Sorry for my absence, I've been trying to stay offline. I had emailed Happy שיחיה an idea for a post earlier last week and found out this morning that he posted it (he tried to reach me earlier).
I've been reading the comments, and I just looked at the previous posts and Slifkin's latest posts (as well as the comment sections there) and I want to clarify a few things that are important in context:
1) I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, or rather if I insinuated differently: I have nothing but respect for the Tzahal. People willing to put themselves in the line of fire is a noble cause by any standards (so long as the cause of the country is acceptable). Even leaving aside the עבודת השם aspect - simply the fact that they are living selfless lives is an extremely high Jewish value. I can't stress this enough. Being selfless is what it's all about. And for that I am dust under their feet. I try to live my life on such a selfless standard by doing what Hashem wants, not what I want, and that is really, really hard - it's even death itself. But, it is not the actual קיום of בכל נפשכם. Putting your *actual life* at risk is extremely noble. The words I'm using here are clumsy in describing my sentiments but I hope you read into them fully.
This is besides for the fact that most of these soldiers are our very brothers (and sisters) and we should be feeling their anxiety and pain, the pain of their wives and families. The many stresses of real war is not a joke and we should not be undermining it in any way whatsoever. I live in America and it's relatively comfortable here (בלע"ה), but my thoughts are constantly about these soldiers, our brothers, that חלילה nothing happen to them. The offensive into Gaza is imminent (it's been 'imminent' for a while now...) and only Hashem knows מי יחיה ומי ימות. They, and their families, know this all too well and we must be very careful not to undermine the cause in any way, especially now when they are literally preparing themselves for actual war.
Even more, for most of these people, it *is* עבודת השם, not just buried deep down. They know, especially now, that their hands are in a Higher Power's hands, whether they are only mildly religious or were completely not. Many have been spreading messages across social media to this effect, and אחינו בנ"י in these times come together and pray and wear Tzitzis, and more.
2) All I came to say, without being aware of the debates already growing in the comment section of Slifkin's blog, was that while there is a physical battle taking place, there is also a spiritual battle in front of us. The Jewish response to an עת צרה, especially for someone who is not on the battle ground, is תשובה, תפילה וצדקה. We know that whatever Hashem serves us in this world is a message, for those who are listening, to do תשובה. If we do תשובה, we will see Hashem's good hand. If we don't ר"ל, the message will be given differently ל"ע. We are not נביאים and we will never know for certain which issues need fixing, and none of us can point with confidence to any particular issue, but כלל ישראל is made of individuals who come together to make a community, and the individual's job is to look inward and do his own personal תשובה. My job is to do me, your job is to do you. But all of us who strengthen our עבודת השם יתברך in a real way are responding to this צרה נוראה properly. We, as chareidim, believe that the true message is for those who can receive the message: Hashem wants more from us! My first and last paragraphs were stressing this point, that it isn't a joke when we say it is up to us. This is not to undermine the war efforts, but it is supposed to be a push that we take our own עבודה seriously and realize that, in a sense, we are on the front lines. Just like a soldier is responsible for being strong and the army is the country's defense, we too have a similar אחריות to try and keep the nation safe, through our עבודה and תשובה. Just like we expect the army to have a good strategy and that is what keeps the nation protected, we must have a strategy in fighting on the very real spiritual front.
3) Even when soldiers go to battle, it is up to HKBH what will happen. That is undeniable. While our brothers do their part on the battleground, HKBH will decide their fate. In history, we are told to look at the spiritual front as the cause of success on the physical front. This should not at all undermine the physical front; rather it should embolden us, who are busy on the spiritual front, to strengthen our own war efforts because lives are at stake.
The last paragraph could definitely have been written better and I accept the blame for any misunderstandings. My point was to be a chizuk. Especially to those who are learning and davening it's very easy to get sucked into the idea that we aren't really doing anything. It's hard to feel like we're accomplishing when you're *just* Saying Tehilim and learning extra. My point was, NO! You really are! Our efforts on the spiritual front really matter! Again, not in the same way as those going to war. But our part is equally important.
"and that is really, really hard - it's even death itself."
......spare us, please......
Do you know how insulting and callous that is to those that have experienced death itself?
Do you really believe the trash you write, or are you just brainwashed? One moment charedie 'benei torah' are like 'sheivet levi', then they on the madreigah of Dovid Hamelech (or was it Chizkiyoh Hamelech?, don't care) and now it is even 'death itself'.
That's not what he wrote. It was all in the first person. And how many people are 'memies atzmo' these days.
But that is the point - chareidim confuse the life they claim to be leading with the life 99% of them actually do live. Delsusions of grandaur. And they claim delusions should privilige them in all sorts of ways.
Which is why my comments about matters such as minyan factories (which are still booming, despite the 'matzav') strike such a raw nerve and trigger the most gratitious insults.
No, we find you minyan factory comments annoying because nobody here attends the 11:00 shacharis besides for, apparently, you. Same with gazing at other people's wives and gawking at people in the mikvah. You are the only person here that does that, yet project your issues onto everybody else. That's a sign of some sort of sickness.
