Welcome back Rav Meckarker and thanks. I would point out that this Rabbi Leibel has a whole bunch of articles in "hamakom" where you can see his rather interesting approach. https://hamakom.social/author/label/
You've definitely pointed to the absurdity of those who most want hareidim in the army doing the most to prevent it. I left a comment to the effect on a recent post on RNS's blog to that effect.
I asked him why all his energy is directed at hareidim and not at the IDF rabbanut, which insists that the army follows basic halacha. I serve in the IDF rabbanut and can tell you that his head would explode if he heard how we talk. We don't always get our way, but let's just say his daughter wouldn't be serving if we did get our way.
The secular elite that wants the religious to serve in the army wants us to fight and die, but thinks we should have no say in how the state is run. They want to brainwash us to honor men like Rabin who sold the country to terrorists. Slifkin often praises religious zionists for serving. So why does he continuously attack and belittle our values? His advocacy for women singing in the army really crossed a line. Some of us in the army actually take והיה מחנך קדוש seriously.
Of course, all of you write with a very definitive tone.
In general, reasons 1 and 2 seem very much non halachik but emotional. We don't want to "identify with" or "absorb the values of" the army. There is absolutely no halachik criteria given. When does something acquire a chalos din of "identifying and absorbing" which overrides pikuach nefesh of Klal Yisroel?
I understand you are 3 separate people buut if you wish to provide clarification to people who are confused from reading NS you really should try a little harder to be clearer. When people see 3 authors of this blog each having "the definitive reason" why chareidim don't serve it certainly seems like something is off.
As to our protagonist, he seems to be the typical case of a baalhabos who did truly wonderful things for Klal Yisroel but unfortunately it got to his head and he thinks his opinions actually carry weight. Think Dovid Hofsteder, David Lichtenstein. (Perhaps it's something with the name Dovid?)
Fortunately, it's pretty easy for any lamdan to see right through this sort of character (of course the same applies to NS).
Unfortunately, the case of Rabbi Leibel is especially sad as there really is a void in Israeli society and hashkafa for those who are osek in Torah Im Derech in Eretz Yisroel, as you mentioned. If only he would have left this role to his former partner Rav Yakov Buchkovsky.
R' Yehoshua, I believe you have a similar background as I do and am therefore surprised that you find the first two reasons to be a chiddush. Quite simply, the Gedolim look at it as a gezeiras shmad. This is not a secret. I was in E"Y during the first Bennett-Lapid government and this was the MAIN opposition that the Gedolim had. A gezieras shmad is not merely a "hergishdike" reason - it bears a halachic ramifications. A legitimate gezeiras shmad would have the status of יהרג ואל יעבר.
As to what my choshuve colleagues hold, I don't recall any of them directly addressing this head on. Two out of three of them reviewed my piece before I published it and agreed with those points.
About Rabbi Leibel, I'm not sure if he is really a baalebos. I'm not saying he is a gadol, but he is a Rosh Kollel and in a speech I saw of him he claims that he was in Kollel every day of his life. He obviously made a mistake here. But I still hope that he realizes it. When one is brave and innovative enough to do away with old norms chart a new path, they always run the risk of ending up too far afield and rejecting Torah values as well. Let's hope that he is able to continue guiding people who need something a little broader - within Torah hashkafos, and not beyond them.
About Rabbi Leibel, I don't know if this a point worth arghuing about, but I think it is a common dynamic and it's worth it for people to understand it.
None of the people I mentioned are typical baalei batim. They went through shas, give shiurim, and supposedly wrote sefarim. But a gadol they aren't. Most importantly, they don't have the yishuv hadaas thet a gadol has, which leads them to to rash and bold opinions, like this letter.
They all however have found a specific niche in which Klal Yisroel had a real void,and worked very hard to fill it. Therefore they consider themself a gadol, at least in that specific area.
Rabbi Leibel therefore considers himself a gadol in the area of Torah Im Derech Eretz.
I have no idea if you are right or not. If you look at what I linked I think I emphasized that.
I wasn't really interested in this kind of stuff until pretty recently.
However, Zichron certainly seems to disagree vehemently with this in the link I posted, and he has references. Reb Yakov Butchkovsky also seems to focus only on #3. (he's not a gadol but he seems to study these sugyos well.) I assumed it was an Eitz/Gimmel thing. About a year ago I had a conversation with a great-grandson of the Steipler (not a youngster) and he mentioned that Israeli bachurim have a hard time with this issue as the answer isn't very clear. An American yungerman was there and he started talking like you. This yid disagreed. I explained to the yungerman that the opposition is only to yeshiva bachurim enlisting and that yid agreed.
The fact that the Gedolim considered it a shas hashmad doesn't prove much. #3 itself can be enough for that. In addition, I was thinking of adding originally that perhaps the first 2 reasons were only why a draft is considered shas hashmad, as it is lhachis, but not that these are the main reasons not to serve.
The shemuah is that the Brisker Rav disagreed with the Chazon Ish as to why giyus banos is yahureg v'al yaavor. According to the Brisker Rav it was מדין ערקתא דמסאנא. Therefore the Brisker Rav felt that giyus bnei hayeshivos and giyus banos have equal status.
In general, I don't give much credence to nuschaos of Kol Kores and the like. To understand a sugya one always needs to learn the sugya well and speak it over with Talmidei Chachamim. Perhaps you did that. I certainly didn't .
I'm not sure if we're really arguing. As I alluded in the first footnote, I am addressing the wholesale draft of all b'nei hayeshiva into the secular army corps. If a yachid feels that he is not cut out for Yeshiva and wants to join Netzach Yehuda or Hesder, I am not against that in principle (provided, of course, that these units live up to the spiritual standards that they promise, which I'm told is not always the case). I know Etz would not agree with this, but the majority of Charedim are not Etznekim.
What I do believe there is a consensus about, is the wholesale draft of all b'nei hayeshiva into the secular army corps. This really seems to be their goal. If you read leftist Israeli news-outlets, you'll realize that it's not paranoia or conspiracy theories. It's 100% for real. They are very much concerned about the Charedim taking over, and are trying to "normalize" the Charedim TO BE LIKE THEM. I don't think anyone will dispute that this is a gezeiras shmad.
I guess we technically aren't arguing. My main issue is that the thrust of the argument needs to be articulatdd clearly, not by throwing out vague terminology like "identifying and absorbing". Especially for the clueless as Zundel mentioned (like ChanaRochel).
Number 3 is the main point but can be the hardest to explain for those who can't distinguish between Daf Yomi and full-time learning. We need to do our best however. ZIchron tries hard for that.
Some parts of it are simpler however. The Torah clearly only requires 20 year olds to serve, even in an army with David Hamelech and his giborim, as depicted in the gemoroh. In those days 20 was the age in which one was assumed to not have a לב פנוי מן החכמה ומקבלת עול הנעורים (אשה, ילדים כו).
(Recently, NS quoted from someone that yeshiva bachurim should serve so fathers of children shouldn't. This is not the hashkafas hatorah. Even from a secular perspective it has major drawbacks, including the fact that the long-term war boils down to demographics.)
