After looking around some more, I don't think we should judge this guy Erez Eshel, he was apparently mentally scarred by the war. He went into several yeshivos unannounced, wearing his gun, and started yelling at the students, and in at least one case, threatened to SHOOT the Rosh Yeshiva. https://hm-news.co.il/408578/
I am not so good with spoken ivrit but was able to understand the whole video at .75 speed, and I was impressed at how Rav Dov spoke to him with such compassion, while holding his ground without budging an inch. This is Gadlus.
We should have him in our tefilos for a refuah sheleima as well.
"This post is a logical fallacy. There is only so much Torah learning can do to protect mechalelei Shabbos, atheists and other reshoim. Thus the October 7th massacre does not prove the failure of Torah learning to protect."
I would like to expound on this. I don't think Shimon means the clueless masses, the tinokos shenishbu, although tinok shenishba is certainly not a get-out-of-jail-free card. I think he is referring to the leaders, the intellectuals, the public figures, who ought to know more, and who inspire their fellow secularists to ignore or be kofer in the Torah. These people are the most responsible for a great portion of the death and danger that Israel faces, and the righteous are in the position of doing damage control. But even worse are the ones who not only inspire kefira, but spread hatred against the Shomrei Torah and Lomdei Torah. Such people are certainly the greatest friends of Hamas, and have the most blood on their hands.
Slifkin's post is so much nonsense, it is too difficult to separate them all. But I don't think this is the correct point. On a boat filled with עובדי עבודה זרה, Yonah said בשלי הסערה הזאת.
He seems to think that Reb Dov Landau applied for the job of Gadol Hador, and benefits from it. He seems to think that Reb Dov finds it hard to give it up. Reb Dov has no benefit or interest in it, it is one big headache. But he sees the generation and realizes that he must step up. What should he do now? Give up his salary that he receives from the World Jewish Congress for being Gadol Hador? Return the keys to the corporate bathroom and company car and ski chalet? He still has the achrayus to ensure that Torah is kept and not distorted. Nothing changed.
And his proof that the lack of Torah learning couldn't be a factor in this tragedy is the pinnacle of logic. There is more Torah learned than at any other time in history, which equals to 'sufficient Torah learned to prove his point'. How A = B is anyone's guess. There are more doctors nowadays than at any time in history. Proof that medicine doesn't work, because how come people still get sick? And this is besides the fact that he has no idea what went on in history and how many people learned in history.
Then he's on to the claim that the Chilonim did it. If so, why didn't they do kiruv on them? Like the only reason to do kiruv is to prevent pogroms. We knew that there were chilonim in the world for many years. And we still decided that kiruv was not the primary focus. For various reasons. What does 10/7 have to do with anything? How should that change anything? We still focus on Talmud Torah, believing that kiruv will not be successful without a strong backbone of Lomdei Torah.
But his twisted logic doesn't end. He is backing the claim of Erez Eshel, who ' has been trying to persuade chareidi yeshivos to enlist in the army, and at the very least to connect with the nation by attending funerals of fallen soldiers and visiting the injured'. Because otherwise they are to blame for the fact that 'they are clearly fully responsible for the fact that virtually none of the hundreds of soldiers who were killed and continue to be killed are from the charedi community - and fathers of large families, already of an older age, are in reserve duty because there aren’t enough soldiers otherwise'. No more lives are lost whether they enlist or not, but he thinks we should take responsibility for that. But how will 'attending funerals' change anything? If it's about lives, what will anyone gain by us visiting the injured? Of course, the purpose isn't lives, it is breaking down that barrier that was placed between the Lomdei Torah and the street. It is about forcing the Lomdei Torah to stop their cloistered life, because that somehow bothers people. No regard for the shita behind the cloistering and no real regard for people's lives. Just an attempt to force others to change their way of life.
People who don't learn Torah are not just amei ha'aretz. Their cognitive abilities are rusted too, and they come up with this kind of confusing logic.
"Reb Dov has no benefit or interest in it, it is one big headache. But he sees the generation and realizes that he must step up."
That's not really an answer to anything. It's very likely that many of the firings will be of career officers who have devoted their lives and endangered themselves on behalf of the state of Israel. Failures have consequences, especially catastrophically deadly failures. The fellow at the top is expected to step aside and allow someone else to step up. Basically, Dr Slifkin is making a le'shitascha argument. Quotes below.
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"Then we come to the 10/7 massacred and the charedi community. Now, personally, I don’t think that they have any responsibility for what happened. (On the other hand, they are clearly fully responsible for the fact that virtually none of the hundreds of soldiers who were killed and continue to be killed are from the charedi community - and fathers of large families, already of an older age, are in reserve duty because there aren’t enough soldiers otherwise.) But from a charedi perspective, they do have responsibility."
"You can’t have it both ways. Either you are the ones creating Israel’s security, or you’re not. If you are, then you have to take blame for failure."
If the Chavrei Knesset are called to vote on something of great import for the Charedi community, and Reb Dov knows that the vote needs to go one way for the future of Klal Yisroel, should he keep his mouth shut? How can he? Where would his achrayus go?
Gadol Hador is not a job, a career, or a reward. It isn't comparable to a politician, general, CEO, founder, askan, or Gabbai in Shul. It is an achrayus, it is the feeling that it is impossible for him to stand by when something needs to be done. And the word 'needs' is not the correct one. A person needs food to live, a country needs security. The 'need' referred to is a cosmic one, something that touches the entire universe and its background. All olamos are waiting for people to learn Torah, and protecting this is more important than merely providing food for the hungry. How can he keep quiet about this?
This is not comparable to IDF career officers, even those that are ehrlich.
This is besides the other stupidities spewed, as though he bears responsibility for G-d's actions. But that needs another post.
*I'm* not demanding anything. I posted Dr Slifkin's demands in my previous comment.
But I will say, that if the charedi world is that dependant on one man's advice, they're in really bad shape. Fortunately, I don't think it's quite that bad......
No one thinks they are relying on one person. Zichron is responding to slifkin who decided that he should resign which is stupid. Should yirmiyahu have 'stepped down" when the beis hamikdash was destroyed? Obviously not. In fact, if more people were devoted to torah like our gedolim we'd all be in better shape. So they should continue their influence if anything, not step down
The intellectuals are obviously the most at fault, but I don't think the fact that the masses are tinokos shenishbu should absolve them of their role in this. They may not have the din of a rasha on an individual level, but the fact that so much sin is transpiring nowadays, and hatred for Torah and Yiddishkeit is so prevalent, likely creates a tremendous kitrug on Klal Yisroel.
a gay pride parade in ארצינו הקדושה, which is the beis Hashem, and the frightening disregard for HKBH on a national level in hashem's house is more than disgraceful. even if not everyone is at fault per se, as you point out, there needs to be teshuva. not blaming anyone particularly, but some people should be pointing fingers inward instead of at the chareidim for goodness sake.
but then again, this is the basis of their whole worldview - chareidim = bad; they are the only ones who need to be fixed, we, wordly folk =good; we can continue on our merry way.
the chareidim are not staying complacent here. they are doing teshuva, or at least making moves in that direction. many others are making no moves. because teshuva and HKBH was never a value to begin with. וי לן
btw the reason i'm not going to give a dime is because to begin with i'm always torn if i should be on that blog to begin with. it's probably (read: fishore) lashon hara at it's finest and there's really no heter. my opinion of reb moshe shapiro, reb elyashic, reb chaim kanievsky, זכר צדיקים קדושים וטהורים אוהבי השי"ת יראי אלקים שונאי בצע לברכה and others were actually damaged for a while, solely because of his lashon hara. bH i am older and wiser and i know how to deflect, but i imagine it can still have a רושם. the only reason i continue, possibly wrongly, is because i know he is doing it anyways, and people like my old self are reading and need to hear the other side. so i go on his comment section and argue and try to restore to people on the fringe that there is another outlook. (that is the power of this blog, offensive name and all - a witty place where we are just as much ליצנים as they, while upholding the torah values. so chazak ve'amatz.) but if we are kicked off, it may be better not to try defending the honor of those which will only lead to great bizayon in the eyes of our greatest leaders' detractors, as per hilchos lashon hara, not to praise in front of an enemy... so anyways, i won't be paying to do something i'm not sure is acceptable at all anyways. (although, perhaps lashon hara is only a mussar and made up chumra by the chafetz chaim as some of those simpletons think - https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/when-lashon-hara-is-mitzvah)
Natan's response to Shimon was especially retarded. To paraphrase: Charedim are still to blame because they didn't do enough kiruv.
Rationalists don't believe in bechira and rather believe we are all automatons and that compelling kiruv by seasoned professionals would automatically and immediately persuade even the most jaded secularists. Even those Jews that rise to the level of outright evil will make teshuva on the spot after a few words of kiruv-tinged divrei Torah.
Slifkin: Therefore the charedim are still wrong, and I am still right, even if not for the reasons I originally claimed.
His latest post was so cringe omg. We *do* take responsibility. They're why we call for teshuva during these times. We acknowledge that this is all Hashem sending His people a message to be better. A guy who doesn't get find more ways to not get it. I'm glad at least Shimon is there calling him out
The most ridiculous thing about his post is that his 'logical' conclusion is that all chareidi gedolim are lying frauds .No serious intellectual (or frum jew) could make such a claim at the very least with getting the response of the other side first.
