True. Also known as Plato's cave. Those in the cave will deem those who have seen the light as ludicrous.
The question of if it's actually 'real' or, as you call it, a cult, is beyond the scope of this post. Perhaps we should write one about that. Here we are assuming Torah is true and from Hashem, as most MODOX people very much do; they don't think it's a cult. They just don't understand these deeper subtleties of Judaism, where there is a real yiraas shamayim and the olamos haelyonim contain kedusha, and it is them who we are addressing.
I do not think Judaism is a cult. Not at all. Cha"v! But one when one avoids real questions by pointing to language, it is a sign of thought manipulation obscuring thinking.
O sorry! I misunderstood! I guess I'll have to wait to see what you mean in upcoming posts...
Meanwhile, I'll keep using the same example that is probably overkill at this point to try to clarify. Though hiding in obscurity through language can be an issue, if a blind person can't understand the meaning of the language, this isn't a language issue. No seeing person has any problem with discussing sight and color. But language, by definition, is the tool to name experiences, and if the experiences aren't present, there will be a language problem - but, again, the problem is not the language, it is the lack of experience. (This is Plato's cave in a nutshell.)
1) How would you respond to the many otd who had the experience but stopped believing because of the problems posed by science? I know many such people.
2) How would you respond to the fact that many buddhists have even more intense religious experiences?
1) Assuming they are OTD because they are so “rational” I would first answer their questions from science, as we will hopefully do. But I would then make the more important point, that they probably haven’t had these experiences in an intense way, otherwise they would be more real and they wouldn’t be as bothered by science. Maybe Buddhism would be a challenge to them, but science not so much.
2) Buddhists are all about religious experience, and it is very real to them. We would have to discuss why ours is the authentic one, and this conversation would probably have to do with matan torah and the like – which would be a more logical, factual conversation than the one with the “scientist” who needs more feeling in his life.
In essence, the conversation with the scientific atheist would be the exact opposite of the one with the Buddhist.
I am failing to understand your epistemology. Are experiences valid ways to demonstrate truth? You think they are. (I happen to agree with you). But if experientialism is a valid epistemology, we cannot discount Buddhism (or Mormonism, or any other ism). They would all have to be tapping into the truth, as their experience is just as real as ours. If we would try to argue with their religion based on facts such as matan Torah, they will just say, "you dont share the language - if you did you'd know we are correct"
If experience is not a valid way of producing truth, then we have answered the other religions - its all an illusion or people can have intense experiences without it being the Truth with a capital t - but then Judaism is required to meet the scientific facts. One cannot disregard facts or give some facts more prominence based on feelings and experiences, as that is not a valid way to demonstrate truth. One must then focus on the scientific evidence alone, which results in kefira or a form of modern orthodoxy.
Yes. I have already pointed out to him I know a real sincere commited reform Jew who mamesh has yiras shomayim and a connection with HKBH. I am not sure whether he knows about all the olamos haelyonim, but I am sure he will be happy to believe in them if he can continue to drive on shabbos. He even sings zemiros, tells me how moving, emotional and me'ein olam haboh it is for him. Just like the chossid who lives next door.
This is how they respond. By manipulating your argument into a straw man into something you clearly did not mean, and then attacking it. No honest debater would read into your words that Judaism is a cult.
It is fundamental, but not to my post. These are complex subjects, in a literal sense: made up of may parts. I’m more than happy to address all these points, but it can’t all be done on one foot. Some of these points would require a full page or more just to get to the basics; not quite fitting for a comment section. In this post I am making one point: that Chareidim have a different language than the rest of the world because they are describing a different set of reality. Anything else, while extremely important, is irrelevant in this kind of setting.
(The points you make aren’t irrelevant – they are extremely important! I only mean that in sense of the particular setting.)
Perhaps you can write a list of all your questions and I can work on addressing them in further posts (if the hosts let…) or they could (they are by far better writers). If you can’t wait, I'm happy to email, my email address is in my profile….
"In this post I am making one point: that Chareidim have a different language than the rest of the world because they are describing a different set of reality"
No. You did more than that. You stated that because of that point, many questions disappear such as torah and science. And that there is less 'cooling effect'.
Further to that, in your comments, you stated that only chareidim understand 'olamos haelyonim'. And they have the correct view of God, calling him Hashem. You also changed your tune, now referring to chareidi ideology, rather than language. And that his language issue leads Modox dowm the wrong path.
I don't have the resources right now to go through all your comments, but you did a lot more than make an isolated statement of academic interest only.
Yes dear, you're right. I did say more than just that. I did also say that science has a cooling affect, and putting science into the proper framework may help reduce that. I also said that only the Jewish version of these "worlds" are correct, and that the chareidim perpetuate these ideas, not the "rationalist" MODOX community who are influenced by the science culture, which we will discuss in an upcoming post. I am sorry for misspeaking, hope you get my point though.
"They just don't understand these deeper subtleties of Judaism, where there is a real yiraas shamayim and the olamos haelyonim contain kedusha,"
I don't want to dissapoint you but the average chareidi hasn't a clue either. The difference is chareidim are into walking the walk and talking the talk. The modox are not.
For a start real yeshivish chareidim are not even permitted to study these matters. A few daf of noshim nazikin and how to assur an eiruv is about as far as it goes. Listening to a rebbe mumble at a tisch about olamos haelyonim doesn't count.
True, your not wrong, many chareidim haven’t had the joy. As we will discuss in the next post, I am referring to the chareidi ideology more than all the people. But because this is the chareidi ideology, at least many chareidim do understand what I’m talking about, which means we’rethe ones (assuming I’m correct) heading I the right direction. As opposed to MODX ideology which leads people the wrong way more often than not. Again, nothing against the MODX people; there are plenty of fine good ones. It’s the hashkafa that I am picking on.
The very issue with many chareidim is the fact that they speak a different language. A ben Torah should speak the language of the common man. While we are supposed to live a Torah life through working within the world Hashem gave us, to perfect the individual and society(עיין מו"נ), some have decided to respond to the threats from the outside by retreating to their ד אמות of lakewood. Torah which is detached from דרך ארץ of working to support a family, and from scientific knowledge and from Jewish National life is sorely lacking. We should be spreading דעת throughout the nation. Not making up a frumspeak which is unintelligible to others while we bask our personal growth. Do we want to be a teivat noach or a lighthouse?
When talking to goyim, we should speak in beautiful English, and those that are that profession do. But when in Lakewood or wherever, why should we not speak our language? And we are not making up frumspeak; we are using the language of the Torah and its Mesorah.
What I said about goyim goes (lehavvdil 1000x) for Yidden who don’t understand the language as well. When I speak to my MODOX friends, I don’t use a word of Yeshivish. When people write books for other sects of Klal Yisroel, English is our bridge. Artscroll did an amazing job, as Test pointed out. It isn’t the Yiddish or yeshivish language per se that I am advocating, rather that we should be proud using our dialect which carries a ton of meaning that may not be as accessible in English.
Do you have a Torah source for your impassioned plea? Or is that your opinion?
Because as far as I am concerned, the Torah does not need to bend for the 'common man', whoever he might be. If he wants to understand the Torah, by all means, come and study. But the demand that the Torah change its language and ways for him is just his hubris. "I am too lazy to learn, and that makes me the one who gets to decide what language you should use."
Mainly my knowledge of rishonim like Rambam. What was he doing in More Nevuchim quoting Aristotle? He wouldn't discard Mitzvot or Ikarei Emuna due to Aristotle but he wanted Torah to fit with logic, reason and yes philosophy. That's why he believed that angels can't come down in human form and whenever we see one in the Torah it's a prophetic dream or mashal. That's why he believed that we will die even after Techiyat Hameitim as the חומר is in essence temporary and only the שכל can be preserved. The Torah was meant to be learned for all generations. We can't bend the values or commands but it's our job (mainly that of our Rabanim) to apply the Torahs teachings to our day. Just like Mussar vs chasidut as well as Rav Hirsch vs Rav Kook (they were very different). Everyone tries to have a Derech for their generation. Malbim interpreted to combat the reform movements biblical criticism.