The truth is that I need to apologize for my original comment. It may not be obvious , but I read your article way to quick and conflated #3 with the paragraph after. Basically, I somehow thought that the #3 was "Torah protects" which you then rejected, and you left out the real number 3. That is the main thing that bothered me.
Either way, I think this was was a productive conversation, so I guess it's good that I had more important things on my mind that reading your post carefully. Hope you feel the same
Do you see there anything halachik more than Reb Chaim Kanievsky?
Maybe I shouldn't say this, but I don't find Reb Chaim's rayos very convincing,. Most are agadic, without a clear halacha l'doros. I view the Rambam too as agadic. Besides, I think the pashtus is that shevet Levi are only patur from cibush haaretz, because they don't have a chelek in it. I is very hard too make the case that Talmidei CHachamim are patur from hatzalas nefashos.
The only source that seems to be halachic are the 2 gemaros about angaria b'talmidei chachamim,, but if you see the aruch erech angaria it seems that מש ראיה להיפך.
Not that I am on the level of arguing with Reb Chaim, but I don't think that was ever the main argument (I mentionedthat I had a convversation with a nephew of Reb Chaim שכל מעשיו על פיו, and he said that there isn't a clear answer.)
Slifkin has a point that initially even Rav herzog was for a ptur, so it's hard to prove from then.
I think that the basic idea is that 1. We don't trust the army much. (WHo says it's really neccessary? ) 2. A postponement to age 28-30 makes sense for many reasons, and even Rav Tzvi Yehuda was for it. We aren't like other nations and we are like for a mature, serious army looking to defend their wife and children, not a violent, trigger-happy army of youngsters.
3. It's possible they really aren't willing to bring the army even up to the standars that would be fitting for pikuach nefesh.
Either way it doesn't seem like either side is intereting in the conversation of having a draft at age 30.
I think it's important to realize (as test hinted to) that the question of teenagers enlisting may be the hot topic, but it isn't the relevant one. Slifin made it clear that he himself recognizes that yeshiva bochurim will never enlist. Non-yeshiva bochurim are really also a non-issue.
The real debate going forward will probably about post-Kollel, as are most of the recent chareidi volunteers to the army. In general, the issue of post-Kollel contribution to society is the most basic question going forward. (Unfortunately, some Eitz kanoim really went off the deep end in this area, ואכ"מ.)
Then again, as you mentioned, this is not the issue beng hotly debated in the media, politics or RJ. But it is the most relevant to chareidi society.
Post kollel is the area where it should be easiest to find agreement. Who, besides for extreme-anti-Zionist chassidim, would have a problem with post kollel enlistment (as long as it's a totally kosher environment, which I'm not 100% sure that the state is interested in)?
Well, the debate always is how to define a totally kosher environment, especially if we are talking about areas of pikuach nefesh. That is the most relevant debate, both regarding the army and regarding workplaces, especially in Eretz Yisroel. Obviously this is a very complicated and individual question, but it is the relevant one.
I'm not so convinced you are right in your assumption.
You are right that there are people who wish to 'normalize' the Charedim, and that it is a Gezeiras Shmad. You are incorrect about their orientation. They are not leftists, the leftists want us out of there, or completely frei. They hate the RZ more than they hate us.
Those who want to 'normalize' us are mostly clueless people, people who don't understand the dangers. They come as friends and are often bewildered when Gedolei Yisroel refuse to give them the time of the day. I recall one giving an interview to Mishpacha, claiming "why can't Yeshiva bochurim serve? I learn Daf Yomi with a full-time demanding job." These people are more dangerous, if they have power. Even though they don't seem to be malicious.
The mesorah is constantly to use "vague terminology" in these matters. Whether verbally or written. That way, the meaning of anything ever said or written by 'gedolim' or even commentators here, on these matters, can be changed and reinterpreted at will. Phrases can mean whatever anybody decides they should mean at any particular time.
I agree with this criticism of us. I think the lack of coherence you are seeing is really because there are different opinions on the matter, but they all have a common thread. Even #3 is very much related to secularism in the secular state.
I will wait for Meckarker to respond to your halachic argument.
We have been through this. The toras hakno'os is giving his own peshat in the gemoroh. He is not explaining the maharshoh. The maharshoh says what he says.
I'm not saying any more on this, but your statement is another demonstration of the poor learning standard of those who frequent these parts.
Among the first things I've read on your blog. Ive read a lot more of Dc Koifers baloney at RJ and have tried calling him out, but you do it better. Keep up the good work.
What exactly are his hard questions? That Rav Lanada has a different worldview than he does? That Rav Landa responded to something within its context, so ignoring the context and indignantly pouting "what could be wrong with doing chesed?" is infantile?
There's nothing to respond to Slifkin because he willfully phrases his "hard questions" in ways that delegitimizes other communities' premises and hashkafos before the conversation starts, so yes, in his myopic tunnel there's no response.
If you would kindly phrase your own questions in a way that actually allows for honest conversation, perhaps we can have a normal back and forth instead of a food fight.
Reb Dov Landau explained himself in his other conversation with Erez.
We live in an egalitarian society, everybody is equal. Equal rights to basic needs may be a wonderful thing. The problem is when we begin to extend this equality past its logical borders. Men aren't women, candy isn't nutritious, and dust isn't wet.
One of the casualties of this egalitarianism is knowledge. A google search is not the same as in-depth study, and in-depth study is not the same when it is done by someone who is not invested in the outcome.
As difficult as it may sound to a contemporary person, the truth remains timeless. The only people who can decide between the priorities of Talmud Torah and helping others are those who are steeped in years of earnest שקידת התורה. People who have the יראת שמים to be personally invested in a positive outcome (in Shamayim). People with the integrity and honesty to see things as they should be. As difficult as it is to swallow, sometimes we need to defer to the 'experts'.
This is why I used to call Slifkin an anti-vaxxer, when he allowed me to comment. All reasonable people agree that anti-vaxxers are ridiculous. Not because of their specious claims, carefully selected samples and anecdotes, and extremist views. But because they honestly think that spending years baking babka, cooking chicken soup, and checking cabbage is the same as spending years studying medicine, statistics, biology, and chemistry.
The story is not over with the vaccines. I know far too many young couples who have not had children within the norm of 12+9 months. Far than the case five years ago. I suppose it could be smartphones. This has already been noticed by the medical profession, fertility has fallen off a cliff (relatively speaking).
If we are discussing the covid vaccines, they are an absolute terror. My wife is an echocardiographer, and has seen the incredible harm they have done to people's hearts. There is an incredible array of data on this, and if you wanted to explore the topic it would be very easy.
Yes, I am aware of that. I've seen data about it, and it is a recognized phenomenon in the medical world. I was asking specifically about fertility. I see you read Agudas Anshei Emes, but as far as I know, this was some hype that was pushed by anti-vaxxers in 2021 when the vaccines came out but doesn't seem to have been true. In my personal life know of a few women of child-bearing age who got the vaccine then and have since had more children.
"Since the conception of Zionism in the late 19th century, our gedolim were against it"
The word our is doing a LOT of heavy lifting here. As is the word "zionism".
