point of view of the Rescue Corps very well. They never studied Holland or walls or any such things, and just made baseless and grossly ignorant claims about the quality of the walls. They also made false claims about history, ignoring the many times that the surge was very high and would obviously have inundated the city without the walls, asserting that "we can't know that the walls ever work because sometimes there are still floods".
All of this refusal to see reality stemmed from their rejection of the existence of Holland, and their bitter resentment of the Hollanders.
Of course they rejected the existence of Holland. There wasn't a single time in history when "Holland" (the Jewish People defending themselves against their enemies SOLELY with Torah) ever existed!
That's not what R' Happy נ"י wrote.
He wrote the exact opposite.
My son נ"י who is serving in an elite unit, told me before the war, and also now, that the secular חיילים told him that he and the other religious חיילים are better soldiers because of שמירת תורה ולימוד תורה
And the soldiers serving in our יישוב (which is a frontline יישוב), some of whom are religious and some are not, asked us to learn in ישיבה as part of their combat.
I believe the expression is No atheist in a foxhole or something like that.
And therefore?
Yeah, lots of times. Hundreds, thousands of times. Familiar with the Haggadah? בכל דור ודור עומדים עלינו לכלותינו והקב"ה מצילנו מידם.
Or עֻצוּ עֵצָה וְתֻפָר דַּבְּרוּ דָבָר וְלֹא יָקוּם כִּי עִמָּנוּ אֵל. Remember the story of King Chizkiya and Sennacherib (Malachim 2 chapter 19, Yeshaya chapter 37), a neis nigleh which is a דוגמא לדורות for the countless nissim nistarim with which Hashem saves us all the time.
Seriously? Nobody is denying Hashem saves us a people. Completely irrelevant to anything here.
If slifkin lived during the Purim sorry, would be attribute the hatzala to teshuva? Or would he read the events as a natural progression, where Haman found favor and list it to mordechai etc...?
Why are you asking me, ask him?
Tell me, in the Chanukah story, what is stressed - the war, or the teshuvah? Why do you think that is?
But again, there is a difference between sitting and doing nothing and relying on 'torah and mitzvos protects', and acknowledging that torah and mitzvos do indeed protect. The former is subject to all sorts of caveats, have you heard of 'shema tigrom hacheit', or 'shechiach hezaeika'? Or maybe now, like every other time it all goes wrong is a time of 'hester ponim'? Was the Vilna Gaon permitted to rely on torah protects and not leave the bH if a fire broke out there? Why? What about Dovid Hamelech. Chazal say cleary his torah protected him from the malach hamoves. So could he jump into a bath full of acid whilst learning torah? Would he fall from great heights unscathed? Do you think so? What about Yackov? Petrified of eisov? What about his learning? Why? Do you have a tiny tot who told you this year about Soroh in the box? Why didn't Avrohom just learn?
Do you actually think?
Name a SINGLE instance where a massacre of the Jews was prevented by people who ONLY learned Torah.
(And it's amazing that you're describing the Rescue Corps as not studying the efficacy of the walls - it's the Hollanders who refuse to analyze the efficacy of the walls!)
Again, that's not what he wrote.
Walls alone protect against water. Not always perfectly, but they do it. Show me a single instance of Torah ALONE protecting.
Yeah, lots of times. Hundreds, thousands of times. Familiar with the Haggadah? בכל דור ודור עומדים עלינו לכלותינו והקב"ה מצילנו מידם.
Or עֻצוּ עֵצָה וְתֻפָר דַּבְּרוּ דָבָר וְלֹא יָקוּם כִּי עִמָּנוּ אֵל. Remember the story of King Chizkiya and Sennacherib (Malachim 2 chapter 19, Yeshaya chapter 37), a neis nigleh which is a דוגמא לדורות for the countless nissim nistarim with which Hashem saves us all the time.
In none of those cases were there masses of people in full-time learning! It never happened before in history!
October six, there was no massacre that day. Or the day before, before and before. As they say, lack of evidence is not evidence, and it is neither proof. But תורה מגין means something, and that at least means we are saved from wars coming upon us to begin with.
