You may as well ban Test and test and others who show up. You give them a platform. These people are dishonest trolls at best. Do you see how much time is wasted on his retard games? They exist to make you spin in circles. I would not be surprised if Slifkin himself sockpuppets here.
The entire time I commented at the RJ blog, my hope was to inspire the blogger to improve in even a tiny way, such as ending his gaslighting posts, which are unbecoming of the man he imagines himself to be. Speak tochacha in a manner that the recipient might hear. Well, he's bombastic and insulting. I did inspire him to ban me. Not what I wanted or aimed for, but acceptable. Neither he nor his sycophants could separate the posturing from the content. That I was banned was obviously a message to me from above that it was time to stop. Anyway, I am not interested in the same pointless engagement with retards here, entertaining as it can be to read sometimes.
I've learnt the sugyoh. Slikin presents mekor after mekor. Look at his latest post from today. It is you who are unable to defend the position, hence your insults.
Just like the rov who was mateh ner on shabbos and promised a chatos sheminah becuase he did not heed chazal's guidlines, what is happening in the charedi world is clear. Hardly a day goes by without another accusation (yes I know, they are only accusations) of fraud is some form or other. The vast majority of that society is boosted by benefits, not always obtained in the most kosher way. Exactly what chazal warned about, over and over again.
And I am chareidi and learnt in kollel for many years. I know exactly what goes on. The difference is I made sure my learning was broader than shulchan oruch and gemoroh.
Where is your formal point by point rebuttal of that article? Where is your source that chazal preffered torah learning over poverty and destitution?
You see you are deliberately vague. A kollel can be full of gevirim (including those well supported) and a kollel can be full of destitute poverty stricken aniyim. They are both 'kollellim' but they are not treated the samw by chazal.
I have. They are all kvetched to refer to today's kollel system. You equate a kollellnlk to a talmid chochom. Some are, some are not.
Especially in Israel where many are in kollel so as not to be in the army.
The minyan factories are full of kollell people. You don't find modox minyan factories. In my town there are more shiurim offered in the modox shul than in the chareidi shuls. Even on friday night, where many chareidim battel away at a tisch, its easier than a hard tosfos after all isn't it?
You seem to believe in a very binary world were one is either a kollel talmid chochom or am ha'aretz. To the limited extent that exists it is precisely in chareidi kehillos were pretty much the only torah learning after being a kid is gemoroh. Which means somebody who cannot learn gemoroh well , gives up and has nothing. That is a feature of the chareidi system. But its hidden because somebody who looks heimish in their ill fitting clothing (why can't they make any effort to look respectable for torah) is assumed to be learned. But it isn’t the case. Many can walk the walk and talk the talk and are skilled in sounding as if they know what they are talking about. But a very low percentage of kollelniks are actuallt talmidei chachochim.
I learnt in kollel for many years. I know what goes on.
Do you always like your own comments? Tell me, why did the Amshinover light menorah at 4.30am? Is that not worse than modox also playing around with d'rabbonnons? Why do chassidim battel away Friday night at a tich, watching a rebbe eat carrots, rather than learning torah? Why is that ok? Its pretty modern as in similar to a rave (I have spoken to BTs who tell me meron on lag b'omer is basically a rave). What is the source for that in rishonim and real acharonim?
Actually, I liked his comment, not hgl. So it seems that not only can't you read text, you can't even understand how to read some extremely dumbed down internet blog likes.
Really? You mean Like Briskers and rebbes? The modox shuls around here are full to capacity. And anyway davening b'yechidus bizmano is halackly fine. Davening after zeman b'minyan is NOT. But we know chareidim cherry pick their halachik sources. Anything they want to be matir, you can find a source. When the modox use obscure sources to justify their practices, objection. But when chareidim use equally obscure sources to justify theirs, its fine and heimish. Take a look in sefer minhag yisroel torah which was written to justify chassidish deviations from halochoh. The source is always ultimately some obscure rebbe.
You are obviously living in a fantasy world if you think modox are fastidious minyan goers who toil over Tosafos on Friday night. These people can't even keep Shabbos or Taharas Mishpacha properly, they support LGBTQ, 40%+ of their kids go OTD, and all you have is complaining about that Amshinover zmanim and tishes, lol. Is it possible that there are one or two modox congregations that are somewhat more Shomrei Torah than the majority of them? Sure, anything is technically POSSIBLE, but highly, HIGHLY unlikely! Far more likely you are just BSing.
Classis yeshivish. Just like the response 'but the goyim do it to' when chareidim are never far from fraud. You don't get it. Chareidim pride themselves on being a million times more authentic, more holy, more religious, more ruchniyos and less gashmiyos than everybody else.