He starts with this weird projection that we don't really believe what we say and all his arguments "follow" from that.
Allow me to describe how most people work. There are two sides of as political spectrum. The loudest advocate of side A simply does not get side B. He thinks, in his great wisdom that what the other side is proposing is so prosposterous that is not possible for anyone to actually believe that it can be true.
Take trans ideology. I disagree with the movement for various reasons. But I strongly get where they're coming from (not for now on the deetz). Most political pundits really don't get the other side (or at least put on that face for loyal viewership). So their starting point is that this ideology is crazy. Following that, all they need to do is point out all of the flaws (sports, bathrooms, people who are taking it etc) and they have a winning case. But the win is only for them and those who start with that assumption. Anyone who doesn't think trans ideology is ludicrous sees only craziness from a stupid, stubborn other side who just doesn't get it. I use trans ideology, which actually is wrong for the most part, to bring out the point: If you want to argue with an opposing side, and I mean argue for real, the first step is *not* to find the weak links. Because to someone who gets the point, these weak links are minor kinks that need to be smoothed out, nothing more. What you need to start with us getting into the opposing sides actual head.
Back to slifkin, he has expressed a number of times that he thinks we don't actually believe that the Torah is of value and that it protects. Starting from that assumption, he sits back and demolished his already demolished opponent. His mistake is that we are not demolished except in his own eyes.
This is true in politics as well as in Hashkafah, as you point out.
Someone who cannot separate himself from these biases, will never manage to have an intellectual conversation.
Aristotle/Einstein/some chacham either did or didn't say, "the ability to entertain an idea without accepting it is the hallmark of an educated mind." Learning a Sugya, understanding a Hava Amina that you know is not going to last, is one way to become 'educated'.
Exactly, he is effectively fighting an ideology which he himself created. And as a result even if he does try ''fight'' it (which he keeps giving this cringy one liners at the end of his posts how big the challenge is that 'they' face ) he will never get anywhere purely because he is fighting an imaginary ideology.
Sorry, but strongly disagree with the last line: "Yeshiva education that may not be interrupted by Army service, Tzitizis tying, or attendance at Levayos"
We interrupt learning all the time for levayos. Someone who did al kiddush hashem deserves a high levaya attendance rate. That fact that we don't go shows that we do not value the soldiers sacrifice. I think that someone learning doesn't need to go serve, but they should go to levayos, especially of lone soldiers.
You quoted half a sentence. Which is why you disagree.
Come to Beis Hamedrash, sit down and learn the basics, get to know how Gemara works and what it teaches us, and then maybe you will appreciate the benefits of the hyper-focus of a Yeshiva education that may not be interrupted by Army service, Tzitizis tying, or attendance at Levayos.
How condescending. I grew up in chareidi yeahivos and learned in kollel. I know what Gemara is and what it does. I also know we leave the beis medrash for levayos of gedolim and I believe a soldier who died al kiddush hashem and has no one attending his levaya should be included in that category.
The Yeshiva years are for single-minded devotion to Talmud Torah, understanding Torah, being trained in Torah, and treating Torah with utmost respect. Not lip-service respect, but appreciation that the entire world depends on the seemingly tiny difference between Sevara A and Sevara B.
Afterwards, when the Talmid has been trained, he can rebalance his life to include the other pursuits for which he was born. He has an ingrained appreciation for Torah that no amount of working for a living, doing chessed, or askonus can uproot (if he doesn't allow them to).
A levaya of a Gadol is an expression of Kavod Hatorah, it is no contradiction to this focus.
The levaya of a soldier, even as we are grateful for the benefits we derive from his service and altruism, and respect the כפרת עוונות he receives by dying at the hands of an ערל, is still not an expression of כבוד התורה and is a contradiction to this focus.
If you wish to disagree with me, you must either:
1) show that singleminded focus is not important, or
2) show that a levaya of a soldier is not a contradiction to this.
If all you can say is how important the soldier's levaya is, you are not actually disagreeing with me.
personally, i agree that many yeshivos end up with people that are a bit too single-minded. but i'd only mention that with the obvious caveat that i'm not one who goes around bashing the best system in the world. and more importantly, here is where the importance of a personal rebbi comes in. almost no one who has a true gadol as a rebbi has this issue (and said gadol doesn't need to be 90 years old. there are plenty of wise young talmidei chachomim rabbeim out there. this doesn't mean that there aren't bad eggs or misguided eggs or clueless eggs, but i think the system is superb). most of them are well rounded people who know when to tow this line. and they know their talmidim enough to know what to tell them when and how. so it's not a taina on the system. the issue is that there are many who don't find themselves a rebbi and generalize. the point is that there is a balance between giving over the values the strngest (iyun hatorah, kesher with Hashem) and other values, which are nt at all contradictions but b&w individuals need help separating these things.
(one last point, this rebbi doesn't need to be someone who he hangs around all day. it can be from a few minutes a week. someone who he considered a מלאך הש' צבקות and he learns from him tremendously. and one can have more than one also.)
i wrote that quickly w/out checking over so i may hafta edit later, but i hope it was clear. gotta run!
Ya zd I didn't like that response either. I disagree with ash about a lot of things but he does get it for the most part. I used to be confused about ash's position but it seems like he is one of us, although he can use some education when it comes to science and stuff but regarding his practical chashivus for torah he seems to be one of us - ash, correct me if I'm wrong...
I'd say punkt farkert- I'm machshiv Torah but I DO know the science, which is why i am convinced an approach like R Slifkins is essentially correct when it comes to scientific matters. People like Happy basically just say "have emuna its wrong" or "it's speculative" when anyone who actually knows how science works will find that unconvincing.
you must have misunderstood, sorry if i wasn't clear. i know that you are proficient in the sciences. i meant an education about the torah's view of science. i already shared what i think on your substack - https://daastorah.substack.com/p/is-the-torah-divine-298/comment/44947108 (i guess similar to happy's view)
my point here was just that many of us are initially confused by where you stand in this whole yeshivish/rational thing, until we "get to know you better" and see that you are on our side, only that the questions science poses really bother you. i believe that someone like zd is confused by you and thinks of you like an antagonist and an outsider, and that your comment above was coming from that angle - which, if so, his fiery response was appropriate. personally, my impression of you is that in a comment like the one above your opinion is just as valid as an insider; hence my rejection of his tone.
I have no idea who this godol is, but telling students NOT to go a funeral is disgraceful. And the article and subsequent supportive comments only add to that awful decision.
According to the mishna, the world survives because of 3 things, and acts of loving kindness is one of them,, and burying the dead is the greatest mitzvah of them all, and then go comfort the mourners. I bet when this godol dies his students will be at the funeral. Tsk, tsk, taking time off from Torah study.
An article was written, based on someone's understanding of the words of a wise man.
You can disagree, of course. But this isn't some kind of college, where wearing a tweed jacket and a bowtie allows you to spew whatever nonsense you want. You are expected, on irrationalist modoxism, to back up your claims and specify them.
Which part of the article is 'disgraceful'? What should be changed? How is the survival of the world the issue here?
I explained why not to go to a funeral. You ignored my explanation, merely calling it disgraceful. Which part of my explanation do you disagree with?
Then you misquote a Mishna, as though your misrepresentation had anything to do with the subject at hand.
The Mishna doesn't mention 'survival', it mentions 'standing'. But even if the world 'survives' on those three things, there is still no obligation on Yeshiva bochurim to go out and attend every funeral possible. We have a Halachic process, and as long as there is a Chevra Kadisha in town, they can stay in Beis Hamedrash and learn.
So you basically said nothing, just that you feel that it is disgraceful. That is your problem, nothing to do with anybody else. You have no right to force your feelings on others.
When the founding fathers decided to set up a democracy, they were famously challenged, "what? even stupid people??" That's the famous quote, but really the concern was that uninformed people would vote. Policy would become something that is decided by whims and feelings while there are real facts on the ground that need to be taken into account. So in short, welcome to politics, zd!
pick your scenario: if a gadol who was a rebbi of bachurim, and was asked (a) by a specific individual (b) who is truly serious about his learning and (c) felt that it would help his nosei be'ol to go to a levaya (d) (and worked it out with his chavrusa), the gadol probably agreed that he should, and if not there was a specific reason, such as they were in middle of a particularly intense sugya which couldn't be tampered with (in which you can disagree but at least hear where he is coming from. such as the fact that a good bachur going to a levaya can cause a rifyon in the whole bm).
change any one of those variables and the reason not go is easily understood (although it then depends on circumstance as well, but we can give credit that the rebbi knows his bachurim and decided because of so many factors that it was not the right thing for this boy)
Not a fair response. You were the one speculating.
The actual truth will be based on how much faith we put in our rabbeim and leaders and how decent we think they are. If you a priori decided that they never know what they're doing, this conversation is DOA
The only speculation i made was that if this "godol' died, the students will go to the funeral. I believe that speculation has some empirical evidence to support it.
