If we, as Charedim, can display ourselves to the outside world as an idealistic group, whose entire being is dedicated to living up to our ideals, the rational DL will understand that. They know what ideals are, and how living up to them is more important in the long run.
Our problems begin when, a) we have politicians who ostensibly represent us, who are also bottom feeders. When they made a fuss about the soda tax, I was looking for somewhere to hide my face. When they aren't idealists, we look like phonies. Even though they aren't our leaders, and they are usually dragged in from the lower echelons of society like politicians the world over, it is still embarrassing. And b) when we are caught not living the way we should. I appreciate imperfections, but whenever they leak out, they reflect badly on all of us. It is hard to use Simchas Torah 5784 as the catalyst for personal growth, more than anything else, but we need to look better to be able to survive this new onslaught on the Yeshivos.
We are a huge society, but each person in his corner must do better to look better. From controlling our eyes and middos in public to showing care and concern, by not cutting lines or pushing ahead to being more careful in the ideals that we share with the outside world. This isn't only about derech eretz, kiruv, kidush hashem, or PR. It is our personal interest that we don't increase enemies.
"Even though they aren't our leaders, and they are usually dragged in from the lower echelons of society like politicians the world over, it is still embarrassing."
Sorry, but this is nonsense. Gafni, Maklev, Pindrus etc are in no way 'bottom-feeders.'
Also, there's nothing wrong with charedi politicians trying to help cut costs for their constituents.
So when we walk into a Beis Hamedrash and see a yungerman in the corner with his eyes only for the Tosfos he is working on, he is the character whom we choose to run for Knesset? Or is it the guy who is always hanging around with the cook, the one with the keys on his belt, the one who is updated with the news before it happens?
Who represents us in any askanus? The person whose opinion counted when he was a bochur/ yungerman? Or the one we ran away from?
Btw, when Rav Shach made Degel, he couldn't find a single talmid to be the politicians. Ravitz was a Chevroner, who was an askan since his bochurishe days, and Gafni was a Gerrer. The reason was simple. In Ponovezh, they learned, there was no askanus. Reb Chatzkel worked hard to ensure that there be no yichus in Yeshiva besides for through learning.
"So when we walk into a Beis Hamedrash and see a yungerman in the corner with his eyes only for the Tosfos he is working on, he is the character whom we choose to run for Knesset?"
Did someone ask you to pick degel's representatives? I'm not sure why you think your pontificating is relevant to anything.
"Btw, when Rav Shach made Degel, he couldn't find a single talmid to be the politicians."
Whatever that means. How many talmidim did he have? It takes a certain kind of personality to be a chaver knesset. E.G. R Shlomo Lorincz.
Agav, Gafni was a rosh kollel in Ofakim for 13 years. And Ravitz was a uniquely talented fellow who got hounded by the crazies who took over the Yated. https://www.bhol.co.il/news/729892 They were/are osek be'tzorchei tzibbur be'emuna as far as I can tell. And they take a whole lot of garbage from people who aren't
"In Ponovezh, they learned, there was no askanus."
Did you know that the world's largest pizza was created in Italy and was so big that it required a crane to lift it? Or that the average person blinks about 15-20 times per minute? Speaking of eyes, the human eye can distinguish between approximately 10 million different colors.
Cats can hear sounds at a higher frequency than humans, which is why they're often startled by the sound of a vacuum cleaner or a doorbell. On a completely unrelated note, the tallest tree in the world is a redwood named Hyperion, standing at a staggering 379.1 feet tall.
The first-ever video game was created in 1958 and was called "Tennis for Two." It was played on an oscilloscope and featured a simple tennis game. Now, fast forward to today, and we have incredibly realistic video games that can transport us to different worlds. It's amazing how far technology has come.
Did someone ask you to pick degel's representatives? I'm not sure why you think your pontificating is relevant to anything.
Please explain the relevancy of this point.
Then on to this:
Agav, Gafni was a rosh kollel in Ofakim for 13 years. And Ravitz was a uniquely talented fellow who got hounded by the crazies who took over the Yated. https://www.bhol.co.il/news/729892 They were/are osek be'tzorchei tzibbur be'emuna as far as I can tell. And they take a whole lot of garbage from people who aren't
What is the point of any of this?
All I said was that the politicians are a certain skill set, a skill set that is not really the respected one in Beis Hamedrash.
When will we be explained the relevance of this?
And Rav Shach made a political speech in Yad Eliyahu stadium.
All inane nonsense, nothing to do with the issue at hand. And btw, this was not my main point.
The train from Beit Shemesh to TLV has a "minyan factory" production line. There are two minyans in adjoining cars, both packed, one that starts with Baruch She'amar, and one with Barchu. There is one Sefer Torah, and first one minyan, then the other, lains from it. It's more of a minyan factory than anything Test has in mind.
Very good points, but let me ask you, Are Chareidim learning enough idealism? By that I mean, when I speak to someone from the Mizrachi world, whether I agree with him or not, he really has what to back himself up with as far as Hashkafa. He is well versed in Tanach with some level of meforshim, and has been through a good number of sifrei machshava as well. Can we say the same about our world? To find someone who got past שני in the parsha with rashi is rare, let alone nach. With mussar it's not must past מסילת ישרים, and שערי תשובה in elul. (It's like they say every guy from מרכז הרב knows ויואל משה and the responces but the satmar guy doesn't even know his own sources.) Our system can produce the devoted and devout, but idealism is not very high up on the list. If our world is picking chavrei knesset, who aren't the one's staying in learning, what do you expect? קורח מכאן ומכאן. I hate to bring this up, but as much as we may disagree with them, Smotrich and Ben Gvir are very clear in their ideology and the idealism of the community they represent. I think we have what to strive for in that respect.
A dedication without full understanding can cause people to get lost and focus on the wrong things. When someone understands why he's doing something he can focus on the point better, and in life he'll look out for what fits that agenda. For example, if one thinks that pesach seder is about mesorah and therefore says the whole thing in Yiddish when his kids don't understand, he missed the mitzva of והגדת לבנך entirely.
If you agree it's safer the only cost not worth it was if it got more dangerous a different way, and if that's the case is the debate between Chareidim and non Chareidim.
You are asking, why do Charedi Yeshivos, for hundreds of years, focus solely on Gemara and Poskim, ignoring the rest of the shelf? Why can a bochur of twenty explain the sevaros of migu, but have no basic knowledge of the stories of Melachim and Shoftim?
There is an answer to that, but before understanding the answer, we need to appreciate that these decisions were not made by yungeleit rocking on their hammocks during bein hazmanim, with a pina colada at their elbows. Truly dedicated people, and supremely wise people, came to a decision that this is how a chinuch system for bochurim must work. Once we appreciate that, we can go and find out why they did so.
Standard chareidi response. Not an inkling of real understanding. Just 'rely on others'.
You know the real reason of course. Fear. Like all dictators, too much knowledge known by thr hoi poilli is dangerous. But they can't ban all torah of course, so restrict the curriculum to talmud and hopefully they will stay safe. Nach, the idea that Jewish people had a country, fought in wars, had kings, danger!!!!! In many yeshivohs learning halochoh is frowned upon. Same reason. Somebody who knows a bit if halochoh will need the rabbi a little less....and who knows where that can lead.....
No, it was because before these "restrictions" were put in place there was a 90% dropout rate in the frum world. You can complain about the system all you want how the rules may not apply but don't deny the original reason.
1) The 90% drop out continued well after the introduction of the yeshivah system.
2) You might he shocked to learn that only a fraction went to yeshiva anyway.
3) Doesn't say much for torah if a broad torah curriculum means people drop out. Do you actually think about what you write? The problem was the leaders. Just like today.
I fully agree with the fact that any distraction from Gemara and poskim is a risk for most young people, and the responsible ones making the decision (worded carefully, not the ones responsible for the decision) saw that this was the best for the future of klal yisrael. But there will always be side effects for even the best decision, and I believe the issue you raised and what I blamed it on is one of them.
A solution is still possible, but not a change in the Yeshivos. If adults were more curious, there would be more resources available for them. I know adult talmidei chachamim with more than a child's view of hashkafa and nach, although they are not available for debate because they are busy with more important things.
And your idea that politicians have more clarity was just ridiculous. They are politicians, they ride a wave. They will do what it takes to get where they want to get to. Nothing to do with ideals.
