There is something pathologically wrong with that man. He is so wrapped up in hatred that he doesn't realize how absurd and irrational he appears to others. Are the few hundred thousand residents of Bnei Brak, Kiryat Sefer and Beitar identical? Heck, I can't even get along with all my neighbors in one small Haredi neighborhood in Yerushalayim, Kal v'Chomer the different lifestyle and subtle nuances that get on my nerves as soon as I get to the other side of town, yet this loser spews his racist ranting day after day at every black hat and innocent Bais Yaakov girl, wherever they may be in the world. How pathetic!
Someone writes " So instead of lifting a finger to help the war effort". Actually I understand that he is giving free entry to his museum for everyone. He still bears the costs - and everyone else has the benefit. Why ?
Well given the terrible times we are living through, children are often having nightmares and are (understandably) terrified. Parents are often incapable of comforting those children who recognise the very dire situation we are in.
A day out and children's direct contact with animals combine two forms of recognised possible therapy. And if not successful - no harm is done and at least he tried. Those who criticise him should have the honour and integrity to apologise and recognise his efforts. I hope they will.
He does a lot more than most of us for Am Yisroel - myself included .
Well, if that's considered doing something for the war effort, then I have great news for critics of chareidim. I and millions of others are reciting tehillim for the soldiers and captives for *free*. And there is more evidence that tehillim helps the war effort than that animal museums help the war effort. So I guess you have no more problems with us! Peace, man ♂️
If he is letting in refugees free of charge, that is a chesed to those in need, and should be acknowledged. Even if he has ulterior motives, a mitzvah done for impure motives is still a mitzvah.
Has Slifkin personally contributed to the war effort? I have no idea. Did he donate money to the army or to MADA, or to those collecting for refugees? Maybe, maybe not. Did he prepare meals or equipment for the reservists called up? Maybe, maybe not. Did he daven for those in danger to be spared and protected? Once again, maybe, maybe not. Unless you know the answer is no to all of the above (and I don't see how you would know that), you should not criticize. Any criticism without definitive knowledge is speculation.
Maybe he did contribute to the war effort secretly, but he is awfully good at hiding it. The point is that a random chesed of opening his museum up to a few people free of charge is not a contribution to the war effort, if the standard is things that actually contribute to defence, rather than random acts of kindness. Not that he doesn't get reward for his chesed, farkert, the Torah says he will be rewarded in this world (Devarim 7:10).
Typical chareidi lack of emotional intelligence. You think Rav Elchonon Wasserman would have responded in that caustic and dismissive manner to the news that somebody was opening his museum, free of charge, to assist in the human cost of the suffering? But you are not 'gores' human at all, in the world of today's beis hamedrash. Everything is reduced to legalities. So much so, chasanim have to be taught that a wife is not a shtender, or words along those lines.
Well that's random! Let's speculate what Rav Elchonon would have said about our subject. Hmm... I think Rav Elchonon would have said you have mental health issues. I think Rav Elchonon Wasserman would have considered Natan to be be a very, very bad person, for which opening the museum to a few people for free wouldn't come close to compensating for. But what does Natan's alleged compassion have to do with contributions to the war effort, which he has done none, as far as I or anybody else can tell?
1. He fundraises for the trips he gives those families. It is not entirely altruistic.
2. If these trips serve as the excuse why he can bash others who arguably do much more than him, these trips are actually detrimental to the war effort.
3. Even if those families gain, he has contributed nothing to the war effort. The war will be won or ch"v the opposite without his participation. No soldier fights better thanks to him, whereas those who send real chizuk help the soldiers.
4. Nobody can point to a single thing Am Yisroel has gained from him. As opposed to his opponents, who have contributed much to Klal Yisroel.
I strongly disagree with #4. I and many others gained a lot from his Torah and Science books, especially his Animal Encyclopedia and his Camel Hare and Hyrax.
I didn't read the Animal Encyclopedia but I found the Camel interesting and not problematic. Maybe if I was holding in that particular sugya at the time, I would have gained more. But I don't see that book as doing a lot for Am Yisrael, and his dissemination of kefira and sinaas yisrael cancels that out many times over.
i read the other two (the challenge of and the schism one) and was more misguided than helped. i own the hyrax one but never was so interested. now i'll get around to it and get back to you. but give me time... :)
Typical chareidi lack of emotional intelligence. You think Rav Elchonon Wasserman would have responded in that caustic and dismissive manner to the news that somebody was opening his museum, free of charge, to assist in the human cost of the suffering? But you are not 'gores' human at all, in the world of today's beis hamedrash. Everything is reduced to legalities. So much so, chasanim have to be taught that a wife is not a shtender, or words along those lines.
