1st time posting here, so first off, congrats on this whole concept. Good going HGLP, I'm sure it's fun, but you are putting a lot of things in perspective for those who don't have the tools to express where they disagree with DNS, perhaps particularly some younger, more impressionable people who are struggling with their own questions. To them, when DNS talks, it breathes life into their doubts and can be really harmful. So thank you again, I hope there will be people who are taken by the academic style of talking and can find a healthy place here.
This post, as usual, was unapologetic and clear, but I do think that there is more nuance in the issue of women in Judaism. My understanding is that many women feel like while being a mother is wonderful (as clearly outlined in this article), being a wife is where it gets hard. In Torah Judaism, the woman's job is unequivocally to be second. To listen to her husband (especially in a certain context), to treat him as malchus (a “sar”), etc. We don't find this vice versa, and though a man is supposed to respect his wife tremendously, “yoser m’gufo”, as men naturally would respect women in the old days, this obligation is, according to many poskim, in reference to her body, hence the stress on yoser mi”gufo". Besides the fact that this makes room for abuse (if even unintentional and small) even in a regular marriage which does need to be addressed to those whom it affects, the fact remains that there is an element of hierarchy. It is simply not fair to portray the Torah as viewing men and women "different but equal".
It isn't, per se, a problem that this hierarchy should exist. Hashem obviously knows that this is what is necessary to keep a family stable. In a world where women wish to be equal in status, even the role of men (as the baalei mesorah) is diminished. Also, Hashem created man to perfect himself, while He created women to perfect the men. Women are not the same as men in their status.
Many good, frum women who are happy with their role as mothers, are not as happy with their role as wives. Even if they have the best, kindest, most understanding husbands, it is hard to be told that you are less, especially when society is pushing for equality. I'm not sure intelligence has to do with it. Even if women are no less intelligent, they are still created as an ezer knegdo, to be second. This is a hard pill for many to swallow. My frustration is that when attacking feminism, and speaking for what Hashem holds, this is quietly swept under the rug.
You’ve addressed a lot of points, including the refinery of women, which is important, but I don’t feel that this specific issue was addressed.
Is there any way to get into this discussion? How can we stand and defend the fact that women have a second class citizen status?
When I lived in a Charedi area, I had a chavrusa for many years whose wife got a PhD in [hard STEM degree] before she got married. As long as I've known him, she stayed at home and cared for their numerous children.
She was clearly a very intelligent woman. But also very Charedi, with zero interest in learning things considered in men's domain. And no interest in pursuing a career despite the ability. She made the better choice.
The single word that defines the essential difference between men and women is "hypergamous." Retards deny this or minimize its implications.
Women have an innate desire to "marry up" in some way. It's why women prefer taller, older men. It can be in all sorts of ways. But the way this plays out most today is higher education. A women with a college degree wants at the least the same in a man, or at least some sort of superior status to her in another way. Consider how the majority of undergraduate degrees are granted to women, and what this implies about the potential mate pool she will consider. The society we exist in today is designed to breed legions of spinsters who will never marry and never bear children, along with men incapable of having a healthy relationship with any woman, even when attracted to them. It's very sad.
In a society that prized physical ability, the physically strong one was the winner. The women would stay the weaker gender, with less power. Only when intellectual ability began to trump physical ability, like post-industrial revolution, have women's abilities had the chance to be expressed.
Of course, us Jews have not been agrarians for hundreds of years, and we always had to live on our wits. But women could still not venture into the world on business like men, because of their limited strength. So their intellectual abilities went unnoticed.
The reason I am taking this side, although I am as Charedi as the next guy with a crumpled suit and dusty black hat, is because in my experience women are almost always better than men in professional jobs. In hustling and creative jobs they may lag. But as doctors, therapists, teachers, office managers, and business managers, they are more conscientious and smarter than the men in the business. I had to reluctantly stop taking a child to a female therapist when he drew close to puberty, but it was not the same.
"It goes without saying that since this is not a set-in-stone halacha, but rather a matter of general hashkafa, we should allow for exceptions. If there is a girl who is unusually drawn to science or medical school, we should not necessarily discourage her from pursuing it."
You are outright disingenuous. You know full well in many chareidi groups, including all of Israel, that girls are point blank forbidden to pursue any serious endeavour outside babies and cooking.
I always found it interesting that conservatives defend capitalism, which is a relatively new idea. My understanding is that the defense comes from an undertone of that if God gave this person the money, it is rightfully his. This was true when there was a monarchy as well. God made him the king, and so he deserves to be the king. God made this guy rich; it is not our place to “steal” his money. Basically, God gave everyone their lot in life, and everyone should accept their lot happily, no be so busy envying another’s lot. In other words, hierarchies are God-made. Perhaps the answer to women is in this sense: God gave you this role, your job is to accept it.
