Age of the earth is the one the Rishonim were busy with. Nishteneh Hateva is already in the Rishonim (i think even earlier). Its spiritual is already in the rambam. Scientists are kofrim anyway is also in the Rambam (Bshinui Lashon). Blah Blah Blah I think ive seen on one of slifkins blogs.
I just removed this from my next post because it was getting too long. So here is a possible answer, to keep you busy in the meantime, as to why Hashem created these two realities to have such drastically opposing spirits:
The Illusion of Reality
Our senses give us a very definite picture of reality. We sense that the objects around us have an inherent color, have weight and substance (mass) and that they are intrinsically either hard or soft.
Science has shown in a large number of ways that these very perceptions are just an illusion. Scientifically, the different colors are just how our brains process different wavelengths of photons interacting with our retinas. In fact, color is not actually an inherent property of an object, rather that when light hits an object, it absorbs certain wavelengths and reflects others. These reflected wavelengths are then detected by the cone cells in our eyes and sent to the brain for interpretation. The object isn’t “actually blue”; it merely contains certain properties which absorb the longer wavelengths and reflect the shorter ones. An apple appears red to us because it’s surface contains pigments called anthocyanins, which absorb blue and green light and reflect mostly red light. The reflected red light enters our eyes, and our brain interprets this as the color red. A blue toy, on the other hand, appears blue to us because it’s surface contains pigments that absorb light of longer wavelengths (like red and orange) and reflect mostly blue light. (The sky is blue for a different reason, along the same lines, because the Earth's atmosphere scatters short-wavelength blue light more than other colors, making it more visible to us.)
Another illusory aspect of reality is mass. We perceive objects as having weight and substance, but according to modern physics, matter is not quite as solid as it appears. In fact, most of the space in an object is actually empty, with the particles existing as tiny vibrations in a field of energy. The particles that make up matter are constantly in motion, and they are not as tightly bound together as we once thought. Interestingly, as per Einstein equation of E=mc2, if one were to take a bunch of massless particles which are pure energy (e.g. a light particle, a photon) and place them in a box and have them bounce around back and forth, this energy (if there were enough photons), would be perceived as actual mass. In fact, 99% of our own mass comes from the fact that within the atoms that we are made of, specifically within the protons and neutrons that make up the nucleus of the atom, there are these massless particles (called gluons) which are constantly exchanged between the constituents of the protons and neutrons (known as quarks), and this constant speed of light movement is what results in more that most of our mass. (For those familiar with the Higgs field understand that the other 1% is basically the same thing, though its details are a tad more complicated.)
There are so many more examples of this, and we’ll just use one more, that even our sense of space and time is illusory. Einstein's theory of relativity showed that time and space are not fixed and absolute, but rather depend on the observer's relative motion. Time can appear to pass more slowly for someone in motion than for someone at rest, and distances can appear to be shorter or longer depending on the observer's perspective. As an object speeds up closer and closer to the speed of light (close to 300 million meters per second), its time slows down. According to this theory, if an object were to travel faster than the speed of light, it would travel backwards in time! Famously, in a black hole, where the mass creates such a strong gravitational pull that the escape velocity (the minimum speed required for an object to escape the gravitational pull of another object, used when sending rockets beyond) is greater than the speed of light, the light being pulled back in has to be travelling faster than the speed of light, and you know what that means for time! If so, time itself is not only not fixed, but it can move backwards. Our entire understanding of cause and effect - the bedrock of what science is - which is wholly dependent on time’s forward motion, is but an illusion!
(This is already enough to highlight my point, but anyone who is familiar with the quantum world knows all the more just how true it is that reality as we know it is just an illusion of the quantum world where energy is seen for what it is.)
This is the first point we wish to make, that science has shown us that the universe as we know it really is but an illusion. These examples we provided are isolated, but the point holds true for all of modern science. According to Einstein’s E=mc2, everything we see is just different forms of energy. We hardly know what energy is; all science can say is that it is the ability of a system to do work. (Incidentally, the Vilna Gaon points out that חכמה is “כח מה”; it is a כח - a force, an energy; but מה, what is it really?) Despite that we don’t understand the illusive nature of energy, reality is nothing but different forms of this.
The entire scientific system is a perfect reflection of its true illusory nature...
I sincerely try to understand the reasoning of those that cling to the fundamentalist interpretation of the Torah. What you have written here is proof of the adage that nonsense is still nonsense regardless of who said it or how it's packaged.
