My biggest problem with his 'shitta' is the assumption that rationalism and mysticism are incompatible. There is nothing inherently irrational whatsoever in believing phenomena exist beyond human understanding/capability of description. It's all bizarre.
Well said. I'll say for myself that REAL rationalism is very attractive for me, as I am a big believer in understanding all concepts in a way that we can relate to things better and get more of an appreciation for Yiddishkait and we don't have to look for the most mystical way to understand things. However, rationalism as a means in itself is worthless, and the product of that is irrationalism. Everything should be for the purpose of getting to the truth, not to sound rational. So rationalism is great, Judaism should be understood and relatable, but when something doesn't make perfect sense or sounds too highfaluting, assuming that it must be wrong is just arrogance and irrational.
You definitely have a point, I don't think people think of it that way though. But you're right that the concept of the universe being inherently logical, which is ridiculous, is the same as saying that Judaism is inherently logical to the human mind, which in many cases its not, since only God has a perfect logic.
It's funny, actually-- among the more outwardly atheistic crowd their insistence that the universe must make sense and fit into the human mind doesn't shtim with their insistence that human life is a cosmic accident and nothing is significant about this world whatsoever-- like, the rationalism can only work if there was a designer who decided to make a mind and a world that fits into it, but why in the world do we need to assume that the Designer would do that? Because that's what fits into their head... so the proof for why it has to fit in their head is because that fits in their head. How... irrational, dare I say?
Dr. Slifkin is simply following the extreme rationalists after the Rambam (who falsely claimed to follow the Rambam) They wrote exactly the same things and mocked everyone else the same way he does.
They had no problem with the fact that their ideology was against what we learn from Torah sh'Bikhtav and Torah she'Be- Al-Pe, because they know better...
Amazing. Rambam says similar in Igeret Teiman, that rationalizing Hashem’s direct hashgacha to nature (in his terms, alignment of planets) is not just wrong and assur, but the reason Hashem increases onesh. And what’s the remedy? Listen to the neviim, listen to our sages. (I’m working on a ‘No, the Rambam didn’t believe that thing you made up” project)
אבל דבר זה דבר איש שאינו יודע לכוון התקון על אמתתו כמו שספרת מכלל דבריו שאמר שאירע מבול מאויר ומעפר ומה שראוי לך לדעת שהדברים האלה וכיוצא בהם שוא וכזב ולא יהיו לך לראיה לפי שתמצאם כתובים בספרים שהמכזב כמו שהוא מכזב בלשונו מכזב בקולמוסו ואין זה נמנע עליו והכסילים הבוערים הם שיעשו אצלם לראיה אמתית הדבר בהיותו כתוב ואין לנו להאמין סברות מפנים האלה אלא מפנים אחרים ודע כי כמו שינצל הסומא בהשענו על הפקח בלכתו אחריו לפי שהוא יודע בעצמו שאין לו עינים שיורהו הדרך הישר וכמו כן שינצל החולה שאינו יודע מחכמות הרפואות בשמעו עצת הרופא שינהיגהו וידריכהו לפי שאינו יודע הדברים הממיתים ולא המחלימים המצילים וישמע לעצתו כל מה שיאמר לו כמו כן ראוי להמון למסור משענתם על הנביאים בעלי העינים האמתיים ודי להם במה שילמדו להם שהסברה הפלונית אמת והסברה הפלונית אינה אמת ואחרי הנביאים החכמים החוקרים והרודפים יומם ולילות הסברות והדעות כדי שידעו איזה מהם אמת ואיזה מהם שוא ואחר הקדמה זאת דע שכל מה שתשמע או שתמצא כתוב מאלו הדברים וכדומה להם הם כולם דברים שאין בהם אמת אבל האומר אותם כסיל או ליצן מהתל או מי שיתכוון לסתור התורה ולהרוס חומותיה הלא תראה עזותם באמרם מבול מאויר ומבול מעפר וכמו כן יוכלו לומר מבול מאש וכל זה אינו אלא נכול ופתוי להטעאת אמנה שהמבול לא היה אלא מקבוץ המים ושלא בא מאת דיין האמת ועל דרך העונש ליושבי הארץ על רוב חטאתם כמו שבאר לנו בספרו הישר המציל אותנו מן הטעות ועל הטענה הזאת לפי סברתם לא נהפכה סדום ובנותיה על כפרם ומעלם כמו שבאר הכתוב (בראשית י"ח כ"א) הכצעקתה הבאה אלי עשו כלה וגומר וכן כל פעל הבא מאת הבורא יתברך בעולם הוא אצלם דבר מחויב מן הקבוצים של כוכבים אלה הם ההקדמות שרצונם להקדים להרוס בהם יהודי הדת ונעשו הפקר ליד תאותם ותשוקת נפשותם הבהמית כמו הבהמות ובנות יענה ובשביל הדעות האלו הזהירנו הבורא יתברך בתורה ואמר שבהיותכם מכעיסים יבאו עליכם פורעניות עקב חטאתכם אם תחשבו שאינם באים עליכם אלא דרך מקרה ושאין סבת הפורענות רוב נאצותכם גם אני אוסיף עליכם מן המקרה ההוא ואכפול אותם עליכם שכן כתוב בתוכחה (ויקרא כ"ו כ"א) ואם תלכו עמי קרי וגו' והלכתי אף אני עמכם בחמת קרי וקרי הוא הדבר שבא שלא בכוונה והוא אומר אם תשימון פורענות דרך מקרה אני אוסיף עליכם מן המקרה ההוא שבע על חטאתיכם וממה שהקדמתי
