1st time posting here, so first off, congrats on this whole concept. Good going HGLP, I'm sure it's fun, but you are putting a lot of things in perspective for those who don't have the tools to express where they disagree with DNS, perhaps particularly some younger, more impressionable people who are struggling with their own questions. To them, when DNS talks, it breathes life into their doubts and can be really harmful. So thank you again, I hope there will be people who are taken by the academic style of talking and can find a healthy place here.
This post, as usual, was unapologetic and clear, but I do think that there is more nuance in the issue of women in Judaism. My understanding is that many women feel like while being a mother is wonderful (as clearly outlined in this article), being a wife is where it gets hard. In Torah Judaism, the woman's job is unequivocally to be second. To listen to her husband (especially in a certain context), to treat him as malchus (a “sar”), etc. We don't find this vice versa, and though a man is supposed to respect his wife tremendously, “yoser m’gufo”, as men naturally would respect women in the old days, this obligation is, according to many poskim, in reference to her body, hence the stress on yoser mi”gufo". Besides the fact that this makes room for abuse (if even unintentional and small) even in a regular marriage which does need to be addressed to those whom it affects, the fact remains that there is an element of hierarchy. It is simply not fair to portray the Torah as viewing men and women "different but equal".
It isn't, per se, a problem that this hierarchy should exist. Hashem obviously knows that this is what is necessary to keep a family stable. In a world where women wish to be equal in status, even the role of men (as the baalei mesorah) is diminished. Also, Hashem created man to perfect himself, while He created women to perfect the men. Women are not the same as men in their status.
Many good, frum women who are happy with their role as mothers, are not as happy with their role as wives. Even if they have the best, kindest, most understanding husbands, it is hard to be told that you are less, especially when society is pushing for equality. I'm not sure intelligence has to do with it. Even if women are no less intelligent, they are still created as an ezer knegdo, to be second. This is a hard pill for many to swallow. My frustration is that when attacking feminism, and speaking for what Hashem holds, this is quietly swept under the rug.
You’ve addressed a lot of points, including the refinery of women, which is important, but I don’t feel that this specific issue was addressed.
Is there any way to get into this discussion? How can we stand and defend the fact that women have a second class citizen status?
This is a good question. I tried to make clear in the post that women are indeed not treated equally, but are treated fairly, not worse or better than men. As you say, there is a hierarchy, but the phrase "second-class citizen" is incorrect and totally inappropriate as applied to the status of women in a Jewish marriage. For example, am I a second-class citizen to President Biden or the Governor of California? In the post, I made the comparison between women and Leviim. Are Leviim second-class citizens to Cohanim? Are Yisraelim second-class citizens? Women are by their very nature so different from men, and marriage is such a different relationship than anything else, that the phrase "second-class citizen" would be even more inappropriate than in those cases. I think the important thing to keep in mind is "better to be the tail of a lion than the head of a fox", but even that doesn't do it justice, as a Jewish woman's position is way better than the tail, she is more like the other half of the head.
The way this hierarchy plays out, both in halacha and in real life, bears very little resemblance to a master-servant relationship. A husband who thinks he can constantly tell his wife "I'm in charge and you must listen to me" is a complete idiot and would be considered abusive by any Beis Din on the planet. There are many simanim in Even Haezer dealing with spousal disagreements, and the profusion of shalom bayis books would be enough to fill libraries.
I am not sure if you are right that frum women have much trouble with this concept. From what I can tell, in the yeshivish communities, girls are desperate to get married, and I have never heard that sentiment expressed. Maybe where you are, women are bothered by it. If so, I would imagine that is probably due to exposure to secular society, but there could be other reasons.
Can this lead to abuse? Maybe. But non-religious people seem to have little trouble abusing their spouses without this excuse.
When I lived in a Charedi area, I had a chavrusa for many years whose wife got a PhD in [hard STEM degree] before she got married. As long as I've known him, she stayed at home and cared for their numerous children.
She was clearly a very intelligent woman. But also very Charedi, with zero interest in learning things considered in men's domain. And no interest in pursuing a career despite the ability. She made the better choice.
The single word that defines the essential difference between men and women is "hypergamous." Retards deny this or minimize its implications.
Women have an innate desire to "marry up" in some way. It's why women prefer taller, older men. It can be in all sorts of ways. But the way this plays out most today is higher education. A women with a college degree wants at the least the same in a man, or at least some sort of superior status to her in another way. Consider how the majority of undergraduate degrees are granted to women, and what this implies about the potential mate pool she will consider. The society we exist in today is designed to breed legions of spinsters who will never marry and never bear children, along with men incapable of having a healthy relationship with any woman, even when attracted to them. It's very sad.