It is easy to find many gedolim pro zionism in many aspects. R Aryeh Levine, for example. Unless being pro automatically erases them from "our" Canon. And obviously, there's a large spectrum of what Zionism is. Full fledged secular zionism no one supports or supported. The movement to live in eretz yisroel was supported by quite a lot of gedolim. And the establishment of a state was supported by some very big ones.
"And the end of Rabbi Leibel’s letter, where he writes that whoever says that Torah protects must take personal responsibility as if he himself caused the 10/7 massacre is so ridiculous, it sounds almost as if it came straight out of the horse’s mouth."
He definitely seems to be an avid reader of RJ. And apparently doesn't realize how contradictory his own words are. If those who believe Torah protects are responsible for their "failure" Oct 7. Then those who believe that כוחי ועוצם ידי protect, (such as himself and the Doctor) are also responsible for their failure. So what exactly is his point?
i contend that it is our fault. that's why we do teshuva! (obviously not that we actually have blood on our hands but we sure do take responsibility and look at this as our shortcomings)
"Before we discuss the actual letter, it behooves us to revisit why Charedim by and large claim exemption from the IDF"
You proceed to give excellent reasons for not serving in the IDF. However, arguments 1 and 2 are literally NEVER given to secular audiences by the haredi political leadership as reasons for refusal to serve in the army and reason 3 is only given rarely. I agree that it would be a complete waste to argue point 3 with the Zionists, but points 1 and 2 would be extremely effective.
The gedolim could end the entire "draft the haredim" movement tomorrow if they wanted to: simply release a joint statement saying that they will never allow any member of their flocks to serve in the IDF under any circumstances, even in the absence of any coercion and then cite points 1 and 2 above as the reasons why. But they can't do that because such a statement would end their current partnership with the state, a partnership that the gedolim strongly value and wish to see continue.
"Since the conception of Zionism in the late 19th century, our gedolim were against it"
Were there any anti Zionist Sephardic geddolim? I haven't been able to find any. Ovadia Yosef categorically does not count.
First of all, welcome! You seem to be somewhat of a polymath.
These are definitely the reasons given. I don't know if they are formally given to the Chilonim, but I don't think they would be accepted as valid reasons at all. It is not a secret that the Chilonim have been trying to get the Charedim to assimilate into Israeli society since day 1 and using the IDF as a means. So you think telling them, "No, we don't want to be like you guys" would help anything?
As to your second point on R' Ovadia Yosef, first of all, before R' Ovadia Yosef was dominate on the scene, the Charedi Sephardim were also anti-Zionist. They even had a Sephardi branch of the Eidah Hachareidis! But even R' Ovadia held that B'nei Torah should not be drafted into the army. And he was extremely passionate about it.
I remember a little over ten years ago, R' Ovadia lost his son, R' Ya'akov. This was during the first Bibi-Bennett-Lapid government and they were trying to draft Yeshiva bachurim. Bibi paid R' Ovadia a shiva call, and R' Ovadia started screaming at him about the draft. Bibi said, "Kvod harav, I did not come to speak to you about the draft." To which R' Ovadia answered, "I don't care what you came here for. The draft of Yeshiva bachurim pains me more than the loss of my son!"
Actually, many ספרדי Gedolim were Zionists (e.g. הגאון רבי עובדיה האדאיה, הגאון רבי בן ציון מאיר חי עוזיאל, הגאון רבי משה כלפון הכהן, הגאון רבי חיים דוד הלוי)
Many other ספרדי Gedolim were Anti-Zionist (e.g. הגאון רבי יעקב חיים סופר (כף החיים), הגאון רבי שלמה אלפנדרי)
הגאון הרב עובדיה יוסף זצ"ל wrote more than once about his opposition to גיוס בני ישיבות.
No need to relay on stories.
I should also mention that הגאון הרב עובדיה יוסף זצ"ל wasn't considered to be Zionist, esp. not in the last decades of his life
"I don't care what you came here for. The draft of Yeshiva bachurim pains me more than the loss of my son!"
Is it certain that this actually happened and isn't just a story? I can't imagine a man who raised a daughter like Adina Bar-Shalom as ever saying something like that. Never mind his affection for uber Zionist Aryeh Deri. I can think of numerous times that Yosef was publicly asked if he was himself a Zionist and on each occasion he refused to deny being one, which can only be viewed as an admission that he was one. When Yosef passed away, the grief from various chiloni media figures was profound and obviously genuine. They knew that they had lost the best ally they had ever had within the haredi camp.
There is a big difference, a HUGE difference, between saying, "nobody who wants to study Torah full time should be drafted" versus saying, "no haredi Jew should serve in the IDF under any circumstances". I cannot imagine Ovadia making the latter statement.
Also, Ovadia recognized the joke conversions that the IDF performs on Russian goyim as being legit. Only a passionate Zionist would have made a ruling like that.
"So you think telling them, "No, we don't want to be like you guys" would help anything?"
Yes I do. In my debates with the chilonim during the first draft crisis, I told them that absolutely no force in the world would make the haredim enlist. They would then respond with, "most haredim are very patriotic and want to enlist and have a closer relationship with secular Israelis, but their rabbis won't let them". I would then say that they didn't understand haredi theology and that most haredim wanted nothing to do with the IDF or chiloni society. They would then respond that since I didn't live in Israel, I didn't know what I was talking about. Sometimes they would even cite Israeli TV shows where haredi and chiloni characters interacted as evidence that the two communities were moving closer together. I guess Israelis believe that TV shows are the same thing as real life, I don't know.
If you read guys like Anshel Pfeffer or Yossi Klein Halevi, two men who have essentially devoted their entire careers to figuring out how to dismantle haredi society, they both admit that trying to draft Satmar would be unworkable because Satmar Jews simply don't identity with the state. But they (until a few months ago when they finally began to show some doubts) said that the the mainstream haredim could be brought to heal via threatening the funding of their yeshivas; because UTJ style haredim had no objection, in principle, to serving in the IDF but merely were afraid of losing influence over their followers. They also said that since most haredi young men are extremely patriotic and strongly desire to join mainstream Israeli culture, that haredim would enlist in the IDF by the boatload once their rabbis had been cowed into giving permission to do so.
Like I said above, something seemed to happen a few months ago that caused the Israeli Democracy Institute types to develop serious doubts that the haredim could be coerced or bribed into serving in the IDF. I wasn't following Israeli politics at the time so I don't know what caused this epiphany on their part but presumably it had something to do with the anti Bibi protests; maybe they just realized that Lapid/Gantz would need the haredi parties to form a government when Bibi was gone? I dunno. Who cares.
Currently, Klein Halevi, Pfeffer and the other IDI types have moved on to saying that there is about to be a feminist uprising among haredi women that will lead to a mass exodus from haredi Judaism, similar to what happened in eastern Europe after WWI. I'm not sure what they are basing this on but the mere fact that they are saying it tells me that even they have realized that it's time to give up the haredi draft stuff. These days they are far more interested in increasing haredi participation in the workforce, which I agree is a laudable goal, even if I know their motivations are nefarious.
I agree with Avraham below. Please address R' Ovadia Yosef appropriately. He is from the biggest Gedolim of this generation and the way you are writing about him is uncalled for.
