The issue isn't that learning protects, no need for an army.
The issue is of how to run a state. No state wants every single person to fight in the army, so they choose according to various criteria. One of those criteria is, 'what does society lose by placing him on the front?'
If the person's job was selling earthquake insurance, designing the sleek look of a new car, third bass guitar in the Hod Hasharon Philharmonic, or throwing a ball into a net, we have better uses for him at the front.
If he would be learning Torah, we have better uses for him in the Beis Hamedrash.
Yes, if everyone was learning Torah, we would need to find a different criteria. But right now, enough people are sports announcers, makeup artists for movie stars, animal museum curators, professional 6 star chefs and other useless professions. When we arrive at a world of people learning, we can discuss matters again.
If it were true that "The army, which is supposed to be the protector of the State, is in fact a cesspool of lewdness and chilul Shabbos." - and this immoral action is putting the State at risk or reducing the protection of the state, wouldn't the logical response to send thousands of Yeshiva students to the army to increase the number of religious units which would make the army more effective.
As the many Hesder units prove, there is no problem keeping Mitzvot, including Tziniot, a high standard of kashrut, Tfilla B'Tzibur, and Kove'a Itim L'Torah.
The fact that not all units encourage this is because very hew Haredim enlist.
Think of the positive influence these Bochrom could have on the army and according to your opinion the security of the state if they served in the army.
This is a practical question. If it were possible to enlist those who are not so strong in learning, but have high levels of Yiras Shamayim, in a way that avoided all the obvious pitfalls, then perhaps that would be universally agreed upon. I think the Satan is in the details.
The Hesder units prove nothing. What is the attrition rate of the Hesder units? More or less than that of Yeshivos?
And more importantly, how many of those that graduate Hesder end up being serious learners for the rest of their lives? (I am not asking if they attend Kollel. I am asking if they learn around their schedules)
Sending the bochurim to the risks of the army for the possible benefit for others is not very smart. Keep them in Yeshivos and their influence can be much better when they are older.
If studying torah is such a physical protection why the second the bombs start falling in the south of Israel, numerous torah learners relocate northwards? In a time of heightened alert why do chareidim insist on extra security being supplied to them? Why did they insist on special gas marks that could cater for beards?
For whatever reason Chareidim themselves don't live on the basis those gemorrohs. So they can't call on them as an excuse.
Well in that case, the whole mimrah has zero application for practical living. Effectively chareidim are in the same pot with everybody else and you will need to come up with another explanation as to why they don't feel the need to serve and protect the country. Hodro koshye l'duchto.
I think I can clear up some confusion for you. No one is suggesting that the Torah learning of your average (or even extraordinary) Charedi Bochur has the ability to provide him protection without the need for any Hishtadlus. Why, even a Tzadick of the caliber of Yaakov Avinu had to make use of Hishtadlus. This is not a knock on the Torah, nor on its ability to guard. This is a commentary on the limitations of humanity. We simply do not learn Torah on a level where we are purely receptacles for Torah's light. This is also why we do Hishtadlus in all parts of our life, despite the Mitzvah and utility of Bitachon. This does not mean that Bitachon does not work, or prayer does not work. It means due to the exile and standing of the Jewish People, there is also a need for creating a vessel for Hashem's Bracha. Now, we also do not always understand Hashem's ways, particular in during times of concealment like Galus, and therefore there is a standing question of Tzadick V'Ra Lo (No, the Kofrim did not come up with that question on their own.) But, with all the prefatory clauses, there is absolute truth to the idea that Torah protects, that Tefilla and Bitachon work, and to the fact that if the Jews are acting immoral there are consequences.
Now, your question seems to be, that if the learning of Chareidim is not a sufficient cause for the protection of the Jewish people, then it must not be a necessary cause. This is an obvious flaw in your argument. Once that flaw is revealed, the above essay should be easier for you to understand. The essay was not arguing for an abolition of the Army, and to just set up Batei Midrashim along the border. Nor, was it arguing that during a terrorist attack, a Bochur should whip out a Reb Chaim and start learning it. Rather, it was a rightful criticism of the denial of any efficacy of the Torah learning of the Chareidim (something that is in explicit contradiction to the opinion of our Holy Sages, but then again, we are discussing a Slifkin post, so what else is new), and an over emphasis of the virtue of the vessel that is the Israeli Army.