Verily this is the calculation of an ignorant person, as is evinced by other remarks of his, quoted by you, to the effect that there will be a deluge of air and of dust. It is essential for you to know that these and similar assertions are fabricated and mendacious. Do not consider a statement true because you find it in a book, for the prevaricator is as little restrained with his pen as with his tongue. For the untutored and uninstructed are convinced of the veracity of a statement by the mere fact that it is written; nevertheless its accuracy must be demonstrated in another manner. Remember that a blind person submits to an individual having power of sight for intelligent direction knowing that he lacks the vision to guide him safely; and an ailing person, unskilled in the art of medicine, and uninformed as to matters detrimental to or beneficial for his health, defers to a physician for guidance and obeys him implicitly. Just so is it indispensable for the laity to yield unswervingly to the prophets, who were men of true insight, and to confide in them in respect to matters affecting the truth or the error of a given teaching. Next in importance are the sages who have studied day and night the dogmas and doctrines of our faith and have learned to distinguish between the genuine and the spurious. After this exposition you may trust me that the statements you have previously quoted are inaccurate and this applies equally to similar views which you heard expressed in conversation or met with in books. For the author of such sayings is either ignorant, a mountebank, or seeks to destroy the law and to demolish its bulwarks. Do you perceive the brazenness of these people who assert that there will be a deluge of air, and dust, and fire, in order to deceive and delude others to believe that the Deluge in the time of Noah was merely due to a concentration of water, and was not a Divine punishment for the immorality of the time, as is explicitly stated in Scripture that guides us against error and fallacy. Similarly Sodom, and the other cities were not destroyed because of the unbelief and wickedness of their inhabitants in direct contradiction to the Bible which says, "I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it which is come to me." (Genesis 18:21). Thus whatever happens in this world through Divine intervention, they say is the inevitable consequence of the planetary conjunctions. They have affirmed the truth of their propositions in order to undermine the principles of our religion, and to give free reign to their animal instincts and passions as do the beasts and the ostriches. We were divinely admonished against those views in Scripture to the following effect: "If you rebel against Me so that I bring disaster upon you as a punishment for your misdeeds, but you ascribe your reverses to chance rather than to your guilt, then shall I increase your afflictions and make them more grievous." This is the intent of the verse in the Chapter of Admonition, If you will walk with me 'bekeri' I shall walk with you in the wrath of 'keri'" (Leviticus 26:21, 24). Now "keri" signifies chance, hazard. Scriptures means to say if you regard My chastisement as a fortuitous event, then shall I bring the most severe calamities upon you "sevenfold for your sins." (Leviticus 26:24)
Wow, amazing! I am currently working on a follow up post and putting together many sources from the Rambam where he says the exact opposite of what Natan thinks. Thanks for this one.