I was not advocating for a change in Yeshivos, but yes, there should be more curiosity and respect to those who are.
I was not claiming that those politicians are more ideological, but all politicians are catering to a certain base to stay in power. So if they are representing a group more ideological they will have to represent that, as opposed to gimmel where all it means is government supplements and getting out of the Army (I am not saying those things are not important, just that there can be more ideology in their cause that wouldn't embarrass you, as you said.)
It's not even most of mesilas yeshorim. After perek beis, it's basically only for melochim.
On a separate point, only the secular academic professors of Hebrew University know the various darchei machshovoh of chassidish world, and the difference between the sects. The semi illiterate chassidim (which is most of them) know little beyond the Rebbe's tzimmus and the latest model shtreimelech (with spitzim). Sad really.
On your other point, coming from a chasidish family and being that most of my cousins are chasidish, I can tell you the academic world missed out on quite a few basics in the Chasidish world which can only be understood from the culture (no, not just streimels). Additionally, anyone who has a basic understanding of chasidus and is still learning at 27 knows just as much. (bringing the tuni's into this is like comparing PHD's to frat boys.) Yippee doo, a few academics who spent 50 years on one topic know a little more.
Do elaborate on chassidish 'culture'. As practiced in 2024 (or if you prefer, 5784). And I don't believe more than a few 27 year old learners have a clue about chassidus and the difference in machshovoh between the various sects.
Every self respecting Chassid I ever spoke to can give the full rundown between pshchische (or however you spell it) and the chozeh, between kalisk and early chabad, how Rav Tzadok got his blend, the difference between each of the talmidim of the maggid, that breslov was only tolerated in Poland as opposed to Ukraine where R Nachman was from, and so on. What they have over academics will be that they'll come along with stories and quips from each Rebbe in Yiddish, sometimes that can never be translated unless you have the Yiddish culture in you.
I don’t find that credible. In my experience they can tell you which Rebbe is visiting which town, whose daughter married whose son, the latest in-fighting etc.
Maybe he'll tell us yet again he's leaving for good.
I don't even get his problem with "minyan factories." Is it that number of mispallelim daven at a late hour? I see that plenty in my DL yishuv too. One time I even heard one married man once say (in shul) that he comes to shul (which is invariably late) to socialize. Should I smear all DL because of the words of one misguided soul?
Standard yeshivish response akin to 'the goyim do it too'.
Whether that is true or in your DL yishuv or not is irrelevant. The point is chareidim claim to be holier than the rest, the only authentic form of torah judaism, the only authentic mesorah blah blah blah. That is nonsense.
Testes, my dear bloke, you are an idiot. No one claims that all Haredim are great people, nor honest and sincere Ovdei Hashem merely because they identify themselves socially with Haredi ideology. Our claim is that the Yeshivos are critical for the future of Klal Yisrael, and represent our best chance at transmitting the Torah and its values properly to the next generation. In a Yeshiva setting, the 'minyan factories' are indeed frowned upon, and students are urged to daven instead only at a Minyan Kavua.
" In a Yeshiva setting, the 'minyan factories' are indeed frowned upon, and students are urged to daven instead only at a Minyan Kavua."
I know very well what the party line is. And the 'urgings' in mussar schmoozen. I sat through a decade of them.
And the Rabbis that write in Hamishpocho and Ami also urge perishus and 'frown' on lots of things. And then you turn the page to the luxury sukkos programs and luxurious sheitels.
It's the downright schizophrenia in the chareidi world that is the problem.
Like most people who project, which is most people, you have a profound misunderstanding of human nature. You project your own faults and weaknesses onto those you hate.
Even as we left Egypt, there were stragglers and strugglers. And yet we still say that in general the nation was on the highest level it would ever be.
The charedi attitude towards the Zionist enterprise is indeed more authentic and genuine.
You know what I see in the Shabbos Ashkenazi minyan in my DL yishuv? More latecomers. More talking. More people who never show up at all because they daven at home. More girls, even barely prepubescent, who act like they belong with the men. More davening Speedy Gonzales style.
All of the above either exists to a much lower degree, or NOT AT ALL, in the Charedi minyans I used to frequent.
What is your beef? If Slifkin gets help, will you?
He is constantly harping on the claim that the charedim are a threat to the state because they don’t contribute materially. I would ask the following question. Who is a bigger threat to our continued prosperity in the land of Israel?
1. Charedim
2. Chilonim
In last weeks parsha a major theme was if you keep mitzvos you will prosper if you don’t you will be exiled.
You just read the pesukim and it’s crystal clear. You keep mitzvos you will prosper in the land. You don’t keep mitzvos you won’t prosper and you will be exiled.
So who is the bigger threat, the charedim who keep the mitzvos but don’t contribute materially or the chilonim who contribute materially but don’t keep the mitzvos?
I'm not getting involved in God's plans but it's entirely possible that Charedim who are lax in their duties will be more at fault than the tinok shenishba chiloni...
That may be true about sone of them but not the Ashkenazi elite. His commenters are talking about voting for Lapid to hurt the charedim. Lapid is a חוטא ומחטיא את הרבים.
Rav Aharon Lichtenstein Rosh Yeshiva of a major hesder yeshiva, once asked his students the following. Who do they relate more to? The chosid from Toldos Aharon in Meah Shearim or the Ashkenazi chiloni from Raman Gan who they do army service with? The majority answered the chiloni.
Rav Aharon explained how misguided that was. He said that on all the major issues we are in 100% agreement with the chosid. Belief in god, Torah revelation, prophesy, Halacha, Torah, shabbos kashrus, etc. We have a hashkafic dispute about how to deal with the state and modernity but that doesn’t change the fact that on the real important issues we agree. The chiloni on the other hand doesn’t share any of our core beliefs. He doesn’t believe in god, Torah, prophesy, Halacha, he doesn’t keep shabbos or kosher. We have nothing in common with him on the major issues. Yes we both serve in the army but that can’t paper over the fact that on every core belief we disagree.
Slifkin and his followers are making the same mistake as Rav Aharons students. They are substituting the טפל, army service, for the עיקר which is our core Torah beliefs. IMHO, the majority of serious dati leumi rabbanim agree with this.
A friend of mine asked Rabbi Chaim Solovietchik (ben R Aharon) who is an anglo/dati leumi (for lack of a better term) Rabbi in Beit shemesh whom he identifies more with, and he responded he is genuinely unsure.
Did Haskalah really lose the first time? They ripped entire pieces off us at the time, and the compromised world we live in is based on our answers to them.
It is challenging to appreciate Haskala for what it was, because in different countries it meant different things. But where 'we' come from (Russia, Lithuania, Poland), it meant worldly knowledge, the ability to contribute outside of the shtetl politics, a worldview that incorporated more than the narrow interests of the upper echelons of Torah society, and a plan for a better future. Of course, in practice this meant the bad attempt at assimilation that produced more anti-semitism, mass shmad, ignorance of Torah and world issues, and a loss of any morality. When we trace how their supposed 'idealism' led to a total moral degeneration (the stories about the 'Rabbonim Seminar' students were shocking to any civilized human being of the time, regular college students), we will see what will be, in all likelihood, the end product of the new haskala movement.
Haskala also led to many scientific discoveries, medicines etc. Its also spured the zionist movement which founded Israel and brought half of כלל ישראל into ארץ ישראל.
"When we trace how their supposed 'idealism' led to a total moral degeneration (the stories about the 'Rabbonim Seminar' students were shocking to any civilized human being of the time, regular college students)"
Uh, I asked ChatGPT and this is what it came up with. Don't ask me to verify if it's real, as ChatGPT is known to make stuff up:
Headline: Scandal Erupts as Berlin Rabbinical Seminary Shutters Amid Debauched Revelry
Date: October 20, 1925
Berlin, Germany—The prestigious Rabbinical Seminary of Berlin, a cornerstone of Jewish scholarship for over five decades, has been dramatically shut down after a scandalous night of excess that has left the Jewish community reeling in disbelief.
The events leading to this shocking closure began last Saturday night, when a group of seminarians, joined by several senior faculty members, reportedly indulged in what has been described as a "debauched spree" across the city. Eyewitnesses recount scenes more fitting of a raucous carnival than a gathering of future rabbis, with rampant public drunkenness, lewd behavior, and even disorderly conduct in front of Berlin’s most sacred Jewish sites.