Yes, Rav Nochum would have been very much in favor of lavish peacock parties for a "non-profit" animal museum run by a kofer and sonai yisrael. Oh, did I say Rav Nochum? I meant the Vilna Gaon. No, I meant Rav Chaim Ozer. Oh, I forgot, we were talking about Rav Elchonon. Sorry.
The aspect of "haters of Hashem" can also be found at times among those who perform mitzvos and are scrupulous in avoiding sin, both in deed and in speech -- if they are pained and inwardly troubled when their friends engage in Torah study, and it bothers them when others serve Hashem and fear Him.
Shaarei Teshuva, Gate 3:160 (translation by Feldheim)
Just saying, this whole notion of trying to "disprove" the Torah based on the fact of seeming tragedies is entirely ridiculous. Throughout the Torah we see calamities befall righteous people and the like. The entire sefer Iyov revolves around the concept of צדיק ורע לו. We do NOT understand Hashem's cheshbonos, the ways of G-d are "לא מחשבי מחשבותיכם ולא דרכיכם דרכי" above human reason and comprehension. Every cheder Yingel knows this. It's quite silly that these undereducated MODOX "rationalists" see something, which, in their mind, does not seem to conform with their simplistic understanding of how Torah would protect, they now "know better" than the Torah and Chazal that it is useless.
Oh, and although when something bad happens, we are supposed to be מפשפש במעשינו, examine our own deeds, and not those of others; the sharp and astute comment from "Ari" on RJ a few weeks ago keeps stubbornly surfacing in my mind:
"Yes, it's not because of the people that never ever learn or pray. That cant possibly relate. The liberal lowlives in tel aviv that went ape when good people wanted to pray on Yom Kippur .... they can't possibly have anything to do with it. Because their excellent people! The sinners who spent shabbos/simchas torah doing sex, drinking and drugs in the midbar...they couldn't have had anything to do with it because they are the holiest of the holy.
So the burning question remains.
Since the only people that cause the problems are the good Jews who pray and learn....then nothing bad should ever happen. The jury is still out on this one."
If this whole notion of trying to "disprove" the Torah based on the fact of seeming tragedies is entirely ridiculous than surely the converse is true. It is equally ridiculous to sit back and claim that 'torah protects' from a tanchumah in noach about sura and Pumbedisah (which is anyway difficult as babylonian Jewerey was persecuted) or various aggadatic statements in the gemorroh.
We either see these statements by chazal as coming true or we don't. We either understand Hashems cheshbonos or we do not.
No you didn't. But in any event, if you want your post to be a comprehensive rebuttal, I would expect you to deal with his point. But you know you can't rebut his point clearly and properly. You rely on word salads, contradict yourself later in the conversations, throw in insults and generaly meander around.
This post was not meant to be a rebuttal of that "point" but on a different subject. We rebutted the "point" clearly and properly a million times, for people with the most rudimentary reading comprehension, which you don't seem to possess.
What a loser. While Jewish pepole all over the world are attempting to put their differences aside, Natan's irrational hatred is so out of whack that he doesn't even realize how he appears to others.
I admitted no such thing. And I clearly delineated between normal debate and trolling, which was the direct result of the chicken-hearted coward banning normal debate.
I have no idea what value my contributions or Natan's or yours or anyone else's makes to the war efforts. A bigger power than me or anyone has that information. Perhaps you could direct your query there ?
I do not understand from where you take your mistaken assessment.
If this was meant as a serious comment, I have a serious response. Are you willing to extend the same charitable attitude to chareidim who don't serve in the army? If not, we know that the attitude you try to portray in your comment is a complete farce.
As far as I am aware all of us say tehillim both in shul with a minyan and also often privately. Providing a free day out for people and saying tehillim are not mutually exclusive as far as I am aware. I leave it to the Almighty to assess which of our prayers and what actions are the most important and or effective. It is beyond my job description. I try to spread my own bets out of ignorance.