I am shocked at your comment:" If the Yeshiva bochur goes out to levayos of soldiers, or ties Tzitzis for the newly inspired foxhole believers, he has disparaged his own contribution to the success of the mission.: " Halvoyas ha'mes is especially important for someone who is moser nefesh for klall yosroel, besides the hakoras hatov required and IMHO massively overrides someone who is learning and can make up the time later.
I do not have time to repeat the full story but R' Shlomo Zalman Auerbach z"tl referred to the buried soldiers on Har Herzl ( about 200 metres from his Kol Torah Yeshivah) as "kedoshim" and in answer to a bochur who wanted to go to the Galil to daven at the kevorim of the kedoshim there - said he went to those kedoshim across the road (or nearby) i.e those on Har Herzl.
So you have a Halachic or a Hashkafic claim that Yeshiva bochurim should go out to levayos of soldiers, in recognition of the wonderful work of the soldier.
Fine, that is your opinion, based on your understanding of Torah.
Are you cognizant of the fact that people who spend their lives learning Torah are more likely to reach the truth than you? If you were not explained otherwise, are you willing to accept that a person like Reb Dov knows better than the average person, and his opinion should be followed?
If you can accept that, we can move to the next step. Now, let us try and understand. There is a Mitzvah to be melave dead people, and there is a נימוס ודרך ארץ to recognize the contribution of someone who made the ultimate sacrifice for us. Why are we not obligated to go to the Levaya for that reason?
Then, you make another point. You claim 'you can make up the time later'.
Point No. 2 actually distracts from Point No. 1. The second point is based on a misunderstanding of what learning in Yeshiva is, and the singleminded focus necessary to reach true Gadlus Batorah. It's not about the time spent, and it never really is.
But Point No. 1 is an important one, even if the story with Reb Shlomo Zalman is probably fabricated, or at least exaggerated, and quite irrelevant. And this is the crux of the matter. If we were dealing with a question of going to a Levaya, your sevara is absolutely correct. But we are dealing with a request from someone that the Yeshivos break down their barriers, disturb their single minded focus, and make a public announcement. This is akin to someone telling someone else, "What do you have against writing your name? Just write your name at the bottom of this page. Are you embarrassed of your name?" As though what is written on the page is irrelevant to his signature at the bottom.
Erez' request was not an innocent one in הלכות הלוית המת, it was a lack of understanding of what a Yeshiva is. He is not to blame. But it should be self-understood that Yeshivos are run by those who do know what a Yeshiva is.
Great job. Not sure it will get through because most people have views based on their feelings and pile in the logic after said foundation but hopefully stern is a smart dude and can argue with the actual facts on the table
If you would bring two opinions of great Talmidei Chachamim and the background behind the psak, and then attempt to understand, that would be one thing.
But comments like yours are just enough to make sfeikos, to create doubt that produces inaction. It is unproductive, nobody will actually attend a funeral thanks to it. Because there is no real tochen to it - no name of another Talmid Chacham, no explanation of his opinion. It is just muddying the waters for no discernible purpose.
My comment was writtten completely independently of Erez's request and I had no knowledge of what he has done until very recently and indeed had not heard of him until yesterday.
I have no time now to make any response to your long comment for which I thank you but massively disagree. . IY'H I will reply on some future occasion if/when time permits. I guarantee you will not like it. A guten Shabbos.
Beautifully written. I am actually awed by the presentation and the total breakdown of every issue.
My only question is, while I agree that Chareidim should not second guess their mission, is there a place for them to show support simply so the rest of the Jews in Israel so they would be a bit less hated? The commander asked Rav Dov for bachurim to show up to funerals. While I agree the bachurim gain nothing from it, and it doesn't protect any more Jews, would it help ease the tension a bit?
One comment on slifkins post today, putting Rav Dov in the same picture as President Gay, as if there is a connection between the two, is the most disgusting headline I've ever seen.
On the old blog, this post https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/is-there-overlooked-jewish-farrakhan?utm_source=%2Fsearch%2Flouis%2520farakhan&utm_medium=reader2 originally had a picture of Rav Ovadia Yosef next to, lehavdil alfei havdalos, Louis Farakhan. He got so called out for it by even his MODOX readers that he eventually split up the pictures. But the point of the article is to compare Rav Ovadia to Farakhan, and he still has both their pics, just separated. He seems to get a thrill comparing Gedolei Yisroel to the dregs of scociety. He's a disturbed person, no other way to explain it.
Wow, I see. I didn't follow him yet to know. I think his Modox friends didn't stand up this time because even they aren't spending 8 bucks a month to be able to comment on anti chareidi posts, so we are left with the people who don't care.
Of course bachurim gain. Going to a funeral is praised in משלי because it humbles you. its also inspiring to hear about the sacrifice of those killed על קידוש ה. Sharing in the ציבור's pain is the עיקר now (you can claim that going to a funeral is not the best method but thats another story)
The question is wether a yeshiva is טיבת נוח or a מגדל אור. The torahs goal is to create an entire nation of עובדי ה. Not a
small group of elitists in a monastery. Even though someone in yeshiva needs to contribute with their learning (i believe they need to receive military training but lets say youre correct), that learning cannot come at the expense of connection to כלל ישראל. I wonder if rav landau weighed the danger on the other side-disconnection from כלל ישראל like the remarks of shreiber.
If you don't trust Reb Dov to make a simple cheshbon like that, then the issue is something else entirely.
Before you accept that a wise man put his head to deciding the issue, and did not throw out some words off the cuff, you will not understand them. You may not be required to agree with him, but your disagreement is worthless if it is merely based on a misunderstanding.
I remember one of those drifters who used to go from Yeshiva to Yeshiva selling their ideas when I was a bochur. One of them was sure Einstein was a fool, and E=MC2 wasn't even such a major breakthrough. Comments like yours are eerily reminiscent.
But we see such issues in his camp. Id hope he addresses this danger more than other communities less plagued by it. Assuming he weighed the other side, does he address it explicitly? If not i cant but help think that solidarity with the ציבור is just not his priority. His wisdom in torah notwithstanding.
While I like Zichron's post, I don't like his answers here. When I said they don't gain, I meant it that no more than another levaya. והחי יתן אל לבו is by any tragedy. However, I do think sharing in the country's pain is important, and not doing so, can send a message to the broader public that Chareidim don't care about anything that doesn't happen in their own community. Rav Dov is no fool, and I am sure he knows this. (The whole thing of "you don't trust someone smarter" was never my thing, since if you never question you'll stay the same dumb guy.) He obviously feels that while such intentions may be good, it still risks people second guessing their mission, and therefore feels there is more to lose than gain. That does not take away from it principle issue if there is value to bachurim publicly showing that they feel for the tragedies in other communities. This is an old problem in the Chareidi/Dati dynamic in Israel, that there is no such thing as a self isolated issue, and everything is because of some other threat.
Your comment in brackets is a misrepresentation of what I wrote. This is a common mistake of people, and you fell in like they do.
Nobody said 'never question', nobody said 'trust someone smarter'. That mischaracterization is often a way to deflect from the real point.
When we know somebody who is a. much smarter, b. much more experienced, and c. much more invested in the outcome, thinks differently to us, it is time to rethink. Not to repeat the argument, but to try and understand where the other person is coming from. When we just use his words to disprove him, or claim that he is ignoring a part of the story, or generally dismiss his attitude, we are doing truth a disservice. Without a genuine attempt to understand the other side, your disagreement is worthless.
Question, but question with an attitude that accepts that you won't be successful in disproving him without some serious thought.
About attending Levayos. This is not really connected to the Charedi/non-Charedi divide. Bochurim in Yeshiva are expected to live an isolated Torah-only life for those years. Not just separating from the outside world, but even the inside world. The insularity expected from a Yeshiva bochur is also from Tomchei Shabbos volunteering, davening in a Shtiebel, attending political rallies, or cooking a Shabbos seuda at home. (I am not saying all of these are strictly forbidden, or that people follow the directives regarding all of them) The belief is that the younger years should be wholly devoted to Gemara Tosfos. Only when they are older can they use that chinuch to participate in the world, either in the Rabbinate, or in some other capacity. Even if they go work in the outside world, the years of intense learning serve as the bulwark against secularism, materialism, and other outside influences. I am not saying it is completely successful, but that is the belief with which he is working.
In this case, when the situation is so dire, the Roshei Yeshiva realize that they cannot ignore the outside world completely. Yidden are dying, it is callous and terrible middos to say that all we do is learn, we don't care about the outside world. Which is why every single Rosh Yeshiva, Mashgiach, Magid Shiur and Rosh Kollel in the world is urging his Talmidim to be cognizant of the dangers and suffering and use that to improve Tefilla, learning, and MIddos Tovos. They are not isolating totally, but also not giving up on their ideals, which have to outlive a temporary war.
But dosent not helping out at home or doing חסד in devotion to לימוד התורה mean that youre not actively working in your מידות? Ive heard that even Rav Moshe held that a bachur should spend 4 hrs in a week helping others. Back in chafetz chaim (before my aliyah) i heard a משל that if your מידות arent actively practiced theyll atrophy.
Personally, I agree with you. Yeshivos do not educate in בין אדם לחבירו.
But the reasoning behind it is that these years are devoted to self-improvement. When those years are successful, the 'graduate' will be better positioned to help others and work on his middos.