I have a spreadsheet with more sources, but it's fairly recent so still adding to it. I shared it with mecharkerbcholoz@gmail.com. Bracha v'hatzalacha!
I find it is very common for atheists and "rationalists" to attempt to use pseudo-statistical arguments, especially Bayes theorem, without having any data at all. I always laugh when that happens. When I dig down a bit, I find that they usually have a very limited understanding of statistics or math in general, which is why they think it is like some smart sciency magic wand they can wave without having data in the first place.
You quote NS as admitting that "he really, really, believes in the Torah’s protection", but in his statements he is careful to only admit that the Torah says it protects. He himself obviously does not believe it because he doesn't believe in the Torah....
There is a natural world where events happen because G-d runs the world that way. Hence we must act in accordance with cause and effect Nature. There is also G-d's special insertion into events. If you don't protect yourself from harm it will or can happen to you.( Guard your heath etc.) . We don't expect miracles i.e. events to happen which are against the natural order,i.e. which G-d creates every moment. Hence the is reward for fulfilling the Torah snd
and punishment for. not.... You cannot exactly correlate these causes and effects. The Rambam believes you must act within the Natural order and failure to do so will bring you harm and His punishment which is usually the natural result of your actions. Protect yourself with an Army and fulfill the Mitzvot, both important. You may have extra protection from learning Torah but don:t count on it. Prayer very important. Don't walk in front of moving cars and expect to be protected. (Maybe you will) That is not the way of Torah.
My biggest problem with his 'shitta' is the assumption that rationalism and mysticism are incompatible. There is nothing inherently irrational whatsoever in believing phenomena exist beyond human understanding/capability of description. It's all bizarre.
Well said. I'll say for myself that REAL rationalism is very attractive for me, as I am a big believer in understanding all concepts in a way that we can relate to things better and get more of an appreciation for Yiddishkait and we don't have to look for the most mystical way to understand things. However, rationalism as a means in itself is worthless, and the product of that is irrationalism. Everything should be for the purpose of getting to the truth, not to sound rational. So rationalism is great, Judaism should be understood and relatable, but when something doesn't make perfect sense or sounds too highfaluting, assuming that it must be wrong is just arrogance and irrational.
The concept of rationality is indeed very correct.
Rationalism is something very different. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalism
,
Wow! Leave the theology out of this for a second. That's just nutty stuff!
You definitely have a point, I don't think people think of it that way though. But you're right that the concept of the universe being inherently logical, which is ridiculous, is the same as saying that Judaism is inherently logical to the human mind, which in many cases its not, since only God has a perfect logic.
It's funny, actually-- among the more outwardly atheistic crowd their insistence that the universe must make sense and fit into the human mind doesn't shtim with their insistence that human life is a cosmic accident and nothing is significant about this world whatsoever-- like, the rationalism can only work if there was a designer who decided to make a mind and a world that fits into it, but why in the world do we need to assume that the Designer would do that? Because that's what fits into their head... so the proof for why it has to fit in their head is because that fits in their head. How... irrational, dare I say?
Absolutely love this post!
Thank you!
Dr. Slifkin is simply following the extreme rationalists after the Rambam (who falsely claimed to follow the Rambam) They wrote exactly the same things and mocked everyone else the same way he does.
They had no problem with the fact that their ideology was against what we learn from Torah sh'Bikhtav and Torah she'Be- Al-Pe, because they know better...