Are minyan factories more holy? Is watching the rebbe eat carrots more religious? Is chareidim never being far from fraud, welfare benefit or other types of fraud more pietous? Swindling governments were ever possible? Are chareidim less megusham than everybody else? Don't get that impression from Lakewood. Do the long glamarous sheitels show more ruchniyos.? Look at ads in chareidi magazines. Far more megusham than the modox onces.
Once the hat and clothes and heimish look is removed, the vast majority of chareidim are no different from anyone else. Its all a big walk the walk and talk the talk.
I have a lot to say but here's the problem. I don't know if you're an intelligent guy capable of a productive conversation or some random internet troll whose smartest comment they can muster basically amounts to 'mooo'. Your comment here does not leave me that inspired. Be well.
Yep. If you can't attack the argument attach the arguer. Very yeshivish. You also conveniently confuse modox with non-kollel.
Again, please provide clear sources that one should chose kollel and destitution over being a ba'al habos who is not an am haretz, is kovie ittim, goes to shiurim, knows halochoh relevant to daily life etc.
The fact that today the chinuch system may not be geared up to produce such a person is of course a failure of the system but it does not alter the fact that there is no source.
The reason I was attacking the arguer is because said arguer seems totally incapable of READING my comments and put a lot of words into my mouth. I referred to you to my comments on Natan's blog where I was simply pointing out that despite what Natan thinks, Kollel is permissable, and if the alternative is being an am Ha'aretz, even preferrable. That's all. I never said all Charedim are saints or all MODOX are ignorant Nidda bo'elators. So instead of continuing to engage with someone who I can assume will be further mischaracterizing my words and not sticking to the point, I politely hinted to you that you don't seem to be an intelligent debater. Comprende?
bottom line - Slifkin's article was all about how chazal did not aprove of destitution and kollel learning. You claim he is all wrong. Yet you have failed to provide a single mekor applicable to today's kollell society. What it the mekor that two chaps who really want to learn b'chavrusoh should do so, even if it means they will be destitute and have to really on tzedokoh. Because all a kollel is a set of people learning b'chavrusoh. Because the vast majority are not dayonim, not rabbonim, not melamdim, not shochtim,.
You may as well ban Test and test and others who show up. You give them a platform. These people are dishonest trolls at best. Do you see how much time is wasted on his retard games? They exist to make you spin in circles. I would not be surprised if Slifkin himself sockpuppets here.
The entire time I commented at the RJ blog, my hope was to inspire the blogger to improve in even a tiny way, such as ending his gaslighting posts, which are unbecoming of the man he imagines himself to be. Speak tochacha in a manner that the recipient might hear. Well, he's bombastic and insulting. I did inspire him to ban me. Not what I wanted or aimed for, but acceptable. Neither he nor his sycophants could separate the posturing from the content. That I was banned was obviously a message to me from above that it was time to stop. Anyway, I am not interested in the same pointless engagement with retards here, entertaining as it can be to read sometimes.
I've learnt the sugyoh. Slikin presents mekor after mekor. Look at his latest post from today. It is you who are unable to defend the position, hence your insults.
Just like the rov who was mateh ner on shabbos and promised a chatos sheminah becuase he did not heed chazal's guidlines, what is happening in the charedi world is clear. Hardly a day goes by without another accusation (yes I know, they are only accusations) of fraud is some form or other. The vast majority of that society is boosted by benefits, not always obtained in the most kosher way. Exactly what chazal warned about, over and over again.
And I am chareidi and learnt in kollel for many years. I know exactly what goes on. The difference is I made sure my learning was broader than shulchan oruch and gemoroh.
Where is your formal point by point rebuttal of that article? Where is your source that chazal preffered torah learning over poverty and destitution?
You see you are deliberately vague. A kollel can be full of gevirim (including those well supported) and a kollel can be full of destitute poverty stricken aniyim. They are both 'kollellim' but they are not treated the samw by chazal.
See my comments in the above linked post for more information!
I have. They are all kvetched to refer to today's kollel system. You equate a kollellnlk to a talmid chochom. Some are, some are not.
Especially in Israel where many are in kollel so as not to be in the army.
The minyan factories are full of kollell people. You don't find modox minyan factories. In my town there are more shiurim offered in the modox shul than in the chareidi shuls. Even on friday night, where many chareidim battel away at a tisch, its easier than a hard tosfos after all isn't it?