That is the shitah, as far as I understand it.
Perhaps I will write another post explaining the point better. Reb Yerucham Levovitz has shmuessn on the Bereishis Parshiyos called האבות שמרו טבע that explain a little bit the background behind the shitah.
The reason I said to question is because many things said by gedolim these days are more about a practical strategy than principle, and therefore the right way to THINK is not always so clear.
I agree with you in your last two paragraphs, but what I question is for people who don't understand how that plays out as far as their respect for lomdei torah, which for the same token I question not going to the rally, even if our own value system would be not to go.
I didn't mean to bring up the rally for conversation, more for reference as there is a difference between action and hashkafa. I agree we are not aware of the whole story, and it's not like it's an issue I am so perturbed with.
I'm pleased, because if you would walk around with your eyes open, it is 90% unsuccessful. What is successful is having money or marrying into money. In 90% of the time, that is all that matters to be able to learn well throughout life a life a life of dikduk b'mitzvos. Which is of course why most the 'top' bochurim look for money. And most of the 'top' rabbonim look for money for their children.
You have a point, but it wasn't like to whole Chareidi world went to the funeral of the chareidi victims last week in Jerusalem either. It's not as much of a thing I guess. Could be that's why they'll see people who want to go to other funerals as more of a national thing, which chareidim obviously avoid.
I did speak to an American Gadol this week who feels it's more about the confusion among youngsters who may misunderstand the motives but of course its important to be נושא בעול for people in pain or סכנה.
I sort of agree, but why can't we for our solidarity by learning and davening? As far as of personal middos go, this will help. Is that not enough because that's something *they* don't understand? Is that something that we need to worry about and give up on our sole mission for? Believe me, they'll hate us either way because nothing we do will be good enough until we adopt their value system
When you say "they'll hate us either way", that is only true for rabid secularists who are consumed with rage and resentment, like our dear friend on the other blog. But there many thousands of other people who appreciate these gestures very much. That doesn't mean it's worth it if it can lead to undermining of yeshivos,it's a judgement call which is precisely the type of thing that calls for Daas Torah.
Well said, we are NEVER tying to satisfy those guys, but then there's the "silent majority" of the Dati community. Honestly, the fact that we don't join in any way probably bothers them more than avoiding army service.
There's לימוד and there is מעשה. Also, anything done just as part of a routine doesn't show anything, no matter how noble or what people have in mind. Yes, there is extra learning and davening, but in the large scheme of things, not much looks different. There could be different ways of doing things too. Like Ponevizh, who anyway flies a flag on Yom Ha'atzmaut, why not put up something now. (people who are against that should obviously not compromise their value system.)
I'm not against flying an Israeli flag and showing solidarity. I'm even okay with going to a rally once in as while. But not the call to change the structure of the yeshiva system. We need to think of other ways. We need to not become complacent.
I agree with you fully in that. I didn't mean necessarily going to funerals, nor did I mean changing the structure. Any way that can send a message would be nice, without damaging our value system.
Would going to a funeral or two change the entire yeshiva system? Yeshivot take off for things like עצרת תפילה. Think of אדירי התורה in america. Think of the occasional hafganot (even if there peleg, thats still a major segment of the litvishe world)
this article is signature זכרון - us insiders who know and appreciate what Torah is need not falter, or answer to the outsider who will never get it. they never will and never can until they enter our world as insiders; then they will see what Torah is all about. and we invite them with open arms. but to those who get it, התחזקו, on you the world truly rests!
This is why one of the קנייני התורה is אמונת חכמים. This does not mean blind belief, or asking a Gadol what name to give your child. This means appreciating that חכמים act and talk with חכמה. If we can casually discount the words of Rabbi Akiva by claiming he was having a bad day, or he was influenced by his son the Misnaged, or that he had other biases affecting his opinion, we are basically saying that the חכמה is not the all-encompassing feature of his works and life. There is no way we will understand and appreciate a מערכה of Rabbi Akiva Eger when we start with this attitude. And כל שכן when it is regarding Chazal. Even when it is only about science, we must start with the idea that they were חכמים who spoke חכמה. Then we can discuss what they meant. We might find answers to the contradictions we come up with.
Reb Dov is no Rabbi Akiva Eger, but the principle is the same.
Dec 15, 2023·edited Dec 15, 2023Liked by זכרון דברים
Right. This is one the huge skills we learn in iyun. We see the words of the rishonim and acharonim and originally have strong netios the other way but we know that their "lights were on" and as we get more into the sugya, we begin to see where their chochma was coming from. And even if we ultimately side with the shach, we appreciate where the taz was coming from and that he was holding on the inyanim far greater than we ever will.
Those with no experience in iyun have no connection to this kind of emunas chachomim and therefore discount everything they hear from these great people. Nebach.
This doesn't even mean our gedolim are always right. But it does mean that we take their opinions seriously
Your puny brain matches up to the 'gedolim'? And rabbis that go out on a limb and argue with the leaders, yet mantain their position on the 'approved list', are few and far between. Normally only when money or yichus is involved.
Anyways, there's a difference between a worldwide leader, a "gadol," and a personal rebbi. Most people who have a normal functional rebbi, of which there are plenty upon plenty, can get advice on their personal level, for their personal life and story. Those rabbeim know when to follow the gedolim (and which gedolim at that) and when to advise a bit differently. This is not even "against" the gedolim either because advice for the masses is simply not always applicable to yechidim, or even for a specific mass of talmidim. And to decide these matters, one needs to have the proper appreciation for the gedolim (any rebbi who doesn't have this straight is out of the picture), as well as the brains to know what to do in a given situation. But to you, everything is black on white so you should not use your very black on white brain, but you should find a rebbi who you won't be screaming at all day. Gl with that tho...
"This means appreciating that חכמים act and talk with חכמה."
But only 'chachomim' on the aproved list, right? And who creates the aproved list? Other 'chachomim' who broadly hold the same hashkofos. Hmmm. When the gerer rebbe refuses to condemn the violence and intimidation against Rav Shaul's followers, is that 'acting and talking' with chochmoh? Or is that acting like a authotartian dictator?
Without accountability the system becomes as corrupt as any other. The skverer rebbe uses sterling silver cutlery and lives a life of luxury whilst many of his crowd are on wellfare.
In the old days rebbes would sit for hours with penniless almonos. You try today getting to see most rebbes and roshei yeshivos for more than a few minutes without promising a donation to some mosed.
"gedolim' have not conqured their yeitzor horoh, have they? And Chazal tell us they have greated YH then everybody else. Real gedolim stay our of politics, learn quietly and live thier lives without wielding the bell, book and candle.
When you write a comment that is totally irrelevant, you should expect a prescription in response.
The issue here was Gedolei Yisroellike Reb Dov Landau, and you expect us to deal with Rebbes!?!? One thing has nothing to do with the other, and either you knew that or you have no way of understanding it.
Al we have is your boichvei. For which pepto bismol is considered quite effective. Perhaps it is sold under a different name in England.
A distinction without merit. Both are founded on 'da'as torah' with infallibility granted to the leadership. However corrupt they may be. Any discussions about issues with the leadership, any attempt to form alternatives for those who are not happy, are dealt with ruthlessly, whatever the merits.
After looking around some more, I don't think we should judge this guy Erez Eshel, he was apparently mentally scarred by the war. He went into several yeshivos unannounced, wearing his gun, and started yelling at the students, and in at least one case, threatened to SHOOT the Rosh Yeshiva. https://hm-news.co.il/408578/
I am not so good with spoken ivrit but was able to understand the whole video at .75 speed, and I was impressed at how Rav Dov spoke to him with such compassion, while holding his ground without budging an inch. This is Gadlus.
We should have him in our tefilos for a refuah sheleima as well.
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what's with the arrows btw?
He was still more respectful to the Rosh Yeshiva then .....others.
What's his mother's name
Erez Eshel is a politician, that all
https://www.hamichlol.org.il/%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%96_%D7%90%D7%A9%D7%9C
Great post Zichron! Somebody sent us the following email.
"If I would be able to comment on today's post, it would be the follows.
Natan believes the army protects. His response to their utter failure on 10/7? Leave the army, and start learning? No way, add more soldiers!
But if you believe torah protects, then what should your response be? Expand Kolelim? No way, stop learning and join the army!
Noone ever said consistency was his thing..."
There is a good comment from "Shimon" (is he the only religious person to pay for RJ?) on the latest post: https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/firing-for-failure/comment/45379071
"This post is a logical fallacy. There is only so much Torah learning can do to protect mechalelei Shabbos, atheists and other reshoim. Thus the October 7th massacre does not prove the failure of Torah learning to protect."
I would like to expound on this. I don't think Shimon means the clueless masses, the tinokos shenishbu, although tinok shenishba is certainly not a get-out-of-jail-free card. I think he is referring to the leaders, the intellectuals, the public figures, who ought to know more, and who inspire their fellow secularists to ignore or be kofer in the Torah. These people are the most responsible for a great portion of the death and danger that Israel faces, and the righteous are in the position of doing damage control. But even worse are the ones who not only inspire kefira, but spread hatred against the Shomrei Torah and Lomdei Torah. Such people are certainly the greatest friends of Hamas, and have the most blood on their hands.
