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I'd like to highlight this comment of mine to summarize things: https://daastorah.substack.com/p/the-rebbe-is-still-alive-just-open/comment/16669743

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Ash, I just read your post. It seems that you think that I believe science to be illusory. Only what we see with our eyes is real. That is not what I said. I thought I was clear that science is very real. I believe with as much conviction as basically anything else that our bodies are made of cells and that Saturn exists and that time slows down when travelling close to the speed of light. I am not casting any doubt on science's discoveries. I firmly believe that Hashem created the world with these properties.

All I was prattling about was that this reality is not the one which determines Halacha and is not the which gives the deeper meaning that the ancient idea of science gave.

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May 25, 2023Liked by דוד

Thank you Dovid for a thought provoking post. I enjoyed reading your ideas very much! I think your main point can be more fully fleshed out with this example.

What is the tzaraas spoken about in parshas tazria and metzora? According to chazal, it is a physical manifestation of a spiritual malady. The most commonly spoken about 'spiritual malady' is the sin of speaking lashon hara. In other words, the tzaraas os caused by speaking lashon hara. Was the tzaraas a physical disease like measles, bubonic plague, or chickenpox? Was it caused by bacteria or viruses? The answer is...I don't know, but it does not matter! The cure for this disease was not ant-biotics or anti viral drugs, the cure was doing teshuva for the underlying sin that caused it.

One can look at the tzaraas through the eyes of a medical doctor only, and see it as merely some type of physical disease. Or, one can look at it through the eyes of chazal, and understand that it is a punishment for a specific sin. The reality is, that it was a punishment for a sin. A modern medical doctor of today might have described it purely as a bacterial, or fungal, or viral infection. He might even have been right. But that is not the underlying reality. The underlying reality is that it is a punishment for a sin.

The prophets, and to a lesser extent chazal, were able to see the underlying spirituality in all things. This is the spiritual realities that Hashem built into the world. Those who have access to the underlying spiritual realities, were able to use this knowledge to bypass the rules of science, to some extent. This is how those like R. Chanina ben Dosa were able to perform miracles, and this is how kishuf works as well. (See Ramban on Devarim 18:9 for a brief understanding of how kishuf works) They were able to 'see' the sins of a person written on their arm (which is why many are strict even today, that when they put the head on the arm for tachanun, they do not put their head directly on their arm, but have a talis or a jacket sleeve intervene). They were also able to 'see' in the palm of a person real insights into that person. This is not the Gypsy fortunetelling, but a real ability to 'see' things using their spiritual eyes.

As time went on, much of the understanding of the spiritual underpinnings of the world faded from mankind. We can not perform miracles like R. Chanina ben Dosa today, and much of what passes for kishuf is nothing more than light of hand. Can people still read palms today? I don't know! If such an ability still exists, those who can still do this do not advertise their services! They are not Gypsy fortunetellers!

When it come to the lice on Shabbos, since we can not see their eggs, from a Halacha standpoint they do not exist. Of course anyone can see them in a microscope! Of course sub visual bacteria, fungi, and viruses exist! That is why we take anti-biotics and vaccines! If we did not believe in anything we can not see, we would not take antibiotics or vaccines, and we all do. (Except for small groups of people who deny science altogether.) The Torahs rules are based on what we can see with our eyes, and what we can not, is ignored entirely. One can say, that the reality as defined by the Torah is, what we can see only with a microscope is irrelevant to the Halachic process. It plays no role in the Halacha or in the Halacha process. Since we can not see the lice eggs, the reality of Halacha says they do not exist. Here too, the reality of Halacha and the reality of the scientist are different. That is not a problem, they can be different, it is just that when it comes to Halacha, we use the reality of Halacha, not that of the scientist.

Did chazal know that lice really come from eggs that can not be seen? Perhaps they did, perhaps they did not. It is really irrelevant to the Halachic process, since if we can not see it, Halacha does not take it into account at all. The term I would use to describe this, is in the Halacha world what can not be seen is irrelevant. Since we can not see lice eggs, they are not taken into account at all, and we view the lice as coming from sweat. The fact that we can see lice coming from eggs with a microscope, is completely irrelevant to the Halachic process.

Did chazal know that silver is an antibiotic (Shabbos 65a, where the gemara says that a silver coin placed on a wound can aid the healing process)? Did they know about microscopic germs and this knowledge forms the basis of the Halacha? Or did they have ho knowledge of bacterial infections, but they recorded the halacha as it was taught to them by the previous generations? It really makes no difference in the Halacha at all. They recorded this Halacha, so it is Halacha. Perhaps they understood how a silver coin helps, perhaps they did not.

One can ask, and this is a good question, why would Hashem set up the world this way? Why would He create something that is not taken into account? The world is full of things that we do not know the reason why. Why does light travel at the speed of 186,000 miles per second? Why not 185,000, or 187,000, or 100,000,000? This is the way Hashem created the world, and we do not know why He created the world this way. We also do not know with certainty why Hashem created microscopic eggs and then disregarded them in the Halacha.