The situation escalated when the inebriated group, some still clad in their rabbinical robes, were seen cavorting around the city, chanting and singing with abandon. Sources close to the seminary revealed that the night began with a traditional gathering meant to celebrate the conclusion of a rigorous period of study. However, what was intended as a modest celebration quickly spiraled into chaos as alcohol flowed freely and boundaries were shattered.
Astonished onlookers reported seeing respected scholars engaging in antics that included public displays of affection, boisterous singing of secular tunes, and even a disturbing incident involving the defacement of religious texts. As the night wore on, the group attracted the attention of local law enforcement, who were forced to intervene as the behavior of the rabbis-in-training grew increasingly erratic.
In an explosive development, several members of the seminary's faculty, including two revered rabbis, were implicated in the scandal. It is alleged that they not only failed to restrain the students but actively participated in the night's debauchery. These revelations have ignited a firestorm of outrage and disbelief within the community, where such behavior is seen as an unforgivable betrayal of the institution's sacred mission.
Rabbi Isaac Berenstein, the seminary's dean, issued a statement this morning in which he expressed his "profound shame and heartbreak" over the events. "This institution was founded on the pillars of Torah, ethics, and moral integrity. To see it brought so low by the actions of those who should know better is nothing short of a tragedy," he said, struggling to hold back tears.
The board of directors convened in an emergency session shortly after the scandal broke, and within hours, a unanimous decision was reached to close the seminary indefinitely. "We have no choice but to shutter the institution until a thorough investigation can be conducted and those responsible held accountable," announced the board’s spokesperson.
Repercussions have been swift. Several high-profile donors have already withdrawn their financial support, and prominent rabbis from around the world have condemned the behavior, calling it a "stain on the face of Jewish learning." Some are even calling for the permanent dissolution of the seminary, arguing that the sanctity of its mission has been irrevocably tarnished.
Students, many of whom were not involved in the scandal, are now left in limbo, with their studies abruptly halted and their futures uncertain. "I came here to learn and to serve my community, not to be caught up in this disgrace," lamented one student, who spoke on condition of anonymity.
As the full extent of the debacle continues to unfold, the once-revered Berlin Rabbinical Seminary stands as a stark reminder of how quickly the mighty can fall. What began as an innocent celebration has ended in catastrophe, leaving a once-proud institution in ruins and the Jewish community struggling to pick up the pieces.
The Berlin Seminary in 1925 had nothing to do with Haskala.
I mean the Haskala movement in Russia, where they had two seminaries - in Vilna and Zhitomir, in the mid 1800s. They were closed down eventually. Read Zichron Yaakov for more details.
"His appeals to patriotism, to sharing the burden of the nation that hosts one, are almost verbatim the same appeals that were made by prominent Maskilim during the heyday of the Haskalah."
Maybe some arguments are, but 'too many of us are dying,' 'our families are falling apart from strain of never-ending milluim,' 'we parents can't sleep at night out of concern for our kids fighting in a hellhole in Gaza' etc don't sound like maskillish arguments at all. They're a cri de coeur that they're suffering disproportionately. That doesn't inherently mean that those arguments are valid, any more than the hostage's families demands to pay any price to get their loved ones home is, but it's not some grand attempt to shmad anyone.
Emotional arguments are just that emotional arguments, many times they have little to no validity. In this case, no one denies the sacrifice and the suffering but that doesn’t that their approach to the state and modernity is correct.
Anything not yeshivish is maskilish. Don't you know. You have just identified a dodgy yeshivish equivalence. Like confusing 'hate' with 'furious' and 'disgusted'.
What's the relevance? Is it a tit for tat? I can't tell you to what extent chareidim have disdain for datim, but if they do, maybe it's because they lack exposure to the more Torah-oriented datim. Maybe it's because of the issue we discussed by email. Maybe it's something that can be changed with more and better dialogue.
No. It dosent justify either way. Even if the disdain was reserved for more lax datiim or MO types it still wouldnt be justified. But if theres disdain from the chareidi side you cant have a טענה on the datiim who just mirror their experiences. I can list a whole bunch of negative experiences ive had in chareidi communities. I'm not alone. This dosent mean i can hate on all chareidim, but it's hard to imagine that the chareidim are mere victims of שנאת עם הארץ like they often claim.
I agree that there is no place for disdain of Jewish people (unless they are מזידים). However, it is necessary and very important to disdain practices and ideologies that are against the Torah. Perhaps this is where we keep on running into the difference between chareidism and the Torah-oriented dati philosophy from Rav Kook, who saw holiness even in secular Zionism. Maybe this is where the biggest impasse is between chareidim and Torah-oriented datim.
I also agree that chareidim are not blameless here, and are maybe even more at fault. But it's not a contest of who is a greater aggressor or a greater victim.
It's a combination of factors. But such disdain against עבירות often leads to sweeping generalizations which imo are just not worth it (obviously my side also needs to watch out for this). Our "עולם התורה" and everyone else. Including those who dont wear hats, pronounce Hebrew differently, disagree over proper communal standards etc.
I have a friend who was a rabbi in a kiruv-oriented yeshiva, and even 20 years ago he was speaking knowingly to me of problems with DL hashkafa from observed experience, pertaining to the attrition rate of DL youth, particularly involving the army. I don't recall disdain being a feeling either of us expressed. I would say it was more sadness for misguided even if well-intentioned ideas that are even more demonstrably catastrophic today.
Most people I knew just went about their lives, not really paying attention to that world at all. I spent most of my adult life in a 100% Charedi city. To the extent there was disdain I remember being expressed (many years ago), it was for the Charedi situation in RBS, and the observed differences in outcomes (macro not micro) between children who grew up in our yishuv vs theirs. There were way more opportunities for their youth to stray.
I'm glad that youv'e had more positive experiences (i also have positive experiences but the negative ones sure do stick in my mind). Btw i think now college is a bigger danger than the army at least for hesder.
Unlike Natan and his bitter band of angry Anglo sycophants, I live in DL stronghold in the Israeli heartland, on a yishuv surrounded by farmland, a good deal closer to Gaza than them.
I have not detected the relentless bitter fury spewed by him and his audience and alleged to be endemic among the DL.
One time, at one kiddush, a particularly opinionated and decidedly not-Charedi Anglo resident, got started fuming about the Charedi stance regarding the war. This was just after the Knesset report on the disposition of the Charedi volunteers from just after 7/10. His wife, also as not-Charedi as they come, immediately silenced him by pointing out the simple observable fact that the IDF didn't want them.
That's it. One incident easily dispelled in many, many months. No simmering sense of anger or resentment. No visceral hatred.
Natan is a bottom dweller, who misleads himself that a few comments in support of his sinas chinam mean he represents a silent majority of DL. He even misrepresents these comments to his post as posts themselves. No, they are just comments. Talk about an ego.
I had mentioned in a comment to one of your earlier posts that I would be very honored to meet you in person the next time I come to Lakewood. And I asked how I would find you.
If your name is דוד, as seems not unreasonable (although hardly conclusive) to surmise, that narrows it down quite a bit. But I was hoping you could be yet more specific.
Mecharker B'chol Oz is not quite so involved in IM anymore. Neither am I, for that matter. We are slowly winding down for several reasons, among them because we feel have served our purpose and our main opponent has turned into a raving lunatic, see here https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/theo-dicey
I didn't say anything about IM or lunatics or whether you are winding up or down.
I only said that I'd love to meet either or both of you very fine gentlemen in person, and speak with you face to face.
It's the Torah way you know!
ודבר ה' אל משה פנים אל פנים"
".כאשר ידבר איש אל רעהו
But if you feel that all that old-school silliness has now been obsoleted by the wondrous new realities of electronic communication, where you can hide behind cute on-line pseudonyms, and never have to put your name, face, or reputation behind your opinions, then I perfectly understand.
The wondrous new realities of electronic communication pose new challenges, but they also create new opportunities. There are reasons particular to our community why we are hesitant about revealing our identities online, more than modern/secularist Jews are. I only revealed my identity to MOB after several months of collaboration, when I felt I trusted him. But it's possible that MOB is less sensitive to privacy than I am, you can ask him directly at mecharkerbcholoz@gmail.com, he might have just not seen your comment. But if IM doesn't concern you and it's just fine gentlemen in Lakewood you would like to meet, you can walk into any shul/yeshiva/grocery store and meet them. There is nothing special about MOB or myself.