Slifkin's post is so much nonsense, it is too difficult to separate them all. But I don't think this is the correct point. On a boat filled with עובדי עבודה זרה, Yonah said בשלי הסערה הזאת.
He seems to think that Reb Dov Landau applied for the job of Gadol Hador, and benefits from it. He seems to think that Reb Dov finds it hard to give it up. Reb Dov has no benefit or interest in it, it is one big headache. But he sees the generation and realizes that he must step up. What should he do now? Give up his salary that he receives from the World Jewish Congress for being Gadol Hador? Return the keys to the corporate bathroom and company car and ski chalet? He still has the achrayus to ensure that Torah is kept and not distorted. Nothing changed.
And his proof that the lack of Torah learning couldn't be a factor in this tragedy is the pinnacle of logic. There is more Torah learned than at any other time in history, which equals to 'sufficient Torah learned to prove his point'. How A = B is anyone's guess. There are more doctors nowadays than at any time in history. Proof that medicine doesn't work, because how come people still get sick? And this is besides the fact that he has no idea what went on in history and how many people learned in history.
Then he's on to the claim that the Chilonim did it. If so, why didn't they do kiruv on them? Like the only reason to do kiruv is to prevent pogroms. We knew that there were chilonim in the world for many years. And we still decided that kiruv was not the primary focus. For various reasons. What does 10/7 have to do with anything? How should that change anything? We still focus on Talmud Torah, believing that kiruv will not be successful without a strong backbone of Lomdei Torah.
But his twisted logic doesn't end. He is backing the claim of Erez Eshel, who ' has been trying to persuade chareidi yeshivos to enlist in the army, and at the very least to connect with the nation by attending funerals of fallen soldiers and visiting the injured'. Because otherwise they are to blame for the fact that 'they are clearly fully responsible for the fact that virtually none of the hundreds of soldiers who were killed and continue to be killed are from the charedi community - and fathers of large families, already of an older age, are in reserve duty because there aren’t enough soldiers otherwise'. No more lives are lost whether they enlist or not, but he thinks we should take responsibility for that. But how will 'attending funerals' change anything? If it's about lives, what will anyone gain by us visiting the injured? Of course, the purpose isn't lives, it is breaking down that barrier that was placed between the Lomdei Torah and the street. It is about forcing the Lomdei Torah to stop their cloistered life, because that somehow bothers people. No regard for the shita behind the cloistering and no real regard for people's lives. Just an attempt to force others to change their way of life.
People who don't learn Torah are not just amei ha'aretz. Their cognitive abilities are rusted too, and they come up with this kind of confusing logic.
"Reb Dov has no benefit or interest in it, it is one big headache. But he sees the generation and realizes that he must step up."
That's not really an answer to anything. It's very likely that many of the firings will be of career officers who have devoted their lives and endangered themselves on behalf of the state of Israel. Failures have consequences, especially catastrophically deadly failures. The fellow at the top is expected to step aside and allow someone else to step up. Basically, Dr Slifkin is making a le'shitascha argument. Quotes below.
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"Then we come to the 10/7 massacred and the charedi community. Now, personally, I don’t think that they have any responsibility for what happened. (On the other hand, they are clearly fully responsible for the fact that virtually none of the hundreds of soldiers who were killed and continue to be killed are from the charedi community - and fathers of large families, already of an older age, are in reserve duty because there aren’t enough soldiers otherwise.) But from a charedi perspective, they do have responsibility."
"You can’t have it both ways. Either you are the ones creating Israel’s security, or you’re not. If you are, then you have to take blame for failure."
What are you demanding, practically?
If the Chavrei Knesset are called to vote on something of great import for the Charedi community, and Reb Dov knows that the vote needs to go one way for the future of Klal Yisroel, should he keep his mouth shut? How can he? Where would his achrayus go?
Gadol Hador is not a job, a career, or a reward. It isn't comparable to a politician, general, CEO, founder, askan, or Gabbai in Shul. It is an achrayus, it is the feeling that it is impossible for him to stand by when something needs to be done. And the word 'needs' is not the correct one. A person needs food to live, a country needs security. The 'need' referred to is a cosmic one, something that touches the entire universe and its background. All olamos are waiting for people to learn Torah, and protecting this is more important than merely providing food for the hungry. How can he keep quiet about this?
This is not comparable to IDF career officers, even those that are ehrlich.
This is besides the other stupidities spewed, as though he bears responsibility for G-d's actions. But that needs another post.
*I'm* not demanding anything. I posted Dr Slifkin's demands in my previous comment.
But I will say, that if the charedi world is that dependant on one man's advice, they're in really bad shape. Fortunately, I don't think it's quite that bad......
No one thinks they are relying on one person. Zichron is responding to slifkin who decided that he should resign which is stupid. Should yirmiyahu have 'stepped down" when the beis hamikdash was destroyed? Obviously not. In fact, if more people were devoted to torah like our gedolim we'd all be in better shape. So they should continue their influence if anything, not step down
Hey, Shim! Look who the wind blew in!
The intellectuals are obviously the most at fault, but I don't think the fact that the masses are tinokos shenishbu should absolve them of their role in this. They may not have the din of a rasha on an individual level, but the fact that so much sin is transpiring nowadays, and hatred for Torah and Yiddishkeit is so prevalent, likely creates a tremendous kitrug on Klal Yisroel.
Do you still pay a monthly subscription to RJ?
I stopped a few months ago.
He was banned, why should he anymore.
Self-banned, I believe.
Nope, he was banned by RDNS himself, no different than when you were.
Are you sure מכרכר בכל עוז was banned? I don't remember any such incident. Do you know which post?
Huh. I must've missed that one somehow.
a gay pride parade in ארצינו הקדושה, which is the beis Hashem, and the frightening disregard for HKBH on a national level in hashem's house is more than disgraceful. even if not everyone is at fault per se, as you point out, there needs to be teshuva. not blaming anyone particularly, but some people should be pointing fingers inward instead of at the chareidim for goodness sake.
but then again, this is the basis of their whole worldview - chareidim = bad; they are the only ones who need to be fixed, we, wordly folk =good; we can continue on our merry way.
the chareidim are not staying complacent here. they are doing teshuva, or at least making moves in that direction. many others are making no moves. because teshuva and HKBH was never a value to begin with. וי לן
btw the reason i'm not going to give a dime is because to begin with i'm always torn if i should be on that blog to begin with. it's probably (read: fishore) lashon hara at it's finest and there's really no heter. my opinion of reb moshe shapiro, reb elyashic, reb chaim kanievsky, זכר צדיקים קדושים וטהורים אוהבי השי"ת יראי אלקים שונאי בצע לברכה and others were actually damaged for a while, solely because of his lashon hara. bH i am older and wiser and i know how to deflect, but i imagine it can still have a רושם. the only reason i continue, possibly wrongly, is because i know he is doing it anyways, and people like my old self are reading and need to hear the other side. so i go on his comment section and argue and try to restore to people on the fringe that there is another outlook. (that is the power of this blog, offensive name and all - a witty place where we are just as much ליצנים as they, while upholding the torah values. so chazak ve'amatz.) but if we are kicked off, it may be better not to try defending the honor of those which will only lead to great bizayon in the eyes of our greatest leaders' detractors, as per hilchos lashon hara, not to praise in front of an enemy... so anyways, i won't be paying to do something i'm not sure is acceptable at all anyways. (although, perhaps lashon hara is only a mussar and made up chumra by the chafetz chaim as some of those simpletons think - https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/when-lashon-hara-is-mitzvah)
Natan's response to Shimon was especially retarded. To paraphrase: Charedim are still to blame because they didn't do enough kiruv.
Rationalists don't believe in bechira and rather believe we are all automatons and that compelling kiruv by seasoned professionals would automatically and immediately persuade even the most jaded secularists. Even those Jews that rise to the level of outright evil will make teshuva on the spot after a few words of kiruv-tinged divrei Torah.
Slifkin: Therefore the charedim are still wrong, and I am still right, even if not for the reasons I originally claimed.
His latest post was so cringe omg. We *do* take responsibility. They're why we call for teshuva during these times. We acknowledge that this is all Hashem sending His people a message to be better. A guy who doesn't get find more ways to not get it. I'm glad at least Shimon is there calling him out
The most ridiculous thing about his post is that his 'logical' conclusion is that all chareidi gedolim are lying frauds .No serious intellectual (or frum jew) could make such a claim at the very least with getting the response of the other side first.
He starts with this weird projection that we don't really believe what we say and all his arguments "follow" from that.
Allow me to describe how most people work. There are two sides of as political spectrum. The loudest advocate of side A simply does not get side B. He thinks, in his great wisdom that what the other side is proposing is so prosposterous that is not possible for anyone to actually believe that it can be true.