“…What was [t]he [Rambam] doing in More Nevuchim quoting Aristotle? He wouldn't discard Mitzvot or Ikarei Emuna due to Aristotle but he wanted Torah to fit with logic, reason and yes philosophy...”
I like how Hagaon R’ Ahron Lopiansky Shlit’a explains it in his Hakdama shiur to his Moreh Nevuchim series, that quoting Aristotle is like using words such as “subconscious” from Freud. Freud, for all his awful shortcomings, had an uncanny ability to simplify complex subjects into terms and words.
Aristotle was a giant of a genius and he created an entire mode of vocabulary, and hence, thought (vocabulary and language affect how we process our thoughts) - maybe the only one to ever to do that in all of history. He didn’t just have a a few nice ideas or even a lot of nice ideas; his work was a qualitative masterpiece. He entered into the lexicon of human civilization an entire approach to how we think about basically everything. (Modern sciences call Aristotle outdated, but many hardly realize how much every single thought they think is influenced by Aristotle’s brilliance.)
This is not apologetics - the Rambam is pretty clear about this but it is beyond the scope of this discussion to really get into the Rambam’s shita. Maybe a later post (hosts permitting). (Or for all I know it'll be pulled out of me here...)
I agree. The Rambam did not have a defensive, fearfull stance. He knew what chazal meant when they said "חכמה בגויים תאמין". We are all affected by the scientific discoveries of our day. We should know not to shun them just like we wouldn't shun an atheist doctor when in need of treatment. I understand that the Rambam was attacked for reinterpreted things using philosophy like his view on melachim etc but that doesn't negate the legitimacy of his approach especially as it was shared by many of the geonei bavel as well as rishonim such as Meiri, Abarbanel, and Rav Avraham ben Harambam.
But to be clear, the Rambam was affected much less than people think. I'm pretty sure there is but one general Machlokes between the Rambam and the Ramban, and the Rambam is like 99% on the same page as the Mesorah he so strongly adhered to. And that Machlokes, while influenced by philosophy, was more a reaction to people who made the Torah sound silly.
Not bending. יין ישן בכלים חדשים. Applying the Torahs values to the day and age. When people want to know philosophy they would explain Torah through that lens. Obviously they would not justify violating Torah, but they would often have a view which would incorporate (at least partially)חכמת הגוים. I do agree with the bloggers here that there should not be an apologetic stance. That does not mean shunning scientific discovery or philosophy.
Great post but there’s one thing I’m a little confused about. According to Rambam (Hilchos Avodah Zarah 2:5, Hilchos Eidus 11:10, Hilchos Mamrim 3:2, Hilchos Avel 1:10, and elswhere), Slifkin and co are not Jewish. Isn’t it understandable that a non-Jew would have difficulty with the basics of Judaism? The Gemara in Chagiga (13a) states that it’s forbidden to give over divrei Torah to non-Jews because “Lo asah chen lechal goy umishpatim bal yedaum” - “He didn’t do so [give the Torah] to all others nations and He didn’t make known to them His laws.” Likewise, in Sanhedrin (59a) the Gemara states that a non-Jew who studies Torah is chayiv misah because “Torah tziva lanu Moshe morasha” - “Moshe commanded the Torah to us as an inheritance” - “An inheritance to us and not to them.” So while they don’t require milah and tevilah if and when they do teshuvah, they’re currently non-Jews in essence, and therefore it’s understandable they’d have difficulty with the Torah. Aside from the likely possibility that included in those Gemaras is the fact that non-Jews cannot fully understand Torah, it makes sense to assume that a non-Jew lacks the kedushah and taharah and ability to properly attain the 48 kinyanei hatorah. This should explain a lot of things. Slifkin and others seem to lack the ability to forgive and forget. The passuk states explicitly regarding Esav “Ve’evraso sharah netzach” (see Orchos Chaim of Rosh 104 who understands this to apply to all non-Jews). So many people who leave the frum community have no shame parading their indecency in front of the world. Well, only Jews are bayshanim. Many if not most people who leave the frum community act quite viciously towards their families and former community. Well, only Jews are rachmanim. Many people like Slifkin express such nonsensical stupidity (like “minyan factories are bad”). Well, only regarding Jews does it say “Rak am chacham venavon.” etc. etc.
Therefore I’m slightly puzzled by this post. A true “secularly influenced Jew” is likely not a Jew at all. He would therefore have difficulty understanding Torah concepts no matter how they are framed. If the real target audience is true Jews, then what exactly is gained by synthesizing Torah and Science? Most real Jews are not bothered the slightest by apparent contradictions between the two. There are so many easy ways out that it’s hard not to suspect someone with questions as having serious issues (I respect the fact that the author himself doesn’t seem to have questions and also that the opinions expressed do not reflect the views of Irrationalist Modoxism). If this is meant to be a course in “Da ma shetashiv la’apikorus,” then maybe it would be worthwhile to explore the parameters of this mishnah. For example, the Gemara (Sanhedrin 38b) states that it is not talking about a “Jewish” apikorus only a non-Jewish apikorus. In any case, I feel that the fact that people like Slifkin are not actually Jews (in Rambam’s view) has not been adequately expressed.
In addition to offering clarity on many issues, it seems that correctly viewing people who are not Jews as non-Jews is a much less defensive posture. It automatically adopts a position of strength. Of course Jews have a home-court advantage and natural competitive edge in Torah discussions. We never gave much credence to the opinions of non-Jews in these matters and we won’t start now. We are not intimidated by you and your pseudo-scholarship. You are not even part of the Jewish people. We don’t need you, you have nothing to offer. Go to Hell.
I'm not sure you're right about Slifkin not "being Jewish". At the end of the day he keeps Mitzvos and learns Torah and believes in Hashem. It seems that although he talks a lot, at the end of the day he believes. That he may not appreciate Talmidei Chachamim, does render him an apikorus? I'm not sure; besides that he's been hurt which means we shouldn't judge, he also still respects the Torah tremendously, despite his shortcomings. He has been convinced that there are two camps and he feels he has a right to follow one.
I would use a term something more like eiruv rav, very much a Yid, with heavy Goyishe influences. The GR'A discusses eruv rav a lot and my understanding is that it fits these kinds of people; he says that they are still very much a part of us.
"He may even equate us to when a Christian will talk about “Yushke” (in their vernacular, shem rishaim yirkav) which to them is also full of meaning. “Clearly it is indoctrination pumping meaning into the words.” R’L."
This antagonism towards Christians is totally unnecessary. (The shem rishaim yirkav part not referring to their founder as Yoshke which has a halachic basis). Considering they're leading the fight against the secular menace which is a far greater spiritual threat to us Yidden (which is more serious generally in the spirit of דור שלישי. רבי שמעון אומר, מצרים שטבעו את ישראל בים ואדומים שקדמו את ישראל בחרב לא אסרם הכתוב אלא עד ג' דורות, ועמונים ומואבים שנטלו עצה להחטיא את ישראל אסרם הכתוב עד עולם, ללמדך שהמחטיא את האדם קשה לו מן ההורגו, שההורגו אין מוציאו אלא מן העולם הזה והמחטיאו מוציאו אף מן עולם הבא [ספרי]. ) nowadays they're doing us some good. The vast majority of Jews involved in Christianity are products of intermarriage, secularism is a far more prominent issue. (For context, all but two off the derech cases I've heard of are secular and almost always liberal too. I don't know any who got mixed up in Christianity though I've heard of one-case second-hand.)
Point taken, but you'd be surprised at where people like DNS or "Test" will take there ideologies.
I'm not sure why you're so into defending Christianity though, they are not our friends. Our "secular menace" is nothing more than an evolved version of them. Also, though better than their secular counterpart, I think they give more fodder to the prey then they help us
"Our "secular menace" is nothing more than an evolved version of them."
Totally. 100%. Liberalism (and Wokeism which is distinct) is a development from Christianity. It's also more appealing for Jews than Christianity hence more of a spiritual threat. It's, if you will, undergone a natural selection to better appeal to Jews.