In a society that prized physical ability, the physically strong one was the winner. The women would stay the weaker gender, with less power. Only when intellectual ability began to trump physical ability, like post-industrial revolution, have women's abilities had the chance to be expressed.
Of course, us Jews have not been agrarians for hundreds of years, and we always had to live on our wits. But women could still not venture into the world on business like men, because of their limited strength. So their intellectual abilities went unnoticed.
The reason I am taking this side, although I am as Charedi as the next guy with a crumpled suit and dusty black hat, is because in my experience women are almost always better than men in professional jobs. In hustling and creative jobs they may lag. But as doctors, therapists, teachers, office managers, and business managers, they are more conscientious and smarter than the men in the business. I had to reluctantly stop taking a child to a female therapist when he drew close to puberty, but it was not the same.
That makes sense to explain why they had less power, but I don't see how it can possibly explain their lack of education and intellectual contributions. There was a male Socrates, Avicenna, Newton, and Euler, but no (or very few) female versions, because these males were so physically strong?
Shimshon mentioned another explanation which is backed up by research, that although males and females have almost equal average intelligence (although males do better at math and females at verbal), the standard deviation is much higher for males. Meaning, more geniuses and also more intellectualy disabled. So that would explain why historically we have male Eulers and Newtons, but not very many Mary Curies.
But I think my explanation makes sense on its own, based on research showing that males and females have different interests, and based on lived experience which totally confirms that.
About your observation regarding women in professional jobs, I don't think that contradicts what I'm saying here. My point was simply that the Torah doesn't believe in gender equality, and sees women in very different roles than men, their main role being a wife and mother. If being an office manager doesn't interfere with that and doesn't lead to breach of tznius, great. But I believe that to get to gender parity of brain surgeons, you really need a type of cultural conditioning that is very much anti-Torah.
I agree that the Torah differentiates between them. I don't like the idea of translating Torah ideas to our lives like that.
Yes, their minds are not made for Gemara learning. But that does not say that less important and less intellectually stimulating jobs, such as brain surgery, rocket science, theoretical physicists and other such mediocre jobs are not for them. The extrapolation is a hisgashmus of Torah idea.s
Lol, what an idiot. He thinks that the brachos came from the Greeks and Romans because he saw slightly similar phrases in Socrates and Diogenes. Next he's going to say borei pri ha'eitz came from Aristotle because he once said "I enjoy fresh fruit." Perfect example of typical academic Talmud, though!
It's a miracle you were ever able to make it through law school. I mean, I know lawyers aren't exactly brilliant, but this a whole new level. Try to figure out the connection.
"It goes without saying that since this is not a set-in-stone halacha, but rather a matter of general hashkafa, we should allow for exceptions. If there is a girl who is unusually drawn to science or medical school, we should not necessarily discourage her from pursuing it."
You are outright disingenuous. You know full well in many chareidi groups, including all of Israel, that girls are point blank forbidden to pursue any serious endeavour outside babies and cooking.
I echo Shimon. This is just totally false. You have no idea of what you speak. Kol shekein in yeshivish America. Also, I said "necessarily". There may be other reasons to discourage women from doing so, such as tznius or halacha concerns.
That's retarded. I mentioned my charedi chavrusa's charedi wife's STEM PhD. One of his daughters got a Computer Science degree, in Israel. What do you do, pull "facts" out of your non-black hat? What do you know personally? Which Charedi groups? Name one, and the source for your certain knowledge. I live in Israel and have already disproven your "all of Israel" falsehood. Why do you even bother showing up here. Do you enjoy the humiliation?
Yeah, you mentioned 2 examples. Like out of how many? Big deal. 9 times out of 10 you will find that chareidi women with these sorts of qualifications are either from chutz l'eretz non-chassidic where it is slightly more common, or became chareidi at a later time in their lives. Or simply chose to break the rules - that also happens, you know.
You do seem, from your comments here and on RJ, to live in a very simplistic world......
You said all charedim in Israel. I could name many more, but that's more than sufficient to knock your retarded claim about "all of Israel." The PhD indeed got her degree in chu"l, which is why I mentioned the born-in-Israel daughter. So, I mentioned ONE example, not two, retard. No one broke any rules here. These are Charedim, and you claim there are universally applied rules on this subject. There are not. A second example. My born Charedi (and Sephardi) accountant. You know there are Sephardi Charedim, right? Where I lived was probably one third or more Sephardi. This so retarded as to be...well...I believe it will be entertaining for whoever happens to read it.