I just want to point out that many of the חיילים (including one of my sons and some of my relatives who are now in the army, and some of my friends who are in the army) are frum yidden
Where did you get that from? Do ever stop making stuff up?
Also, you can post under your regular account, nobody banned or blocked you here, despite your never ending misrepresentations and mischaracterizations.
You have to be reading it in extraordinarily bad faith to come to that conclusion. A religious soldier who is being moser nefesh for klal Yisrael is engaging in avodas Hashem, he never said differently.
Yes he did say differently. He said thay the soldiers are just messengers and are not fighting the real battle.
And what about secular soldiers? (Who probably also believe in Hashem, even if they are not religious, but it's not even relevant). Are they not doing a tremendously mitzvah?
No, he said that the soldiers are playing it out on the physical plane. A religious soldier is playing both roles, the spiritual and the physical. A secular soldier will get schar for his mitzva, just like any secular person or non-Jew who helps Jews or other people, but he is probably not engaging in avodas Hashem.
How do you know what is going on in the minyan factories? How do you know they are still booming? Do you stand outside them all day counting how many people attend??
"First of all, thanks for providing this perspective in a more sensitive manner than your usual posts, with far less invective, it must have been hard for you.
Nevertheless, you are still deeply mistaken. You are mistaken about the alleged lack of merit of Torah study for two reasons. The first is that the chareidi poskim are much greater than the Dati poskim, let's be real, even many of them admit it. So why in the world would their opinion on this issue matter to Chareidim? But more importantly, even from a Dati perspective, this wouldn't mean that the Torah of chareidi bachurim and yungeleit attains no merit. Even according to Bais Hillel, the followers of Bais Shammai attain merit for following him and are serving Hashem alongside Bais Hillel, ק"ו בן בנו של ק"ו בנדונינו.
You are also mistaken about the importance of Torah study, even from a Dati perspective. Nobody has a problem with the concept that a technician or an engineer plays and equally vital role in the war as the combat soldier, despite the fact that their lives are at much less risk. This is because everybody recognizes the importance of an engineer to the war effort. From a Torah perspective, whether Chareidi or Dati (but perhaps not from a "Rationalist Judaism" perspective), the merit of Torah scholars is equally if not more important to the engineer. I don't know about your daughter, as females are not מצווה in Talmud Torah, but the merits of your son's Torah study are certainly *not* eclipsed by the merit of him actually serving in the IDF. So the outrage over this "tone deaf" equivalency, and the disingenuous deflection towards the fact that they are not risking their lives, can only come from somebody who does not appreciate the merit of Torah and Mitzvos compared to engineering, ie the secularist "rationalist" perspective.
Finally, you are mistaken about the magnitude of the dispute between the chareidi poskim, and l'havdil, the Dati poskim. You write in parentheses "There may be an exception for a very small number of elite scholars whose mission is to be teachers of the nation, if they are not needed for the war effort, but there is certainly no exemption for standard yeshivah students." Hmmm. This means the Dati poskim do *not* hold everybody must serve in the army, but admit plenty of exceptions. So too the chareidi poskim, they just don't limit those exception to the arbitrary and self-serving category of "elite scholars", but to anybody who wants to make תורתו אומנתו.
In the end of the day, the people who are outraged at this are going to be the ones who are looking for an excuse to be outraged at Chareidim in general, these are probably the one you surround yourself with. For them it is always a good time to incite hatred, and now is as good a time as any else. But people with straight heads will not feel that way. And anecdotally, I know plenty of chareidi and non-chareidi people with relatives who are called up, and I am hearing only positive things, not resentment and certainly not rifts. We have even published a post on Irrationalist Modoxism from somebody who was called up, I hope this makes you happy rather than upset."
"Currently, the Right is winning. This means that the majority of tech companies are investigating transferring out of Israel, a significant percentage of the population will simply leave, the country will rapidly get even more extreme right-wing/religious, and the international political fallout will be enormous. The economy will crash, the political alliances will dissolve, and the State will fall prey to its enemies, who are already cackling with glee at what is happening. Israel will end up, just as in the Second Temple Era, falling victim to those who insist on confrontation and are certain that they have God on their side."
"Hamas’ strategy is based on the belief that we are European colonialists. Palestinian propaganda is fundamentally based around this, which is why they even deny the existence of the Temple. When life becomes too difficult for colonialists, they return back to their country of origin. And so they are convinced that this is what will happen to us."
...
... Colonialists give up. Indigenous natives do not. We are here to stay."
======
I guess the dilemma in Rationalist Judea is whether to stay to spite Hamas, or leave to spite charedim.
I get the point of the article, but let me point out that the words "physical motions", implies that hishtadlus is like some charade. There is such an opinion (Brisk), but the Chovos Halevavos describes hishtadlus like Hashem putting the plate in front of us, and it's our job to lift the food to our mouths. That means that although the Shefa is coming from Hashem we are definitely doing something.