In regards to the content of Natan's latest post (cities of torah warriors), first, how does he explain the idea that pumpedesa didn't suffer at the hands of yavan and edom (תנחומא נח)? And is he sure that they didn't have any hishtadlus plans?
Maybe kiryas sefer is like pumpedesa, maybe it isn't. Probably one would have to go to check. (The few people i know there happen to be quite impressive.) But that misses the whole point. If torah actually protected in pumpedesa of old, that actually kills his whole vibe. Natan just dismisses the whole idea to begin with, because he doesn't believe in it. And he thinks we don't *really* believe it ourselves either. What a small minded view:(
And I guess he will probably put on subscriber mode whenever giving any hot and dicey Jewish takes...
"how does he explain the idea that pumpedesa didn't suffer at the hands of yavan and edom (תנחומא נח)?"
The same way as how you explain how the great talmidei chachochim that were killed and yeshivos that were destroyed by the Nazis and their helpers. Or why Yackov did not rely on his own torah prior to his encouter with eisov and was, as the possuk tells, frightened 'me'od'. The torah doesn't waste words. Not just frightened. 'Meod'.
Yackov didn't get the memo that torah protects?
Ultimately, Hashem does what he does, and 'torah protects', in practice, cannot be relied upon for any purposes. Becasue sometimes it just doesn't protect.
You're asking a question, not providing an answer.
As for your question, you're conflating different things. We, at our end, have a specific avoda, to learn God's laws and will. Teshuva takes away the bad gezeira. God, on His end, has His cheshbonos.
Tzaddik vra lo is a very difficult question which can bother us if we try to play God. But this doesn't mean that our avoda isn't to learn and daven better. That's what we need to do, and that is the Jewish response to an eis tzara.
Now of course there is a time and place for hishtadlus. And the question of when to do that is complex. To come the proper answer, one has to have proper appreciation for torah and avoda and awareness of the sakana. Perhaps the yeshivish world is too lax because of how they are bright up as bachurim, which is why everyone needs to have rabbeim to talk to. This includes when is the right time to go to work as well as the army question.
You can't in true yeshivah style hide from practical living issues with a bunch of waffle about avodah when difficult questions are posed. Your rabbonim say your avodah is in thr BH safe and well, and their rabbinim are a bunch of moderns. Their rabbonim say their avodah is to fight and try and save lives and your rabbonim are a bunch trying to innappropreaty keep l8ving the life of a Polish shtetle in 2024 ignoring Hashem's shefa in a miraculos state.
Who actually knows who us correct without a novi. Waffling about 'avodah' and 'torah protects (sometimes) will not determine you are right and they are wrong.
Just a small correction, Shulman. It's Pumbedisa, not Pumpedisa. Pumpedisa is the name of a band (who apparently wanted to have the word pump in their name).
There is something pathologically wrong with that man. He is so wrapped up in hatred that he doesn't realize how absurd and irrational he appears to others. Are the few hundred thousand residents of Bnei Brak, Kiryat Sefer and Beitar identical? Heck, I can't even get along with all my neighbors in one small Haredi neighborhood in Yerushalayim, Kal v'Chomer the different lifestyle and subtle nuances that get on my nerves as soon as I get to the other side of town, yet this loser spews his racist ranting day after day at every black hat and innocent Bais Yaakov girl, wherever they may be in the world. How pathetic!
I think he genuinely believes he is doing something good. Being misguided is much harder to fix than just being wrong
Someone writes " So instead of lifting a finger to help the war effort". Actually I understand that he is giving free entry to his museum for everyone. He still bears the costs - and everyone else has the benefit. Why ?
Well given the terrible times we are living through, children are often having nightmares and are (understandably) terrified. Parents are often incapable of comforting those children who recognise the very dire situation we are in.
A day out and children's direct contact with animals combine two forms of recognised possible therapy. And if not successful - no harm is done and at least he tried. Those who criticise him should have the honour and integrity to apologise and recognise his efforts. I hope they will.
He does a lot more than most of us for Am Yisroel - myself included .
Well, if that's considered doing something for the war effort, then I have great news for critics of chareidim. I and millions of others are reciting tehillim for the soldiers and captives for *free*. And there is more evidence that tehillim helps the war effort than that animal museums help the war effort. So I guess you have no more problems with us! Peace, man ♂️
If he is letting in refugees free of charge, that is a chesed to those in need, and should be acknowledged. Even if he has ulterior motives, a mitzvah done for impure motives is still a mitzvah.