Test, or test, whoever you are, for the last four years, I live in a DL stronghold where they say Hallel with a bracha on Yom HaAztmaut. I am now more than familiar with the inhabitants of this world. While living in a 100% Charedi city prior to that, my two oldest sons served in the Charedi combat units in the IDF. Another son is a recently married kollel avrech (Chasdei Hashem everyone should be so blessed). I personally come from a completely assimilated background, have a STEM degree, and worked in the space program. Nearly all of this was posted previously at RJ, sometimes more than once, and yet it seems to have escaped your minuscule mind. My life is anything but simplistic. You, on the other hand, are a bona fide retard. You cannot stop with the blanket statements about anything.
Yeah yeah. Nobody stable, mature with all the experience you claim would throw around the word 'retard' with the frequency you do and believe the world is flat. Good bye.
I always found it interesting that conservatives defend capitalism, which is a relatively new idea. My understanding is that the defense comes from an undertone of that if God gave this person the money, it is rightfully his. This was true when there was a monarchy as well. God made him the king, and so he deserves to be the king. God made this guy rich; it is not our place to “steal” his money. Basically, God gave everyone their lot in life, and everyone should accept their lot happily, no be so busy envying another’s lot. In other words, hierarchies are God-made. Perhaps the answer to women is in this sense: God gave you this role, your job is to accept it.
This doesn’t mean that women’s issues shouldn’t be dealt with, because at the end of the day there are plenty of issues, such as women being unhappy having to listen to their husbands wants, even while he is insatiably hopeless because of the brutal competition online, amongst many other issues. Perhaps if we were being completely honest, the internet needs to be greatly modified so that men can stay tahor and not find out bad ideas. Perhaps men should be made more ignorant so that they can appreciate what Judaism has to offer…
What's especially amusing and sad is that Communism has proven to be far less damaging in reality than feminism. Consider the FSU and Eastern Europe. After 70 years of Communism each nation was still recognizable and distinct. Poland was still Polish. Etc. Look at the same countries 30 years later. They are still largely distinct and intact, and now outlawing all the perversions of the west.
After 50 years of increasingly intense feminism, Sweden is no longer Swedish, Germany is no longer German, France is no longer French, America is no longer American, England is no longer English, men are no longer men, and women are no longer women, and so forth.
"The other puzzling thing is, what happened to society at large? And what do the feminists think happened to society at large? For thousands of years, in practically every single society across the world, women generally did not pursue intellectual domains, and did not hold positions of power. All of the sudden, within the last hundred years, all of that changed.
Are we to believe as some are claiming, that for the past millennia, all the men just ignorantly assumed women were stupid, but now that we have the SAT, the GRE, the LSAT, and the MCAT, we found out we were wrong? This doesn't seem very likely at all. People were ignorant of matters that..."
Read carefully folks. Classic false debating, but yeshivish. He writes 'are we to assume', a rhetorical question, and then uses a rhetorical unanswered question as proof for his opinion. Rather than leaving it as what it is, merely a question.
There can be all sorts of answers, in fact yes, women were treated by the ancients as incapable, whose entire role is to be barefoot, raise babies, be in the kitchen and in many cultures abused at will. Intelligence/inability had nothing to do with it. Is the writer seriously suggesting the ancients were right here?
The ancients were mostly right, yes, but not like your grossly oversimplified negative portrayal, but rather my positive and uplifting portrayal, in accordance with the Torah
Before we go further, kindly set out in bullet points in what way the ancients were right and in what way they were wrong. Otherwise you will keep changing what you claim to ve saying. No word salads please. Clear bullet points.
Since when did the ancients take anything from the torah? Tell me, was the ancient Roman view that the rape of a maidservant (or male servant for that matter) was perfectly acceptable correct? You have carried out a classic bit of reverse engineering. Claiming that the ancients all followed the torah view, thus proving the torah view is correct. But you didn't analyse the ancient's view particularly well. You pick and chose which views the ancients were correct on, to match the current chareidi position!
Clearly you didn't understand a blessed word of my post. Try again. Clearly, I was mistaken to include "lawyer" on the list of intellectual professions. But I already knew that.