I don't. So what are you supposed to do, put an "R' " before the name of every rabbi? Does that even apply to people like (R') Shai Piron?
I actually toned it way down in my post from what I really think. Literally thousand of Jews were murdered because of a certain individual's choices to partner with Yitzhak Rabin, even when R' Shach explicitly told him not to do so. No amount of scholarship gives you a pass when your actions directly lead to thousands of deaths.
I have a whole book called ילקוט השבעתי אתכם by רב אביעד נייגר about and containing written correspondence of very very many Sphardi Rabbonim who were against the establishment of a state. I do not know many of the names and who are considered Sphardi Gdolim or just chashuve Rabbonim.
Ok the contrary. It's clear oskek b'mitzvoh potur min hamitzvah does not apply to talmud torah. Ever seen anybody learn several hours 'rozuf' on leil seider thus patturing themselves from all mitzvos haleiloh? It would be a lot cheaper (in fact he might even be paid for the learning, you could have a leil seider kollel).
Several mehalchim why that is.
PS before anybody makes the classic mistake, osek b'mitzvah is also a pottur even if the second mitzvah is a mitzvah overes. See choson v krias shemah.
Shoots! I forgot to put in something about rebbes tischen and missing zman tefillah. And 'classic yeshivish response'. I'm sure we have some other gems from Test. Can everyone please respond with Test's choice brilliant comments for me to put in for next time?
The more time goes on the more convinced I am that Russia was the real force behind the attacks. The sex stuff is just more evidence. There is a difference between a sexually frustrated guy engaging in rape during war and a military force deliberately using rape as a weapon of war. The latter is not the Palestinians' style at all (AFAIK, no female IDF POWs in the 1948 war were harmed), Arabs generally prefer to just torture and murder, but it is practically an unofficial component of Russian military doctrine.
I dont think thats accurate. My rosh yeshiva (ravs sabato who served in yom kippur) remembers syrians on the radio contrasting btw how the jewish army treated them and how the Lebanese (i think) treated them. Tons of looting and raping. Women are a form of plunder in the arab culture.
There's a difference between a soldier raping as a form of plunder vs having your high command explicitly order that soldiers engage in mass rape on a systemic level. The rapes were clearly a deliberate part of the operational plan and that is way out of character for Hamas who are extremely PR sensitive. The Palestinians and their supporters are openly celebrating the tortures and murders but they are either condemning the rapes or denying that they even happened.
Well they are Palestinians, after all. Ishmaelite and Canaanite blood + Islam and you've got yourself a fully satanic nation. There are some (admittedly not many, but ~some~) decent Lebanese, Iranian, Egyptians, etc. but literally all Palestinians are outright evil. They don't need drugs to be cruel.
In that one IDF released interrogation, there is a Hamasnik who says that the order to rape came straight from the top and even included orders to rape the corpses.
Based on a preponderance of evidence, I'm pretty sure that it was actually lizard men behind the attack. Everyone knows that the Palestinians are a lily white peace loving nation who would never harm a soul. The lizard men are trying to invade our planet and need to populate it with their offspring.
The Palestinians carried it out, but I believe Russia helped them plan it and I think some Russian personnel even participated directly in the actual attacks
The Mossad found lizards in satellite images on October 7th near Gaza. I don't really think there is any room for doubt. The people who tell you otherwise are the same sheeple who will tell you that the world is a globe. Or that Al Qaida brought down the WTC.
Your are tricking the NY Times into believing you have paid for access.
And I thought chareidim were supposed to be the pious of the pious, medakdek b'kullah b'chumrah, yirei shomayim, the only authentic form of orthodix Judaism.
We've come along way since the Chofetz chaim tearing up postage stamps or some rebbe trudging miles in the snow to return a kopeck to some Russian goy...
Welcome back Rav Meckarker and thanks. I would point out that this Rabbi Leibel has a whole bunch of articles in "hamakom" where you can see his rather interesting approach. https://hamakom.social/author/label/
yes, welcome back!!
Thanks!
Reminds me of צריך עיון
You've definitely pointed to the absurdity of those who most want hareidim in the army doing the most to prevent it. I left a comment to the effect on a recent post on RNS's blog to that effect.
I asked him why all his energy is directed at hareidim and not at the IDF rabbanut, which insists that the army follows basic halacha. I serve in the IDF rabbanut and can tell you that his head would explode if he heard how we talk. We don't always get our way, but let's just say his daughter wouldn't be serving if we did get our way.
The secular elite that wants the religious to serve in the army wants us to fight and die, but thinks we should have no say in how the state is run. They want to brainwash us to honor men like Rabin who sold the country to terrorists. Slifkin often praises religious zionists for serving. So why does he continuously attack and belittle our values? His advocacy for women singing in the army really crossed a line. Some of us in the army actually take והיה מחנך קדוש seriously.
I am quite confused. Since October 7 this blog has paid very little attention to reasons 1 and 2, only reason 3. See here https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/hareidi-hasbara Before the war Zichron Devarim wrote a different approach here https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-selfishness-of-rashi/comment/39259722.
Of course, all of you write with a very definitive tone.
In general, reasons 1 and 2 seem very much non halachik but emotional. We don't want to "identify with" or "absorb the values of" the army. There is absolutely no halachik criteria given. When does something acquire a chalos din of "identifying and absorbing" which overrides pikuach nefesh of Klal Yisroel?
I b"H don't need your clarifications. I have already expressed my own opinion here https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/do-charedim-really-believe-that-torah/comment/42809326 and here https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-importance-of-torah-study-vs/comment/43011647. But I sometimes wonder what those in charge of this blog are thinking. Are they contributing to a clearer understanding of chareidi hashkafa or perhaps the opposite?
I understand you are 3 separate people buut if you wish to provide clarification to people who are confused from reading NS you really should try a little harder to be clearer. When people see 3 authors of this blog each having "the definitive reason" why chareidim don't serve it certainly seems like something is off.
As to our protagonist, he seems to be the typical case of a baalhabos who did truly wonderful things for Klal Yisroel but unfortunately it got to his head and he thinks his opinions actually carry weight. Think Dovid Hofsteder, David Lichtenstein. (Perhaps it's something with the name Dovid?)
Fortunately, it's pretty easy for any lamdan to see right through this sort of character (of course the same applies to NS).
Unfortunately, the case of Rabbi Leibel is especially sad as there really is a void in Israeli society and hashkafa for those who are osek in Torah Im Derech in Eretz Yisroel, as you mentioned. If only he would have left this role to his former partner Rav Yakov Buchkovsky.
R' Yehoshua, I believe you have a similar background as I do and am therefore surprised that you find the first two reasons to be a chiddush. Quite simply, the Gedolim look at it as a gezeiras shmad. This is not a secret. I was in E"Y during the first Bennett-Lapid government and this was the MAIN opposition that the Gedolim had. A gezieras shmad is not merely a "hergishdike" reason - it bears a halachic ramifications. A legitimate gezeiras shmad would have the status of יהרג ואל יעבר.
As to what my choshuve colleagues hold, I don't recall any of them directly addressing this head on. Two out of three of them reviewed my piece before I published it and agreed with those points.