Has Slifkin personally contributed to the war effort? I have no idea. Did he donate money to the army or to MADA, or to those collecting for refugees? Maybe, maybe not. Did he prepare meals or equipment for the reservists called up? Maybe, maybe not. Did he daven for those in danger to be spared and protected? Once again, maybe, maybe not. Unless you know the answer is no to all of the above (and I don't see how you would know that), you should not criticize. Any criticism without definitive knowledge is speculation.
Maybe he did contribute to the war effort secretly, but he is awfully good at hiding it. The point is that a random chesed of opening his museum up to a few people free of charge is not a contribution to the war effort, if the standard is things that actually contribute to defence, rather than random acts of kindness. Not that he doesn't get reward for his chesed, farkert, the Torah says he will be rewarded in this world (Devarim 7:10).
Typical chareidi lack of emotional intelligence. You think Rav Elchonon Wasserman would have responded in that caustic and dismissive manner to the news that somebody was opening his museum, free of charge, to assist in the human cost of the suffering? But you are not 'gores' human at all, in the world of today's beis hamedrash. Everything is reduced to legalities. So much so, chasanim have to be taught that a wife is not a shtender, or words along those lines.
Well that's random! Let's speculate what Rav Elchonon would have said about our subject. Hmm... I think Rav Elchonon would have said you have mental health issues. I think Rav Elchonon Wasserman would have considered Natan to be be a very, very bad person, for which opening the museum to a few people for free wouldn't come close to compensating for. But what does Natan's alleged compassion have to do with contributions to the war effort, which he has done none, as far as I or anybody else can tell?
1. He fundraises for the trips he gives those families. It is not entirely altruistic.
2. If these trips serve as the excuse why he can bash others who arguably do much more than him, these trips are actually detrimental to the war effort.
3. Even if those families gain, he has contributed nothing to the war effort. The war will be won or ch"v the opposite without his participation. No soldier fights better thanks to him, whereas those who send real chizuk help the soldiers.
4. Nobody can point to a single thing Am Yisroel has gained from him. As opposed to his opponents, who have contributed much to Klal Yisroel.
I strongly disagree with #4. I and many others gained a lot from his Torah and Science books, especially his Animal Encyclopedia and his Camel Hare and Hyrax.
I didn't read the Animal Encyclopedia but I found the Camel interesting and not problematic. Maybe if I was holding in that particular sugya at the time, I would have gained more. But I don't see that book as doing a lot for Am Yisrael, and his dissemination of kefira and sinaas yisrael cancels that out many times over.
but, might i ask, did you gain, or were you misguided?
I gained. Have you read the Camel The Hare and The Hyrax? It's a valuable analysis.
i read the other two (the challenge of and the schism one) and was more misguided than helped. i own the hyrax one but never was so interested. now i'll get around to it and get back to you. but give me time... :)
Typical chareidi lack of emotional intelligence. You think Rav Elchonon Wasserman would have responded in that caustic and dismissive manner to the news that somebody was opening his museum, free of charge, to assist in the human cost of the suffering? But you are not 'gores' human at all, in the world of today's beis hamedrash. Everything is reduced to legalities. So much so, chasanim have to be taught that a wife is not a shtender, or words along those lines.
That was definitely a word salad 🥗
Reb Elchanan Wasserman knew exactly how much 'non-profit' people make on these schemes.
But I have no idea how his name arrived in this Sugya.
Yes, Rav Nochum would have been very much in favor of lavish peacock parties for a "non-profit" animal museum run by a kofer and sonai yisrael. Oh, did I say Rav Nochum? I meant the Vilna Gaon. No, I meant Rav Chaim Ozer. Oh, I forgot, we were talking about Rav Elchonon. Sorry.
That's just "test" projecting and deflecting.
Yes, if the benefactor was a "hater of Hashem".
Rav Elchonon and other gedolim would never call a Jew like Slifkin a "hater of Hashem." Misguided maybe. Wrong maybe. But not that.
Thank you for proving my point of your complete inability to understand these things. Good bye.
Oh wow, you really know nothing about Reb Elchonon. (Not sure why I'm surprised, though).