Does it not cross your mind that in past millennia men knew perfectly well that women were intelligent? Yet men, being the dominant sex with power, just preferred to keep them ignorant, in the kitchen (and dare I say the bedroom) and bringing up babies.
Huh? Not only did it cross my mind, I wrote explicitly that chareidi women don't become brain surgeons because their fathers and husbands viciously oppress them, beating them to within an inch of their life if they express interest in anything intellectual. Learn to read. Sheesh.
Only a retard thinks women yearn to spend the best years of their lives in a cubicle as a professional HR paper pusher or a lawyer like the men. No woman regrets bearing children but plenty regret pursuing a career at the expense of children.
Regarding facts, women and men have on average the same intelligence, but retards ignore that the standard deviation for men is much larger than for women. There are simply many fewer outliers in either direction. Less stupid women, but less highly intelligent ones too. Historically, roughly 1/3 of women have always worked in some capacity outside the family.
Even ignoring the more horrific aspects of feminism, all that expanding the workforce far beyond the historical norm of 1/3 of women has accomplished is cheapen many professions and lowered the wages of those who always worked, men and women. It encouraged needless consumer spending and debt.
Instead of making a retarded blanket statement, why don't you address what I actually said?
Is it your opinion that women yearn for the same things as men? That's how all rationalists act. That's what you're saying, and we all know you're retarded.
Although I generally find myself agreeing with HGL in his debates with you, I almost always understand where you are coming from, and I think you are based on a valid point.
But here I have no idea what you are trying to do. Are you denying that men and women generally have very different personalities and interests?
Indeed, there ain't much left to the Western world, unfortunately.
I was unaware that people actually take what goes in the Western world as worthy of consideration.
I'm assuming in a couple years you'll be saying that 4 year olds should decide whether or not to slice off some of their organs based on what their teacher told them. After all, that's where the Western world is heading, and that's apparently your urim vetumim.
Some women do, because there are always exceptions, MOST women don't. How long have you been married, Test?
If you were to take the movie "Top Gun: Maverick" at face value, you would conclude that American fighter pilots come from all races and both genders, yet the reality is that 90% or more are white males.
You believe the movie version of life, Test. The rest of us live in reality.
How do you know what MEN yearn for, for that matter? Maybe most yearn for a beer with their mates but have to work at these professions to pay the mortgage.
Bottom line, you are repeating ignorant chareidi speak without any knowledge.
What do you even mean by change? Change opinions? Jobs? Transition to a freak version of the opposite sex? This still doesn't counter the truism. They change in accord with their nature, not against it.
You really do believe women are just men with female anatomy. It's ridiculously pathetic.
Men have a psychological makeup more suitable to work to pay a 30 year mortgage than women. It is true, men don't generally yearn for cubicle work, but women who want to ape men certainly do, for all sorts of inane and irrational reasons, because equality. The reasoning is no different for women who yearn to learn. It's not because they are particularly good at it, even when they are particularly intelligent. They usually aren't. However, unlike cubicle work, there are quite a few men who love learning for real.
Have you done a survey? How do you know its not 50/50? What does 'yearn for" mean anyway? What about some shades in between.
I know we learnt in cheider that ALL goyim live useless unfulfilled lives, never really happy blah blah blah. The world is not so yes, no, black white.
So you are extrapolating what you learned and apply that across the board?
I never said the world is black and white. You did. There is a feminine nature and there is a masculine nature. To deny this is to make a black and white (ie blanket) statement not in accordance with reality.
Do you even know what hypergamy is? You are a complete boor who knows nothing and asserts false beliefs then demand others prove obvious truths to all but rationalist retards.
1st time posting here, so first off, congrats on this whole concept. Good going HGLP, I'm sure it's fun, but you are putting a lot of things in perspective for those who don't have the tools to express where they disagree with DNS, perhaps particularly some younger, more impressionable people who are struggling with their own questions. To them, when DNS talks, it breathes life into their doubts and can be really harmful. So thank you again, I hope there will be people who are taken by the academic style of talking and can find a healthy place here.
This post, as usual, was unapologetic and clear, but I do think that there is more nuance in the issue of women in Judaism. My understanding is that many women feel like while being a mother is wonderful (as clearly outlined in this article), being a wife is where it gets hard. In Torah Judaism, the woman's job is unequivocally to be second. To listen to her husband (especially in a certain context), to treat him as malchus (a “sar”), etc. We don't find this vice versa, and though a man is supposed to respect his wife tremendously, “yoser m’gufo”, as men naturally would respect women in the old days, this obligation is, according to many poskim, in reference to her body, hence the stress on yoser mi”gufo". Besides the fact that this makes room for abuse (if even unintentional and small) even in a regular marriage which does need to be addressed to those whom it affects, the fact remains that there is an element of hierarchy. It is simply not fair to portray the Torah as viewing men and women "different but equal".