"Also, though better than their secular counterpart, I think they give more fodder to the prey then they help us."
Main point is that they dumb down what Hashem really is, or the reasons to believe in Him, and this allows the others to attack religion as per the stupidity that they portray it be.
As for the reasons to believe in Him - Christian Philosophers have been at the forefront of defending belief in Hashem and increasing the academic respectability of our view with rigorous scholarship (eg. Feser, Plantinga, Swinburne). Unfortunately, most of this is unknown to your average person but that's just a PR problem. (Not for lack of people making cute videos explaining it eg. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxiAikEk2vU.)
dumb down what Hashem really is - Agreed with the incarnation and similar doctrines.
We don't need their defense though. This would have to be a longer discussion, but the Torah's depths and Matan Torah and the Mesorah is plenty - all unequivocally *not* Christian ideas. Philosophy on the other hand, which the Christians have been great at, is man's reconstruction of thinking about things, but where every point can be argued as vehemently as defended. I see only (k, mostly) harm in that.
This comment requires an entire post, but nobody here answered you, so I will attempt.
The idea that the Christians are fighting our war in America, making them our allies and ameliorating our disgust and scorn for their beliefs is a dangerous one.
Once we understand that Christianity is bunk, and much of their theology is just a way of controlling others, we need to understand what is behind their 'cultural wars' and how distant they are from our hashkafa, lifestyle and beliefs.
They aren't decent people who wish to live decent lives and are bothered by a culture that accepts things that are anathema to that decency. They are hypocrites (guess which states have greater instances of teen pregnancy?) who use religion to enrich their leaders and force their believers into an endless cycle of negativity and paranoia. Much of their cultural wars have nothing to do with decency and everything to do with hatred of the poor, and taking advantage of privilege to lecture those that were not similarly endowed. None of these are Jewish, or particularly decent, values. There may be a tiny overlap with our opinions of homosexual activities and free love, but there is much more that is shoved into the Venn diagram that has nothing to do with us.
Our job living in a spiritual golus, where society around us has degenerated to hedonism, greed, licentiousness, and evil, is to separate from them, not to find the good in them. We need to remind ourselves that we have our own access to the truth, and there is nothing outside of our access. If we fail to build that wall between us and the non-Torah world, be it right or left, Christian or Muslim, conservative or progressive, then we are allowing their influences to seep in. The operation may be successful, but the patient may die.
I'm not as critical of them as you, many of them are as you describe, but plenty of them are good, decent human beings who believe in goodness and the lord and you know who. But you aren't wrong about the powerful ones. Either way, your main point is spot on - they are not our friends!
With דוד's reservations ("I'm not as critical of them as you, many of them are as you describe, but plenty of them are good, decent human beings who believe in goodness and the lord and you know who. But you aren't wrong about the powerful ones. Either way, your main point is spot on - they are not our friends!") I'd largely agree with your comment besides for the part, "much of their theology is just a way of controlling others." I think that one just doesn't really have much basis. The rest of it I pretty much agree with. That being said, we are affected by our surroundings and a more religious environment (even if laden with Christian hypocrisy) results in more religious Jews. You can find some data on this in The New American Jew.
Come on. You don't have a clue what 'olamos ho'elyonim' are in any language. It just sounds cool. If you did know, you wouldn't be wasting your time on this leutzonus blog.
I'm not going to claim I know what they are exactly, but if you want to open your eyes and read carefully, you could get a pretty good sense. I can quote many who discuss this, be it the Rambam ("rationalist"), Ramchal (mystic), Baalei Mussar, or even Plato if you wish. They all describe a world of "minds", where a person can leave the physicality of his body and connect with a higher realm, the realm where malachim exist, the realm of the neshama, the world which HKBH means something. They all use there own terminology, the Rambam will talk about his lightening analogy, the Ramchal will phrase it as אין עוד מלבדו, Reb Itzele Petterburger calls it "Yiraas Haromemus", the Chazon Ish describes it as "new worlds opeing up to him" and Reb Avigdor Miller calls it, "True Kowledge". Plato's cave was actually describing this as well.
If you have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about, read a little more, and realize that Judaism offers this at its core. Any good Neila is a shadow of this.
Practically all non Jewish religions/philosophies offer the same experience. So why do you believe it is unique to chareidim?
Anyway, I don’t see much of the 'olamos haelyonim' in the mir dining room. Or when Ponovez bochurim are fighting each other. All emperor has no clothes stuff. Sounds good but that's about it.
This is what I meant - I knew you would go here. The question is which is true and which is counterfeit.
About the mir dining room and Ponevez, yes, there are a lot of problems, this word is full of challenges, but that doesn't make it less true. This is sort of the topic of the next post...
I'm sorry you've had such an awful experience, dealing with the wrong people, but this shouldn't cloud reality.
If it's all about "....leave the physicality of his body and connect with a higher realm, the realm where malachim....
If that doesn't happen it is not true. It may have been true once, but that's history. When chareidim talk about 'olem haelyonos' if they no longer exist they no longer exist.
Classic yeshivish name dropping. "Mefurash a Reb Chaim". "Tosfos in Zevochim asks the question". "I heard from the XXX dayan that it's perfectly muttar.". But no actual knowledge.
I'm not sure what you want. "classic name dropping" is a letzonus point to ignore what I said. I'm not quoting to patur myself from answering; I'm showing you, clearly, that this is a long discussion which has tremendous value and worth pursuing and analyzing. I even tried to explain a bit. Yes, there is a real thing called Yiraas Shamayim, feeling like Hashem is in front of you. It can be felt on all levels. An actual good Neilah is a shadow, a 10 hour seder will do it even stronger. If you've never experienced anything like it, I'm not sure what I can say.
And the fact that other religions share somewhat of this experience doesn't take away from from our authenticity, which is backed by the Torah and Mesorah. But that discussion, of comparative religions, is well beyond this framework. If that's your problem, you need a lot of reframing.
You are showing me that when chareidim use words they are not, as you claim, talking a different language. They are talking to sound cool. If they don’t understand the language they are talking it makes it even more meaningless.
You told me you don't understand what olamos halyonim are. Now you are saying *they* understand. More striros in your words that in the Yad Hachzakah.
As I have already pointed out, it's hard to argue yeshivish style in writing. When shouting at your chavrusoh, all these innate contradictions go unanoticed. Not when in writing.
The question isn't what they are, but what are we referring to when we discuss it. When the average yungerman learns Nefesh Hachaim, a picture is formed in his mind. That picture is not wishy-washy spirituality, or new age neo-science. That picture is something that cannot be explained to the self-declared rationalists of the world.
It's like explaining red to a blind person. It is powerful and real, but if you have absolutely no clue what we are talking about than I'm not sure what hope there is to continue debating its veracity. Maybe it would pay to examine the fact that so many people (including other religions) discuss this thing you claim doesn't exist.
Exactly my point. It's a unfalsible statement. You have simply decided that modox, irreligious and non Jewish minds cannot understand, whereas charedim of course canunderstand. Based on zero evidence, in fact you have conceded that no evidence can ever exist, like no evidence can demonstrate the meaning of red to a blind person. It;s merely based on your own prejudcices and the yeshivich kool-aid that charedim are just holier in every way. The luxuirious shetials and goods for sale advertised in the charediei press, notwithstanding.
He didn't say they don't understand, he is talking about people who flat-out deny that Olamos Elyonim exist (like you). It is indeed unfalsifiable (without nissim gluyim) but something that we can feel, apparently you can't. I'm sure there are devout modox people who do feel it, but obviously seculars who deny it exists will not.
I think he can talk for himself, without you reinterpreting his words. No he wasn't talking about people that deny that olamos elyonim exist. He was talking about language and communication. Go away, and let him talk for himself.
Elokim Chai is the feeling that you are actually standing in front of HKBH. As real as in front of your friend. Whether you experienced this or not, tis is the world the chareidim are perpetuating.