Look in Peirush HaGra to Megillas Esther (ג', ז ד"ה הפיל פור) and in the Ha'aros of Harav Nobel there; accordingly, there can be a person who's deserving of protection in his own right, but can still be affected by the מזל כללי. (In all honesty, I'm not sure that the tzushtel is 100% watertight; I'm curious what the oilam has to say!)
Because, Test, "many tried and failed" applies to Charedim as much as to anyone. The difference is, they are still faithful, while you aren't.
In any case, I don't know about insisting on special gas masks. Charedim said they wouldn't shave their beards for the masks. That's not the same thing. And the opposite of what you claim may be true.
It's your choice to twist my words into something I certainly did not say. You paint very broad brush strokes. I don't know that any of it is true at all. Even if true, they are likely singular instances amplified through media coverage.
I don't understand the contradiction. Torah protects but its like a vaccine I am assuming you believe in them) it works often, but if it doesn't- for whatever gods reason is, we need another medicine.
Honestly I know its Purim, but does anybody have any brains? Whatever reason you come up with, it means that in practice the torah does not protect, so hodroh kashyoh l'duchah. Chareidi learning does not protect. So there must be anothet reason.
Who says it doesn't protect? The only way to find out would be to stop all learning and then see if all safety in the world stays the same. I doubt it would. All I said is that just because it doesn't always protect it doesn't mean its useless, and chareidim feel that learning in general will have a greater impact then practical strategies, even though they would like that as well. There is no inconsistency there. "chareidi learning does not protect"- I guess MODOX learning does huh.
The issue isn't that learning protects, no need for an army.
The issue is of how to run a state. No state wants every single person to fight in the army, so they choose according to various criteria. One of those criteria is, 'what does society lose by placing him on the front?'
If the person's job was selling earthquake insurance, designing the sleek look of a new car, third bass guitar in the Hod Hasharon Philharmonic, or throwing a ball into a net, we have better uses for him at the front.
If he would be learning Torah, we have better uses for him in the Beis Hamedrash.
Yes, if everyone was learning Torah, we would need to find a different criteria. But right now, enough people are sports announcers, makeup artists for movie stars, animal museum curators, professional 6 star chefs and other useless professions. When we arrive at a world of people learning, we can discuss matters again.
I don't understand
If it were true that "The army, which is supposed to be the protector of the State, is in fact a cesspool of lewdness and chilul Shabbos." - and this immoral action is putting the State at risk or reducing the protection of the state, wouldn't the logical response to send thousands of Yeshiva students to the army to increase the number of religious units which would make the army more effective.
As the many Hesder units prove, there is no problem keeping Mitzvot, including Tziniot, a high standard of kashrut, Tfilla B'Tzibur, and Kove'a Itim L'Torah.
The fact that not all units encourage this is because very hew Haredim enlist.
Think of the positive influence these Bochrom could have on the army and according to your opinion the security of the state if they served in the army.
This is a practical question. If it were possible to enlist those who are not so strong in learning, but have high levels of Yiras Shamayim, in a way that avoided all the obvious pitfalls, then perhaps that would be universally agreed upon. I think the Satan is in the details.
The Hesder units prove nothing. What is the attrition rate of the Hesder units? More or less than that of Yeshivos?
And more importantly, how many of those that graduate Hesder end up being serious learners for the rest of their lives? (I am not asking if they attend Kollel. I am asking if they learn around their schedules)
Sending the bochurim to the risks of the army for the possible benefit for others is not very smart. Keep them in Yeshivos and their influence can be much better when they are older.
You will no doubt appreciate this fine example of Modox scholarship.
https://www.thetorah.com/article/seeing-doublets-a-source-critical-reading-of-megillat-esther
That whole site is filled with Purim Torah.
As is this site. States so mefurash.