It isn't, per se, a problem that this hierarchy should exist. Hashem obviously knows that this is what is necessary to keep a family stable. In a world where women wish to be equal in status, even the role of men (as the baalei mesorah) is diminished. Also, Hashem created man to perfect himself, while He created women to perfect the men. Women are not the same as men in their status.
Many good, frum women who are happy with their role as mothers, are not as happy with their role as wives. Even if they have the best, kindest, most understanding husbands, it is hard to be told that you are less, especially when society is pushing for equality. I'm not sure intelligence has to do with it. Even if women are no less intelligent, they are still created as an ezer knegdo, to be second. This is a hard pill for many to swallow. My frustration is that when attacking feminism, and speaking for what Hashem holds, this is quietly swept under the rug.
You’ve addressed a lot of points, including the refinery of women, which is important, but I don’t feel that this specific issue was addressed.
Is there any way to get into this discussion? How can we stand and defend the fact that women have a second class citizen status?
This is a good question. I tried to make clear in the post that women are indeed not treated equally, but are treated fairly, not worse or better than men. As you say, there is a hierarchy, but the phrase "second-class citizen" is incorrect and totally inappropriate as applied to the status of women in a Jewish marriage. For example, am I a second-class citizen to President Biden or the Governor of California? In the post, I made the comparison between women and Leviim. Are Leviim second-class citizens to Cohanim? Are Yisraelim second-class citizens? Women are by their very nature so different from men, and marriage is such a different relationship than anything else, that the phrase "second-class citizen" would be even more inappropriate than in those cases. I think the important thing to keep in mind is "better to be the tail of a lion than the head of a fox", but even that doesn't do it justice, as a Jewish woman's position is way better than the tail, she is more like the other half of the head.
The way this hierarchy plays out, both in halacha and in real life, bears very little resemblance to a master-servant relationship. A husband who thinks he can constantly tell his wife "I'm in charge and you must listen to me" is a complete idiot and would be considered abusive by any Beis Din on the planet. There are many simanim in Even Haezer dealing with spousal disagreements, and the profusion of shalom bayis books would be enough to fill libraries.
I am not sure if you are right that frum women have much trouble with this concept. From what I can tell, in the yeshivish communities, girls are desperate to get married, and I have never heard that sentiment expressed. Maybe where you are, women are bothered by it. If so, I would imagine that is probably due to exposure to secular society, but there could be other reasons.
Can this lead to abuse? Maybe. But non-religious people seem to have little trouble abusing their spouses without this excuse.
Very well said.
Yesterday a talmid asked me how he can explain all of this to his secular aunt
I told him that the main issue is this (based on a brilliant article written 113 years ago by RD Yitzhak Breuer ztl):
Are we created with rights
or
Are we created with obligations and a mission.
When I lived in a Charedi area, I had a chavrusa for many years whose wife got a PhD in [hard STEM degree] before she got married. As long as I've known him, she stayed at home and cared for their numerous children.
She was clearly a very intelligent woman. But also very Charedi, with zero interest in learning things considered in men's domain. And no interest in pursuing a career despite the ability. She made the better choice.
The single word that defines the essential difference between men and women is "hypergamous." Retards deny this or minimize its implications.
Women have an innate desire to "marry up" in some way. It's why women prefer taller, older men. It can be in all sorts of ways. But the way this plays out most today is higher education. A women with a college degree wants at the least the same in a man, or at least some sort of superior status to her in another way. Consider how the majority of undergraduate degrees are granted to women, and what this implies about the potential mate pool she will consider. The society we exist in today is designed to breed legions of spinsters who will never marry and never bear children, along with men incapable of having a healthy relationship with any woman, even when attracted to them. It's very sad.
For a somewhat different perspective:
https://www.hyehudi.org/shelo-asani-isha-yes-women-are-inferior-to-men/
I don't know that I buy your history argument.
In a society that prized physical ability, the physically strong one was the winner. The women would stay the weaker gender, with less power. Only when intellectual ability began to trump physical ability, like post-industrial revolution, have women's abilities had the chance to be expressed.