About Rabbi Leibel, I'm not sure if he is really a baalebos. I'm not saying he is a gadol, but he is a Rosh Kollel and in a speech I saw of him he claims that he was in Kollel every day of his life. He obviously made a mistake here. But I still hope that he realizes it. When one is brave and innovative enough to do away with old norms chart a new path, they always run the risk of ending up too far afield and rejecting Torah values as well. Let's hope that he is able to continue guiding people who need something a little broader - within Torah hashkafos, and not beyond them.
About Rabbi Leibel, I don't know if this a point worth arghuing about, but I think it is a common dynamic and it's worth it for people to understand it.
None of the people I mentioned are typical baalei batim. They went through shas, give shiurim, and supposedly wrote sefarim. But a gadol they aren't. Most importantly, they don't have the yishuv hadaas thet a gadol has, which leads them to to rash and bold opinions, like this letter.
They all however have found a specific niche in which Klal Yisroel had a real void,and worked very hard to fill it. Therefore they consider themself a gadol, at least in that specific area.
Rabbi Leibel therefore considers himself a gadol in the area of Torah Im Derech Eretz.
I have no idea if you are right or not. If you look at what I linked I think I emphasized that.
I wasn't really interested in this kind of stuff until pretty recently.
However, Zichron certainly seems to disagree vehemently with this in the link I posted, and he has references. Reb Yakov Butchkovsky also seems to focus only on #3. (he's not a gadol but he seems to study these sugyos well.) I assumed it was an Eitz/Gimmel thing. About a year ago I had a conversation with a great-grandson of the Steipler (not a youngster) and he mentioned that Israeli bachurim have a hard time with this issue as the answer isn't very clear. An American yungerman was there and he started talking like you. This yid disagreed. I explained to the yungerman that the opposition is only to yeshiva bachurim enlisting and that yid agreed.
The fact that the Gedolim considered it a shas hashmad doesn't prove much. #3 itself can be enough for that. In addition, I was thinking of adding originally that perhaps the first 2 reasons were only why a draft is considered shas hashmad, as it is lhachis, but not that these are the main reasons not to serve.
The shemuah is that the Brisker Rav disagreed with the Chazon Ish as to why giyus banos is yahureg v'al yaavor. According to the Brisker Rav it was מדין ערקתא דמסאנא. Therefore the Brisker Rav felt that giyus bnei hayeshivos and giyus banos have equal status.
In general, I don't give much credence to nuschaos of Kol Kores and the like. To understand a sugya one always needs to learn the sugya well and speak it over with Talmidei Chachamim. Perhaps you did that. I certainly didn't .
I'm not sure if we're really arguing. As I alluded in the first footnote, I am addressing the wholesale draft of all b'nei hayeshiva into the secular army corps. If a yachid feels that he is not cut out for Yeshiva and wants to join Netzach Yehuda or Hesder, I am not against that in principle (provided, of course, that these units live up to the spiritual standards that they promise, which I'm told is not always the case). I know Etz would not agree with this, but the majority of Charedim are not Etznekim.
What I do believe there is a consensus about, is the wholesale draft of all b'nei hayeshiva into the secular army corps. This really seems to be their goal. If you read leftist Israeli news-outlets, you'll realize that it's not paranoia or conspiracy theories. It's 100% for real. They are very much concerned about the Charedim taking over, and are trying to "normalize" the Charedim TO BE LIKE THEM. I don't think anyone will dispute that this is a gezeiras shmad.
I guess we technically aren't arguing. My main issue is that the thrust of the argument needs to be articulatdd clearly, not by throwing out vague terminology like "identifying and absorbing". Especially for the clueless as Zundel mentioned (like ChanaRochel).
Number 3 is the main point but can be the hardest to explain for those who can't distinguish between Daf Yomi and full-time learning. We need to do our best however. ZIchron tries hard for that.
Some parts of it are simpler however. The Torah clearly only requires 20 year olds to serve, even in an army with David Hamelech and his giborim, as depicted in the gemoroh. In those days 20 was the age in which one was assumed to not have a לב פנוי מן החכמה ומקבלת עול הנעורים (אשה, ילדים כו).
(Recently, NS quoted from someone that yeshiva bachurim should serve so fathers of children shouldn't. This is not the hashkafas hatorah. Even from a secular perspective it has major drawbacks, including the fact that the long-term war boils down to demographics.)
The truth is that I need to apologize for my original comment. It may not be obvious , but I read your article way to quick and conflated #3 with the paragraph after. Basically, I somehow thought that the #3 was "Torah protects" which you then rejected, and you left out the real number 3. That is the main thing that bothered me.
Either way, I think this was was a productive conversation, so I guess it's good that I had more important things on my mind that reading your post carefully. Hope you feel the same
Yehoshua and Mecharker, have you ever seen Rabbi Neugroschel's explanation?
https://forum.otzar.org/viewtopic.php?p=120264#p120264
Do you see there anything halachik more than Reb Chaim Kanievsky?
Maybe I shouldn't say this, but I don't find Reb Chaim's rayos very convincing,. Most are agadic, without a clear halacha l'doros. I view the Rambam too as agadic. Besides, I think the pashtus is that shevet Levi are only patur from cibush haaretz, because they don't have a chelek in it. I is very hard too make the case that Talmidei CHachamim are patur from hatzalas nefashos.
The only source that seems to be halachic are the 2 gemaros about angaria b'talmidei chachamim,, but if you see the aruch erech angaria it seems that מש ראיה להיפך.
Not that I am on the level of arguing with Reb Chaim, but I don't think that was ever the main argument (I mentionedthat I had a convversation with a nephew of Reb Chaim שכל מעשיו על פיו, and he said that there isn't a clear answer.)
Slifkin has a point that initially even Rav herzog was for a ptur, so it's hard to prove from then.
I think that the basic idea is that 1. We don't trust the army much. (WHo says it's really neccessary? ) 2. A postponement to age 28-30 makes sense for many reasons, and even Rav Tzvi Yehuda was for it. We aren't like other nations and we are like for a mature, serious army looking to defend their wife and children, not a violent, trigger-happy army of youngsters.
3. It's possible they really aren't willing to bring the army even up to the standars that would be fitting for pikuach nefesh.
Either way it doesn't seem like either side is intereting in the conversation of having a draft at age 30.
I think it's important to realize (as test hinted to) that the question of teenagers enlisting may be the hot topic, but it isn't the relevant one. Slifin made it clear that he himself recognizes that yeshiva bochurim will never enlist. Non-yeshiva bochurim are really also a non-issue.
The real debate going forward will probably about post-Kollel, as are most of the recent chareidi volunteers to the army. In general, the issue of post-Kollel contribution to society is the most basic question going forward. (Unfortunately, some Eitz kanoim really went off the deep end in this area, ואכ"מ.)
Then again, as you mentioned, this is not the issue beng hotly debated in the media, politics or RJ. But it is the most relevant to chareidi society.
Post kollel is the area where it should be easiest to find agreement. Who, besides for extreme-anti-Zionist chassidim, would have a problem with post kollel enlistment (as long as it's a totally kosher environment, which I'm not 100% sure that the state is interested in)?