Actual science, as I have been calling for consistently from the start. And simultaneously appreciating Ma'aseh B'reshis.
Allegedly, Crete, 500 miles away, in silhouette in front of the setting sun. From an elevation of 200 feet.
The clouds observably move. The features I am referring to don't. They are therefore "not clouds."
BE"H I hope to reproduce the feat again in July. Not sure if I can time the exact alignment (the offshore platform certainly helps!), but hopefully close. If I can, and the peaks and valleys match what was recorded yesterday, what say you?
Even if not, if such a spectacle is again present, on a cloudless day, I expect, well, not much. Many of you are pretty stubborn. But it will still prove the same point, a second time. This world is not what we are commonly taught.
Why would something so deep need to be taken so literally? There are sources for there being worlds before ours. What's wrong with just saying that we're only concerned about Adam and onwards? We obviously don't know what happened in Gan Eden as the rishonim argue about trying to figure it out. Science should not be a threat to Torah. They are describing a physical reality, not explaining its significance.
This Gosse's classic Omphalus hypothesis, which isnt too bad.
I still fail to see how this deals 1) with the evidence of human civilization pre creation. (Gosse himself had no problem positing God making such evidence as well, but IIRC you did). 2) The mabul, which is a far more serious problem.
I believe this series was meant to deal with all the contradictions between Torah and science, not just creation.
very nice idea, but a bit lengthy. mind if i try and summarize? (correct me if i'm misunderstanding)
being that Hashem did "poof" the world into existence less than 6k years ago (see last post, the challenge of slifkin), very much like what a wizard would do, this seems to contradict science's account. but in truth there is no stira because Hashem created things with a gashmi (what we call physical) side, and so by their very nature automatically come with a history because that history is what makes them what they are. but, not to get confused, this is not what they actually are - really they are Hashem's sheimois - but this gashmi is what they actually are physically i.e. scientifically, which is the place for science to exist. science discovered the scientific nature as science would, but that isn't even the real nature of the world, just the one where things exist as a scientific continuum, where they exist because they did a second ago, which happens to be a farce. (not to say it doesn't exist, because we have cars and airplanes and cellphones) but this existence isn't as real as the real one which is not scientific.
did i get this right?
if someone else could summarize better (perhaps in more sophisticated english) i'd appreciate
I sincerely try to understand the reasoning of those that cling to the fundamentalist interpretation of the Torah. What you have written here is proof of the adage that nonsense is still nonsense regardless of who said it or how it's packaged.
Well done, though a bit overlong. I've used something similar in discussing, for example, Makkas Dam, in answer to someone who claimed that it was impossible. Given that water and blood are both made of the same subatomic particles, then if you had an infinite number of scientists with an infinite amount of time and resources on their hands, then they could indeed take every molecule of the water in the Nile and reconfigure it into a molecule of blood, and in fact to claim that this is impossible is to deny basic physics. All we need, then, is to replace the infinite number of scientists with the One Infinite Hashem, and there we are.
"If a scientist found this cake a few minutes after it popped into existence, he would be able, through the classic rigorous process of experimentation and trial and error, to figure out the scientific reality of the cake. Most notably, he would be able to use the scientific method to duplicate this very same cake!"
Right. And we rightly dismiss the idea that cakes pop into existence via wizardry. I'm not sure how this whole analogy helps you.
"The answer depends on choice of perspective and on circumstances, which I not might even know. If that thing was designed to be a library and is characteristically used this way while I am gone, then it perhaps it really is a library. It is not a house, contrary of what I thought. Or perhaps it’s a garage. Or maybe it is an oddly constructed and misplaced paperweight belonging to a giant. There simply is no independent truth of the matter…”
Not sure what this is even supposed to mean. My house is my house by virtue of it being where I live. Exactly what is subjective about that? If someone lived in a an oddly shaped paperweight, that place would be both 1) his home and 2) an oddly shaped paperweight.
Nice, I personally prefer to be a little less intellectual about it. The world is however old we believe it is. What about x y z? Hashem could have aged the world.
I agree that the Torah reality is not compatible with the scientific reality, but since I'm Orthodox Jewish, I believe in the Torah one.
Very nice extended moshol to explain the concept
Age of the earth is the one the Rishonim were busy with. Nishteneh Hateva is already in the Rishonim (i think even earlier). Its spiritual is already in the rambam. Scientists are kofrim anyway is also in the Rambam (Bshinui Lashon). Blah Blah Blah I think ive seen on one of slifkins blogs.