Of course, us Jews have not been agrarians for hundreds of years, and we always had to live on our wits. But women could still not venture into the world on business like men, because of their limited strength. So their intellectual abilities went unnoticed.
The reason I am taking this side, although I am as Charedi as the next guy with a crumpled suit and dusty black hat, is because in my experience women are almost always better than men in professional jobs. In hustling and creative jobs they may lag. But as doctors, therapists, teachers, office managers, and business managers, they are more conscientious and smarter than the men in the business. I had to reluctantly stop taking a child to a female therapist when he drew close to puberty, but it was not the same.
That makes sense to explain why they had less power, but I don't see how it can possibly explain their lack of education and intellectual contributions. There was a male Socrates, Avicenna, Newton, and Euler, but no (or very few) female versions, because these males were so physically strong?
Shimshon mentioned another explanation which is backed up by research, that although males and females have almost equal average intelligence (although males do better at math and females at verbal), the standard deviation is much higher for males. Meaning, more geniuses and also more intellectualy disabled. So that would explain why historically we have male Eulers and Newtons, but not very many Mary Curies.
But I think my explanation makes sense on its own, based on research showing that males and females have different interests, and based on lived experience which totally confirms that.
About your observation regarding women in professional jobs, I don't think that contradicts what I'm saying here. My point was simply that the Torah doesn't believe in gender equality, and sees women in very different roles than men, their main role being a wife and mother. If being an office manager doesn't interfere with that and doesn't lead to breach of tznius, great. But I believe that to get to gender parity of brain surgeons, you really need a type of cultural conditioning that is very much anti-Torah.
I agree that the Torah differentiates between them. I don't like the idea of translating Torah ideas to our lives like that.
Yes, their minds are not made for Gemara learning. But that does not say that less important and less intellectually stimulating jobs, such as brain surgery, rocket science, theoretical physicists and other such mediocre jobs are not for them. The extrapolation is a hisgashmus of Torah idea.s
Just gonna post this link here: Happy, feel free to demolish it! https://2nd-son.blogspot.com/2022/07/ignorant-experts-and-shelo-asani-isha.html
Lol, what an idiot. He thinks that the brachos came from the Greeks and Romans because he saw slightly similar phrases in Socrates and Diogenes. Next he's going to say borei pri ha'eitz came from Aristotle because he once said "I enjoy fresh fruit." Perfect example of typical academic Talmud, though!
How do you explain;
סדיו עששה ותמכור
Bottom line, Jewish women have always been involved in businesses. Unlike revisionist chareidi history.
Did you not see where I quoted the mishnah in Kesubos??? Geez.
I quote mishli. You quote kesuvos about an entirely different topic. Just shows how shallow thinking you are.
It's a miracle you were ever able to make it through law school. I mean, I know lawyers aren't exactly brilliant, but this a whole new level. Try to figure out the connection.
"It goes without saying that since this is not a set-in-stone halacha, but rather a matter of general hashkafa, we should allow for exceptions. If there is a girl who is unusually drawn to science or medical school, we should not necessarily discourage her from pursuing it."
You are outright disingenuous. You know full well in many chareidi groups, including all of Israel, that girls are point blank forbidden to pursue any serious endeavour outside babies and cooking.
I echo Shimon. This is just totally false. You have no idea of what you speak. Kol shekein in yeshivish America. Also, I said "necessarily". There may be other reasons to discourage women from doing so, such as tznius or halacha concerns.
That's retarded. I mentioned my charedi chavrusa's charedi wife's STEM PhD. One of his daughters got a Computer Science degree, in Israel. What do you do, pull "facts" out of your non-black hat? What do you know personally? Which Charedi groups? Name one, and the source for your certain knowledge. I live in Israel and have already disproven your "all of Israel" falsehood. Why do you even bother showing up here. Do you enjoy the humiliation?
Yeah, you mentioned 2 examples. Like out of how many? Big deal. 9 times out of 10 you will find that chareidi women with these sorts of qualifications are either from chutz l'eretz non-chassidic where it is slightly more common, or became chareidi at a later time in their lives. Or simply chose to break the rules - that also happens, you know.
You do seem, from your comments here and on RJ, to live in a very simplistic world......
You said all charedim in Israel. I could name many more, but that's more than sufficient to knock your retarded claim about "all of Israel." The PhD indeed got her degree in chu"l, which is why I mentioned the born-in-Israel daughter. So, I mentioned ONE example, not two, retard. No one broke any rules here. These are Charedim, and you claim there are universally applied rules on this subject. There are not. A second example. My born Charedi (and Sephardi) accountant. You know there are Sephardi Charedim, right? Where I lived was probably one third or more Sephardi. This so retarded as to be...well...I believe it will be entertaining for whoever happens to read it.