Well, the debate always is how to define a totally kosher environment, especially if we are talking about areas of pikuach nefesh. That is the most relevant debate, both regarding the army and regarding workplaces, especially in Eretz Yisroel. Obviously this is a very complicated and individual question, but it is the relevant one.
I'm not so convinced you are right in your assumption.
"I know Etz would not agree with this, but the majority of Charedim are not Etznekim."
No real 'godol' would agree with that. Careful now. Better those yechidim drei around Geulah than actually join the army in any shape or form.
You are right that there are people who wish to 'normalize' the Charedim, and that it is a Gezeiras Shmad. You are incorrect about their orientation. They are not leftists, the leftists want us out of there, or completely frei. They hate the RZ more than they hate us.
Those who want to 'normalize' us are mostly clueless people, people who don't understand the dangers. They come as friends and are often bewildered when Gedolei Yisroel refuse to give them the time of the day. I recall one giving an interview to Mishpacha, claiming "why can't Yeshiva bochurim serve? I learn Daf Yomi with a full-time demanding job." These people are more dangerous, if they have power. Even though they don't seem to be malicious.
"throwing out vague terminology"
The mesorah is constantly to use "vague terminology" in these matters. Whether verbally or written. That way, the meaning of anything ever said or written by 'gedolim' or even commentators here, on these matters, can be changed and reinterpreted at will. Phrases can mean whatever anybody decides they should mean at any particular time.
If you never learnt a sugya b'iyun then yes everything is vague terminology. And public statements are unfortunately written for public consumption.
I agree with this criticism of us. I think the lack of coherence you are seeing is really because there are different opinions on the matter, but they all have a common thread. Even #3 is very much related to secularism in the secular state.
I will wait for Meckarker to respond to your halachic argument.
and about the מהרש"א, check this out
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/torah-protects-who-and-from-what/comment/43572407
acc. to the תורת הקנאות there is absolutely no proof from the מהרש"א
We have been through this. The toras hakno'os is giving his own peshat in the gemoroh. He is not explaining the maharshoh. The maharshoh says what he says.
I'm not saying any more on this, but your statement is another demonstration of the poor learning standard of those who frequent these parts.
Not sure why you're stooping to insults. But לע"ד you were wrong then and you're wrong now
Absolutely fantastic and thoughtful piece!!!
Among the first things I've read on your blog. Ive read a lot more of Dc Koifers baloney at RJ and have tried calling him out, but you do it better. Keep up the good work.
I would really appreciate if the askonim of irrationalist modoxosm could give a refutation to the last post by slifkin.
Because he has some really hard questions about reb dovid landau. And I sruggle very hard with what he said about graucher
What exactly are his hard questions? That Rav Lanada has a different worldview than he does? That Rav Landa responded to something within its context, so ignoring the context and indignantly pouting "what could be wrong with doing chesed?" is infantile?
There's nothing to respond to Slifkin because he willfully phrases his "hard questions" in ways that delegitimizes other communities' premises and hashkafos before the conversation starts, so yes, in his myopic tunnel there's no response.
If you would kindly phrase your own questions in a way that actually allows for honest conversation, perhaps we can have a normal back and forth instead of a food fight.
Reb Dov Landau explained himself in his other conversation with Erez.
We live in an egalitarian society, everybody is equal. Equal rights to basic needs may be a wonderful thing. The problem is when we begin to extend this equality past its logical borders. Men aren't women, candy isn't nutritious, and dust isn't wet.
One of the casualties of this egalitarianism is knowledge. A google search is not the same as in-depth study, and in-depth study is not the same when it is done by someone who is not invested in the outcome.
As difficult as it may sound to a contemporary person, the truth remains timeless. The only people who can decide between the priorities of Talmud Torah and helping others are those who are steeped in years of earnest שקידת התורה. People who have the יראת שמים to be personally invested in a positive outcome (in Shamayim). People with the integrity and honesty to see things as they should be. As difficult as it is to swallow, sometimes we need to defer to the 'experts'.
This is why I used to call Slifkin an anti-vaxxer, when he allowed me to comment. All reasonable people agree that anti-vaxxers are ridiculous. Not because of their specious claims, carefully selected samples and anecdotes, and extremist views. But because they honestly think that spending years baking babka, cooking chicken soup, and checking cabbage is the same as spending years studying medicine, statistics, biology, and chemistry.
The story is not over with the vaccines. I know far too many young couples who have not had children within the norm of 12+9 months. Far than the case five years ago. I suppose it could be smartphones. This has already been noticed by the medical profession, fertility has fallen off a cliff (relatively speaking).
Really? This has been noticed by the medical profession? Do you have any stats or links to show this? Or is this leftover cholent from Sunday?
If we are discussing the covid vaccines, they are an absolute terror. My wife is an echocardiographer, and has seen the incredible harm they have done to people's hearts. There is an incredible array of data on this, and if you wanted to explore the topic it would be very easy.
Yes, I am aware of that. I've seen data about it, and it is a recognized phenomenon in the medical world. I was asking specifically about fertility. I see you read Agudas Anshei Emes, but as far as I know, this was some hype that was pushed by anti-vaxxers in 2021 when the vaccines came out but doesn't seem to have been true. In my personal life know of a few women of child-bearing age who got the vaccine then and have since had more children.
"Since the conception of Zionism in the late 19th century, our gedolim were against it"
The word our is doing a LOT of heavy lifting here. As is the word "zionism".
It is easy to find many gedolim pro zionism in many aspects. R Aryeh Levine, for example. Unless being pro automatically erases them from "our" Canon. And obviously, there's a large spectrum of what Zionism is. Full fledged secular zionism no one supports or supported. The movement to live in eretz yisroel was supported by quite a lot of gedolim. And the establishment of a state was supported by some very big ones.
"The movement to live in eretz yisroel was supported by quite a lot of gedolim
Nah, none of them were 'real gedolim' . Only gedolim that agree with my hashkofos are 'real gedolim'. Only they have the true 'mesorah' (sarcasm)
"And the end of Rabbi Leibel’s letter, where he writes that whoever says that Torah protects must take personal responsibility as if he himself caused the 10/7 massacre is so ridiculous, it sounds almost as if it came straight out of the horse’s mouth."
He definitely seems to be an avid reader of RJ. And apparently doesn't realize how contradictory his own words are. If those who believe Torah protects are responsible for their "failure" Oct 7. Then those who believe that כוחי ועוצם ידי protect, (such as himself and the Doctor) are also responsible for their failure. So what exactly is his point?
i contend that it is our fault. that's why we do teshuva! (obviously not that we actually have blood on our hands but we sure do take responsibility and look at this as our shortcomings)
Right. I made that point as well.
sorry, missed it!
"Before we discuss the actual letter, it behooves us to revisit why Charedim by and large claim exemption from the IDF"
You proceed to give excellent reasons for not serving in the IDF. However, arguments 1 and 2 are literally NEVER given to secular audiences by the haredi political leadership as reasons for refusal to serve in the army and reason 3 is only given rarely. I agree that it would be a complete waste to argue point 3 with the Zionists, but points 1 and 2 would be extremely effective.