And only chareidim believe they are actually standing in front of HKBH? Really? Even when davening in a minyan factory well after zeman? I have a reform colleague at work who sincerely believes he stands in front of HKBH when he davens. When chareidim (they think they are chareidim) fress at a kiddush or in a hotel in Cancun they feel they are standing in front of HKBH? What about when perusing the long glamarous sheitels?
Typical chareidi narrow minded attitude. You don't really have a clue about any other group but are happy to pontificate about what they feel.
"When chareidim (they think they are chareidim) fress at a kiddush or in a hotel in Cancun they feel they are standing in front of HKBH? What about when perusing the long glamarous sheitels?"
I have very much a clue about other groups. Yoou've convinced yourself that anyone who is Chareidi/Yeshivish must have never seen any other way of life otherwise they would change their hashkafas - that's not true. I am (perhaps unfortunately) very exposed, and I am intimately a part of many groups.
Did a Minyan factory molest you in your youth? Were you once turning a corner and a Minyan factory jumped out and said 'boo!' causing lifelong trauma? What is this obsession with minyan factories?
Yes, they are a blight on Charedidom. Now what? What does that say about the Charedi belief system?
Luck indeed. But no doubt happy and the other chap will write a leitzonishe post on how amazing minyan factories are how and how they are more holy than everything else, missing every zeman in the book notwithstanding.
Sorry about the title, I meant that as a reference to Amalek's "cooling the bath" - I hope to help fight the cooling effect which science and secular culture has...
Nah, it's the glamarous ads for luxury items, hotels and designer clothed in Mishpacha, Ami and similar that have the cooling effect. And glamarous sheitels and shtreimelech with spitzin unknown to the chassidim of yesteryear.
Again, there are many problems in the Chareidi/yeshivish world, many that lead to a cooling affect. That we should deal with these, which we should, doesn't mean we shouldn't deal with the fact that thinking the world is billions of years old and it all happened by chance also has a tremendous cooling affect. The issues you bring up are real and important, but they aren't our discussion.
So far nothing is part of our discussion right? You can't keep dismissing fundemental points as 'not part of our discussion'. A fundemental part of the chareidi argument (yours) is that their approach reduces the cooling effect. When I point out that is simply not the case, based on the evidence of the contents of publications quoted, you conveniently say 'not our discussion'. Great.
It's like the fact that there is zero evidence that the boys with no secular education (chassidic style) no chol past age 10 sort of thing say can learn better than those with substantial secular education who go to yeshivah at a much later age after high school. Some can, some can't but if you surveyed like with like intelligence wise, there is no advantage in no secular studies.
There are many problems. The one I am referring to is science. Do you not agree that science has a cooling affect? Do you not agree that thinking the world is billions of years old has a cooling affect on the idea that Hashem is running every aspect of the world intimately? That is what I am referring to. Yes, there other cooling affects, the יצר הרע has many tools, but not the ones I am discussing.
No I don't agree. You haven't presented a single iota of proof. It is perefectly possible to believe the world is billions of years old and still believe Hashem is running every aspect of the world intimately (per the Rishonim who says he does, some rishonim do not say he runs EVERY aspect of the wold initmately, Moreh Nevuchim, Sefer Hachinuch, the Ra'ah, Ramchal, the Ramak in Shiur Komah, the Sefarno (Vayikro 13,47), Rabbeinu Bachyah on Ki Yadativ - but we digress).
As I wrote, it's not a language barrier. It's unfortunate that you've never experienced anything to which these expressions mean anything, but that is what you would be missing if you missed the point. Spending a four hour seder without interruption a few times in your life, with the understanding that you are learning Torah Hashem Yisborach would be a great start to learning this language.
With risk of being too classic, the problem with the word "red" to the blind person is not the language; it is that he has no experience with red to understand that expression.
I learnt in kollel for 10 years, drinking the kool-aid just like you. But eventually you realise how fake and hypocritical that world is, apart from a relatively few yechidi segulah. They chase money just like everyone else despite all the claims to ruchniyis. And once you look at the non kollel branch of chareidi society, it's shocking how they preach virtue but ultimately its all walking the walk and talking the talk (especially gossiping about yenem's money). The corruption and how a few gevirim run the show is disgraceful.
"...how fake and hypocritical that world is, apart from a relatively few yechidi segulah."
Let's rephrase: ...how hard the world is, and therefore only a few yechidei segulah keep their heads over water all the time.
You paint chareidim in a terrible light, I also know all these people you talk about, but they are not what chareidim stand for. they are the bottom half and don't represent our views. I am not discussing individual people but the hashkafa which we espouse. The hashkafa is solid.
Lehavdil, to quote CS Lewis, “When we Christians behave badly, or fail to behave well, we are making Christianity unbelievable to the outside world.”
How do you know the hashkofo is solid? Maybe the modox hashkofo is solid, but you only focus on the 'bottom half' of modox society in your criticism? Wayward individuals who don't represent true modoxy?
Have you thought about things deeply, not just the yeshivish kool-aid?
Because the discussion here, and in other posts, is rarely about activities of MO people, rather their beliefs and the actions, statements and articles from their leaders.
Comparing long glamorous sheitels to a statement of Rabbi Riskin is unfair. Compare Rabbi Riskin's articles to those of Rav Shteinman, and the long glamorous sheitel to the long glamorous hair of Teaneck. If you must discuss gutter issues.
This blog is not about Modox leadership. Straw man.
The point is chareidim claim to be the best of the best. Hence giving themselves the right to be the moral critics of everyone else. As shown by this blog.
When that is simply not the case. As shown by the glamarous sheitels, the violence in gur, and all that goes with it.
And the only counter argument is that 'that is not the discussion here' which is of course untrue.
My response: https://daastorah.substack.com/p/1984
I thought you're postmodern, why are you worried about postmodernism?😜
I like postmodernism for a reason... but I don't think דוד is going there.
Yah I like logic.
True. Also known as Plato's cave. Those in the cave will deem those who have seen the light as ludicrous.
The question of if it's actually 'real' or, as you call it, a cult, is beyond the scope of this post. Perhaps we should write one about that. Here we are assuming Torah is true and from Hashem, as most MODOX people very much do; they don't think it's a cult. They just don't understand these deeper subtleties of Judaism, where there is a real yiraas shamayim and the olamos haelyonim contain kedusha, and it is them who we are addressing.
I do not think Judaism is a cult. Not at all. Cha"v! But one when one avoids real questions by pointing to language, it is a sign of thought manipulation obscuring thinking.
O sorry! I misunderstood! I guess I'll have to wait to see what you mean in upcoming posts...
Meanwhile, I'll keep using the same example that is probably overkill at this point to try to clarify. Though hiding in obscurity through language can be an issue, if a blind person can't understand the meaning of the language, this isn't a language issue. No seeing person has any problem with discussing sight and color. But language, by definition, is the tool to name experiences, and if the experiences aren't present, there will be a language problem - but, again, the problem is not the language, it is the lack of experience. (This is Plato's cave in a nutshell.)
1) How would you respond to the many otd who had the experience but stopped believing because of the problems posed by science? I know many such people.
2) How would you respond to the fact that many buddhists have even more intense religious experiences?
1) Assuming they are OTD because they are so “rational” I would first answer their questions from science, as we will hopefully do. But I would then make the more important point, that they probably haven’t had these experiences in an intense way, otherwise they would be more real and they wouldn’t be as bothered by science. Maybe Buddhism would be a challenge to them, but science not so much.
2) Buddhists are all about religious experience, and it is very real to them. We would have to discuss why ours is the authentic one, and this conversation would probably have to do with matan torah and the like – which would be a more logical, factual conversation than the one with the “scientist” who needs more feeling in his life.
In essence, the conversation with the scientific atheist would be the exact opposite of the one with the Buddhist.