Test, or test, whoever you are, for the last four years, I live in a DL stronghold where they say Hallel with a bracha on Yom HaAztmaut. I am now more than familiar with the inhabitants of this world. While living in a 100% Charedi city prior to that, my two oldest sons served in the Charedi combat units in the IDF. Another son is a recently married kollel avrech (Chasdei Hashem everyone should be so blessed). I personally come from a completely assimilated background, have a STEM degree, and worked in the space program. Nearly all of this was posted previously at RJ, sometimes more than once, and yet it seems to have escaped your minuscule mind. My life is anything but simplistic. You, on the other hand, are a bona fide retard. You cannot stop with the blanket statements about anything.
Yeah yeah. Nobody stable, mature with all the experience you claim would throw around the word 'retard' with the frequency you do and believe the world is flat. Good bye.
Yet here I am. Your departure will be appreciated.
I always found it interesting that conservatives defend capitalism, which is a relatively new idea. My understanding is that the defense comes from an undertone of that if God gave this person the money, it is rightfully his. This was true when there was a monarchy as well. God made him the king, and so he deserves to be the king. God made this guy rich; it is not our place to “steal” his money. Basically, God gave everyone their lot in life, and everyone should accept their lot happily, no be so busy envying another’s lot. In other words, hierarchies are God-made. Perhaps the answer to women is in this sense: God gave you this role, your job is to accept it.
This doesn’t mean that women’s issues shouldn’t be dealt with, because at the end of the day there are plenty of issues, such as women being unhappy having to listen to their husbands wants, even while he is insatiably hopeless because of the brutal competition online, amongst many other issues. Perhaps if we were being completely honest, the internet needs to be greatly modified so that men can stay tahor and not find out bad ideas. Perhaps men should be made more ignorant so that they can appreciate what Judaism has to offer…
What's especially amusing and sad is that Communism has proven to be far less damaging in reality than feminism. Consider the FSU and Eastern Europe. After 70 years of Communism each nation was still recognizable and distinct. Poland was still Polish. Etc. Look at the same countries 30 years later. They are still largely distinct and intact, and now outlawing all the perversions of the west.
After 50 years of increasingly intense feminism, Sweden is no longer Swedish, Germany is no longer German, France is no longer French, America is no longer American, England is no longer English, men are no longer men, and women are no longer women, and so forth.
I refuse to say shelo asani goy.
what does that make me?
*You* definitely shouldn't say it
Thanks
And the rest of the morning blessings you do say every day? Or you just mean in the theoretical sense, if you were to say them?
You say you know how to learn, go figure it out.
Ha. Exactly as I thought.
Which is?
And if it's what you suggested previously, you're way off base.
lol
"The other puzzling thing is, what happened to society at large? And what do the feminists think happened to society at large? For thousands of years, in practically every single society across the world, women generally did not pursue intellectual domains, and did not hold positions of power. All of the sudden, within the last hundred years, all of that changed.
Are we to believe as some are claiming, that for the past millennia, all the men just ignorantly assumed women were stupid, but now that we have the SAT, the GRE, the LSAT, and the MCAT, we found out we were wrong? This doesn't seem very likely at all. People were ignorant of matters that..."
Read carefully folks. Classic false debating, but yeshivish. He writes 'are we to assume', a rhetorical question, and then uses a rhetorical unanswered question as proof for his opinion. Rather than leaving it as what it is, merely a question.
There can be all sorts of answers, in fact yes, women were treated by the ancients as incapable, whose entire role is to be barefoot, raise babies, be in the kitchen and in many cultures abused at will. Intelligence/inability had nothing to do with it. Is the writer seriously suggesting the ancients were right here?
The ancients were mostly right, yes, but not like your grossly oversimplified negative portrayal, but rather my positive and uplifting portrayal, in accordance with the Torah
Before we go further, kindly set out in bullet points in what way the ancients were right and in what way they were wrong. Otherwise you will keep changing what you claim to ve saying. No word salads please. Clear bullet points.
Since when did the ancients take anything from the torah? Tell me, was the ancient Roman view that the rape of a maidservant (or male servant for that matter) was perfectly acceptable correct? You have carried out a classic bit of reverse engineering. Claiming that the ancients all followed the torah view, thus proving the torah view is correct. But you didn't analyse the ancient's view particularly well. You pick and chose which views the ancients were correct on, to match the current chareidi position!