"There are reasons particular to our community why we are hesitant about revealing our identities online"
I thought you were doing God's holy work in exposing heresy and all that goes with it. What possible 'particular' reasons could there be amongst your fellow charedim al d'var Hashem for hiding your identities?
I know it's yeshivish to answer a question with another question and believe you have answered it (similar to asking somebody a question who responds "Yes, there is a Shach about that", in the yeshiva world is considered an answer (and the responder is mamesh a talmid chochom) but in real life that simply is not the case. In the real world 90% of people with the hallowed reputation 'knows how to learn" can do nothing of the sort. They are just skilled, like you, in answering questions with questions, dodgy mesholim, instant answers, quoting sources impressively from memory that say nothing of the sort and generally bamboozling their chavrusoh or questioner.
So you think they are both from me, and only I have the gift of writing in two different styles, but a soldier is not able to? And why do you say "fighting"? You think fighters are incapable of writing anything?
I know many fighting DL (actually usually חרד"ל) soldiers who say similar things, and in hebrew there are many articles who make the exact same points.
What points exactly? One of the techniques here is long wordy articles, 99% of which is not about the topic at hand. So for example the 'other blogger' refers to 'furious' and 'disgusted' which is not the same as this blog"s use of the word 'hate'.
I have seen numerous poskim from the chardali world who write clearly about the clear torah obligation to serve (or ar least assist the national effort). It's hard to believe they, or their talmidim, would simultaneously think highly of those that follow the chareidi approach and shirk national duty.
Testes, most people with Yiras Shamayim recognize that we are individuals, some better and some worse, and their primary concern is how they as individuals are relating to G-d and fulfilling their own responsibilities. Only people like you - with a failed personal life - can put their focus instead on group politics and identity, as if standing with the right side will somehow justify your own personal failures.
They understand that serving is one Mitzva out of 613, it’s not one of the עיקרי האמונה, and they respect the way the charedim learn Torah and keep the other mitzvos.
Well, fine but that's not what this discussion is about.
In any event chareidim (like the DL) are very selective in the way they keep 'other mitzvos". Is a carefully selected bunch of other mitzvos. Mitzvos like mateh akum, teaching a child skills for parnossoh are generally ignored. Zemanei tefillah are ignored. Da'as torah is ignored when convenient (look at the bloggers here ignoring anti internet diktakts). Their general middos are no better than any other group. Their obsession with money is more than any other group). I could go on but can't be bothered.
Some. And some, like hilchos mateh akum are completely ignored.
But more fundamentally, they simply find kullos to justify what they need to do. For example mechiras chometz for domestic the way it is done today, visiting the rov etc is completely frowned upon by all major poskim. Ditto hetter iskah for private house purchases. And the big one, nursing homes and other businesses operating with chometz and/or shabbos yom tov based on flimsy bits of paper from a rov and dodgy 'sales' to a non Jew. If a DL rabbi came up with that, all hell would break out.
There isn't a single thing chareidim can't find a hetter for when they want to.
If we, as Charedim, can display ourselves to the outside world as an idealistic group, whose entire being is dedicated to living up to our ideals, the rational DL will understand that. They know what ideals are, and how living up to them is more important in the long run.
Our problems begin when, a) we have politicians who ostensibly represent us, who are also bottom feeders. When they made a fuss about the soda tax, I was looking for somewhere to hide my face. When they aren't idealists, we look like phonies. Even though they aren't our leaders, and they are usually dragged in from the lower echelons of society like politicians the world over, it is still embarrassing. And b) when we are caught not living the way we should. I appreciate imperfections, but whenever they leak out, they reflect badly on all of us. It is hard to use Simchas Torah 5784 as the catalyst for personal growth, more than anything else, but we need to look better to be able to survive this new onslaught on the Yeshivos.
We are a huge society, but each person in his corner must do better to look better. From controlling our eyes and middos in public to showing care and concern, by not cutting lines or pushing ahead to being more careful in the ideals that we share with the outside world. This isn't only about derech eretz, kiruv, kidush hashem, or PR. It is our personal interest that we don't increase enemies.
"Even though they aren't our leaders, and they are usually dragged in from the lower echelons of society like politicians the world over, it is still embarrassing."
Sorry, but this is nonsense. Gafni, Maklev, Pindrus etc are in no way 'bottom-feeders.'
Also, there's nothing wrong with charedi politicians trying to help cut costs for their constituents.
Helping to cut costs is one thing. Making it out to be a 'gezeira against charedim' that required a fight is something else completely.
It seems you have forgotten that shande. I wish I could.
"Helping to cut costs is one thing. Making it out to be a 'gezeira against charedim' that required a fight is something else completely."
Really not sure why you're so hung up over this. (How many times are you going to 'reuse' this episode?) They didn't claim it was equivalent to giyus banos. And there was a sense that Lieberman pushed it through out of spite towards charedim. Even the srugim understood that. https://www.srugim.co.il/612686-%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%91-%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%A2%D7%92-%D7%9C%D7%97%D7%A8%D7%93%D7%99%D7%9D%D7%9B%D7%9A-%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%9E%D7%9F-%D7%A6%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9F-%D7%90%D7%AA-%D7%9B%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%A1%D7%AA
So when we walk into a Beis Hamedrash and see a yungerman in the corner with his eyes only for the Tosfos he is working on, he is the character whom we choose to run for Knesset? Or is it the guy who is always hanging around with the cook, the one with the keys on his belt, the one who is updated with the news before it happens?
Who represents us in any askanus? The person whose opinion counted when he was a bochur/ yungerman? Or the one we ran away from?
Btw, when Rav Shach made Degel, he couldn't find a single talmid to be the politicians. Ravitz was a Chevroner, who was an askan since his bochurishe days, and Gafni was a Gerrer. The reason was simple. In Ponovezh, they learned, there was no askanus. Reb Chatzkel worked hard to ensure that there be no yichus in Yeshiva besides for through learning.
"So when we walk into a Beis Hamedrash and see a yungerman in the corner with his eyes only for the Tosfos he is working on, he is the character whom we choose to run for Knesset?"
Did someone ask you to pick degel's representatives? I'm not sure why you think your pontificating is relevant to anything.
"Btw, when Rav Shach made Degel, he couldn't find a single talmid to be the politicians."
Whatever that means. How many talmidim did he have? It takes a certain kind of personality to be a chaver knesset. E.G. R Shlomo Lorincz.
Agav, Gafni was a rosh kollel in Ofakim for 13 years. And Ravitz was a uniquely talented fellow who got hounded by the crazies who took over the Yated. https://www.bhol.co.il/news/729892 They were/are osek be'tzorchei tzibbur be'emuna as far as I can tell. And they take a whole lot of garbage from people who aren't
"In Ponovezh, they learned, there was no askanus."
Uri maklev learned in Ponovezh. And Rav Shach made a political speech in Yad Eliyahu stadium. https://archive.jdn.co.il/video/765239/
Did you know that the world's largest pizza was created in Italy and was so big that it required a crane to lift it? Or that the average person blinks about 15-20 times per minute? Speaking of eyes, the human eye can distinguish between approximately 10 million different colors.
Cats can hear sounds at a higher frequency than humans, which is why they're often startled by the sound of a vacuum cleaner or a doorbell. On a completely unrelated note, the tallest tree in the world is a redwood named Hyperion, standing at a staggering 379.1 feet tall.
The first-ever video game was created in 1958 and was called "Tennis for Two." It was played on an oscilloscope and featured a simple tennis game. Now, fast forward to today, and we have incredibly realistic video games that can transport us to different worlds. It's amazing how far technology has come.
Eh, I don't think Shaul was engaging in irrelevancies. Care to respond to his points?
Did someone ask you to pick degel's representatives? I'm not sure why you think your pontificating is relevant to anything.
Please explain the relevancy of this point.
Then on to this:
Agav, Gafni was a rosh kollel in Ofakim for 13 years. And Ravitz was a uniquely talented fellow who got hounded by the crazies who took over the Yated. https://www.bhol.co.il/news/729892 They were/are osek be'tzorchei tzibbur be'emuna as far as I can tell. And they take a whole lot of garbage from people who aren't
What is the point of any of this?