I just removed this from my next post because it was getting too long. So here is a possible answer, to keep you busy in the meantime, as to why Hashem created these two realities to have such drastically opposing spirits:
The Illusion of Reality
Our senses give us a very definite picture of reality. We sense that the objects around us have an inherent color, have weight and substance (mass) and that they are intrinsically either hard or soft.
Science has shown in a large number of ways that these very perceptions are just an illusion. Scientifically, the different colors are just how our brains process different wavelengths of photons interacting with our retinas. In fact, color is not actually an inherent property of an object, rather that when light hits an object, it absorbs certain wavelengths and reflects others. These reflected wavelengths are then detected by the cone cells in our eyes and sent to the brain for interpretation. The object isn’t “actually blue”; it merely contains certain properties which absorb the longer wavelengths and reflect the shorter ones. An apple appears red to us because it’s surface contains pigments called anthocyanins, which absorb blue and green light and reflect mostly red light. The reflected red light enters our eyes, and our brain interprets this as the color red. A blue toy, on the other hand, appears blue to us because it’s surface contains pigments that absorb light of longer wavelengths (like red and orange) and reflect mostly blue light. (The sky is blue for a different reason, along the same lines, because the Earth's atmosphere scatters short-wavelength blue light more than other colors, making it more visible to us.)
Another illusory aspect of reality is mass. We perceive objects as having weight and substance, but according to modern physics, matter is not quite as solid as it appears. In fact, most of the space in an object is actually empty, with the particles existing as tiny vibrations in a field of energy. The particles that make up matter are constantly in motion, and they are not as tightly bound together as we once thought. Interestingly, as per Einstein equation of E=mc2, if one were to take a bunch of massless particles which are pure energy (e.g. a light particle, a photon) and place them in a box and have them bounce around back and forth, this energy (if there were enough photons), would be perceived as actual mass. In fact, 99% of our own mass comes from the fact that within the atoms that we are made of, specifically within the protons and neutrons that make up the nucleus of the atom, there are these massless particles (called gluons) which are constantly exchanged between the constituents of the protons and neutrons (known as quarks), and this constant speed of light movement is what results in more that most of our mass. (For those familiar with the Higgs field understand that the other 1% is basically the same thing, though its details are a tad more complicated.)
There are so many more examples of this, and we’ll just use one more, that even our sense of space and time is illusory. Einstein's theory of relativity showed that time and space are not fixed and absolute, but rather depend on the observer's relative motion. Time can appear to pass more slowly for someone in motion than for someone at rest, and distances can appear to be shorter or longer depending on the observer's perspective. As an object speeds up closer and closer to the speed of light (close to 300 million meters per second), its time slows down. According to this theory, if an object were to travel faster than the speed of light, it would travel backwards in time! Famously, in a black hole, where the mass creates such a strong gravitational pull that the escape velocity (the minimum speed required for an object to escape the gravitational pull of another object, used when sending rockets beyond) is greater than the speed of light, the light being pulled back in has to be travelling faster than the speed of light, and you know what that means for time! If so, time itself is not only not fixed, but it can move backwards. Our entire understanding of cause and effect - the bedrock of what science is - which is wholly dependent on time’s forward motion, is but an illusion!
(This is already enough to highlight my point, but anyone who is familiar with the quantum world knows all the more just how true it is that reality as we know it is just an illusion of the quantum world where energy is seen for what it is.)
This is the first point we wish to make, that science has shown us that the universe as we know it really is but an illusion. These examples we provided are isolated, but the point holds true for all of modern science. According to Einstein’s E=mc2, everything we see is just different forms of energy. We hardly know what energy is; all science can say is that it is the ability of a system to do work. (Incidentally, the Vilna Gaon points out that חכמה is “כח מה”; it is a כח - a force, an energy; but מה, what is it really?) Despite that we don’t understand the illusive nature of energy, reality is nothing but different forms of this.
The entire scientific system is a perfect reflection of its true illusory nature...
This is making me very, very hungry.
I sincerely try to understand the reasoning of those that cling to the fundamentalist interpretation of the Torah. What you have written here is proof of the adage that nonsense is still nonsense regardless of who said it or how it's packaged.
https://youtu.be/y1MBHT7X2f4
Actual science, as I have been calling for consistently from the start. And simultaneously appreciating Ma'aseh B'reshis.