I am failing to understand your epistemology. Are experiences valid ways to demonstrate truth? You think they are. (I happen to agree with you). But if experientialism is a valid epistemology, we cannot discount Buddhism (or Mormonism, or any other ism). They would all have to be tapping into the truth, as their experience is just as real as ours. If we would try to argue with their religion based on facts such as matan Torah, they will just say, "you dont share the language - if you did you'd know we are correct"
If experience is not a valid way of producing truth, then we have answered the other religions - its all an illusion or people can have intense experiences without it being the Truth with a capital t - but then Judaism is required to meet the scientific facts. One cannot disregard facts or give some facts more prominence based on feelings and experiences, as that is not a valid way to demonstrate truth. One must then focus on the scientific evidence alone, which results in kefira or a form of modern orthodoxy.
Yes. I have already pointed out to him I know a real sincere commited reform Jew who mamesh has yiras shomayim and a connection with HKBH. I am not sure whether he knows about all the olamos haelyonim, but I am sure he will be happy to believe in them if he can continue to drive on shabbos. He even sings zemiros, tells me how moving, emotional and me'ein olam haboh it is for him. Just like the chossid who lives next door.
This is how they respond. By manipulating your argument into a straw man into something you clearly did not mean, and then attacking it. No honest debater would read into your words that Judaism is a cult.
My bad.
Sorry again ash for the misunderstanding...
Yet another fundamental point to your whole argument, that is 'beyond the scope of this post'.
No it isn't. It is an intrinsic part of your post. Deal with it.
It is fundamental, but not to my post. These are complex subjects, in a literal sense: made up of may parts. I’m more than happy to address all these points, but it can’t all be done on one foot. Some of these points would require a full page or more just to get to the basics; not quite fitting for a comment section. In this post I am making one point: that Chareidim have a different language than the rest of the world because they are describing a different set of reality. Anything else, while extremely important, is irrelevant in this kind of setting.
(The points you make aren’t irrelevant – they are extremely important! I only mean that in sense of the particular setting.)
Perhaps you can write a list of all your questions and I can work on addressing them in further posts (if the hosts let…) or they could (they are by far better writers). If you can’t wait, I'm happy to email, my email address is in my profile….
"In this post I am making one point: that Chareidim have a different language than the rest of the world because they are describing a different set of reality"
No. You did more than that. You stated that because of that point, many questions disappear such as torah and science. And that there is less 'cooling effect'.
Further to that, in your comments, you stated that only chareidim understand 'olamos haelyonim'. And they have the correct view of God, calling him Hashem. You also changed your tune, now referring to chareidi ideology, rather than language. And that his language issue leads Modox dowm the wrong path.
I don't have the resources right now to go through all your comments, but you did a lot more than make an isolated statement of academic interest only.
Yes dear, you're right. I did say more than just that. I did also say that science has a cooling affect, and putting science into the proper framework may help reduce that. I also said that only the Jewish version of these "worlds" are correct, and that the chareidim perpetuate these ideas, not the "rationalist" MODOX community who are influenced by the science culture, which we will discuss in an upcoming post. I am sorry for misspeaking, hope you get my point though.
"They just don't understand these deeper subtleties of Judaism, where there is a real yiraas shamayim and the olamos haelyonim contain kedusha,"
I don't want to dissapoint you but the average chareidi hasn't a clue either. The difference is chareidim are into walking the walk and talking the talk. The modox are not.
For a start real yeshivish chareidim are not even permitted to study these matters. A few daf of noshim nazikin and how to assur an eiruv is about as far as it goes. Listening to a rebbe mumble at a tisch about olamos haelyonim doesn't count.
True, your not wrong, many chareidim haven’t had the joy. As we will discuss in the next post, I am referring to the chareidi ideology more than all the people. But because this is the chareidi ideology, at least many chareidim do understand what I’m talking about, which means we’rethe ones (assuming I’m correct) heading I the right direction. As opposed to MODX ideology which leads people the wrong way more often than not. Again, nothing against the MODX people; there are plenty of fine good ones. It’s the hashkafa that I am picking on.
So you are talking about ideology now? I thought it was about language. Can you get the story straight?
You don't know what you are talking about. Sorry that you had such a bad experience in Yeshiva.
The very issue with many chareidim is the fact that they speak a different language. A ben Torah should speak the language of the common man. While we are supposed to live a Torah life through working within the world Hashem gave us, to perfect the individual and society(עיין מו"נ), some have decided to respond to the threats from the outside by retreating to their ד אמות of lakewood. Torah which is detached from דרך ארץ of working to support a family, and from scientific knowledge and from Jewish National life is sorely lacking. We should be spreading דעת throughout the nation. Not making up a frumspeak which is unintelligible to others while we bask our personal growth. Do we want to be a teivat noach or a lighthouse?
When talking to goyim, we should speak in beautiful English, and those that are that profession do. But when in Lakewood or wherever, why should we not speak our language? And we are not making up frumspeak; we are using the language of the Torah and its Mesorah.
The majority of עם ישראל doesn't understand your language. It's out job to present a Torah which is intelligible.
What I said about goyim goes (lehavvdil 1000x) for Yidden who don’t understand the language as well. When I speak to my MODOX friends, I don’t use a word of Yeshivish. When people write books for other sects of Klal Yisroel, English is our bridge. Artscroll did an amazing job, as Test pointed out. It isn’t the Yiddish or yeshivish language per se that I am advocating, rather that we should be proud using our dialect which carries a ton of meaning that may not be as accessible in English.
Do you have a Torah source for your impassioned plea? Or is that your opinion?
Because as far as I am concerned, the Torah does not need to bend for the 'common man', whoever he might be. If he wants to understand the Torah, by all means, come and study. But the demand that the Torah change its language and ways for him is just his hubris. "I am too lazy to learn, and that makes me the one who gets to decide what language you should use."
Mainly my knowledge of rishonim like Rambam. What was he doing in More Nevuchim quoting Aristotle? He wouldn't discard Mitzvot or Ikarei Emuna due to Aristotle but he wanted Torah to fit with logic, reason and yes philosophy. That's why he believed that angels can't come down in human form and whenever we see one in the Torah it's a prophetic dream or mashal. That's why he believed that we will die even after Techiyat Hameitim as the חומר is in essence temporary and only the שכל can be preserved. The Torah was meant to be learned for all generations. We can't bend the values or commands but it's our job (mainly that of our Rabanim) to apply the Torahs teachings to our day. Just like Mussar vs chasidut as well as Rav Hirsch vs Rav Kook (they were very different). Everyone tries to have a Derech for their generation. Malbim interpreted to combat the reform movements biblical criticism.
The Rambam wrote the Moreh in Judeo-Arabic and in his tzavaah he instructed that it shouldn't be copied in Arabic characters.
Now it's translated into Hebrew. Fair Game for those who can understand or are have Rabanim that can explain it.
“…What was [t]he [Rambam] doing in More Nevuchim quoting Aristotle? He wouldn't discard Mitzvot or Ikarei Emuna due to Aristotle but he wanted Torah to fit with logic, reason and yes philosophy...”
I like how Hagaon R’ Ahron Lopiansky Shlit’a explains it in his Hakdama shiur to his Moreh Nevuchim series, that quoting Aristotle is like using words such as “subconscious” from Freud. Freud, for all his awful shortcomings, had an uncanny ability to simplify complex subjects into terms and words.
Aristotle was a giant of a genius and he created an entire mode of vocabulary, and hence, thought (vocabulary and language affect how we process our thoughts) - maybe the only one to ever to do that in all of history. He didn’t just have a a few nice ideas or even a lot of nice ideas; his work was a qualitative masterpiece. He entered into the lexicon of human civilization an entire approach to how we think about basically everything. (Modern sciences call Aristotle outdated, but many hardly realize how much every single thought they think is influenced by Aristotle’s brilliance.)
This is not apologetics - the Rambam is pretty clear about this but it is beyond the scope of this discussion to really get into the Rambam’s shita. Maybe a later post (hosts permitting). (Or for all I know it'll be pulled out of me here...)