All I said was that the politicians are a certain skill set, a skill set that is not really the respected one in Beis Hamedrash.
When will we be explained the relevance of this?
And Rav Shach made a political speech in Yad Eliyahu stadium.
All inane nonsense, nothing to do with the issue at hand. And btw, this was not my main point.
Coming from you that's a bit rich.
"world's largest pizza was created in Italy and was so big that it required a crane to lift it...
Cats can hear sounds at a higher frequency than humans...
The first-ever video game was created in 1958 and was called "Tennis for Two."
I see you took a field trip to one of Test's minyan factories.
Ouch. Et tu, Shaul?
The train from Beit Shemesh to TLV has a "minyan factory" production line. There are two minyans in adjoining cars, both packed, one that starts with Baruch She'amar, and one with Barchu. There is one Sefer Torah, and first one minyan, then the other, lains from it. It's more of a minyan factory than anything Test has in mind.
Very good points, but let me ask you, Are Chareidim learning enough idealism? By that I mean, when I speak to someone from the Mizrachi world, whether I agree with him or not, he really has what to back himself up with as far as Hashkafa. He is well versed in Tanach with some level of meforshim, and has been through a good number of sifrei machshava as well. Can we say the same about our world? To find someone who got past שני in the parsha with rashi is rare, let alone nach. With mussar it's not must past מסילת ישרים, and שערי תשובה in elul. (It's like they say every guy from מרכז הרב knows ויואל משה and the responces but the satmar guy doesn't even know his own sources.) Our system can produce the devoted and devout, but idealism is not very high up on the list. If our world is picking chavrei knesset, who aren't the one's staying in learning, what do you expect? קורח מכאן ומכאן. I hate to bring this up, but as much as we may disagree with them, Smotrich and Ben Gvir are very clear in their ideology and the idealism of the community they represent. I think we have what to strive for in that respect.
You also seem to be misusing the word 'idealism'.
Afaik, it means 'dedication to a cause above a person's personal advancement'. It doesn't mean 'hashkafic understanding'.
A dedication without full understanding can cause people to get lost and focus on the wrong things. When someone understands why he's doing something he can focus on the point better, and in life he'll look out for what fits that agenda. For example, if one thinks that pesach seder is about mesorah and therefore says the whole thing in Yiddish when his kids don't understand, he missed the mitzva of והגדת לבנך entirely.
So you claim that understanding assists idealism.
Fine
But that does not make them one and the same.
You are right, I confused ideals and ideology, missing the point that it's the "ology" that gives it the שכלי aspect.
Of course. Chareidim perpetuate their system by route copying and no real havonoh and discouraging anything outside. It is safer but at what cost?
If you agree it's safer the only cost not worth it was if it got more dangerous a different way, and if that's the case is the debate between Chareidim and non Chareidim.
Good question!
You are asking, why do Charedi Yeshivos, for hundreds of years, focus solely on Gemara and Poskim, ignoring the rest of the shelf? Why can a bochur of twenty explain the sevaros of migu, but have no basic knowledge of the stories of Melachim and Shoftim?
There is an answer to that, but before understanding the answer, we need to appreciate that these decisions were not made by yungeleit rocking on their hammocks during bein hazmanim, with a pina colada at their elbows. Truly dedicated people, and supremely wise people, came to a decision that this is how a chinuch system for bochurim must work. Once we appreciate that, we can go and find out why they did so.
ראה שו"ת תורה לשמה סימן רנד
ערוך השלחן יורה דעה סימן רמו סעיף יד, שורה אחרונה שם (חוץ ממה שרוב ראשונים חלקו על רבנו תם, ראה רש"י, רמב"ם, ריטב"א, ר"ן)
Yeah right. Citation needed.
Standard chareidi response. Not an inkling of real understanding. Just 'rely on others'.
You know the real reason of course. Fear. Like all dictators, too much knowledge known by thr hoi poilli is dangerous. But they can't ban all torah of course, so restrict the curriculum to talmud and hopefully they will stay safe. Nach, the idea that Jewish people had a country, fought in wars, had kings, danger!!!!! In many yeshivohs learning halochoh is frowned upon. Same reason. Somebody who knows a bit if halochoh will need the rabbi a little less....and who knows where that can lead.....
No, it was because before these "restrictions" were put in place there was a 90% dropout rate in the frum world. You can complain about the system all you want how the rules may not apply but don't deny the original reason.
1) The 90% drop out continued well after the introduction of the yeshivah system.
2) You might he shocked to learn that only a fraction went to yeshiva anyway.
3) Doesn't say much for torah if a broad torah curriculum means people drop out. Do you actually think about what you write? The problem was the leaders. Just like today.
1) Well yea the Yeshiva system saved the last 10%
2) I'm not shocked I know that quite well
3) Then why are you pro the modox system
I fully agree with the fact that any distraction from Gemara and poskim is a risk for most young people, and the responsible ones making the decision (worded carefully, not the ones responsible for the decision) saw that this was the best for the future of klal yisrael. But there will always be side effects for even the best decision, and I believe the issue you raised and what I blamed it on is one of them.
A solution is still possible, but not a change in the Yeshivos. If adults were more curious, there would be more resources available for them. I know adult talmidei chachamim with more than a child's view of hashkafa and nach, although they are not available for debate because they are busy with more important things.
And your idea that politicians have more clarity was just ridiculous. They are politicians, they ride a wave. They will do what it takes to get where they want to get to. Nothing to do with ideals.
I was not advocating for a change in Yeshivos, but yes, there should be more curiosity and respect to those who are.
I was not claiming that those politicians are more ideological, but all politicians are catering to a certain base to stay in power. So if they are representing a group more ideological they will have to represent that, as opposed to gimmel where all it means is government supplements and getting out of the Army (I am not saying those things are not important, just that there can be more ideology in their cause that wouldn't embarrass you, as you said.)
It's not even most of mesilas yeshorim. After perek beis, it's basically only for melochim.
On a separate point, only the secular academic professors of Hebrew University know the various darchei machshovoh of chassidish world, and the difference between the sects. The semi illiterate chassidim (which is most of them) know little beyond the Rebbe's tzimmus and the latest model shtreimelech (with spitzim). Sad really.
PS Chumash rashi is for those that can't learn.
I knew you'd jump on the wagon here!
On your other point, coming from a chasidish family and being that most of my cousins are chasidish, I can tell you the academic world missed out on quite a few basics in the Chasidish world which can only be understood from the culture (no, not just streimels). Additionally, anyone who has a basic understanding of chasidus and is still learning at 27 knows just as much. (bringing the tuni's into this is like comparing PHD's to frat boys.) Yippee doo, a few academics who spent 50 years on one topic know a little more.
Do elaborate on chassidish 'culture'. As practiced in 2024 (or if you prefer, 5784). And I don't believe more than a few 27 year old learners have a clue about chassidus and the difference in machshovoh between the various sects.
Every self respecting Chassid I ever spoke to can give the full rundown between pshchische (or however you spell it) and the chozeh, between kalisk and early chabad, how Rav Tzadok got his blend, the difference between each of the talmidim of the maggid, that breslov was only tolerated in Poland as opposed to Ukraine where R Nachman was from, and so on. What they have over academics will be that they'll come along with stories and quips from each Rebbe in Yiddish, sometimes that can never be translated unless you have the Yiddish culture in you.
I don’t find that credible. In my experience they can tell you which Rebbe is visiting which town, whose daughter married whose son, the latest in-fighting etc.
Like like like
"we look like phonies"
Indeed. You only have to look at the minyan factories to notice that.
He's back. With his minyan factories.
I was getting worried.
Maybe he'll tell us yet again he's leaving for good.
I don't even get his problem with "minyan factories." Is it that number of mispallelim daven at a late hour? I see that plenty in my DL yishuv too. One time I even heard one married man once say (in shul) that he comes to shul (which is invariably late) to socialize. Should I smear all DL because of the words of one misguided soul?
"I see plenty of that in my DL yisuv to".
Standard yeshivish response akin to 'the goyim do it too'.
Whether that is true or in your DL yishuv or not is irrelevant. The point is chareidim claim to be holier than the rest, the only authentic form of torah judaism, the only authentic mesorah blah blah blah. That is nonsense.