אין כל חדש תחת השמש
Amazing. Rambam says similar in Igeret Teiman, that rationalizing Hashem’s direct hashgacha to nature (in his terms, alignment of planets) is not just wrong and assur, but the reason Hashem increases onesh. And what’s the remedy? Listen to the neviim, listen to our sages. (I’m working on a ‘No, the Rambam didn’t believe that thing you made up” project)
אבל דבר זה דבר איש שאינו יודע לכוון התקון על אמתתו כמו שספרת מכלל דבריו שאמר שאירע מבול מאויר ומעפר ומה שראוי לך לדעת שהדברים האלה וכיוצא בהם שוא וכזב ולא יהיו לך לראיה לפי שתמצאם כתובים בספרים שהמכזב כמו שהוא מכזב בלשונו מכזב בקולמוסו ואין זה נמנע עליו והכסילים הבוערים הם שיעשו אצלם לראיה אמתית הדבר בהיותו כתוב ואין לנו להאמין סברות מפנים האלה אלא מפנים אחרים ודע כי כמו שינצל הסומא בהשענו על הפקח בלכתו אחריו לפי שהוא יודע בעצמו שאין לו עינים שיורהו הדרך הישר וכמו כן שינצל החולה שאינו יודע מחכמות הרפואות בשמעו עצת הרופא שינהיגהו וידריכהו לפי שאינו יודע הדברים הממיתים ולא המחלימים המצילים וישמע לעצתו כל מה שיאמר לו כמו כן ראוי להמון למסור משענתם על הנביאים בעלי העינים האמתיים ודי להם במה שילמדו להם שהסברה הפלונית אמת והסברה הפלונית אינה אמת ואחרי הנביאים החכמים החוקרים והרודפים יומם ולילות הסברות והדעות כדי שידעו איזה מהם אמת ואיזה מהם שוא ואחר הקדמה זאת דע שכל מה שתשמע או שתמצא כתוב מאלו הדברים וכדומה להם הם כולם דברים שאין בהם אמת אבל האומר אותם כסיל או ליצן מהתל או מי שיתכוון לסתור התורה ולהרוס חומותיה הלא תראה עזותם באמרם מבול מאויר ומבול מעפר וכמו כן יוכלו לומר מבול מאש וכל זה אינו אלא נכול ופתוי להטעאת אמנה שהמבול לא היה אלא מקבוץ המים ושלא בא מאת דיין האמת ועל דרך העונש ליושבי הארץ על רוב חטאתם כמו שבאר לנו בספרו הישר המציל אותנו מן הטעות ועל הטענה הזאת לפי סברתם לא נהפכה סדום ובנותיה על כפרם ומעלם כמו שבאר הכתוב (בראשית י"ח כ"א) הכצעקתה הבאה אלי עשו כלה וגומר וכן כל פעל הבא מאת הבורא יתברך בעולם הוא אצלם דבר מחויב מן הקבוצים של כוכבים אלה הם ההקדמות שרצונם להקדים להרוס בהם יהודי הדת ונעשו הפקר ליד תאותם ותשוקת נפשותם הבהמית כמו הבהמות ובנות יענה ובשביל הדעות האלו הזהירנו הבורא יתברך בתורה ואמר שבהיותכם מכעיסים יבאו עליכם פורעניות עקב חטאתכם אם תחשבו שאינם באים עליכם אלא דרך מקרה ושאין סבת הפורענות רוב נאצותכם גם אני אוסיף עליכם מן המקרה ההוא ואכפול אותם עליכם שכן כתוב בתוכחה (ויקרא כ"ו כ"א) ואם תלכו עמי קרי וגו' והלכתי אף אני עמכם בחמת קרי וקרי הוא הדבר שבא שלא בכוונה והוא אומר אם תשימון פורענות דרך מקרה אני אוסיף עליכם מן המקרה ההוא שבע על חטאתיכם וממה שהקדמתי
Verily this is the calculation of an ignorant person, as is evinced by other remarks of his, quoted by you, to the effect that there will be a deluge of air and of dust. It is essential for you to know that these and similar assertions are fabricated and mendacious. Do not consider a statement true because you find it in a book, for the prevaricator is as little restrained with his pen as with his tongue. For the untutored and uninstructed are convinced of the veracity of a statement by the mere fact that it is written; nevertheless its accuracy must be demonstrated in another manner. Remember that a blind person submits to an individual having power of sight for intelligent direction knowing that he lacks the vision to guide him safely; and an ailing person, unskilled in the art of medicine, and uninformed as to matters detrimental to or beneficial for his health, defers to a physician for guidance and obeys him implicitly. Just so is it indispensable for the laity to yield unswervingly to the prophets, who were men of true insight, and to confide in them in respect to matters affecting the truth or the error of a given teaching. Next in importance are the sages who have studied day and night the dogmas and doctrines of our faith and have learned to distinguish between the genuine and the spurious. After this exposition you may trust me that the statements you have previously quoted are inaccurate and this applies equally to similar views which you heard expressed in conversation or met with in books. For the author of such sayings is either ignorant, a mountebank, or seeks to destroy the law and to demolish its bulwarks. Do you perceive the brazenness of these people who assert that there will be a deluge of air, and dust, and fire, in order to deceive and delude others to believe that the Deluge