I agree. The Rambam did not have a defensive, fearfull stance. He knew what chazal meant when they said "חכמה בגויים תאמין". We are all affected by the scientific discoveries of our day. We should know not to shun them just like we wouldn't shun an atheist doctor when in need of treatment. I understand that the Rambam was attacked for reinterpreted things using philosophy like his view on melachim etc but that doesn't negate the legitimacy of his approach especially as it was shared by many of the geonei bavel as well as rishonim such as Meiri, Abarbanel, and Rav Avraham ben Harambam.
But to be clear, the Rambam was affected much less than people think. I'm pretty sure there is but one general Machlokes between the Rambam and the Ramban, and the Rambam is like 99% on the same page as the Mesorah he so strongly adhered to. And that Machlokes, while influenced by philosophy, was more a reaction to people who made the Torah sound silly.
He quotes Tanach and Chazal throughout More Nevuchim, true. He attempts to formulate his views in a way which fits the Mesorah. That is correct
So, nothing?
No source at all that the Torah must change its language for the common man.
As I thought.
Ye I answered you above.
My knowledge of Rishonim...
You said the word Rishonim, yet none of them said anything about bending to the common man. Even in your way of quoting them.
Not bending. יין ישן בכלים חדשים. Applying the Torahs values to the day and age. When people want to know philosophy they would explain Torah through that lens. Obviously they would not justify violating Torah, but they would often have a view which would incorporate (at least partially)חכמת הגוים. I do agree with the bloggers here that there should not be an apologetic stance. That does not mean shunning scientific discovery or philosophy.
I answered above. Maybe i wrote it in the wrong place
It's not a quote but if you've read moreh nevuchim that should give you a good idea of the Rambams general approach.
Great post but there’s one thing I’m a little confused about. According to Rambam (Hilchos Avodah Zarah 2:5, Hilchos Eidus 11:10, Hilchos Mamrim 3:2, Hilchos Avel 1:10, and elswhere), Slifkin and co are not Jewish. Isn’t it understandable that a non-Jew would have difficulty with the basics of Judaism? The Gemara in Chagiga (13a) states that it’s forbidden to give over divrei Torah to non-Jews because “Lo asah chen lechal goy umishpatim bal yedaum” - “He didn’t do so [give the Torah] to all others nations and He didn’t make known to them His laws.” Likewise, in Sanhedrin (59a) the Gemara states that a non-Jew who studies Torah is chayiv misah because “Torah tziva lanu Moshe morasha” - “Moshe commanded the Torah to us as an inheritance” - “An inheritance to us and not to them.” So while they don’t require milah and tevilah if and when they do teshuvah, they’re currently non-Jews in essence, and therefore it’s understandable they’d have difficulty with the Torah. Aside from the likely possibility that included in those Gemaras is the fact that non-Jews cannot fully understand Torah, it makes sense to assume that a non-Jew lacks the kedushah and taharah and ability to properly attain the 48 kinyanei hatorah. This should explain a lot of things. Slifkin and others seem to lack the ability to forgive and forget. The passuk states explicitly regarding Esav “Ve’evraso sharah netzach” (see Orchos Chaim of Rosh 104 who understands this to apply to all non-Jews). So many people who leave the frum community have no shame parading their indecency in front of the world. Well, only Jews are bayshanim. Many if not most people who leave the frum community act quite viciously towards their families and former community. Well, only Jews are rachmanim. Many people like Slifkin express such nonsensical stupidity (like “minyan factories are bad”). Well, only regarding Jews does it say “Rak am chacham venavon.” etc. etc.
Therefore I’m slightly puzzled by this post. A true “secularly influenced Jew” is likely not a Jew at all. He would therefore have difficulty understanding Torah concepts no matter how they are framed. If the real target audience is true Jews, then what exactly is gained by synthesizing Torah and Science? Most real Jews are not bothered the slightest by apparent contradictions between the two. There are so many easy ways out that it’s hard not to suspect someone with questions as having serious issues (I respect the fact that the author himself doesn’t seem to have questions and also that the opinions expressed do not reflect the views of Irrationalist Modoxism). If this is meant to be a course in “Da ma shetashiv la’apikorus,” then maybe it would be worthwhile to explore the parameters of this mishnah. For example, the Gemara (Sanhedrin 38b) states that it is not talking about a “Jewish” apikorus only a non-Jewish apikorus. In any case, I feel that the fact that people like Slifkin are not actually Jews (in Rambam’s view) has not been adequately expressed.
In addition to offering clarity on many issues, it seems that correctly viewing people who are not Jews as non-Jews is a much less defensive posture. It automatically adopts a position of strength. Of course Jews have a home-court advantage and natural competitive edge in Torah discussions. We never gave much credence to the opinions of non-Jews in these matters and we won’t start now. We are not intimidated by you and your pseudo-scholarship. You are not even part of the Jewish people. We don’t need you, you have nothing to offer. Go to Hell.
I'm not sure you're right about Slifkin not "being Jewish". At the end of the day he keeps Mitzvos and learns Torah and believes in Hashem. It seems that although he talks a lot, at the end of the day he believes. That he may not appreciate Talmidei Chachamim, does render him an apikorus? I'm not sure; besides that he's been hurt which means we shouldn't judge, he also still respects the Torah tremendously, despite his shortcomings. He has been convinced that there are two camps and he feels he has a right to follow one.
I would use a term something more like eiruv rav, very much a Yid, with heavy Goyishe influences. The GR'A discusses eruv rav a lot and my understanding is that it fits these kinds of people; he says that they are still very much a part of us.
"He may even equate us to when a Christian will talk about “Yushke” (in their vernacular, shem rishaim yirkav) which to them is also full of meaning. “Clearly it is indoctrination pumping meaning into the words.” R’L."
This antagonism towards Christians is totally unnecessary. (The shem rishaim yirkav part not referring to their founder as Yoshke which has a halachic basis). Considering they're leading the fight against the secular menace which is a far greater spiritual threat to us Yidden (which is more serious generally in the spirit of דור שלישי. רבי שמעון אומר, מצרים שטבעו את ישראל בים ואדומים שקדמו את ישראל בחרב לא אסרם הכתוב אלא עד ג' דורות, ועמונים ומואבים שנטלו עצה להחטיא את ישראל אסרם הכתוב עד עולם, ללמדך שהמחטיא את האדם קשה לו מן ההורגו, שההורגו אין מוציאו אלא מן העולם הזה והמחטיאו מוציאו אף מן עולם הבא [ספרי]. ) nowadays they're doing us some good. The vast majority of Jews involved in Christianity are products of intermarriage, secularism is a far more prominent issue. (For context, all but two off the derech cases I've heard of are secular and almost always liberal too. I don't know any who got mixed up in Christianity though I've heard of one-case second-hand.)
Cue the flame wars.
Point taken, but you'd be surprised at where people like DNS or "Test" will take there ideologies.
I'm not sure why you're so into defending Christianity though, they are not our friends. Our "secular menace" is nothing more than an evolved version of them. Also, though better than their secular counterpart, I think they give more fodder to the prey then they help us
"Our "secular menace" is nothing more than an evolved version of them."
Totally. 100%. Liberalism (and Wokeism which is distinct) is a development from Christianity. It's also more appealing for Jews than Christianity hence more of a spiritual threat. It's, if you will, undergone a natural selection to better appeal to Jews.
"Also, though better than their secular counterpart, I think they give more fodder to the prey then they help us."
Elaborate. I'm not sure what you mean by this.
Main point is that they dumb down what Hashem really is, or the reasons to believe in Him, and this allows the others to attack religion as per the stupidity that they portray it be.
As for the reasons to believe in Him - Christian Philosophers have been at the forefront of defending belief in Hashem and increasing the academic respectability of our view with rigorous scholarship (eg. Feser, Plantinga, Swinburne). Unfortunately, most of this is unknown to your average person but that's just a PR problem. (Not for lack of people making cute videos explaining it eg. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxiAikEk2vU.)
dumb down what Hashem really is - Agreed with the incarnation and similar doctrines.
We don't need their defense though. This would have to be a longer discussion, but the Torah's depths and Matan Torah and the Mesorah is plenty - all unequivocally *not* Christian ideas. Philosophy on the other hand, which the Christians have been great at, is man's reconstruction of thinking about things, but where every point can be argued as vehemently as defended. I see only (k, mostly) harm in that.