Take trans ideology. I disagree with the movement for various reasons. But I strongly get where they're coming from (not for now on the deetz). Most political pundits really don't get the other side (or at least put on that face for loyal viewership). So their starting point is that this ideology is crazy. Following that, all they need to do is point out all of the flaws (sports, bathrooms, people who are taking it etc) and they have a winning case. But the win is only for them and those who start with that assumption. Anyone who doesn't think trans ideology is ludicrous sees only craziness from a stupid, stubborn other side who just doesn't get it. I use trans ideology, which actually is wrong for the most part, to bring out the point: If you want to argue with an opposing side, and I mean argue for real, the first step is *not* to find the weak links. Because to someone who gets the point, these weak links are minor kinks that need to be smoothed out, nothing more. What you need to start with us getting into the opposing sides actual head.
Back to slifkin, he has expressed a number of times that he thinks we don't actually believe that the Torah is of value and that it protects. Starting from that assumption, he sits back and demolished his already demolished opponent. His mistake is that we are not demolished except in his own eyes.
Very well said!
This is true in politics as well as in Hashkafah, as you point out.
Someone who cannot separate himself from these biases, will never manage to have an intellectual conversation.
Aristotle/Einstein/some chacham either did or didn't say, "the ability to entertain an idea without accepting it is the hallmark of an educated mind." Learning a Sugya, understanding a Hava Amina that you know is not going to last, is one way to become 'educated'.
Indeed. I attempted to do so here. https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/daas-torah-vs-daas-shotim/comment/45467769
Exactly, he is effectively fighting an ideology which he himself created. And as a result even if he does try ''fight'' it (which he keeps giving this cringy one liners at the end of his posts how big the challenge is that 'they' face ) he will never get anywhere purely because he is fighting an imaginary ideology.
Sorry, but strongly disagree with the last line: "Yeshiva education that may not be interrupted by Army service, Tzitizis tying, or attendance at Levayos"
We interrupt learning all the time for levayos. Someone who did al kiddush hashem deserves a high levaya attendance rate. That fact that we don't go shows that we do not value the soldiers sacrifice. I think that someone learning doesn't need to go serve, but they should go to levayos, especially of lone soldiers.
You quoted half a sentence. Which is why you disagree.
Come to Beis Hamedrash, sit down and learn the basics, get to know how Gemara works and what it teaches us, and then maybe you will appreciate the benefits of the hyper-focus of a Yeshiva education that may not be interrupted by Army service, Tzitizis tying, or attendance at Levayos.
How condescending. I grew up in chareidi yeahivos and learned in kollel. I know what Gemara is and what it does. I also know we leave the beis medrash for levayos of gedolim and I believe a soldier who died al kiddush hashem and has no one attending his levaya should be included in that category.
The Yeshiva years are for single-minded devotion to Talmud Torah, understanding Torah, being trained in Torah, and treating Torah with utmost respect. Not lip-service respect, but appreciation that the entire world depends on the seemingly tiny difference between Sevara A and Sevara B.
Afterwards, when the Talmid has been trained, he can rebalance his life to include the other pursuits for which he was born. He has an ingrained appreciation for Torah that no amount of working for a living, doing chessed, or askonus can uproot (if he doesn't allow them to).
A levaya of a Gadol is an expression of Kavod Hatorah, it is no contradiction to this focus.
The levaya of a soldier, even as we are grateful for the benefits we derive from his service and altruism, and respect the כפרת עוונות he receives by dying at the hands of an ערל, is still not an expression of כבוד התורה and is a contradiction to this focus.
If you wish to disagree with me, you must either:
1) show that singleminded focus is not important, or
2) show that a levaya of a soldier is not a contradiction to this.
If all you can say is how important the soldier's levaya is, you are not actually disagreeing with me.
that was a good response:)
personally, i agree that many yeshivos end up with people that are a bit too single-minded. but i'd only mention that with the obvious caveat that i'm not one who goes around bashing the best system in the world. and more importantly, here is where the importance of a personal rebbi comes in. almost no one who has a true gadol as a rebbi has this issue (and said gadol doesn't need to be 90 years old. there are plenty of wise young talmidei chachomim rabbeim out there. this doesn't mean that there aren't bad eggs or misguided eggs or clueless eggs, but i think the system is superb). most of them are well rounded people who know when to tow this line. and they know their talmidim enough to know what to tell them when and how. so it's not a taina on the system. the issue is that there are many who don't find themselves a rebbi and generalize. the point is that there is a balance between giving over the values the strngest (iyun hatorah, kesher with Hashem) and other values, which are nt at all contradictions but b&w individuals need help separating these things.
(one last point, this rebbi doesn't need to be someone who he hangs around all day. it can be from a few minutes a week. someone who he considered a מלאך הש' צבקות and he learns from him tremendously. and one can have more than one also.)
i wrote that quickly w/out checking over so i may hafta edit later, but i hope it was clear. gotta run!
Ash, I don't know if you live in EY, but I do, and there's no such thing as a לויה of a soldier that no one goes to.
(I don't go many לוויות because I'm a כהן, but I know what's going on)
Ya zd I didn't like that response either. I disagree with ash about a lot of things but he does get it for the most part. I used to be confused about ash's position but it seems like he is one of us, although he can use some education when it comes to science and stuff but regarding his practical chashivus for torah he seems to be one of us - ash, correct me if I'm wrong...
I'd say punkt farkert- I'm machshiv Torah but I DO know the science, which is why i am convinced an approach like R Slifkins is essentially correct when it comes to scientific matters. People like Happy basically just say "have emuna its wrong" or "it's speculative" when anyone who actually knows how science works will find that unconvincing.
you must have misunderstood, sorry if i wasn't clear. i know that you are proficient in the sciences. i meant an education about the torah's view of science. i already shared what i think on your substack - https://daastorah.substack.com/p/is-the-torah-divine-298/comment/44947108 (i guess similar to happy's view)
my point here was just that many of us are initially confused by where you stand in this whole yeshivish/rational thing, until we "get to know you better" and see that you are on our side, only that the questions science poses really bother you. i believe that someone like zd is confused by you and thinks of you like an antagonist and an outsider, and that your comment above was coming from that angle - which, if so, his fiery response was appropriate. personally, my impression of you is that in a comment like the one above your opinion is just as valid as an insider; hence my rejection of his tone.
was that more clear?
now, am i wrong in my assessment?
*punkt farkert not punky farmers!
lol 😂😂😂
I have no idea who this godol is, but telling students NOT to go a funeral is disgraceful. And the article and subsequent supportive comments only add to that awful decision.
According to the mishna, the world survives because of 3 things, and acts of loving kindness is one of them,, and burying the dead is the greatest mitzvah of them all, and then go comfort the mourners. I bet when this godol dies his students will be at the funeral. Tsk, tsk, taking time off from Torah study.
An article was written, based on someone's understanding of the words of a wise man.
You can disagree, of course. But this isn't some kind of college, where wearing a tweed jacket and a bowtie allows you to spew whatever nonsense you want. You are expected, on irrationalist modoxism, to back up your claims and specify them.
Which part of the article is 'disgraceful'? What should be changed? How is the survival of the world the issue here?
Why don't you re-read what I wrote?
Your comments don't seem to be related to anything I said. And I said it clearly.
Cheers
I explained why not to go to a funeral. You ignored my explanation, merely calling it disgraceful. Which part of my explanation do you disagree with?
Then you misquote a Mishna, as though your misrepresentation had anything to do with the subject at hand.
The Mishna doesn't mention 'survival', it mentions 'standing'. But even if the world 'survives' on those three things, there is still no obligation on Yeshiva bochurim to go out and attend every funeral possible. We have a Halachic process, and as long as there is a Chevra Kadisha in town, they can stay in Beis Hamedrash and learn.
So you basically said nothing, just that you feel that it is disgraceful. That is your problem, nothing to do with anybody else. You have no right to force your feelings on others.
When the founding fathers decided to set up a democracy, they were famously challenged, "what? even stupid people??" That's the famous quote, but really the concern was that uninformed people would vote. Policy would become something that is decided by whims and feelings while there are real facts on the ground that need to be taken into account. So in short, welcome to politics, zd!
pick your scenario: if a gadol who was a rebbi of bachurim, and was asked (a) by a specific individual (b) who is truly serious about his learning and (c) felt that it would help his nosei be'ol to go to a levaya (d) (and worked it out with his chavrusa), the gadol probably agreed that he should, and if not there was a specific reason, such as they were in middle of a particularly intense sugya which couldn't be tampered with (in which you can disagree but at least hear where he is coming from. such as the fact that a good bachur going to a levaya can cause a rifyon in the whole bm).
change any one of those variables and the reason not go is easily understood (although it then depends on circumstance as well, but we can give credit that the rebbi knows his bachurim and decided because of so many factors that it was not the right thing for this boy)
All could be, but you are just speculating.
Not a fair response. You were the one speculating.
The actual truth will be based on how much faith we put in our rabbeim and leaders and how decent we think they are. If you a priori decided that they never know what they're doing, this conversation is DOA
The only speculation i made was that if this "godol' died, the students will go to the funeral. I believe that speculation has some empirical evidence to support it.
Cheers,
Please. Let's not pretend there were no implications.
I am shocked at your comment:" If the Yeshiva bochur goes out to levayos of soldiers, or ties Tzitzis for the newly inspired foxhole believers, he has disparaged his own contribution to the success of the mission.: " Halvoyas ha'mes is especially important for someone who is moser nefesh for klall yosroel, besides the hakoras hatov required and IMHO massively overrides someone who is learning and can make up the time later.