Allegedly, Crete, 500 miles away, in silhouette in front of the setting sun. From an elevation of 200 feet.
The clouds observably move. The features I am referring to don't. They are therefore "not clouds."
BE"H I hope to reproduce the feat again in July. Not sure if I can time the exact alignment (the offshore platform certainly helps!), but hopefully close. If I can, and the peaks and valleys match what was recorded yesterday, what say you?
Even if not, if such a spectacle is again present, on a cloudless day, I expect, well, not much. Many of you are pretty stubborn. But it will still prove the same point, a second time. This world is not what we are commonly taught.
And if you dont realize which sector of Orthodox Judaism is losing a good portion of their youth, go out to Rutgers, Binghamton, Englewood or Efrat.
Why would something so deep need to be taken so literally? There are sources for there being worlds before ours. What's wrong with just saying that we're only concerned about Adam and onwards? We obviously don't know what happened in Gan Eden as the rishonim argue about trying to figure it out. Science should not be a threat to Torah. They are describing a physical reality, not explaining its significance.
This Gosse's classic Omphalus hypothesis, which isnt too bad.
I still fail to see how this deals 1) with the evidence of human civilization pre creation. (Gosse himself had no problem positing God making such evidence as well, but IIRC you did). 2) The mabul, which is a far more serious problem.
I believe this series was meant to deal with all the contradictions between Torah and science, not just creation.
(My theory is detailed on my blog.)
very nice idea, but a bit lengthy. mind if i try and summarize? (correct me if i'm misunderstanding)
being that Hashem did "poof" the world into existence less than 6k years ago (see last post, the challenge of slifkin), very much like what a wizard would do, this seems to contradict science's account. but in truth there is no stira because Hashem created things with a gashmi (what we call physical) side, and so by their very nature automatically come with a history because that history is what makes them what they are. but, not to get confused, this is not what they actually are - really they are Hashem's sheimois - but this gashmi is what they actually are physically i.e. scientifically, which is the place for science to exist. science discovered the scientific nature as science would, but that isn't even the real nature of the world, just the one where things exist as a scientific continuum, where they exist because they did a second ago, which happens to be a farce. (not to say it doesn't exist, because we have cars and airplanes and cellphones) but this existence isn't as real as the real one which is not scientific.
did i get this right?
if someone else could summarize better (perhaps in more sophisticated english) i'd appreciate
Can I clarify? All your lengthy essay is saying, to resolve the issue, is that the world was created to look millions of years old?
I sincerely try to understand the reasoning of those that cling to the fundamentalist interpretation of the Torah. What you have written here is proof of the adage that nonsense is still nonsense regardless of who said it or how it's packaged.
Well done, though a bit overlong. I've used something similar in discussing, for example, Makkas Dam, in answer to someone who claimed that it was impossible. Given that water and blood are both made of the same subatomic particles, then if you had an infinite number of scientists with an infinite amount of time and resources on their hands, then they could indeed take every molecule of the water in the Nile and reconfigure it into a molecule of blood, and in fact to claim that this is impossible is to deny basic physics. All we need, then, is to replace the infinite number of scientists with the One Infinite Hashem, and there we are.
"If a scientist found this cake a few minutes after it popped into existence, he would be able, through the classic rigorous process of experimentation and trial and error, to figure out the scientific reality of the cake. Most notably, he would be able to use the scientific method to duplicate this very same cake!"
Right. And we rightly dismiss the idea that cakes pop into existence via wizardry. I'm not sure how this whole analogy helps you.
"The answer depends on choice of perspective and on circumstances, which I not might even know. If that thing was designed to be a library and is characteristically used this way while I am gone, then it perhaps it really is a library. It is not a house, contrary of what I thought. Or perhaps it’s a garage. Or maybe it is an oddly constructed and misplaced paperweight belonging to a giant. There simply is no independent truth of the matter…”
Not sure what this is even supposed to mean. My house is my house by virtue of it being where I live. Exactly what is subjective about that? If someone lived in a an oddly shaped paperweight, that place would be both 1) his home and 2) an oddly shaped paperweight.
Nice, I personally prefer to be a little less intellectual about it. The world is however old we believe it is. What about x y z? Hashem could have aged the world.
I agree that the Torah reality is not compatible with the scientific reality, but since I'm Orthodox Jewish, I believe in the Torah one.
Interesting points. Definitely “food for thought”….
Thanks!