Rabbi Miller was a big fan of the Christian scientists that disprove evolution, and in particular the young earth creationists.
This comment requires an entire post, but nobody here answered you, so I will attempt.
The idea that the Christians are fighting our war in America, making them our allies and ameliorating our disgust and scorn for their beliefs is a dangerous one.
Once we understand that Christianity is bunk, and much of their theology is just a way of controlling others, we need to understand what is behind their 'cultural wars' and how distant they are from our hashkafa, lifestyle and beliefs.
They aren't decent people who wish to live decent lives and are bothered by a culture that accepts things that are anathema to that decency. They are hypocrites (guess which states have greater instances of teen pregnancy?) who use religion to enrich their leaders and force their believers into an endless cycle of negativity and paranoia. Much of their cultural wars have nothing to do with decency and everything to do with hatred of the poor, and taking advantage of privilege to lecture those that were not similarly endowed. None of these are Jewish, or particularly decent, values. There may be a tiny overlap with our opinions of homosexual activities and free love, but there is much more that is shoved into the Venn diagram that has nothing to do with us.
Our job living in a spiritual golus, where society around us has degenerated to hedonism, greed, licentiousness, and evil, is to separate from them, not to find the good in them. We need to remind ourselves that we have our own access to the truth, and there is nothing outside of our access. If we fail to build that wall between us and the non-Torah world, be it right or left, Christian or Muslim, conservative or progressive, then we are allowing their influences to seep in. The operation may be successful, but the patient may die.
Important comment. הן עם לבדד ישכן ובגוים לא יתחשב
I'm not as critical of them as you, many of them are as you describe, but plenty of them are good, decent human beings who believe in goodness and the lord and you know who. But you aren't wrong about the powerful ones. Either way, your main point is spot on - they are not our friends!
With דוד's reservations ("I'm not as critical of them as you, many of them are as you describe, but plenty of them are good, decent human beings who believe in goodness and the lord and you know who. But you aren't wrong about the powerful ones. Either way, your main point is spot on - they are not our friends!") I'd largely agree with your comment besides for the part, "much of their theology is just a way of controlling others." I think that one just doesn't really have much basis. The rest of it I pretty much agree with. That being said, we are affected by our surroundings and a more religious environment (even if laden with Christian hypocrisy) results in more religious Jews. You can find some data on this in The New American Jew.
Come on. You don't have a clue what 'olamos ho'elyonim' are in any language. It just sounds cool. If you did know, you wouldn't be wasting your time on this leutzonus blog.
I'm not going to claim I know what they are exactly, but if you want to open your eyes and read carefully, you could get a pretty good sense. I can quote many who discuss this, be it the Rambam ("rationalist"), Ramchal (mystic), Baalei Mussar, or even Plato if you wish. They all describe a world of "minds", where a person can leave the physicality of his body and connect with a higher realm, the realm where malachim exist, the realm of the neshama, the world which HKBH means something. They all use there own terminology, the Rambam will talk about his lightening analogy, the Ramchal will phrase it as אין עוד מלבדו, Reb Itzele Petterburger calls it "Yiraas Haromemus", the Chazon Ish describes it as "new worlds opeing up to him" and Reb Avigdor Miller calls it, "True Kowledge". Plato's cave was actually describing this as well.
If you have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about, read a little more, and realize that Judaism offers this at its core. Any good Neila is a shadow of this.
We didn't realize you were ctbr although we suspected it. Thanks for this amazing post!
Ha, I thought I mentioned it to Mecharker at some point....
Thanks to you guys for the podium:)
Practically all non Jewish religions/philosophies offer the same experience. So why do you believe it is unique to chareidim?
Anyway, I don’t see much of the 'olamos haelyonim' in the mir dining room. Or when Ponovez bochurim are fighting each other. All emperor has no clothes stuff. Sounds good but that's about it.
This is what I meant - I knew you would go here. The question is which is true and which is counterfeit.
About the mir dining room and Ponevez, yes, there are a lot of problems, this word is full of challenges, but that doesn't make it less true. This is sort of the topic of the next post...
I'm sorry you've had such an awful experience, dealing with the wrong people, but this shouldn't cloud reality.
"It doesn't make it less true".
Yes it does. What is truth?
If it's all about "....leave the physicality of his body and connect with a higher realm, the realm where malachim....
If that doesn't happen it is not true. It may have been true once, but that's history. When chareidim talk about 'olem haelyonos' if they no longer exist they no longer exist.
100%, these worlds are only real if they exist, true. That is not our discussion though, our discussion is about what these supposed worlds are.
No. Our discussion is about language currently used by chareidim. Read your own post.
Wonderful!
What exactly is a 'good neilah'? in EY when they rush to get birchas koanim in before shekiah, is that a "good neilah'? Personally I don't think so.
Yes, there are a lot of problems, this word is full of challenges, but that doesn't make it less true. This is sort of the topic of the next post...
I'm sorry you've had such an awful experience, dealing with the wrong people, but this shouldn't cloud reality.
Language reflects the current world.
Classic yeshivish name dropping. "Mefurash a Reb Chaim". "Tosfos in Zevochim asks the question". "I heard from the XXX dayan that it's perfectly muttar.". But no actual knowledge.
Been there done that.
I'm not sure what you want. "classic name dropping" is a letzonus point to ignore what I said. I'm not quoting to patur myself from answering; I'm showing you, clearly, that this is a long discussion which has tremendous value and worth pursuing and analyzing. I even tried to explain a bit. Yes, there is a real thing called Yiraas Shamayim, feeling like Hashem is in front of you. It can be felt on all levels. An actual good Neilah is a shadow, a 10 hour seder will do it even stronger. If you've never experienced anything like it, I'm not sure what I can say.
And the fact that other religions share somewhat of this experience doesn't take away from from our authenticity, which is backed by the Torah and Mesorah. But that discussion, of comparative religions, is well beyond this framework. If that's your problem, you need a lot of reframing.
You are showing me that when chareidim use words they are not, as you claim, talking a different language. They are talking to sound cool. If they don’t understand the language they are talking it makes it even more meaningless.
*They* understand the language. *You*, who doesn't, hear everything as an outsider and reflect your understanding on them...
and yes, we're known for trying to be be super cool, so you hit the nail on the head!
You told me you don't understand what olamos halyonim are. Now you are saying *they* understand. More striros in your words that in the Yad Hachzakah.
As I have already pointed out, it's hard to argue yeshivish style in writing. When shouting at your chavrusoh, all these innate contradictions go unanoticed. Not when in writing.
Nice try.
The question isn't what they are, but what are we referring to when we discuss it. When the average yungerman learns Nefesh Hachaim, a picture is formed in his mind. That picture is not wishy-washy spirituality, or new age neo-science. That picture is something that cannot be explained to the self-declared rationalists of the world.
Hocus pocus...
Vague imagery which is unfalsifiable.
What's neo new age science? You mean science in general like biology?
Sorry, I don't worship at the altar of 'falsifiability'.
Neo-science is kinesiology, chakras and homeopathy.
If it can't be explained how do you know it is different to the picture formed in a modox or irreligious or even non Jewish mind?
Answer: You don't. You have no idea.
It's like explaining red to a blind person. It is powerful and real, but if you have absolutely no clue what we are talking about than I'm not sure what hope there is to continue debating its veracity. Maybe it would pay to examine the fact that so many people (including other religions) discuss this thing you claim doesn't exist.
Exactly my point. It's a unfalsible statement. You have simply decided that modox, irreligious and non Jewish minds cannot understand, whereas charedim of course canunderstand. Based on zero evidence, in fact you have conceded that no evidence can ever exist, like no evidence can demonstrate the meaning of red to a blind person. It;s merely based on your own prejudcices and the yeshivich kool-aid that charedim are just holier in every way. The luxuirious shetials and goods for sale advertised in the charediei press, notwithstanding.