in the time of Noah was merely due to a concentration of water, and was not a Divine punishment for the immorality of the time, as is explicitly stated in Scripture that guides us against error and fallacy. Similarly Sodom, and the other cities were not destroyed because of the unbelief and wickedness of their inhabitants in direct contradiction to the Bible which says, "I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it which is come to me." (Genesis 18:21). Thus whatever happens in this world through Divine intervention, they say is the inevitable consequence of the planetary conjunctions. They have affirmed the truth of their propositions in order to undermine the principles of our religion, and to give free reign to their animal instincts and passions as do the beasts and the ostriches. We were divinely admonished against those views in Scripture to the following effect: "If you rebel against Me so that I bring disaster upon you as a punishment for your misdeeds, but you ascribe your reverses to chance rather than to your guilt, then shall I increase your afflictions and make them more grievous." This is the intent of the verse in the Chapter of Admonition, If you will walk with me 'bekeri' I shall walk with you in the wrath of 'keri'" (Leviticus 26:21, 24). Now "keri" signifies chance, hazard. Scriptures means to say if you regard My chastisement as a fortuitous event, then shall I bring the most severe calamities upon you "sevenfold for your sins." (Leviticus 26:24)
Wow, amazing! I am currently working on a follow up post and putting together many sources from the Rambam where he says the exact opposite of what Natan thinks. Thanks for this one.
I have a spreadsheet with more sources, but it's fairly recent so still adding to it. I shared it with mecharkerbcholoz@gmail.com. Bracha v'hatzalacha!
Never mind, figured it out. Thanks!
Thanks, but I didn't get anything. Can you resend it?
Does Slifkin always wear a bow tie, or just in the BM?
Does Slifkin actually do the statistical analysis? Or is this whole argument based on an unproven assumption?
I find it is very common for atheists and "rationalists" to attempt to use pseudo-statistical arguments, especially Bayes theorem, without having any data at all. I always laugh when that happens. When I dig down a bit, I find that they usually have a very limited understanding of statistics or math in general, which is why they think it is like some smart sciency magic wand they can wave without having data in the first place.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/guns-terrorism-and-torah/comment/13479407
You quote NS as admitting that "he really, really, believes in the Torah’s protection", but in his statements he is careful to only admit that the Torah says it protects. He himself obviously does not believe it because he doesn't believe in the Torah....
Hey, I didn't even consider that. You may be right!
There is a natural world where events happen because G-d runs the world that way. Hence we must act in accordance with cause and effect Nature. There is also G-d's special insertion into events. If you don't protect yourself from harm it will or can happen to you.( Guard your heath etc.) . We don't expect miracles i.e. events to happen which are against the natural order,i.e. which G-d creates every moment. Hence the is reward for fulfilling the Torah snd
and punishment for. not.... You cannot exactly correlate these causes and effects. The Rambam believes you must act within the Natural order and failure to do so will bring you harm and His punishment which is usually the natural result of your actions. Protect yourself with an Army and fulfill the Mitzvot, both important. You may have extra protection from learning Torah but don:t count on it. Prayer very important. Don't walk in front of moving cars and expect to be protected. (Maybe you will) That is not the way of Torah.
I agree. But Slifkin is saying that there is no such thing as reward and punishment - AT ALL..
See here where he confirms that we did not misunderstand him and this is exactly what he intends to say:
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/a-tale-of-two-chavas/comment/14940446