Just check the things he wrote about Rav Kook...
Did he write Rav Kook was a 'hater of Hashem'? With all the misquoting you and happy and your mates enjoy, you are somewhat unreliable here.
Good riddance test. Although your antics are amusing. And I doubt you'll carry through on your promise.
As a reminder:
The aspect of "haters of Hashem" can also be found at times among those who perform mitzvos and are scrupulous in avoiding sin, both in deed and in speech -- if they are pained and inwardly troubled when their friends engage in Torah study, and it bothers them when others serve Hashem and fear Him.
Shaarei Teshuva, Gate 3:160 (translation by Feldheim)
Just saying, this whole notion of trying to "disprove" the Torah based on the fact of seeming tragedies is entirely ridiculous. Throughout the Torah we see calamities befall righteous people and the like. The entire sefer Iyov revolves around the concept of צדיק ורע לו. We do NOT understand Hashem's cheshbonos, the ways of G-d are "לא מחשבי מחשבותיכם ולא דרכיכם דרכי" above human reason and comprehension. Every cheder Yingel knows this. It's quite silly that these undereducated MODOX "rationalists" see something, which, in their mind, does not seem to conform with their simplistic understanding of how Torah would protect, they now "know better" than the Torah and Chazal that it is useless.
Oh, and although when something bad happens, we are supposed to be מפשפש במעשינו, examine our own deeds, and not those of others; the sharp and astute comment from "Ari" on RJ a few weeks ago keeps stubbornly surfacing in my mind:
"Yes, it's not because of the people that never ever learn or pray. That cant possibly relate. The liberal lowlives in tel aviv that went ape when good people wanted to pray on Yom Kippur .... they can't possibly have anything to do with it. Because their excellent people! The sinners who spent shabbos/simchas torah doing sex, drinking and drugs in the midbar...they couldn't have had anything to do with it because they are the holiest of the holy.
So the burning question remains.
Since the only people that cause the problems are the good Jews who pray and learn....then nothing bad should ever happen. The jury is still out on this one."
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/every-tehillim-is-a-bullet/comment/44290018
If this whole notion of trying to "disprove" the Torah based on the fact of seeming tragedies is entirely ridiculous than surely the converse is true. It is equally ridiculous to sit back and claim that 'torah protects' from a tanchumah in noach about sura and Pumbedisah (which is anyway difficult as babylonian Jewerey was persecuted) or various aggadatic statements in the gemorroh.
We either see these statements by chazal as coming true or we don't. We either understand Hashems cheshbonos or we do not.
Or is it a convenient one way road?
With all your deflectionary leitzonus, you can't deal with his point, can you?
We dealt with "his point" about a million times, but each time you fled the debate by saying "good day", "good night". So there is no point with you.
No you didn't. But in any event, if you want your post to be a comprehensive rebuttal, I would expect you to deal with his point. But you know you can't rebut his point clearly and properly. You rely on word salads, contradict yourself later in the conversations, throw in insults and generaly meander around.
And everybody knows it.
This post was not meant to be a rebuttal of that "point" but on a different subject. We rebutted the "point" clearly and properly a million times, for people with the most rudimentary reading comprehension, which you don't seem to possess.
Yes, nothing is about anything in your leitzonuoshe word-salads.
It provides great plausibility denial and means you don't actually need reply in depth or thought to anything.
Yes, this post is not about that subject. Not all subjects are the same. What exactly is hard to understand about that concept?
Your repeated accusations of leitzanis is projection.
What a loser. While Jewish pepole all over the world are attempting to put their differences aside, Natan's irrational hatred is so out of whack that he doesn't even realize how he appears to others.
Take it easy on him. Chazal say אין לפייס אדם בעת כעסו. For some people that can be 24/7/365.
Charedim never realise how they appear to others. If fact, very few people ever realise how they appear to others. Nothing to do with hatred.
:...When they will do anything to flee the debate...."
So, in your eyes, spamming a blog (which you freely admit you and your mates do) is 'debate'?
I admitted no such thing. And I clearly delineated between normal debate and trolling, which was the direct result of the chicken-hearted coward banning normal debate.
I have no idea what value my contributions or Natan's or yours or anyone else's makes to the war efforts. A bigger power than me or anyone has that information. Perhaps you could direct your query there ?