I do not have time to repeat the full story but R' Shlomo Zalman Auerbach z"tl referred to the buried soldiers on Har Herzl ( about 200 metres from his Kol Torah Yeshivah) as "kedoshim" and in answer to a bochur who wanted to go to the Galil to daven at the kevorim of the kedoshim there - said he went to those kedoshim across the road (or nearby) i.e those on Har Herzl.
So you have a Halachic or a Hashkafic claim that Yeshiva bochurim should go out to levayos of soldiers, in recognition of the wonderful work of the soldier.
Fine, that is your opinion, based on your understanding of Torah.
Are you cognizant of the fact that people who spend their lives learning Torah are more likely to reach the truth than you? If you were not explained otherwise, are you willing to accept that a person like Reb Dov knows better than the average person, and his opinion should be followed?
If you can accept that, we can move to the next step. Now, let us try and understand. There is a Mitzvah to be melave dead people, and there is a נימוס ודרך ארץ to recognize the contribution of someone who made the ultimate sacrifice for us. Why are we not obligated to go to the Levaya for that reason?
Then, you make another point. You claim 'you can make up the time later'.
Point No. 2 actually distracts from Point No. 1. The second point is based on a misunderstanding of what learning in Yeshiva is, and the singleminded focus necessary to reach true Gadlus Batorah. It's not about the time spent, and it never really is.
But Point No. 1 is an important one, even if the story with Reb Shlomo Zalman is probably fabricated, or at least exaggerated, and quite irrelevant. And this is the crux of the matter. If we were dealing with a question of going to a Levaya, your sevara is absolutely correct. But we are dealing with a request from someone that the Yeshivos break down their barriers, disturb their single minded focus, and make a public announcement. This is akin to someone telling someone else, "What do you have against writing your name? Just write your name at the bottom of this page. Are you embarrassed of your name?" As though what is written on the page is irrelevant to his signature at the bottom.
Erez' request was not an innocent one in הלכות הלוית המת, it was a lack of understanding of what a Yeshiva is. He is not to blame. But it should be self-understood that Yeshivos are run by those who do know what a Yeshiva is.
Great job. Not sure it will get through because most people have views based on their feelings and pile in the logic after said foundation but hopefully stern is a smart dude and can argue with the actual facts on the table
Rav landau is not the only talmid chacham. Im sure many great rabanim would agree.
I address this point in my post.
If you would bring two opinions of great Talmidei Chachamim and the background behind the psak, and then attempt to understand, that would be one thing.
But comments like yours are just enough to make sfeikos, to create doubt that produces inaction. It is unproductive, nobody will actually attend a funeral thanks to it. Because there is no real tochen to it - no name of another Talmid Chacham, no explanation of his opinion. It is just muddying the waters for no discernible purpose.
The doubt can get them to think of following other gedolim.
My comment was writtten completely independently of Erez's request and I had no knowledge of what he has done until very recently and indeed had not heard of him until yesterday.
I have no time now to make any response to your long comment for which I thank you but massively disagree. . IY'H I will reply on some future occasion if/when time permits. I guarantee you will not like it. A guten Shabbos.
Looking forward
That's not the point of the story.
The point of the story was that the גרשז"א didn't want to תלמיד to go to קברי צדיקים at all.
That's what הרב יוסף אליהו wrote at the end of אורו של עולם.
https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%99%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%A3_%D7%90%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%94%D7%95_(%D7%A8%D7%91_%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%95%D7%A4%D7%A8)
(That's for anyone who will claim that he is חרדי)
Beautifully written. I am actually awed by the presentation and the total breakdown of every issue.
My only question is, while I agree that Chareidim should not second guess their mission, is there a place for them to show support simply so the rest of the Jews in Israel so they would be a bit less hated? The commander asked Rav Dov for bachurim to show up to funerals. While I agree the bachurim gain nothing from it, and it doesn't protect any more Jews, would it help ease the tension a bit?
One comment on slifkins post today, putting Rav Dov in the same picture as President Gay, as if there is a connection between the two, is the most disgusting headline I've ever seen.
On the old blog, this post https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/is-there-overlooked-jewish-farrakhan?utm_source=%2Fsearch%2Flouis%2520farakhan&utm_medium=reader2 originally had a picture of Rav Ovadia Yosef next to, lehavdil alfei havdalos, Louis Farakhan. He got so called out for it by even his MODOX readers that he eventually split up the pictures. But the point of the article is to compare Rav Ovadia to Farakhan, and he still has both their pics, just separated. He seems to get a thrill comparing Gedolei Yisroel to the dregs of scociety. He's a disturbed person, no other way to explain it.
Wow, I see. I didn't follow him yet to know. I think his Modox friends didn't stand up this time because even they aren't spending 8 bucks a month to be able to comment on anti chareidi posts, so we are left with the people who don't care.
Yah and even the fact that this is what he thinks of when hearing the president gay story is so insane
Of course bachurim gain. Going to a funeral is praised in משלי because it humbles you. its also inspiring to hear about the sacrifice of those killed על קידוש ה. Sharing in the ציבור's pain is the עיקר now (you can claim that going to a funeral is not the best method but thats another story)
See my answer above to Mr. Stern.
This is not about Funerals. The Yerushalmi talks about a bochur who went to Yeshiva and got busy with funerals. Not in a positive fashion.
The question is wether a yeshiva is טיבת נוח or a מגדל אור. The torahs goal is to create an entire nation of עובדי ה. Not a
small group of elitists in a monastery. Even though someone in yeshiva needs to contribute with their learning (i believe they need to receive military training but lets say youre correct), that learning cannot come at the expense of connection to כלל ישראל. I wonder if rav landau weighed the danger on the other side-disconnection from כלל ישראל like the remarks of shreiber.
If you don't trust Reb Dov to make a simple cheshbon like that, then the issue is something else entirely.
Before you accept that a wise man put his head to deciding the issue, and did not throw out some words off the cuff, you will not understand them. You may not be required to agree with him, but your disagreement is worthless if it is merely based on a misunderstanding.
I remember one of those drifters who used to go from Yeshiva to Yeshiva selling their ideas when I was a bochur. One of them was sure Einstein was a fool, and E=MC2 wasn't even such a major breakthrough. Comments like yours are eerily reminiscent.
But we see such issues in his camp. Id hope he addresses this danger more than other communities less plagued by it. Assuming he weighed the other side, does he address it explicitly? If not i cant but help think that solidarity with the ציבור is just not his priority. His wisdom in torah notwithstanding.
You have no real information about how he lives day to day, what he has said, and what his attitude is.
Yet you have an opinion about his 'priority'.
Amazing!
While I like Zichron's post, I don't like his answers here. When I said they don't gain, I meant it that no more than another levaya. והחי יתן אל לבו is by any tragedy. However, I do think sharing in the country's pain is important, and not doing so, can send a message to the broader public that Chareidim don't care about anything that doesn't happen in their own community. Rav Dov is no fool, and I am sure he knows this. (The whole thing of "you don't trust someone smarter" was never my thing, since if you never question you'll stay the same dumb guy.) He obviously feels that while such intentions may be good, it still risks people second guessing their mission, and therefore feels there is more to lose than gain. That does not take away from it principle issue if there is value to bachurim publicly showing that they feel for the tragedies in other communities. This is an old problem in the Chareidi/Dati dynamic in Israel, that there is no such thing as a self isolated issue, and everything is because of some other threat.
Your comment in brackets is a misrepresentation of what I wrote. This is a common mistake of people, and you fell in like they do.
Nobody said 'never question', nobody said 'trust someone smarter'. That mischaracterization is often a way to deflect from the real point.
When we know somebody who is a. much smarter, b. much more experienced, and c. much more invested in the outcome, thinks differently to us, it is time to rethink. Not to repeat the argument, but to try and understand where the other person is coming from. When we just use his words to disprove him, or claim that he is ignoring a part of the story, or generally dismiss his attitude, we are doing truth a disservice. Without a genuine attempt to understand the other side, your disagreement is worthless.
Question, but question with an attitude that accepts that you won't be successful in disproving him without some serious thought.
About attending Levayos. This is not really connected to the Charedi/non-Charedi divide. Bochurim in Yeshiva are expected to live an isolated Torah-only life for those years. Not just separating from the outside world, but even the inside world. The insularity expected from a Yeshiva bochur is also from Tomchei Shabbos volunteering, davening in a Shtiebel, attending political rallies, or cooking a Shabbos seuda at home. (I am not saying all of these are strictly forbidden, or that people follow the directives regarding all of them) The belief is that the younger years should be wholly devoted to Gemara Tosfos. Only when they are older can they use that chinuch to participate in the world, either in the Rabbinate, or in some other capacity. Even if they go work in the outside world, the years of intense learning serve as the bulwark against secularism, materialism, and other outside influences. I am not saying it is completely successful, but that is the belief with which he is working.
In this case, when the situation is so dire, the Roshei Yeshiva realize that they cannot ignore the outside world completely. Yidden are dying, it is callous and terrible middos to say that all we do is learn, we don't care about the outside world. Which is why every single Rosh Yeshiva, Mashgiach, Magid Shiur and Rosh Kollel in the world is urging his Talmidim to be cognizant of the dangers and suffering and use that to improve Tefilla, learning, and MIddos Tovos. They are not isolating totally, but also not giving up on their ideals, which have to outlive a temporary war.