This doesn’t mean that women’s issues shouldn’t be dealt with, because at the end of the day there are plenty of issues, such as women being unhappy having to listen to their husbands wants, even while he is insatiably hopeless because of the brutal competition online, amongst many other issues. Perhaps if we were being completely honest, the internet needs to be greatly modified so that men can stay tahor and not find out bad ideas. Perhaps men should be made more ignorant so that they can appreciate what Judaism has to offer…
"The other puzzling thing is, what happened to society at large? And what do the feminists think happened to society at large? For thousands of years, in practically every single society across the world, women generally did not pursue intellectual domains, and did not hold positions of power. All of the sudden, within the last hundred years, all of that changed.
Are we to believe as some are claiming, that for the past millennia, all the men just ignorantly assumed women were stupid, but now that we have the SAT, the GRE, the LSAT, and the MCAT, we found out we were wrong? This doesn't seem very likely at all. People were ignorant of matters that..."
Read carefully folks. Classic false debating, but yeshivish. He writes 'are we to assume', a rhetorical question, and then uses a rhetorical unanswered question as proof for his opinion. Rather than leaving it as what it is, merely a question.
There can be all sorts of answers, in fact yes, women were treated by the ancients as incapable, whose entire role is to be barefoot, raise babies, be in the kitchen and in many cultures abused at will. Intelligence/inability had nothing to do with it. Is the writer seriously suggesting the ancients were right here?
Only a retard thinks women yearn to spend the best years of their lives in a cubicle as a professional HR paper pusher or a lawyer like the men. No woman regrets bearing children but plenty regret pursuing a career at the expense of children.
Regarding facts, women and men have on average the same intelligence, but retards ignore that the standard deviation for men is much larger than for women. There are simply many fewer outliers in either direction. Less stupid women, but less highly intelligent ones too. Historically, roughly 1/3 of women have always worked in some capacity outside the family.
Even ignoring the more horrific aspects of feminism, all that expanding the workforce far beyond the historical norm of 1/3 of women has accomplished is cheapen many professions and lowered the wages of those who always worked, men and women. It encouraged needless consumer spending and debt.
1st time posting here, so first off, congrats on this whole concept. Good going HGLP, I'm sure it's fun, but you are putting a lot of things in perspective for those who don't have the tools to express where they disagree with DNS, perhaps particularly some younger, more impressionable people who are struggling with their own questions. To them, when DNS talks, it breathes life into their doubts and can be really harmful. So thank you again, I hope there will be people who are taken by the academic style of talking and can find a healthy place here.
This post, as usual, was unapologetic and clear, but I do think that there is more nuance in the issue of women in Judaism. My understanding is that many women feel like while being a mother is wonderful (as clearly outlined in this article), being a wife is where it gets hard. In Torah Judaism, the woman's job is unequivocally to be second. To listen to her husband (especially in a certain context), to treat him as malchus (a “sar”), etc. We don't find this vice versa, and though a man is supposed to respect his wife tremendously, “yoser m’gufo”, as men naturally would respect women in the old days, this obligation is, according to many poskim, in reference to her body, hence the stress on yoser mi”gufo". Besides the fact that this makes room for abuse (if even unintentional and small) even in a regular marriage which does need to be addressed to those whom it affects, the fact remains that there is an element of hierarchy. It is simply not fair to portray the Torah as viewing men and women "different but equal".
It isn't, per se, a problem that this hierarchy should exist. Hashem obviously knows that this is what is necessary to keep a family stable. In a world where women wish to be equal in status, even the role of men (as the baalei mesorah) is diminished. Also, Hashem created man to perfect himself, while He created women to perfect the men. Women are not the same as men in their status.
Many good, frum women who are happy with their role as mothers, are not as happy with their role as wives. Even if they have the best, kindest, most understanding husbands, it is hard to be told that you are less, especially when society is pushing for equality. I'm not sure intelligence has to do with it. Even if women are no less intelligent, they are still created as an ezer knegdo, to be second. This is a hard pill for many to swallow. My frustration is that when attacking feminism, and speaking for what Hashem holds, this is quietly swept under the rug.
You’ve addressed a lot of points, including the refinery of women, which is important, but I don’t feel that this specific issue was addressed.
Is there any way to get into this discussion? How can we stand and defend the fact that women have a second class citizen status?
Very well said.
Yesterday a talmid asked me how he can explain all of this to his secular aunt
I told him that the main issue is this (based on a brilliant article written 113 years ago by RD Yitzhak Breuer ztl):
Are we created with rights
or
Are we created with obligations and a mission.
When I lived in a Charedi area, I had a chavrusa for many years whose wife got a PhD in [hard STEM degree] before she got married. As long as I've known him, she stayed at home and cared for their numerous children.
She was clearly a very intelligent woman. But also very Charedi, with zero interest in learning things considered in men's domain. And no interest in pursuing a career despite the ability. She made the better choice.
The single word that defines the essential difference between men and women is "hypergamous." Retards deny this or minimize its implications.