Testes, my dear bloke, you are an idiot. No one claims that all Haredim are great people, nor honest and sincere Ovdei Hashem merely because they identify themselves socially with Haredi ideology. Our claim is that the Yeshivos are critical for the future of Klal Yisrael, and represent our best chance at transmitting the Torah and its values properly to the next generation. In a Yeshiva setting, the 'minyan factories' are indeed frowned upon, and students are urged to daven instead only at a Minyan Kavua.
" In a Yeshiva setting, the 'minyan factories' are indeed frowned upon, and students are urged to daven instead only at a Minyan Kavua."
I know very well what the party line is. And the 'urgings' in mussar schmoozen. I sat through a decade of them.
And the Rabbis that write in Hamishpocho and Ami also urge perishus and 'frown' on lots of things. And then you turn the page to the luxury sukkos programs and luxurious sheitels.
It's the downright schizophrenia in the chareidi world that is the problem.
Like most people who project, which is most people, you have a profound misunderstanding of human nature. You project your own faults and weaknesses onto those you hate.
Even as we left Egypt, there were stragglers and strugglers. And yet we still say that in general the nation was on the highest level it would ever be.
The charedi attitude towards the Zionist enterprise is indeed more authentic and genuine.
You know what I see in the Shabbos Ashkenazi minyan in my DL yishuv? More latecomers. More talking. More people who never show up at all because they daven at home. More girls, even barely prepubescent, who act like they belong with the men. More davening Speedy Gonzales style.
All of the above either exists to a much lower degree, or NOT AT ALL, in the Charedi minyans I used to frequent.
What is your beef? If Slifkin gets help, will you?
No. Minyan factories are a feature not a bug. Mateh akum is a feature not a bug. It's not a few 'stragglers'. It's part of the system.
He is constantly harping on the claim that the charedim are a threat to the state because they don’t contribute materially. I would ask the following question. Who is a bigger threat to our continued prosperity in the land of Israel?
1. Charedim
2. Chilonim
In last weeks parsha a major theme was if you keep mitzvos you will prosper if you don’t you will be exiled.
1. כׇּל־הַמִּצְוָ֗ה אֲשֶׁ֨ר אָנֹכִ֧י מְצַוְּךָ֛ הַיּ֖וֹם תִּשְׁמְר֣וּן לַעֲשׂ֑וֹת לְמַ֨עַן תִּֽחְי֜וּן וּרְבִיתֶ֗ם וּבָאתֶם֙ וִֽירִשְׁתֶּ֣ם אֶת־הָאָ֔רֶץ אֲשֶׁר־נִשְׁבַּ֥ע יְהֹוָ֖ה לַאֲבֹתֵיכֶֽם׃
2. הִשָּׁ֣מֶר לְךָ֔ פֶּן־תִּשְׁכַּ֖ח אֶת־יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֑יךָ לְבִלְתִּ֨י שְׁמֹ֤ר מִצְוֺתָיו֙ וּמִשְׁפָּטָ֣יו וְחֻקֹּתָ֔יו אֲשֶׁ֛ר אָנֹכִ֥י מְצַוְּךָ֖ הַיּֽוֹם׃
פֶּן־תֹּאכַ֖ל וְשָׂבָ֑עְתָּ וּבָתִּ֥ים טֹבִ֛ים תִּבְנֶ֖ה וְיָשָֽׁבְתָּ׃
וְהָיָ֗ה אִם־שָׁכֹ֤חַ תִּשְׁכַּח֙ אֶת־יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֔יךָ וְהָֽלַכְתָּ֗ אַחֲרֵי֙ אֱלֹהִ֣ים אֲחֵרִ֔ים וַעֲבַדְתָּ֖ם וְהִשְׁתַּחֲוִ֣יתָ לָהֶ֑ם הַעִדֹ֤תִי בָכֶם֙ הַיּ֔וֹם כִּ֥י אָבֹ֖ד תֹּאבֵדֽוּן׃
כַּגּוֹיִ֗ם אֲשֶׁ֤ר יְהֹוָה֙ מַאֲבִ֣יד מִפְּנֵיכֶ֔ם כֵּ֖ן תֹּאבֵד֑וּן עֵ֚קֶב לֹ֣א תִשְׁמְע֔וּן בְּק֖וֹל יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵיכֶֽם
3. וּשְׁמַרְתֶּם֙ אֶת־כׇּל־הַמִּצְוָ֔ה אֲשֶׁ֛ר אָנֹכִ֥י מְצַוְּךָ֖ הַיּ֑וֹם לְמַ֣עַן תֶּחֶזְק֗וּ וּבָאתֶם֙ וִֽירִשְׁתֶּ֣ם אֶת־הָאָ֔רֶץ אֲשֶׁ֥ר אַתֶּ֛ם עֹבְרִ֥ים שָׁ֖מָּה לְרִשְׁתָּֽהּ׃
וּלְמַ֨עַן תַּאֲרִ֤יכוּ יָמִים֙ עַל־הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה אֲשֶׁר֩ נִשְׁבַּ֨ע יְהֹוָ֧ה לַאֲבֹתֵיכֶ֛ם לָתֵ֥ת לָהֶ֖ם וּלְזַרְעָ֑ם אֶ֛רֶץ זָבַ֥ת חָלָ֖ב וּדְבָֽשׁ׃ {ס}
4. הִשָּֽׁמְר֣וּ לָכֶ֔ם פֶּ֥ן יִפְתֶּ֖ה לְבַבְכֶ֑ם וְסַרְתֶּ֗ם וַעֲבַדְתֶּם֙ אֱלֹהִ֣ים אֲחֵרִ֔ים וְהִשְׁתַּחֲוִיתֶ֖ם לָהֶֽם׃
וְחָרָ֨ה אַף־יְהֹוָ֜ה בָּכֶ֗ם וְעָצַ֤ר אֶת־הַשָּׁמַ֙יִם֙ וְלֹֽא־יִהְיֶ֣ה מָטָ֔ר וְהָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה לֹ֥א תִתֵּ֖ן אֶת־יְבוּלָ֑הּ וַאֲבַדְתֶּ֣ם מְהֵרָ֗ה מֵעַל֙ הָאָ֣רֶץ הַטֹּבָ֔ה אֲשֶׁ֥ר יְהֹוָ֖ה נֹתֵ֥ן לָכֶֽם׃
You just read the pesukim and it’s crystal clear. You keep mitzvos you will prosper in the land. You don’t keep mitzvos you won’t prosper and you will be exiled.
So who is the bigger threat, the charedim who keep the mitzvos but don’t contribute materially or the chilonim who contribute materially but don’t keep the mitzvos?
The answer is quite clear from the Torah.
I'm not getting involved in God's plans but it's entirely possible that Charedim who are lax in their duties will be more at fault than the tinok shenishba chiloni...
That may be true about sone of them but not the Ashkenazi elite. His commenters are talking about voting for Lapid to hurt the charedim. Lapid is a חוטא ומחטיא את הרבים.
Rav Aharon Lichtenstein Rosh Yeshiva of a major hesder yeshiva, once asked his students the following. Who do they relate more to? The chosid from Toldos Aharon in Meah Shearim or the Ashkenazi chiloni from Raman Gan who they do army service with? The majority answered the chiloni.
Rav Aharon explained how misguided that was. He said that on all the major issues we are in 100% agreement with the chosid. Belief in god, Torah revelation, prophesy, Halacha, Torah, shabbos kashrus, etc. We have a hashkafic dispute about how to deal with the state and modernity but that doesn’t change the fact that on the real important issues we agree. The chiloni on the other hand doesn’t share any of our core beliefs. He doesn’t believe in god, Torah, prophesy, Halacha, he doesn’t keep shabbos or kosher. We have nothing in common with him on the major issues. Yes we both serve in the army but that can’t paper over the fact that on every core belief we disagree.
Slifkin and his followers are making the same mistake as Rav Aharons students. They are substituting the טפל, army service, for the עיקר which is our core Torah beliefs. IMHO, the majority of serious dati leumi rabbanim agree with this.
A friend of mine asked Rabbi Chaim Solovietchik (ben R Aharon) who is an anglo/dati leumi (for lack of a better term) Rabbi in Beit shemesh whom he identifies more with, and he responded he is genuinely unsure.
There is no greater vessel for blessing than peace.
Thanks for posting and trying to bring peace. Hashem should bless your efforts.