We can speculate, that since the ancients had no way of seeing or taking into account things that can mot be seen, Hashem taught us that they are not taken into account when deciding the Halacha. We can say the opposite, since Hashem did not want these things taken into account (for reasons known to Him), He made sure that we had no way of identifying these things. Either way, this is my own speculation, and nothing more.

Another example of Chazal knowing about the spirtual underpinnings of the world, Ezra HaSofer decreed that men should eat garlic Friday night, since it increases a man's zera (and Friday night is the appropriate time for tashmish hamitah). The Slifkins of the world will say that this is clearly nonsense, based on the foolish idea that since garlic and zera are a similar color, that is why he said to eat it. They fail to explain why Ezra said specifically garlic, not radishes or turnips which are also an off white color. Firm believers in Chazal will say, that Ezra understood the spiritual underpinnings of the world, and understood that garlic has this affect, and turnips and radishes do not. This was not based merely on the similarity of their colors, but on a deeper understanding of the spiritual underpinnings of the world. Based on that, Ezra understood that garlic will increase zera, and turnips won't, so he said we should eat garlic, and did not not say we should eat turnips. Modern science actually does say that garlic has an aphrodisiacal effect. Did Ezra know exactly why and how garlic works to increase zera? Was he able to give a scientific explanation for it? I do not know. The truth is, whether or not he knew the scientific explanation of it is irrelevant. He knew the way the world REALLY works, and was able to come to this clonclusion.

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Wow this is a very elaborate thesis! I'm not sure I necessarily agree with it but it gave me a lot to think about.

One important point. When people say the ancients didn't experiment, that's historically wrong. The ancient Greeks did all sorts of experiments https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/cambridge-classical-journal/article/experiment-in-early-greek-philosophy-and-medicine/4029BC48DF68AF56542D51D830FCCA13

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1. What was the point of the whole wizard-cake analogy, if in the end, the scientific reality is irrelevant? Why not just say that with our pre-modern science human perception, we can't see that the world is older than the age given to us in the Torah, and that's all that matters? Dinosaur bones and the ability to age them is relatively recent science, as is the heliocentric model. Yet you seem concerned about dinosaur bones, and not concerned about the heliocentric model. Why?

2. How do you explain Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi conceding that the sages of the nations of the world are correct over the Jewish sages, in the matter of the sun's path at night (Pesachim 94a)? Does it not appear that scientific reality is relevant to him?

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So all I have to do is chalk up every bit of nonsense, pseudoscience and ignorance of reality to 'different perspective" and Voila!! It all fits in a "torah sense". It doesn't matter if astrology or homeopathy are nonsense and make verifiably untrue claims, they're 'true' in the astrology and homeopathy sense, and from a 'homeopathy works in other ways' perspective. Your approach is universal apologetics . It works on *everything*, which is to say it works on nothing at all and is completely worthless.

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"Despite these errors, we still adhere to their halachic rulings due to some vague concept of “אלפיים תורה”, suggesting that Hashem guided the decision-making process based on the wisdom of that era"

No, we follow them the same reason we follow the US constitution- we need a codified body of law, even if it was written hundreds or thousands of years ago. Unlike the constitution, the only way halacha can be potentially amended (or more accurately, be correctly reinterpreted) is with a Sanhedrin, which we lack. So as halacha and Torah following yidden we keep the rules, until a Sanhedrin comes.

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R Dovid,

I admire the effort put into this, and you've always been respectful to me, so I won't insult you. However, I do think this is very farfetched and reeks of cognitive dissonance.

It reminds me of when I used to read Chabad writings explaining how the Rebbe is still alive. The Rebbe is still alive in true reality, the Torah reality, it's just our weak eyes cannot observe it. If we used ruchniyes eyes we'd see the rebbe right there in 770. This feels the same.

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Your approach negates the fact that the scientific approach attempts to examine and objectively understand the reality of the universe. Your speculations are just that.The Rambam was in favor of reality check . He and his son and many other Rishonim and some Achronim reject many statements in the Talmud because they defied reality.

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And do you have a Torah source for that? You wrote " While a “rationalist” might mistakenly identify certain passages in Chazal as being primitive and going with the silly primitive ideas of the time, a more refined person realizes that the science of the time itself was not primitive; it was merely a completely different – and way more sophisticated – system of understanding.

Do you really believe that the חכמי אומות העולם who at one time believe in a geocentric model for example, were coming from sophistication? And do you have a Torah source for that?

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A few corrections.

1.The Gra in Yoreh Deah does not state that astrology is true, only Kishuf (see the sefer The great zemanim debate about this.) Even what the Gra does say, regarding magic, is hardly a settled debate. The Gra is arguing on a psak in Tur and Shulchan Aruch. Regarding the questions from pesukim, some of our great Mefarshei Hatora (such as RSRH and HaMalbim) understand the pahtus of the pesukim like the Rambam.

To pretend otherwise was a great mistake on the part of Reb Moshe Meiselman, Ruvy Shmeltzer and co. Their writings caused a great chillul Hashem (possibly greater than that caused by their opponent (וד"ל. Please don't repeat it.