Clearly you didn't understand a blessed word of my post. Try again. Clearly, I was mistaken to include "lawyer" on the list of intellectual professions. But I already knew that.
You wrote clearly 'the ancients were mostly right'. Give me your bullet points explaining that and then we can debate sensibly moving forward.
Does it not cross your mind that in past millennia men knew perfectly well that women were intelligent? Yet men, being the dominant sex with power, just preferred to keep them ignorant, in the kitchen (and dare I say the bedroom) and bringing up babies.
Huh? Not only did it cross my mind, I wrote explicitly that chareidi women don't become brain surgeons because their fathers and husbands viciously oppress them, beating them to within an inch of their life if they express interest in anything intellectual. Learn to read. Sheesh.
Bulls eye!
“Different but equal”
Only a retard thinks women yearn to spend the best years of their lives in a cubicle as a professional HR paper pusher or a lawyer like the men. No woman regrets bearing children but plenty regret pursuing a career at the expense of children.
Regarding facts, women and men have on average the same intelligence, but retards ignore that the standard deviation for men is much larger than for women. There are simply many fewer outliers in either direction. Less stupid women, but less highly intelligent ones too. Historically, roughly 1/3 of women have always worked in some capacity outside the family.
Even ignoring the more horrific aspects of feminism, all that expanding the workforce far beyond the historical norm of 1/3 of women has accomplished is cheapen many professions and lowered the wages of those who always worked, men and women. It encouraged needless consumer spending and debt.
Only a retarded male thinks he knows what women do and do not want.....
Instead of making a retarded blanket statement, why don't you address what I actually said?
Is it your opinion that women yearn for the same things as men? That's how all rationalists act. That's what you're saying, and we all know you're retarded.
"Is it your opinion that women yearn for the same things as men? "
Some women do, some women don't. What do you find so difficult in that, Mr yes, no, black white.
Although I generally find myself agreeing with HGL in his debates with you, I almost always understand where you are coming from, and I think you are based on a valid point.
But here I have no idea what you are trying to do. Are you denying that men and women generally have very different personalities and interests?
Yes, in the Western world the gender stereotypes are long gone. I appreciate that those that live in closeted religious societies may not know that.
Indeed, there ain't much left to the Western world, unfortunately.
I was unaware that people actually take what goes in the Western world as worthy of consideration.
I'm assuming in a couple years you'll be saying that 4 year olds should decide whether or not to slice off some of their organs based on what their teacher told them. After all, that's where the Western world is heading, and that's apparently your urim vetumim.
Some women do, because there are always exceptions, MOST women don't. How long have you been married, Test?
If you were to take the movie "Top Gun: Maverick" at face value, you would conclude that American fighter pilots come from all races and both genders, yet the reality is that 90% or more are white males.
You believe the movie version of life, Test. The rest of us live in reality.
How do you know what MEN yearn for, for that matter? Maybe most yearn for a beer with their mates but have to work at these professions to pay the mortgage.
Bottom line, you are repeating ignorant chareidi speak without any knowledge.
And also of course people change throughout their lives. Do you know that?
I know much more than you.
What do you even mean by change? Change opinions? Jobs? Transition to a freak version of the opposite sex? This still doesn't counter the truism. They change in accord with their nature, not against it.
You really do believe women are just men with female anatomy. It's ridiculously pathetic.
Men have a psychological makeup more suitable to work to pay a 30 year mortgage than women. It is true, men don't generally yearn for cubicle work, but women who want to ape men certainly do, for all sorts of inane and irrational reasons, because equality. The reasoning is no different for women who yearn to learn. It's not because they are particularly good at it, even when they are particularly intelligent. They usually aren't. However, unlike cubicle work, there are quite a few men who love learning for real.
Have you done a survey? How do you know its not 50/50? What does 'yearn for" mean anyway? What about some shades in between.
I know we learnt in cheider that ALL goyim live useless unfulfilled lives, never really happy blah blah blah. The world is not so yes, no, black white.
So you are extrapolating what you learned and apply that across the board?
I never said the world is black and white. You did. There is a feminine nature and there is a masculine nature. To deny this is to make a black and white (ie blanket) statement not in accordance with reality.
Do you even know what hypergamy is? You are a complete boor who knows nothing and asserts false beliefs then demand others prove obvious truths to all but rationalist retards.