You seem to believe in a very binary world were one is either a kollel talmid chochom or am ha'aretz. To the limited extent that exists it is precisely in chareidi kehillos were pretty much the only torah learning after being a kid is gemoroh. Which means somebody who cannot learn gemoroh well , gives up and has nothing. That is a feature of the chareidi system. But its hidden because somebody who looks heimish in their ill fitting clothing (why can't they make any effort to look respectable for torah) is assumed to be learned. But it isn’t the case. Many can walk the walk and talk the talk and are skilled in sounding as if they know what they are talking about. But a very low percentage of kollelniks are actuallt talmidei chachochim.
I learnt in kollel for many years. I know what goes on.
You don't find modox minyan factories because they don't go to minyan, lol
Do you always like your own comments? Tell me, why did the Amshinover light menorah at 4.30am? Is that not worse than modox also playing around with d'rabbonnons? Why do chassidim battel away Friday night at a tich, watching a rebbe eat carrots, rather than learning torah? Why is that ok? Its pretty modern as in similar to a rave (I have spoken to BTs who tell me meron on lag b'omer is basically a rave). What is the source for that in rishonim and real acharonim?
Actually, I liked his comment, not hgl. So it seems that not only can't you read text, you can't even understand how to read some extremely dumbed down internet blog likes.
Really? You mean Like Briskers and rebbes? The modox shuls around here are full to capacity. And anyway davening b'yechidus bizmano is halackly fine. Davening after zeman b'minyan is NOT. But we know chareidim cherry pick their halachik sources. Anything they want to be matir, you can find a source. When the modox use obscure sources to justify their practices, objection. But when chareidim use equally obscure sources to justify theirs, its fine and heimish. Take a look in sefer minhag yisroel torah which was written to justify chassidish deviations from halochoh. The source is always ultimately some obscure rebbe.
You are obviously living in a fantasy world if you think modox are fastidious minyan goers who toil over Tosafos on Friday night. These people can't even keep Shabbos or Taharas Mishpacha properly, they support LGBTQ, 40%+ of their kids go OTD, and all you have is complaining about that Amshinover zmanim and tishes, lol. Is it possible that there are one or two modox congregations that are somewhat more Shomrei Torah than the majority of them? Sure, anything is technically POSSIBLE, but highly, HIGHLY unlikely! Far more likely you are just BSing.
Classis yeshivish. Just like the response 'but the goyim do it to' when chareidim are never far from fraud. You don't get it. Chareidim pride themselves on being a million times more authentic, more holy, more religious, more ruchniyos and less gashmiyos than everybody else.
Are minyan factories more holy? Is watching the rebbe eat carrots more religious? Is chareidim never being far from fraud, welfare benefit or other types of fraud more pietous? Swindling governments were ever possible? Are chareidim less megusham than everybody else? Don't get that impression from Lakewood. Do the long glamarous sheitels show more ruchniyos.? Look at ads in chareidi magazines. Far more megusham than the modox onces.
Once the hat and clothes and heimish look is removed, the vast majority of chareidim are no different from anyone else. Its all a big walk the walk and talk the talk.
Davening b'yechidus bizmano is b'dieved. Unless you're a girl.
I have a lot to say but here's the problem. I don't know if you're an intelligent guy capable of a productive conversation or some random internet troll whose smartest comment they can muster basically amounts to 'mooo'. Your comment here does not leave me that inspired. Be well.
Yep. If you can't attack the argument attach the arguer. Very yeshivish. You also conveniently confuse modox with non-kollel.
Again, please provide clear sources that one should chose kollel and destitution over being a ba'al habos who is not an am haretz, is kovie ittim, goes to shiurim, knows halochoh relevant to daily life etc.
The fact that today the chinuch system may not be geared up to produce such a person is of course a failure of the system but it does not alter the fact that there is no source.
The reason I was attacking the arguer is because said arguer seems totally incapable of READING my comments and put a lot of words into my mouth. I referred to you to my comments on Natan's blog where I was simply pointing out that despite what Natan thinks, Kollel is permissable, and if the alternative is being an am Ha'aretz, even preferrable. That's all. I never said all Charedim are saints or all MODOX are ignorant Nidda bo'elators. So instead of continuing to engage with someone who I can assume will be further mischaracterizing my words and not sticking to the point, I politely hinted to you that you don't seem to be an intelligent debater. Comprende?
bottom line - Slifkin's article was all about how chazal did not aprove of destitution and kollel learning. You claim he is all wrong. Yet you have failed to provide a single mekor applicable to today's kollell society. What it the mekor that two chaps who really want to learn b'chavrusoh should do so, even if it means they will be destitute and have to really on tzedokoh. Because all a kollel is a set of people learning b'chavrusoh. Because the vast majority are not dayonim, not rabbonim, not melamdim, not shochtim,.