Hope you get my point. Protection means it doesn't happen to begin with. Yes, when the merits are not enough we need to fight to - with the guidelines given by the Torah:
במדבר רבה פרשת מטות פרשה כב
י"א שני אלפים מכל שבט ושבט שלח וי"א ג' אלפים מכל שבט ושבט י"ב אלף משמרים את כליהם עליהם נאמר (שיר /השירים/ ד) שניך כעדר הקצובות (וגו') שכולם מתאימות וי"ב אלף לתפלה
Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz said this point by the YK war.
and again, let's even say such a situation never existed. i'll concede for arguments sake. but first, Hashem has plenty of shluchim (tzahal in our case perhaps). but further, what does that have to do with chareidim not learning and joining to the army instead? even if Torah needs other things, does that mean Torah does NOT protect? shouldn't that be something to help protect as well, in which we do us and you do you and we cover both ends! why hate the other side?
AFAIK, that's not what R Happy נ"י wrote.
It's cert. not what I wrote.
Also, was this "very light and easy to work with" a freudian slip? Because we already know that this is how you view learning Torah, no such thing as knowing how to learn, simply a matter of "analyzing texts". And keeping the Torah is much easier when you can just be mattir things whenever you want https://rationalistjudaism.blogspot.com/2022/08/can-my-daughter-sing.html and avoid mitzvos because of dumb excuses like you don't want to "rock the boat" (😂😂😂)! https://rationalistjudaism.blogspot.com/2014/01/why-people-dont-wear-techeles.html
No, it wasn't a slip. I'm perfectly well aware of the level of difficulty involved in shteiging over a ketzos. If you think that this is remotely as difficult as going off to fight in Gaza, you are just totally clueless.
The Sema was so right when he said דעת בעלי בתים הפך מדעת תורה (and although I am a baal habayis myself, I think he was talking about you, not me).
Oh my gosh, I was literally about to quote that Chovos Halevavos and then I see the "new reply" from Shulman saying it! Thanks Shulman!
you really have no idea how hard it is to give up all the tantalizing joys of life to study Torah, not because you want to but because you have to. not putting down fighting in an army, but as the חובות הלבבות says (amongst others), "now is time for the REAL war!" the daily fight against the יצר הרע is really REALLY hard bro
ואמרו על חסיד שפגע אנשים שבים ממלחמת אויבים ושללו שלל אחר מלחמה חזקה אמר להם שבתם מן המלחמה הקטנה שוללים שלל התעתדו למלחמה הגדולה אמרו לו ומה היא המלחמה הגדולה אמר להם מלחמת היצר וחייליו.
(חובות הלבבות שער יחוד המעשה ה)
the evidence you are looking for won't be found in a test tube or in a lab. it is found in Chazal and in our Mesorah
but who said anything about "only"? we're happy that there is a tzahal. but does that mean a yeshiva boy has to lose out on the years of developing appreciation for Torah because of that? let him learn and taste its sweetness, and perhaps then continue and fulfill his obligation of being a master of Torah! we need more of those, not less. this is how klal Yisroel stays alive!
The Fence or The Ambulance by Joseph Malins 1895
‘Twas a dangerous cliff, as they freely confessed, Though to walk near its crest was so pleasant: But over its terrible edge there had slipped A duke and many a peasant; So the people said something would have to be done. But their projects did not at all tally: Some said, “Put a fence around the edge of the cliff “Some, “An ambulance down in the valley.”
But the cry for the ambulance carried the day, For it spread to the neighboring city: A fence may be useful or not, it is true, But each heart became brimful of pity. For those who had slipped o’er that dangerous cliff, And the dwellers in highway and alley Gave pounds or gave pence, not to put up a fence, But an ambulance down in the valley.
“For the cliff is alright if you’re careful,” they said, “and if folks even slip or are dropping, it isn’t the slipping that hurts them so much as the shock down below-when they’re stopping,” So day after day when these mishaps occurred, Quick forth would the rescuers sally, To pick up the victims who fell off the cliff, With their ambulance down in the valley.
Then an old man remarked, “it’s a marvel to me that people give far more attention, To repairing results than to stopping the cause, when they’d much better aim at prevention. Let us stop at its source all this mischief, cried he. “Come neighbors and friends let us rally: If the cliff we will fence, we might almost dispense with the ambulance down in the valley.”