Women have an innate desire to "marry up" in some way. It's why women prefer taller, older men. It can be in all sorts of ways. But the way this plays out most today is higher education. A women with a college degree wants at the least the same in a man, or at least some sort of superior status to her in another way. Consider how the majority of undergraduate degrees are granted to women, and what this implies about the potential mate pool she will consider. The society we exist in today is designed to breed legions of spinsters who will never marry and never bear children, along with men incapable of having a healthy relationship with any woman, even when attracted to them. It's very sad.
For a somewhat different perspective:
https://www.hyehudi.org/shelo-asani-isha-yes-women-are-inferior-to-men/
I don't know that I buy your history argument.
In a society that prized physical ability, the physically strong one was the winner. The women would stay the weaker gender, with less power. Only when intellectual ability began to trump physical ability, like post-industrial revolution, have women's abilities had the chance to be expressed.
Of course, us Jews have not been agrarians for hundreds of years, and we always had to live on our wits. But women could still not venture into the world on business like men, because of their limited strength. So their intellectual abilities went unnoticed.
The reason I am taking this side, although I am as Charedi as the next guy with a crumpled suit and dusty black hat, is because in my experience women are almost always better than men in professional jobs. In hustling and creative jobs they may lag. But as doctors, therapists, teachers, office managers, and business managers, they are more conscientious and smarter than the men in the business. I had to reluctantly stop taking a child to a female therapist when he drew close to puberty, but it was not the same.
Just gonna post this link here: Happy, feel free to demolish it! https://2nd-son.blogspot.com/2022/07/ignorant-experts-and-shelo-asani-isha.html
How do you explain;
סדיו עששה ותמכור
Bottom line, Jewish women have always been involved in businesses. Unlike revisionist chareidi history.
"It goes without saying that since this is not a set-in-stone halacha, but rather a matter of general hashkafa, we should allow for exceptions. If there is a girl who is unusually drawn to science or medical school, we should not necessarily discourage her from pursuing it."
You are outright disingenuous. You know full well in many chareidi groups, including all of Israel, that girls are point blank forbidden to pursue any serious endeavour outside babies and cooking.
I always found it interesting that conservatives defend capitalism, which is a relatively new idea. My understanding is that the defense comes from an undertone of that if God gave this person the money, it is rightfully his. This was true when there was a monarchy as well. God made him the king, and so he deserves to be the king. God made this guy rich; it is not our place to “steal” his money. Basically, God gave everyone their lot in life, and everyone should accept their lot happily, no be so busy envying another’s lot. In other words, hierarchies are God-made. Perhaps the answer to women is in this sense: God gave you this role, your job is to accept it.
This doesn’t mean that women’s issues shouldn’t be dealt with, because at the end of the day there are plenty of issues, such as women being unhappy having to listen to their husbands wants, even while he is insatiably hopeless because of the brutal competition online, amongst many other issues. Perhaps if we were being completely honest, the internet needs to be greatly modified so that men can stay tahor and not find out bad ideas. Perhaps men should be made more ignorant so that they can appreciate what Judaism has to offer…
I refuse to say shelo asani goy.
what does that make me?
"The other puzzling thing is, what happened to society at large? And what do the feminists think happened to society at large? For thousands of years, in practically every single society across the world, women generally did not pursue intellectual domains, and did not hold positions of power. All of the sudden, within the last hundred years, all of that changed.
Are we to believe as some are claiming, that for the past millennia, all the men just ignorantly assumed women were stupid, but now that we have the SAT, the GRE, the LSAT, and the MCAT, we found out we were wrong? This doesn't seem very likely at all. People were ignorant of matters that..."
Read carefully folks. Classic false debating, but yeshivish. He writes 'are we to assume', a rhetorical question, and then uses a rhetorical unanswered question as proof for his opinion. Rather than leaving it as what it is, merely a question.
There can be all sorts of answers, in fact yes, women were treated by the ancients as incapable, whose entire role is to be barefoot, raise babies, be in the kitchen and in many cultures abused at will. Intelligence/inability had nothing to do with it. Is the writer seriously suggesting the ancients were right here?
Bulls eye!
“Different but equal”
Only a retard thinks women yearn to spend the best years of their lives in a cubicle as a professional HR paper pusher or a lawyer like the men. No woman regrets bearing children but plenty regret pursuing a career at the expense of children.
Regarding facts, women and men have on average the same intelligence, but retards ignore that the standard deviation for men is much larger than for women. There are simply many fewer outliers in either direction. Less stupid women, but less highly intelligent ones too. Historically, roughly 1/3 of women have always worked in some capacity outside the family.
Even ignoring the more horrific aspects of feminism, all that expanding the workforce far beyond the historical norm of 1/3 of women has accomplished is cheapen many professions and lowered the wages of those who always worked, men and women. It encouraged needless consumer spending and debt.