I do not understand from where you take your mistaken assessment.
If this was meant as a serious comment, I have a serious response. Are you willing to extend the same charitable attitude to chareidim who don't serve in the army? If not, we know that the attitude you try to portray in your comment is a complete farce.
As far as I am aware all of us say tehillim both in shul with a minyan and also often privately. Providing a free day out for people and saying tehillim are not mutually exclusive as far as I am aware. I leave it to the Almighty to assess which of our prayers and what actions are the most important and or effective. It is beyond my job description. I try to spread my own bets out of ignorance.
So then you also contribute way more to the war effort than Natan. Cool!
Happy: This is great news for your traffic.
Most of this particular post was a little too sharp for my taste, but I did laugh out loud at the last line.
"Clearly Chazal believed that they believed that God brought about victory, but they didn't really believe it."
Perfectly said.
The survival of the Jewish people is guaranteed. The survival of specific elements or families or individuals is not guaranteed.
https://ishayirashashem.substack.com/p/im-jewish-so-maybe-you-hate-me-2
(Dedicated to my cousin Hayim, a peace activist killed on October 7th)
Also, note that Isha Yiras Hashem is the inventor of the term "Latke-tostraphe" https://ishayirashashem.substack.com/p/day-38-the-latke-tostraphe-of-intermittent
To be fair, it seems like he was feeling stressed by it, and he probably should have shut it down long ago.
As for the museum, he's been letting refugees go for free, and I doubt this decision was made for financial reasons.
In regards to the content of Natan's latest post (cities of torah warriors), first, how does he explain the idea that pumpedesa didn't suffer at the hands of yavan and edom (תנחומא נח)? And is he sure that they didn't have any hishtadlus plans?
Maybe kiryas sefer is like pumpedesa, maybe it isn't. Probably one would have to go to check. (The few people i know there happen to be quite impressive.) But that misses the whole point. If torah actually protected in pumpedesa of old, that actually kills his whole vibe. Natan just dismisses the whole idea to begin with, because he doesn't believe in it. And he thinks we don't *really* believe it ourselves either. What a small minded view:(
And I guess he will probably put on subscriber mode whenever giving any hot and dicey Jewish takes...
"how does he explain the idea that pumpedesa didn't suffer at the hands of yavan and edom (תנחומא נח)?"
The same way as how you explain how the great talmidei chachochim that were killed and yeshivos that were destroyed by the Nazis and their helpers. Or why Yackov did not rely on his own torah prior to his encouter with eisov and was, as the possuk tells, frightened 'me'od'. The torah doesn't waste words. Not just frightened. 'Meod'.
Yackov didn't get the memo that torah protects?
Ultimately, Hashem does what he does, and 'torah protects', in practice, cannot be relied upon for any purposes. Becasue sometimes it just doesn't protect.
You're asking a question, not providing an answer.
As for your question, you're conflating different things. We, at our end, have a specific avoda, to learn God's laws and will. Teshuva takes away the bad gezeira. God, on His end, has His cheshbonos.
Tzaddik vra lo is a very difficult question which can bother us if we try to play God. But this doesn't mean that our avoda isn't to learn and daven better. That's what we need to do, and that is the Jewish response to an eis tzara.
Now of course there is a time and place for hishtadlus. And the question of when to do that is complex. To come the proper answer, one has to have proper appreciation for torah and avoda and awareness of the sakana. Perhaps the yeshivish world is too lax because of how they are bright up as bachurim, which is why everyone needs to have rabbeim to talk to. This includes when is the right time to go to work as well as the army question.
You can't in true yeshivah style hide from practical living issues with a bunch of waffle about avodah when difficult questions are posed. Your rabbonim say your avodah is in thr BH safe and well, and their rabbinim are a bunch of moderns. Their rabbonim say their avodah is to fight and try and save lives and your rabbonim are a bunch trying to innappropreaty keep l8ving the life of a Polish shtetle in 2024 ignoring Hashem's shefa in a miraculos state.
Who actually knows who us correct without a novi. Waffling about 'avodah' and 'torah protects (sometimes) will not determine you are right and they are wrong.
Just a small correction, Shulman. It's Pumbedisa, not Pumpedisa. Pumpedisa is the name of a band (who apparently wanted to have the word pump in their name).
lol tx