“He is wrong in the head.” the majority said, “he would end all our earnest endeavor” He’d dispense with all charities, too, if he could: no, no! We’ll support them forever. Aren’t we picking up all just as fast as they fall, And giving them care liberally? A superfluous fence is no consequence, if the ambulance works in the valley?”
https://hebrewbooks.org/48738
What complete nonsense! Your mashal is cute except you need to change the "wall builders" to the rain dancers. The rain dancers - made up people from the "singers and dancers tribe" believed that all successful rescue missions could be attributed to their rain dances. However, there were plenty of people in their own tribe who weren't sure if the dances worked because there was no way to test the hypothesis that the dances actually did anything to prevent floods. But you never know... so the skeptics danced but also were part of the rescue corp.
Right, you have described Slifkin's view of the Torah very well. Thank you.
you nailed it. Well done.
do you realize that this is EXACTLY our point: Torah *does* protect. you can disagree but then let's get down to the facts of who's right. let's not hide behind repetitions...
You are 100% right. We are not going to agree. However, you seem to agree that someone must serve in the army and be placed in mortal danger. Do you have any idea what it is like to bentch your child at bakum (before basic training) or when they leave home on a Sunday morning knowing exactly what position your child is going to be put in? העוקד והנעקד על גבי המזבח.
Is a charedi child's life worth more than a dati leumi/mesorati/chiloni child's life? I certainly don't think so. What gives you the right to decide that your child is going to learn while someone else's child will fight?
Even within your belief system you can do both - learn and serve. have you heard of Hesder? As an aside - the story goes that in 1973, my own Rosh Yeshiva, Rav Aharon Lichtenstein zt"l, seeing that he couldn't serve in the army due to his age, became a mail-man in Jerusalem. I am quite sure that Rav Aharon found time to both learn and volunteer (as do many many of our chayalim).
A. I don't understand your point at all.
I have a son in צה"ל in an elite unit ב"ה
I have a son who is learning in שיעור ו' בישיבה גבוהה, ב"ה
I am very happy with both of them, and have 'הכרת הטוב לה that both of them are doing their תפקיד for עם ישראל
I have no problem with בחורי ישיבה learning תורה.
BTW, I was in צה"ל, since I wasn't a בחור ישיבה
B. יעויין בדברי הגרמ"צ נריה זצ"ל
https://hebrewbooks.org/48738
My point is when there is a national requirement for everyone to serve, it is unethical and inappropriate to say, my son will learn (because I believe it is more effective) but someone else's child gets to be put in mortal danger.
If another population in Israel (not Jewish but eligible/required to serve in the army) announced that their belief held that eating humus is actually protecting the country, would you have a problem when they sent none of their sons to the army but instead had them sit all day and eat humus? But they would argue, "it works!".
Nothing particular about chareidim. Anyone who wants to seriously become a gadol batorah has this 'exemption.' My approach is basically what reb Moshe outlines in igros yd vol. 4 siman 36 (mainly what he described in ois 10) see there. He's talking about college, not the army but same idea (tho I would add that those who will go on to teach Torah are probably included as well)
That being said, there are a lot of people who are in the beis midrash who aren't being responsible with their avoda of learning and should probably be doing some klal work in the more conventional way, although honestly, like reb Moshe says, they're optionally being lazy and need to buckle down in their learning more....
One last important caveat, the most formidable years for learning really begin at 18 and go for about 5 years and I'm not sure how we can easily give that up even for people who won't become rabbis and teachers. Our entire continuity as a nation rests on the appreciation of the depths of Torah (and an individual's agreement to halacha for the rest of his life goes by his appreciation of what Torah really is...) I speak here as a former atheist. So to ignore that whole chapter is very difficult. Again, I agree that there is room for improvement in the area of teaching responsibility but chinuch is difficult (I can expound if that's not clear)
(Btw I wonder y rabbi Lichtenstein was "too old' why didn't he join earlier? Was he learning then?)
No Rav Lichtenstein was living in the United States.
Brilliant. Is this your original idea?
Yes, but like Lou points out, it is a pretty universal idea
I'll try to write it my thoughts later, but very well done!