🙏🙏🙏
Another point:
Did Haskalah really lose the first time? They ripped entire pieces off us at the time, and the compromised world we live in is based on our answers to them.
It is challenging to appreciate Haskala for what it was, because in different countries it meant different things. But where 'we' come from (Russia, Lithuania, Poland), it meant worldly knowledge, the ability to contribute outside of the shtetl politics, a worldview that incorporated more than the narrow interests of the upper echelons of Torah society, and a plan for a better future. Of course, in practice this meant the bad attempt at assimilation that produced more anti-semitism, mass shmad, ignorance of Torah and world issues, and a loss of any morality. When we trace how their supposed 'idealism' led to a total moral degeneration (the stories about the 'Rabbonim Seminar' students were shocking to any civilized human being of the time, regular college students), we will see what will be, in all likelihood, the end product of the new haskala movement.
Haskala also led to many scientific discoveries, medicines etc. Its also spured the zionist movement which founded Israel and brought half of כלל ישראל into ארץ ישראל.
The relationship between השכלה and ציונות was quite complex.
http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/vl/bendov/bendov22.pdf
"When we trace how their supposed 'idealism' led to a total moral degeneration (the stories about the 'Rabbonim Seminar' students were shocking to any civilized human being of the time, regular college students)"
What stories are you referring to?
The government closed them down for public drunkenness and its effects. (Not on the liver)
Can you be more specific? I tried googling https://www.google.com/search?q=rabbonim+seminar+closed+down+public+drunkenness&safe=strict&sca_esv=de2111f507d80062&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C1RXQR_enUS996US996&sxsrf=ADLYWIJaK25GHHMsITlAcv5qdgjuMWoBfA%3A1724629988346&ei=5MPLZuvmFJqQwbkP9ZyywA8&ved=0ahUKEwjr6Muuq5GIAxUaSDABHXWODPgQ4dUDCA8&uact=5&oq=rabbonim+seminar+closed+down+public+drunkenness&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiL3JhYmJvbmltIHNlbWluYXIgY2xvc2VkIGRvd24gcHVibGljIGRydW5rZW5uZXNzMgUQIRigATIFECEYoAEyBRAhGKABMgUQIRigAUimkQFQrwVYlosBcAF4AZABAJgBkwGgAf8IqgEDMC45uAEDyAEA-AEB-AECmAIHoAKSBsICChAAGLADGNYEGEfCAgQQIxgnmAMAiAYBkAYIkgcDMS42oAeKGg&sclient=gws-wiz-serp and really didn't find anything useful.
Uh, I asked ChatGPT and this is what it came up with. Don't ask me to verify if it's real, as ChatGPT is known to make stuff up:
Headline: Scandal Erupts as Berlin Rabbinical Seminary Shutters Amid Debauched Revelry
Date: October 20, 1925
Berlin, Germany—The prestigious Rabbinical Seminary of Berlin, a cornerstone of Jewish scholarship for over five decades, has been dramatically shut down after a scandalous night of excess that has left the Jewish community reeling in disbelief.
The events leading to this shocking closure began last Saturday night, when a group of seminarians, joined by several senior faculty members, reportedly indulged in what has been described as a "debauched spree" across the city. Eyewitnesses recount scenes more fitting of a raucous carnival than a gathering of future rabbis, with rampant public drunkenness, lewd behavior, and even disorderly conduct in front of Berlin’s most sacred Jewish sites.
The situation escalated when the inebriated group, some still clad in their rabbinical robes, were seen cavorting around the city, chanting and singing with abandon. Sources close to the seminary revealed that the night began with a traditional gathering meant to celebrate the conclusion of a rigorous period of study. However, what was intended as a modest celebration quickly spiraled into chaos as alcohol flowed freely and boundaries were shattered.
Astonished onlookers reported seeing respected scholars engaging in antics that included public displays of affection, boisterous singing of secular tunes, and even a disturbing incident involving the defacement of religious texts. As the night wore on, the group attracted the attention of local law enforcement, who were forced to intervene as the behavior of the rabbis-in-training grew increasingly erratic.
In an explosive development, several members of the seminary's faculty, including two revered rabbis, were implicated in the scandal. It is alleged that they not only failed to restrain the students but actively participated in the night's debauchery. These revelations have ignited a firestorm of outrage and disbelief within the community, where such behavior is seen as an unforgivable betrayal of the institution's sacred mission.
Rabbi Isaac Berenstein, the seminary's dean, issued a statement this morning in which he expressed his "profound shame and heartbreak" over the events. "This institution was founded on the pillars of Torah, ethics, and moral integrity. To see it brought so low by the actions of those who should know better is nothing short of a tragedy," he said, struggling to hold back tears.
The board of directors convened in an emergency session shortly after the scandal broke, and within hours, a unanimous decision was reached to close the seminary indefinitely. "We have no choice but to shutter the institution until a thorough investigation can be conducted and those responsible held accountable," announced the board’s spokesperson.
Repercussions have been swift. Several high-profile donors have already withdrawn their financial support, and prominent rabbis from around the world have condemned the behavior, calling it a "stain on the face of Jewish learning." Some are even calling for the permanent dissolution of the seminary, arguing that the sanctity of its mission has been irrevocably tarnished.
Students, many of whom were not involved in the scandal, are now left in limbo, with their studies abruptly halted and their futures uncertain. "I came here to learn and to serve my community, not to be caught up in this disgrace," lamented one student, who spoke on condition of anonymity.
As the full extent of the debacle continues to unfold, the once-revered Berlin Rabbinical Seminary stands as a stark reminder of how quickly the mighty can fall. What began as an innocent celebration has ended in catastrophe, leaving a once-proud institution in ruins and the Jewish community struggling to pick up the pieces.
###
The Berlin Seminary in 1925 had nothing to do with Haskala.
I mean the Haskala movement in Russia, where they had two seminaries - in Vilna and Zhitomir, in the mid 1800s. They were closed down eventually. Read Zichron Yaakov for more details.
🤣🤣🤣
.....As reported in 'der algemeine zeitung fuhn blogger-schaft' and 'der substakenn ge'schrift.'
I asked ChatGPT if it has access to the original newspaper article and it gave me this. Again, not vouching for it's authenticity, use your judgment:
https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F238c889e-4ef3-4fd5-a754-d61035abba22_1024x1024.webp
"His appeals to patriotism, to sharing the burden of the nation that hosts one, are almost verbatim the same appeals that were made by prominent Maskilim during the heyday of the Haskalah."
Maybe some arguments are, but 'too many of us are dying,' 'our families are falling apart from strain of never-ending milluim,' 'we parents can't sleep at night out of concern for our kids fighting in a hellhole in Gaza' etc don't sound like maskillish arguments at all. They're a cri de coeur that they're suffering disproportionately. That doesn't inherently mean that those arguments are valid, any more than the hostage's families demands to pay any price to get their loved ones home is, but it's not some grand attempt to shmad anyone.
Emotional arguments are just that emotional arguments, many times they have little to no validity. In this case, no one denies the sacrifice and the suffering but that doesn’t that their approach to the state and modernity is correct.
Anything not yeshivish is maskilish. Don't you know. You have just identified a dodgy yeshivish equivalence. Like confusing 'hate' with 'furious' and 'disgusted'.
And these chaps probably think they can learn.
Do you think that chareidim don't feel disdain towards datiim?
What's the relevance? Is it a tit for tat? I can't tell you to what extent chareidim have disdain for datim, but if they do, maybe it's because they lack exposure to the more Torah-oriented datim. Maybe it's because of the issue we discussed by email. Maybe it's something that can be changed with more and better dialogue.
No. It dosent justify either way. Even if the disdain was reserved for more lax datiim or MO types it still wouldnt be justified. But if theres disdain from the chareidi side you cant have a טענה on the datiim who just mirror their experiences. I can list a whole bunch of negative experiences ive had in chareidi communities. I'm not alone. This dosent mean i can hate on all chareidim, but it's hard to imagine that the chareidim are mere victims of שנאת עם הארץ like they often claim.
I agree that there is no place for disdain of Jewish people (unless they are מזידים). However, it is necessary and very important to disdain practices and ideologies that are against the Torah. Perhaps this is where we keep on running into the difference between chareidism and the Torah-oriented dati philosophy from Rav Kook, who saw holiness even in secular Zionism. Maybe this is where the biggest impasse is between chareidim and Torah-oriented datim.