But dosent not helping out at home or doing חסד in devotion to לימוד התורה mean that youre not actively working in your מידות? Ive heard that even Rav Moshe held that a bachur should spend 4 hrs in a week helping others. Back in chafetz chaim (before my aliyah) i heard a משל that if your מידות arent actively practiced theyll atrophy.
Personally, I agree with you. Yeshivos do not educate in בין אדם לחבירו.
But the reasoning behind it is that these years are devoted to self-improvement. When those years are successful, the 'graduate' will be better positioned to help others and work on his middos.
That is the shitah, as far as I understand it.
Perhaps I will write another post explaining the point better. Reb Yerucham Levovitz has shmuessn on the Bereishis Parshiyos called האבות שמרו טבע that explain a little bit the background behind the shitah.
Helping others in learning with them (there's a תשובה in אגרות משה about this).
Interesting. I know he mentioned learning but didnt know he limited it to that.
The reason I said to question is because many things said by gedolim these days are more about a practical strategy than principle, and therefore the right way to THINK is not always so clear.
I agree with you in your last two paragraphs, but what I question is for people who don't understand how that plays out as far as their respect for lomdei torah, which for the same token I question not going to the rally, even if our own value system would be not to go.
The rally is another issue. That story is a blight on the American Yeshiva world, but I don't think the internet is the place it should be hashed out.
Suffice it to say that the conversation of the Talmidei Chachamim did not make it to the internet or Kol Kores that were disseminated.
I didn't mean to bring up the rally for conversation, more for reference as there is a difference between action and hashkafa. I agree we are not aware of the whole story, and it's not like it's an issue I am so perturbed with.
"I am not saying it is completely successful"
I'm pleased, because if you would walk around with your eyes open, it is 90% unsuccessful. What is successful is having money or marrying into money. In 90% of the time, that is all that matters to be able to learn well throughout life a life a life of dikduk b'mitzvos. Which is of course why most the 'top' bochurim look for money. And most of the 'top' rabbonim look for money for their children.
I think theyll gain more by going to the funeral of קדושים who fell על קידוש ה'.
That definetly is Rav Dov's שיקול. I wonder if all the other chareidi gedolim agree.
You have a point, but it wasn't like to whole Chareidi world went to the funeral of the chareidi victims last week in Jerusalem either. It's not as much of a thing I guess. Could be that's why they'll see people who want to go to other funerals as more of a national thing, which chareidim obviously avoid.
I did speak to an American Gadol this week who feels it's more about the confusion among youngsters who may misunderstand the motives but of course its important to be נושא בעול for people in pain or סכנה.
I sort of agree, but why can't we for our solidarity by learning and davening? As far as of personal middos go, this will help. Is that not enough because that's something *they* don't understand? Is that something that we need to worry about and give up on our sole mission for? Believe me, they'll hate us either way because nothing we do will be good enough until we adopt their value system
When you say "they'll hate us either way", that is only true for rabid secularists who are consumed with rage and resentment, like our dear friend on the other blog. But there many thousands of other people who appreciate these gestures very much. That doesn't mean it's worth it if it can lead to undermining of yeshivos,it's a judgement call which is precisely the type of thing that calls for Daas Torah.
Well said, we are NEVER tying to satisfy those guys, but then there's the "silent majority" of the Dati community. Honestly, the fact that we don't join in any way probably bothers them more than avoiding army service.
There's לימוד and there is מעשה. Also, anything done just as part of a routine doesn't show anything, no matter how noble or what people have in mind. Yes, there is extra learning and davening, but in the large scheme of things, not much looks different. There could be different ways of doing things too. Like Ponevizh, who anyway flies a flag on Yom Ha'atzmaut, why not put up something now. (people who are against that should obviously not compromise their value system.)
I'm not against flying an Israeli flag and showing solidarity. I'm even okay with going to a rally once in as while. But not the call to change the structure of the yeshiva system. We need to think of other ways. We need to not become complacent.
I agree with you fully in that. I didn't mean necessarily going to funerals, nor did I mean changing the structure. Any way that can send a message would be nice, without damaging our value system.
Would going to a funeral or two change the entire yeshiva system? Yeshivot take off for things like עצרת תפילה. Think of אדירי התורה in america. Think of the occasional hafganot (even if there peleg, thats still a major segment of the litvishe world)
this article is signature זכרון - us insiders who know and appreciate what Torah is need not falter, or answer to the outsider who will never get it. they never will and never can until they enter our world as insiders; then they will see what Torah is all about. and we invite them with open arms. but to those who get it, התחזקו, on you the world truly rests!
This is why one of the קנייני התורה is אמונת חכמים. This does not mean blind belief, or asking a Gadol what name to give your child. This means appreciating that חכמים act and talk with חכמה. If we can casually discount the words of Rabbi Akiva by claiming he was having a bad day, or he was influenced by his son the Misnaged, or that he had other biases affecting his opinion, we are basically saying that the חכמה is not the all-encompassing feature of his works and life. There is no way we will understand and appreciate a מערכה of Rabbi Akiva Eger when we start with this attitude. And כל שכן when it is regarding Chazal. Even when it is only about science, we must start with the idea that they were חכמים who spoke חכמה. Then we can discuss what they meant. We might find answers to the contradictions we come up with.
Reb Dov is no Rabbi Akiva Eger, but the principle is the same.
Right. This is one the huge skills we learn in iyun. We see the words of the rishonim and acharonim and originally have strong netios the other way but we know that their "lights were on" and as we get more into the sugya, we begin to see where their chochma was coming from. And even if we ultimately side with the shach, we appreciate where the taz was coming from and that he was holding on the inyanim far greater than we ever will.
Those with no experience in iyun have no connection to this kind of emunas chachomim and therefore discount everything they hear from these great people. Nebach.
This doesn't even mean our gedolim are always right. But it does mean that we take their opinions seriously
Are you saying our gedolim are sometimes wrong? So how do you know when they are and when they are not?
by having a rebbi and a brain
Your puny brain matches up to the 'gedolim'? And rabbis that go out on a limb and argue with the leaders, yet mantain their position on the 'approved list', are few and far between. Normally only when money or yichus is involved.
You're really annoying to talk to bro.
Anyways, there's a difference between a worldwide leader, a "gadol," and a personal rebbi. Most people who have a normal functional rebbi, of which there are plenty upon plenty, can get advice on their personal level, for their personal life and story. Those rabbeim know when to follow the gedolim (and which gedolim at that) and when to advise a bit differently. This is not even "against" the gedolim either because advice for the masses is simply not always applicable to yechidim, or even for a specific mass of talmidim. And to decide these matters, one needs to have the proper appreciation for the gedolim (any rebbi who doesn't have this straight is out of the picture), as well as the brains to know what to do in a given situation. But to you, everything is black on white so you should not use your very black on white brain, but you should find a rebbi who you won't be screaming at all day. Gl with that tho...
"This means appreciating that חכמים act and talk with חכמה."
But only 'chachomim' on the aproved list, right? And who creates the aproved list? Other 'chachomim' who broadly hold the same hashkofos. Hmmm. When the gerer rebbe refuses to condemn the violence and intimidation against Rav Shaul's followers, is that 'acting and talking' with chochmoh? Or is that acting like a authotartian dictator?
Without accountability the system becomes as corrupt as any other. The skverer rebbe uses sterling silver cutlery and lives a life of luxury whilst many of his crowd are on wellfare.
In the old days rebbes would sit for hours with penniless almonos. You try today getting to see most rebbes and roshei yeshivos for more than a few minutes without promising a donation to some mosed.
"gedolim' have not conqured their yeitzor horoh, have they? And Chazal tell us they have greated YH then everybody else. Real gedolim stay our of politics, learn quietly and live thier lives without wielding the bell, book and candle.
You should really up the dosage of pepto-bismol. Your digestive system will thank me.
Or you can actually deal with issue. But you can't, can you. Dispite all your word salads you know I have struck a raw nerve.
When you write a comment that is totally irrelevant, you should expect a prescription in response.
The issue here was Gedolei Yisroellike Reb Dov Landau, and you expect us to deal with Rebbes!?!? One thing has nothing to do with the other, and either you knew that or you have no way of understanding it.
Al we have is your boichvei. For which pepto bismol is considered quite effective. Perhaps it is sold under a different name in England.
mekor for the concept of "boich sevara":
ע' תרומת הדשן סי' שי"ז "דאין לחלק הכי מדעת הכרס" וח"ב סי' צ"ב "שהן נראין כמו סברת הכרס" וק"ל
A distinction without merit. Both are founded on 'da'as torah' with infallibility granted to the leadership. However corrupt they may be. Any discussions about issues with the leadership, any attempt to form alternatives for those who are not happy, are dealt with ruthlessly, whatever the merits.
I usually don't like these kinds of comments but honestly ijbol
Additionally ,Rav Landau very happily obliged to give the soldiers a brocha,RNS might have some wriggling to do to get out of that one...
A very good point!