If studying torah is such a physical protection why the second the bombs start falling in the south of Israel, numerous torah learners relocate northwards? In a time of heightened alert why do chareidim insist on extra security being supplied to them? Why did they insist on special gas marks that could cater for beards?
For whatever reason Chareidim themselves don't live on the basis those gemorrohs. So they can't call on them as an excuse.
B'hadi hutza loki kirba (B"K).
Well in that case, the whole mimrah has zero application for practical living. Effectively chareidim are in the same pot with everybody else and you will need to come up with another explanation as to why they don't feel the need to serve and protect the country. Hodro koshye l'duchto.
I think I can clear up some confusion for you. No one is suggesting that the Torah learning of your average (or even extraordinary) Charedi Bochur has the ability to provide him protection without the need for any Hishtadlus. Why, even a Tzadick of the caliber of Yaakov Avinu had to make use of Hishtadlus. This is not a knock on the Torah, nor on its ability to guard. This is a commentary on the limitations of humanity. We simply do not learn Torah on a level where we are purely receptacles for Torah's light. This is also why we do Hishtadlus in all parts of our life, despite the Mitzvah and utility of Bitachon. This does not mean that Bitachon does not work, or prayer does not work. It means due to the exile and standing of the Jewish People, there is also a need for creating a vessel for Hashem's Bracha. Now, we also do not always understand Hashem's ways, particular in during times of concealment like Galus, and therefore there is a standing question of Tzadick V'Ra Lo (No, the Kofrim did not come up with that question on their own.) But, with all the prefatory clauses, there is absolute truth to the idea that Torah protects, that Tefilla and Bitachon work, and to the fact that if the Jews are acting immoral there are consequences.
Now, your question seems to be, that if the learning of Chareidim is not a sufficient cause for the protection of the Jewish people, then it must not be a necessary cause. This is an obvious flaw in your argument. Once that flaw is revealed, the above essay should be easier for you to understand. The essay was not arguing for an abolition of the Army, and to just set up Batei Midrashim along the border. Nor, was it arguing that during a terrorist attack, a Bochur should whip out a Reb Chaim and start learning it. Rather, it was a rightful criticism of the denial of any efficacy of the Torah learning of the Chareidim (something that is in explicit contradiction to the opinion of our Holy Sages, but then again, we are discussing a Slifkin post, so what else is new), and an over emphasis of the virtue of the vessel that is the Israeli Army.
I hope I have helped clear your confusion.
Look in Peirush HaGra to Megillas Esther (ג', ז ד"ה הפיל פור) and in the Ha'aros of Harav Nobel there; accordingly, there can be a person who's deserving of protection in his own right, but can still be affected by the מזל כללי. (In all honesty, I'm not sure that the tzushtel is 100% watertight; I'm curious what the oilam has to say!)
Because, Test, "many tried and failed" applies to Charedim as much as to anyone. The difference is, they are still faithful, while you aren't.
In any case, I don't know about insisting on special gas masks. Charedim said they wouldn't shave their beards for the masks. That's not the same thing. And the opposite of what you claim may be true.
In other words, for whatever reason, torah no longer protects. See my comment to mecharker. In which case, hodroh kudhyoh l'duchtah.
It's your choice to twist my words into something I certainly did not say. You paint very broad brush strokes. I don't know that any of it is true at all. Even if true, they are likely singular instances amplified through media coverage.
I don't understand the contradiction. Torah protects but its like a vaccine I am assuming you believe in them) it works often, but if it doesn't- for whatever gods reason is, we need another medicine.
Honestly I know its Purim, but does anybody have any brains? Whatever reason you come up with, it means that in practice the torah does not protect, so hodroh kashyoh l'duchah. Chareidi learning does not protect. So there must be anothet reason.
Who says it doesn't protect? The only way to find out would be to stop all learning and then see if all safety in the world stays the same. I doubt it would. All I said is that just because it doesn't always protect it doesn't mean its useless, and chareidim feel that learning in general will have a greater impact then practical strategies, even though they would like that as well. There is no inconsistency there. "chareidi learning does not protect"- I guess MODOX learning does huh.
A freilichen purim.
Chareidim themselves don't believe it protects. See above. When the bombs start falling they move.