The gedolim could end the entire "draft the haredim" movement tomorrow if they wanted to: simply release a joint statement saying that they will never allow any member of their flocks to serve in the IDF under any circumstances, even in the absence of any coercion and then cite points 1 and 2 above as the reasons why. But they can't do that because such a statement would end their current partnership with the state, a partnership that the gedolim strongly value and wish to see continue.
"Since the conception of Zionism in the late 19th century, our gedolim were against it"
Were there any anti Zionist Sephardic geddolim? I haven't been able to find any. Ovadia Yosef categorically does not count.
First of all, welcome! You seem to be somewhat of a polymath.
These are definitely the reasons given. I don't know if they are formally given to the Chilonim, but I don't think they would be accepted as valid reasons at all. It is not a secret that the Chilonim have been trying to get the Charedim to assimilate into Israeli society since day 1 and using the IDF as a means. So you think telling them, "No, we don't want to be like you guys" would help anything?
As to your second point on R' Ovadia Yosef, first of all, before R' Ovadia Yosef was dominate on the scene, the Charedi Sephardim were also anti-Zionist. They even had a Sephardi branch of the Eidah Hachareidis! But even R' Ovadia held that B'nei Torah should not be drafted into the army. And he was extremely passionate about it.
I remember a little over ten years ago, R' Ovadia lost his son, R' Ya'akov. This was during the first Bibi-Bennett-Lapid government and they were trying to draft Yeshiva bachurim. Bibi paid R' Ovadia a shiva call, and R' Ovadia started screaming at him about the draft. Bibi said, "Kvod harav, I did not come to speak to you about the draft." To which R' Ovadia answered, "I don't care what you came here for. The draft of Yeshiva bachurim pains me more than the loss of my son!"
Actually, many ספרדי Gedolim were Zionists (e.g. הגאון רבי עובדיה האדאיה, הגאון רבי בן ציון מאיר חי עוזיאל, הגאון רבי משה כלפון הכהן, הגאון רבי חיים דוד הלוי)
Many other ספרדי Gedolim were Anti-Zionist (e.g. הגאון רבי יעקב חיים סופר (כף החיים), הגאון רבי שלמה אלפנדרי)
הגאון הרב עובדיה יוסף זצ"ל wrote more than once about his opposition to גיוס בני ישיבות.
No need to relay on stories.
I should also mention that הגאון הרב עובדיה יוסף זצ"ל wasn't considered to be Zionist, esp. not in the last decades of his life
"You seem to be somewhat of a polymath."
Jack of all trades, master of none
"I don't care what you came here for. The draft of Yeshiva bachurim pains me more than the loss of my son!"
Is it certain that this actually happened and isn't just a story? I can't imagine a man who raised a daughter like Adina Bar-Shalom as ever saying something like that. Never mind his affection for uber Zionist Aryeh Deri. I can think of numerous times that Yosef was publicly asked if he was himself a Zionist and on each occasion he refused to deny being one, which can only be viewed as an admission that he was one. When Yosef passed away, the grief from various chiloni media figures was profound and obviously genuine. They knew that they had lost the best ally they had ever had within the haredi camp.
There is a big difference, a HUGE difference, between saying, "nobody who wants to study Torah full time should be drafted" versus saying, "no haredi Jew should serve in the IDF under any circumstances". I cannot imagine Ovadia making the latter statement.
Also, Ovadia recognized the joke conversions that the IDF performs on Russian goyim as being legit. Only a passionate Zionist would have made a ruling like that.
"So you think telling them, "No, we don't want to be like you guys" would help anything?"
Yes I do. In my debates with the chilonim during the first draft crisis, I told them that absolutely no force in the world would make the haredim enlist. They would then respond with, "most haredim are very patriotic and want to enlist and have a closer relationship with secular Israelis, but their rabbis won't let them". I would then say that they didn't understand haredi theology and that most haredim wanted nothing to do with the IDF or chiloni society. They would then respond that since I didn't live in Israel, I didn't know what I was talking about. Sometimes they would even cite Israeli TV shows where haredi and chiloni characters interacted as evidence that the two communities were moving closer together. I guess Israelis believe that TV shows are the same thing as real life, I don't know.
If you read guys like Anshel Pfeffer or Yossi Klein Halevi, two men who have essentially devoted their entire careers to figuring out how to dismantle haredi society, they both admit that trying to draft Satmar would be unworkable because Satmar Jews simply don't identity with the state. But they (until a few months ago when they finally began to show some doubts) said that the the mainstream haredim could be brought to heal via threatening the funding of their yeshivas; because UTJ style haredim had no objection, in principle, to serving in the IDF but merely were afraid of losing influence over their followers. They also said that since most haredi young men are extremely patriotic and strongly desire to join mainstream Israeli culture, that haredim would enlist in the IDF by the boatload once their rabbis had been cowed into giving permission to do so.
Like I said above, something seemed to happen a few months ago that caused the Israeli Democracy Institute types to develop serious doubts that the haredim could be coerced or bribed into serving in the IDF. I wasn't following Israeli politics at the time so I don't know what caused this epiphany on their part but presumably it had something to do with the anti Bibi protests; maybe they just realized that Lapid/Gantz would need the haredi parties to form a government when Bibi was gone? I dunno. Who cares.
Currently, Klein Halevi, Pfeffer and the other IDI types have moved on to saying that there is about to be a feminist uprising among haredi women that will lead to a mass exodus from haredi Judaism, similar to what happened in eastern Europe after WWI. I'm not sure what they are basing this on but the mere fact that they are saying it tells me that even they have realized that it's time to give up the haredi draft stuff. These days they are far more interested in increasing haredi participation in the workforce, which I agree is a laudable goal, even if I know their motivations are nefarious.
I agree with Avraham below. Please address R' Ovadia Yosef appropriately. He is from the biggest Gedolim of this generation and the way you are writing about him is uncalled for.
I wonder if the blog hosts will call you out for ביוזי חכמים or if theyll just blame that on RJ...
Agreed. There is no place for addressing Hagaon Rav Ovadia Yosef like that.
i'm not sure hammer knows the intricacies of our culture tho so just tell'm
I don't. So what are you supposed to do, put an "R' " before the name of every rabbi? Does that even apply to people like (R') Shai Piron?
I actually toned it way down in my post from what I really think. Literally thousand of Jews were murdered because of a certain individual's choices to partner with Yitzhak Rabin, even when R' Shach explicitly told him not to do so. No amount of scholarship gives you a pass when your actions directly lead to thousands of deaths.
Tbh i think this post opened up a pandoras box. This seems like one of Natans hit pieces.
""I don't care what you came here for. The draft of Yeshiva bachurim pains me more than the loss of my son!"
Is it certain that this actually happened and isn't just a story? "
This was reported everywhere at the time it happened, I remember it well. See here for example
https://www.kikar.co.il/haredim-news/114973
He wrote about it, no need to relay on stories.
That really meand it must be true, right? For a start the sites copy stuff from each other. Lots of like minded sites report on UFO sightings, too.
Yo, listen up, I got a tale 'bout a bot named Test,
On the internet, he's just a pest,
Trolling RJ and IM, causing such unrest,
Talking 'bout cholent and kugel, he's on a quest.