2.The bar plugta on the rambam (mentioned by Avraham on May 27) regarding Treifos was the Rashba. Reb Moshe writes that the rashba was proven wrong by modern science. Unfortunately, Reb Moshe and others still tried hard to escape from the Rambams clear intention, i.e that Chazal may have been wrong, yet we still follow their psak. This is also clear from the pasuk the Rambam quotes (see rambam mamrim).

3.The entire piece regarding ancient science was both unintelligible and unsourced. There is no chiyuv to believe that ancient science was in any way more developed than modern science. Not only does all the physical evidence tell us otherwise, but the Torah itself bears witness many times to the constant progress of human civilization, from the early לוטשי נחושת וברזל until the רכב ברזל (יהושע יז,טז) etc. It is possible, as the Ramban suggests, that there was an element of wisdom lost when the Greeks lost trust in the previous superstitions, but that in no way suggests that Greek wisdom was not a vast improvement over the ancients. Sorry, but there is nothing inherently good about Avoda Zara, even if losing the יצה"ר for it entailed a loss of our grasp to the experience of Nevuah. The wisdom of the Greeks is part of the Brachah of יפיפיותו של יפת, which do not reject but rather retain and use in the service of ישכון באהלי שם. (A Torah blog is an excellent example of this.) This enables it to be a source of אור rather than the opposite ch"v (as when it is used as an escape route from the הקב"ה without having to resort to כישוף וע"ז.) (ולכאו' כן נראה מדברי הגר"א בביאורו המפורסם לסוף סדר עולם, שהשורש הוא ביטול היצרא דע"ז, ומשם נובע הזה לעומת זה של ביטול הנבואה, וכל זה נתחדש בתחלת מנין שטרות, דהיינו תחלת מלכות יון, וכמבואר שם בסדר עולם, והיינו שיד חכמת יון באמצע. ונראה שזה גם עומק הבנת דברי הפסיקתא (פל"ה) שלא זכו לנבואה ע"י בנין בית שני משום שנבנה ע"י כורש ואין השכינה שורה במעשה ידיו של יפת. והיינו שמה שלא זכו לבנות בית המקדש אלא ע"י כורש הוא גופא משום שלא היה להם הזכות של העמידה נגד היצה"ר דע"ז, שהרי ע"ז גופא הוצרכו ליפיפיותו של יפת לסייעם.)

In general, I am very disappointed from David's work. He claimed to have sophisticated answers to some basic questions, yet he has resorted to classic yeshivishe runarounds. "We don’t have to discuss these questions because they have no real meaning." So then don't. Wouldn't you be better off spending your time horeving on a Rashba? Why are you posting? Just to show us how unintelligible yeshivishe people can get? We have Ruvy Shmelzer's sefarim for that.

P.S. I recommend דוד to study the sefarim of Rav Zalman Hillel Fendel zatsal. They seem to be up his alley.

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Hi,

I would suggest that this theory can only be useful for someone who "isn't bothered" by the challenge of science vs. Torah to begin with. For such a person, the discussion is more of a fun mental exercise, but it's not so important if the answer is slightly to extremely far-fetched.

To someone who is genuinely troubled by these challenges - let's say he has a tendency to believe Torah is Divine but certain things give him pause - an answer like this IMHO will actually cause more damage than benefit. The reason I say that is because when people in the second category read something like this, which clearly comes from someone who is intelligent, they start to suspect that even intelligent people can twist logic to fit their own beliefs and it starts to call the mesorah into question.

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There is not one geocentric model. There are at least two.

The Ptolemaic model, which has issues, and is well-known.

There is also the Tycho Brahe model, which is a combined geo-helio-centric model, and was proposed after recording the motions of the planets for decades. The sun and moon orbit above and around the earth. The planets orbit the sun.

I suggest reading up on him, and how it came to be that man the credited with recording the data Kepler stole and used to formulate his own modified Copernican model, had his own ideas rendered irrelevant historically.

Also, that video depicting the Copernican model doesn't do justice to the absurdity of what it has evolved into. To whit, the earth and entire solar system move in orbit around the Milky Way (which historically was always called the Great Rift - perhaps related to the Mabul), and the Milky Way is, further, careening through the universe.

This what is really happening, according to science: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJuaPyQFrYk

Every human being on earth is subjected to four different vectors of acceleration simultaneously, while we can't feel or detect any of it. In spite of the constant motion in many directions, the planets and stars remain completely predictable and in their ordained paths. It's crazy.

That being said, my understanding is that our mesorah is compatible with a flat or globe earth (I lean flat, for many reasons). One thing it is incompatible with entirely is a moving earth that orbits the sun. No. Not happening. Period.

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ר' דוד

I think that you are indeed correct in your general מהלך

However, I think that it can't be grasped without the neccessary הקדמות, which almost everybody (including most שומרי תורה ומצוות) unfortunately lack.

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I was travelling on a train so I had the time to read this. I'm at a loss for words to describe my reaction. So, to sum up, it's indescribable!

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I've read this several times and I don't get it. How are you dealing with the bizarre medical cures of the talmud? Penned well after churban bayis sheini. And that match the cures historical evidence show was used by everyone back then.

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