I also agree that chareidim are not blameless here, and are maybe even more at fault. But it's not a contest of who is a greater aggressor or a greater victim.
It's a combination of factors. But such disdain against עבירות often leads to sweeping generalizations which imo are just not worth it (obviously my side also needs to watch out for this). Our "עולם התורה" and everyone else. Including those who dont wear hats, pronounce Hebrew differently, disagree over proper communal standards etc.
No. To feel disdain you must be preoccupied day and night with the object of disdain.
How many DL do you think Slifkin actually represents? Probably very few.
His obsession is rare. The general feeling though is pretty widespread id say. Unless you go to יו"ש or similar communities.
In my time as a chareidi i remember hearing a lot of hate on MO/ "mizrachim" as well though
MO and DL/Mizrachi are not the same, even if there is overlap.
If the subject comes up, some derision may be expressed, but if the subject does not come up, which is typical, no one has anything to say.
It comes up quite often.
Your experience doesn't contradict mine.
I have a friend who was a rabbi in a kiruv-oriented yeshiva, and even 20 years ago he was speaking knowingly to me of problems with DL hashkafa from observed experience, pertaining to the attrition rate of DL youth, particularly involving the army. I don't recall disdain being a feeling either of us expressed. I would say it was more sadness for misguided even if well-intentioned ideas that are even more demonstrably catastrophic today.
Most people I knew just went about their lives, not really paying attention to that world at all. I spent most of my adult life in a 100% Charedi city. To the extent there was disdain I remember being expressed (many years ago), it was for the Charedi situation in RBS, and the observed differences in outcomes (macro not micro) between children who grew up in our yishuv vs theirs. There were way more opportunities for their youth to stray.
I'm glad that youv'e had more positive experiences (i also have positive experiences but the negative ones sure do stick in my mind). Btw i think now college is a bigger danger than the army at least for hesder.
I completely agree with this post.
Now that's a real haskama!
Unlike Natan and his bitter band of angry Anglo sycophants, I live in DL stronghold in the Israeli heartland, on a yishuv surrounded by farmland, a good deal closer to Gaza than them.
I have not detected the relentless bitter fury spewed by him and his audience and alleged to be endemic among the DL.
One time, at one kiddush, a particularly opinionated and decidedly not-Charedi Anglo resident, got started fuming about the Charedi stance regarding the war. This was just after the Knesset report on the disposition of the Charedi volunteers from just after 7/10. His wife, also as not-Charedi as they come, immediately silenced him by pointing out the simple observable fact that the IDF didn't want them.
That's it. One incident easily dispelled in many, many months. No simmering sense of anger or resentment. No visceral hatred.
Natan is a bottom dweller, who misleads himself that a few comments in support of his sinas chinam mean he represents a silent majority of DL. He even misrepresents these comments to his post as posts themselves. No, they are just comments. Talk about an ego.
Those of you with second unfiltered smartphones - You have been warned.
Rabbi M. B. O:
Thank you for sharing those thoughts.
I had mentioned in a comment to one of your earlier posts that I would be very honored to meet you in person the next time I come to Lakewood. And I asked how I would find you.
If your name is דוד, as seems not unreasonable (although hardly conclusive) to surmise, that narrows it down quite a bit. But I was hoping you could be yet more specific.
Please let me know. Many thanks.
Shandelman בצלאל
Austin, Texas
Mecharker B'chol Oz is not quite so involved in IM anymore. Neither am I, for that matter. We are slowly winding down for several reasons, among them because we feel have served our purpose and our main opponent has turned into a raving lunatic, see here https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/theo-dicey
"Happy"
I didn't say anything about IM or lunatics or whether you are winding up or down.
I only said that I'd love to meet either or both of you very fine gentlemen in person, and speak with you face to face.
It's the Torah way you know!
ודבר ה' אל משה פנים אל פנים"
".כאשר ידבר איש אל רעהו
But if you feel that all that old-school silliness has now been obsoleted by the wondrous new realities of electronic communication, where you can hide behind cute on-line pseudonyms, and never have to put your name, face, or reputation behind your opinions, then I perfectly understand.
The wondrous new realities of electronic communication pose new challenges, but they also create new opportunities. There are reasons particular to our community why we are hesitant about revealing our identities online, more than modern/secularist Jews are. I only revealed my identity to MOB after several months of collaboration, when I felt I trusted him. But it's possible that MOB is less sensitive to privacy than I am, you can ask him directly at mecharkerbcholoz@gmail.com, he might have just not seen your comment. But if IM doesn't concern you and it's just fine gentlemen in Lakewood you would like to meet, you can walk into any shul/yeshiva/grocery store and meet them. There is nothing special about MOB or myself.
"There are reasons particular to our community why we are hesitant about revealing our identities online"
I thought you were doing God's holy work in exposing heresy and all that goes with it. What possible 'particular' reasons could there be amongst your fellow charedim al d'var Hashem for hiding your identities?
If we are exposing heresy, then why would our identities matter? The heresy gets exposed regardless of who is doing it.
You haven't answered my question.
I know it's yeshivish to answer a question with another question and believe you have answered it (similar to asking somebody a question who responds "Yes, there is a Shach about that", in the yeshiva world is considered an answer (and the responder is mamesh a talmid chochom) but in real life that simply is not the case. In the real world 90% of people with the hallowed reputation 'knows how to learn" can do nothing of the sort. They are just skilled, like you, in answering questions with questions, dodgy mesholim, instant answers, quoting sources impressively from memory that say nothing of the sort and generally bamboozling their chavrusoh or questioner.
Amazing presentation! It is so refreshing to see all the facts without everything just looking gray.
Funny. This is a completely different style to the soldier's previous posts. Does anybody actually believe this is written by a fighting DL soldier?
So you think they are both from me, and only I have the gift of writing in two different styles, but a soldier is not able to? And why do you say "fighting"? You think fighters are incapable of writing anything?
I merely asked a question.
So you "believe this is written by a fighting DL solider" and are taking a poll?
It's a statement in the form of a question. Because plausible deniability is how you roll.
I know many fighting DL (actually usually חרד"ל) soldiers who say similar things, and in hebrew there are many articles who make the exact same points.
What points exactly? One of the techniques here is long wordy articles, 99% of which is not about the topic at hand. So for example the 'other blogger' refers to 'furious' and 'disgusted' which is not the same as this blog"s use of the word 'hate'.
I have seen numerous poskim from the chardali world who write clearly about the clear torah obligation to serve (or ar least assist the national effort). It's hard to believe they, or their talmidim, would simultaneously think highly of those that follow the chareidi approach and shirk national duty.
Testes, most people with Yiras Shamayim recognize that we are individuals, some better and some worse, and their primary concern is how they as individuals are relating to G-d and fulfilling their own responsibilities. Only people like you - with a failed personal life - can put their focus instead on group politics and identity, as if standing with the right side will somehow justify your own personal failures.
They understand that serving is one Mitzva out of 613, it’s not one of the עיקרי האמונה, and they respect the way the charedim learn Torah and keep the other mitzvos.
Well, fine but that's not what this discussion is about.
In any event chareidim (like the DL) are very selective in the way they keep 'other mitzvos". Is a carefully selected bunch of other mitzvos. Mitzvos like mateh akum, teaching a child skills for parnossoh are generally ignored. Zemanei tefillah are ignored. Da'as torah is ignored when convenient (look at the bloggers here ignoring anti internet diktakts). Their general middos are no better than any other group. Their obsession with money is more than any other group). I could go on but can't be bothered.
That is a gross overstatement. Charedim in general are makpid on Halacha
Some. And some, like hilchos mateh akum are completely ignored.
But more fundamentally, they simply find kullos to justify what they need to do. For example mechiras chometz for domestic the way it is done today, visiting the rov etc is completely frowned upon by all major poskim. Ditto hetter iskah for private house purchases. And the big one, nursing homes and other businesses operating with chometz and/or shabbos yom tov based on flimsy bits of paper from a rov and dodgy 'sales' to a non Jew. If a DL rabbi came up with that, all hell would break out.
There isn't a single thing chareidim can't find a hetter for when they want to.
The points made in the article posted in this blog now.
The articles is very clear (and neither "long" nor "wordy").
All major Chardali poskim that I read, can handle complexity well, ב"ה.
I made a typo ("articles" instead of "article")