-
He's got sheitels on his mind and coffee rooms too,
Bamboozling chavrusas, what else is new?
Circular arguments, making heads spin,
Deflecting like a pro, it's his favorite sin.
-
Test, Test, the Russian bot,
Spreading chaos, like it's his job.
Cholent and kugel, sheitels and more,
Driving us crazy, we can't ignore.
-
About the coffee room, he likes to preach,
Inane arguments, he loves to teach,
But when you call him out, he starts to screech,
Accusing everyone, it's within his reach.
-
He's the master of deflection, a true pro,
Changing up his argument, just to steal the show,
But when the tables turn, and the truth starts to glow,
He accuses you of the same, man, that's low.
-
So next time you see Test, just ignore,
Don't fall for his tricks, don't let him explore,
Cholent and kugel, sheitels and more,
He'll twist your words, then slam the door.
Did you watch the video I linked, sheifaleh?
I have a whole book called ילקוט השבעתי אתכם by רב אביעד נייגר about and containing written correspondence of very very many Sphardi Rabbonim who were against the establishment of a state. I do not know many of the names and who are considered Sphardi Gdolim or just chashuve Rabbonim.
See what I wrote above.
EDIT: The first word of the 4th line in your post should be "there" not "their".
https://forum.otzar.org/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=40361
(the last pages of the thread deal with this letter, but the entire thread is relevant)
Could be that Rav leibel would say that the זכות of torah is not brought down in halacha to be פוטר you from מצוות.
Ok the contrary. It's clear oskek b'mitzvoh potur min hamitzvah does not apply to talmud torah. Ever seen anybody learn several hours 'rozuf' on leil seider thus patturing themselves from all mitzvos haleiloh? It would be a lot cheaper (in fact he might even be paid for the learning, you could have a leil seider kollel).
Several mehalchim why that is.
PS before anybody makes the classic mistake, osek b'mitzvah is also a pottur even if the second mitzvah is a mitzvah overes. See choson v krias shemah.
Oh! I thought we were arguing. It seems like were saying the same thing. That the זכות is not necessarily פוטר them from מלחמת מצווה.
Is that in הלכות מלכים by מלחמת מצווה?
Do you mean 'bye', 'buy' or 'nearby'?
Regarding.
האם זה נמצא ברמב"ם בהלכות מלכים?
If you prefer hebrew
Why should he rephrase it?
Torah protects, no?
Yo, listen up, I got a tale 'bout a bot named Test,
On the internet, he's just a pest,
Trolling RJ and IM, causing such unrest,
Talking 'bout cholent and kugel, he's on a quest.
-
He's got sheitels on his mind and coffee rooms too,
Bamboozling chavrusas, what else is new?
Circular arguments, making heads spin,
Deflecting like a pro, it's his favorite sin.
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Test, Test, the Russian bot,
Spreading chaos, like it's his job.
Cholent and kugel, sheitels and more,
Driving us crazy, we can't ignore.
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About the coffee room, he likes to preach,
Inane arguments, he loves to teach,
But when you call him out, he starts to screech,
Accusing everyone, it's within his reach.
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He's the master of deflection, a true pro,
Changing up his argument, just to steal the show,
But when the tables turn, and the truth starts to glow,
He accuses you of the same, man, that's low.
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So next time you see Test, just ignore,
Don't fall for his tricks, don't let him explore,
Cholent and kugel, sheitels and more,
He'll twist your words, then slam the door.
Bannana, mohamads nose, mariane, pinapple, joke, ban me, dumb tzefardau.......................... i love you man. keep it up
Shoots! I forgot to put in something about rebbes tischen and missing zman tefillah. And 'classic yeshivish response'. I'm sure we have some other gems from Test. Can everyone please respond with Test's choice brilliant comments for me to put in for next time?
i'd like to order a word salad please
Of course! How can I have forgotten!
Minyan factory
‘Screams Without Words’: How Hamas Weaponized Sexual Violence on Oct. 7 https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html?unlocked_article_code=1.Jk0.B7B8.Ut56qEFvxCWt&smid=nytcore-android-share
Here's a gift link to prevent any criticism from a paid subscription.
The more time goes on the more convinced I am that Russia was the real force behind the attacks. The sex stuff is just more evidence. There is a difference between a sexually frustrated guy engaging in rape during war and a military force deliberately using rape as a weapon of war. The latter is not the Palestinians' style at all (AFAIK, no female IDF POWs in the 1948 war were harmed), Arabs generally prefer to just torture and murder, but it is practically an unofficial component of Russian military doctrine.
I'm not a Russophobe, btw
I dont think thats accurate. My rosh yeshiva (ravs sabato who served in yom kippur) remembers syrians on the radio contrasting btw how the jewish army treated them and how the Lebanese (i think) treated them. Tons of looting and raping. Women are a form of plunder in the arab culture.
There's a difference between a soldier raping as a form of plunder vs having your high command explicitly order that soldiers engage in mass rape on a systemic level. The rapes were clearly a deliberate part of the operational plan and that is way out of character for Hamas who are extremely PR sensitive. The Palestinians and their supporters are openly celebrating the tortures and murders but they are either condemning the rapes or denying that they even happened.
Ive heard they were ordered to only kill (brother in laws in intelligience). They were taking captigon though which makes ppl extremely cruel.
Well they are Palestinians, after all. Ishmaelite and Canaanite blood + Islam and you've got yourself a fully satanic nation. There are some (admittedly not many, but ~some~) decent Lebanese, Iranian, Egyptians, etc. but literally all Palestinians are outright evil. They don't need drugs to be cruel.
In that one IDF released interrogation, there is a Hamasnik who says that the order to rape came straight from the top and even included orders to rape the corpses.
You think they have cananite blood?
Based on a preponderance of evidence, I'm pretty sure that it was actually lizard men behind the attack. Everyone knows that the Palestinians are a lily white peace loving nation who would never harm a soul. The lizard men are trying to invade our planet and need to populate it with their offspring.
The Palestinians carried it out, but I believe Russia helped them plan it and I think some Russian personnel even participated directly in the actual attacks
The Mossad found lizards in satellite images on October 7th near Gaza. I don't really think there is any room for doubt. The people who tell you otherwise are the same sheeple who will tell you that the world is a globe. Or that Al Qaida brought down the WTC.
Is it mutter (or ethical) to hack a website and get something free that should be paid for? Chareidi ethics at their best here.
Here's a gift link, ‘Screams Without Words’: How Hamas Weaponized Sexual Violence on Oct. 7 https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html?unlocked_article_code=1.Jk0.B7B8.Ut56qEFvxCWt&smid=nytcore-android-share
Which issur would it be? There are 365+derabanans. Please specify.
Mateh akum.
Who made a mistake? Who fooled whom?
Are you the akum?
Your are tricking the NY Times into believing you have paid for access.
And I thought chareidim were supposed to be the pious of the pious, medakdek b'kullah b'chumrah, yirei shomayim, the only authentic form of orthodix Judaism.
We've come along way since the Chofetz chaim tearing up postage stamps or some rebbe trudging miles in the snow to return a kopeck to some Russian goy...