He didn't say they don't understand, he is talking about people who flat-out deny that Olamos Elyonim exist (like you). It is indeed unfalsifiable (without nissim gluyim) but something that we can feel, apparently you can't. I'm sure there are devout modox people who do feel it, but obviously seculars who deny it exists will not.
I think he can talk for himself, without you reinterpreting his words. No he wasn't talking about people that deny that olamos elyonim exist. He was talking about language and communication. Go away, and let him talk for himself.
...There is no “Elokim Chai” in such a life...
What is meant by 'Elokim Chai' and why does that life 'not' have it, yet the chareidi life does have it?
Explain your points clearly, otherwise your post is a lot of waffle.
Elokim Chai is the feeling that you are actually standing in front of HKBH. As real as in front of your friend. Whether you experienced this or not, tis is the world the chareidim are perpetuating.
And only chareidim believe they are actually standing in front of HKBH? Really? Even when davening in a minyan factory well after zeman? I have a reform colleague at work who sincerely believes he stands in front of HKBH when he davens. When chareidim (they think they are chareidim) fress at a kiddush or in a hotel in Cancun they feel they are standing in front of HKBH? What about when perusing the long glamarous sheitels?
Typical chareidi narrow minded attitude. You don't really have a clue about any other group but are happy to pontificate about what they feel.
Yes, there are a lot of problems, this word is full of challenges, but that doesn't make it less true. This is sort of the topic of the next post...
I'm sorry you've had such an awful experience, dealing with the wrong people, but this shouldn't cloud reality.
What does that have to do with I wrote?
"When chareidim (they think they are chareidim) fress at a kiddush or in a hotel in Cancun they feel they are standing in front of HKBH? What about when perusing the long glamarous sheitels?"
I have very much a clue about other groups. Yoou've convinced yourself that anyone who is Chareidi/Yeshivish must have never seen any other way of life otherwise they would change their hashkafas - that's not true. I am (perhaps unfortunately) very exposed, and I am intimately a part of many groups.
Did a Minyan factory molest you in your youth? Were you once turning a corner and a Minyan factory jumped out and said 'boo!' causing lifelong trauma? What is this obsession with minyan factories?
Yes, they are a blight on Charedidom. Now what? What does that say about the Charedi belief system?
Minyan factories demonstrate clearly in front of everyone's eyes, that the chareidi claim to extra piety is complete nonsense.
Lucky this post wasn't about 'claims to extra piety' then.
Luck indeed. But no doubt happy and the other chap will write a leitzonishe post on how amazing minyan factories are how and how they are more holy than everything else, missing every zeman in the book notwithstanding.
What does 'reheating the bath' mean?
When I saw the title I thought this post was going to be about yeish bishul achar bishul b'dovor lach. But no.
Sorry about the title, I meant that as a reference to Amalek's "cooling the bath" - I hope to help fight the cooling effect which science and secular culture has...
LOL btw, I do enjoy your wit
Nah, it's the glamarous ads for luxury items, hotels and designer clothed in Mishpacha, Ami and similar that have the cooling effect. And glamarous sheitels and shtreimelech with spitzin unknown to the chassidim of yesteryear.
Look inwards.
Again, there are many problems in the Chareidi/yeshivish world, many that lead to a cooling affect. That we should deal with these, which we should, doesn't mean we shouldn't deal with the fact that thinking the world is billions of years old and it all happened by chance also has a tremendous cooling affect. The issues you bring up are real and important, but they aren't our discussion.
So far nothing is part of our discussion right? You can't keep dismissing fundemental points as 'not part of our discussion'. A fundemental part of the chareidi argument (yours) is that their approach reduces the cooling effect. When I point out that is simply not the case, based on the evidence of the contents of publications quoted, you conveniently say 'not our discussion'. Great.
It's like the fact that there is zero evidence that the boys with no secular education (chassidic style) no chol past age 10 sort of thing say can learn better than those with substantial secular education who go to yeshivah at a much later age after high school. Some can, some can't but if you surveyed like with like intelligence wise, there is no advantage in no secular studies.
Some relevant comments regarding what's "part of the discussion".
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/natan-seems-completely-unaware-of/comment/11859829
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/natan-seems-completely-unaware-of/comment/11869274
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/natan-seems-completely-unaware-of/comment/11869394
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/natan-seems-completely-unaware-of/comment/11911794
I'll let Dovid argue it out with you though, I have already done my service!
There are many problems. The one I am referring to is science. Do you not agree that science has a cooling affect? Do you not agree that thinking the world is billions of years old has a cooling affect on the idea that Hashem is running every aspect of the world intimately? That is what I am referring to. Yes, there other cooling affects, the יצר הרע has many tools, but not the ones I am discussing.
No I don't agree. You haven't presented a single iota of proof. It is perefectly possible to believe the world is billions of years old and still believe Hashem is running every aspect of the world intimately (per the Rishonim who says he does, some rishonim do not say he runs EVERY aspect of the wold initmately, Moreh Nevuchim, Sefer Hachinuch, the Ra'ah, Ramchal, the Ramak in Shiur Komah, the Sefarno (Vayikro 13,47), Rabbeinu Bachyah on Ki Yadativ - but we digress).
"...a lot of the questions fall away immediately..."
Do explain, in whatever language you like (I am fluent in English, Hebrew, Yiddish and Yeshivish) what questions fall away with your thesis and how.
As I wrote, it's not a language barrier. It's unfortunate that you've never experienced anything to which these expressions mean anything, but that is what you would be missing if you missed the point. Spending a four hour seder without interruption a few times in your life, with the understanding that you are learning Torah Hashem Yisborach would be a great start to learning this language.
With risk of being too classic, the problem with the word "red" to the blind person is not the language; it is that he has no experience with red to understand that expression.
I learnt in kollel for 10 years, drinking the kool-aid just like you. But eventually you realise how fake and hypocritical that world is, apart from a relatively few yechidi segulah. They chase money just like everyone else despite all the claims to ruchniyis. And once you look at the non kollel branch of chareidi society, it's shocking how they preach virtue but ultimately its all walking the walk and talking the talk (especially gossiping about yenem's money). The corruption and how a few gevirim run the show is disgraceful.
"...how fake and hypocritical that world is, apart from a relatively few yechidi segulah."
Let's rephrase: ...how hard the world is, and therefore only a few yechidei segulah keep their heads over water all the time.
You paint chareidim in a terrible light, I also know all these people you talk about, but they are not what chareidim stand for. they are the bottom half and don't represent our views. I am not discussing individual people but the hashkafa which we espouse. The hashkafa is solid.
Lehavdil, to quote CS Lewis, “When we Christians behave badly, or fail to behave well, we are making Christianity unbelievable to the outside world.”
How do you know the hashkofo is solid? Maybe the modox hashkofo is solid, but you only focus on the 'bottom half' of modox society in your criticism? Wayward individuals who don't represent true modoxy?
Have you thought about things deeply, not just the yeshivish kool-aid?
I really will discuss this in the next post, can we wait to discuss it then?
Because the discussion here, and in other posts, is rarely about activities of MO people, rather their beliefs and the actions, statements and articles from their leaders.
Comparing long glamorous sheitels to a statement of Rabbi Riskin is unfair. Compare Rabbi Riskin's articles to those of Rav Shteinman, and the long glamorous sheitel to the long glamorous hair of Teaneck. If you must discuss gutter issues.
Many would believe Rav Herschel shachter is a better representation than Rav Riskin.
Teaneck? It's Lakewood man.
This blog is not about Modox leadership. Straw man.
The point is chareidim claim to be the best of the best. Hence giving themselves the right to be the moral critics of everyone else. As shown by this blog.
When that is simply not the case. As shown by the glamarous sheitels, the violence in gur, and all that goes with it.
And the only counter argument is that 'that is not the discussion here' which is of course untrue.
Says it all really.
Yes, there are a lot of problems, this word is full of challenges, but that doesn't make it less true. This is sort of the topic of the next post...
I'm sorry you've had such an awful experience, dealing with the wrong people, but this shouldn't cloud reality.