Now Bitachon is even more important when hishtadlus is impossible, like by Chizkiyahu, when 180,000 solders besieged a city, and Chizkiyahu didn't even daven. He then fully trusted that only Hashem could save. On the other hand David needed to do fight since it was possible, and still had to remember it was all Hashem.
In our case, when Hishdadlus is being done by the אפשר לעשות על ידי אחרים ואנו לומדים לזכותם, we recognize that Hashem judges us my our merits and it is our duty to increase them.
One comment you made really bothered me: "If we find more issues and deaths ר"ל, it’s because we aren’t trying hard enough." Chas veshalom. You are not a Navi to explain דרכי השם or to apply Bitachon-Game-theory. We try are best, hope for the best, and sometimes there's something called a gezaira, or other people's avairos. I hope that's not the case, but please, stay away from the blame game and just focus on increasing zechusim, without any ultimatums.
וכבר היה אדם יכול להיות יושב ובטל והגזירה (גזירת קיצבת מזונות שקצבו לו בראש השנה) היתה מתקיימת, אם לא שקדם הקנס לכל בני אדם, (בראשית ג): בזעת אפך תאכל לחם, אשר על כן חייב אדם להשתדל איזה השתדלות לצורך פרנסתו, שכן גזר המלך העליון, והרי זה כמס שפורע כל המין האנושי אשר אין להמלט ממנו:
על כן (הואיל וכך גזר המלך) אמרו (ספרי): יכול אפילו יושב ובטל (יראה סימן ברכה) תלמוד לומר: בכל משלח ידך אשר תעשה (שצריך אתה להשתדל ולעשות), אך לא שההשתדלות הוא המועיל, אלא שהשתדלות מוכרח, וכיון שהשתדל הרי יצא ידי חובתו, וכבר יש מקום לברכת שמים שתשרה עליו ואינו צריך לבלות ימיו בחריצות והשתדלות, הוא מה שכתב דוד המלך ע"ה (תהלים ט"ה): כי לא ממוצא וממערב ולא וגו', כי אלהים שופט וגו' ושלמה המלך ע"ה אמר (משלי כ"ג): "אל תיגע להעשיר מבינתך חדל". אלא הדרך האמיתי הוא דרכם של החסידים הראשונים עושים תורתן עיקר ומלאכתן תפלה, וזה וזה נתקיים בידם, כי כיון שעשה אדם קצת מלאכה משם והלאה אין לו אלא לבטוח בקונו ולא להצטער על שום דבר עולמי, אז תשאר דעתו פנויה ולבו מוכן לחסידות האמיתי ולעבודה התמימה:
A person could have sat idle and the decree would have been fulfilled (his designated portion would have come to him), had it not been preceded by the fine imposed on every human being: "by the sweat of your brow shall you eat bread" (Gen.3:19), whereby a person is required to make some effort for obtaining his livelihood, for thus the exalted King decreed.
This is like a tax imposed on the human race which one cannot escape from paying. Therefore, our sages, of blessed memory, said (Sifri 15:18): "I might think one can sit idle, but scripture says (Devarim 28:20): 'in all that you set your hand to do' ".
Only that it is not the efforts (hishtadlut) that help. Rather, the efforts are necessary, but once one has put in some effort, he has already discharged his obligation and there is place for the blessing of Heaven to rest upon him, and he need not consume his days in exertion and labor. This is what king David said: "For not from the east or from the west, nor from... but it is G-d who executes judgment, [putting down one and lifting up another]" (Tehilim 75:7-8), and king Shlomo said: "Do not weary yourself to grow rich; cease applying your understanding" (Mishlei 23:4).
Rather, the true path is that of the "early Pious ones", who made their Torah primary and their work secondary, and succeeded in both (Berachot 35b). For once a man does a little work, from then on, he need only trust in his Master, and not be distressed by any worldly matters. Then his mind will be free and his heart ready for true Chasidut and perfect divine service.
Thanks I know about מאמר הקויוי. (I used Brisk since that is a system that people follow, and others חובות הלבבות.) When Big people say that חובות הלבבות is the Shulchan Aruch on bitachon, as they said in all yeshivos in Europe, I always understood that was the standard. But what does that mean to you?
See my clarification above. Not sure what you mean by Brisk vs. others; this is pretty mainstream and accepted by our gedolim.
The line about that we aren't trying hard enough was meant to put into perspective that we are on the front lines in our own way, even though it doesn't quite feel that way. It should've been more clear...
I don't understand your arguments Happy. David says it quite plainly: "The soldiers... play it out on the physical plane, but... it is Avodas Hashem that truly affects the outcome." I.e. it is *not* the soldiers that *truly* affect the outcome, *rather* Avodas Hashem, so he is clearly saying that the soldiers are *not* doing Avodas Hashem.
So the question returns - is being Moser Nefesh for Klal Yisroel in a Milchemes Mitzva not being considered Avodas Hashem - is this mainstream Charedi perspective? Or anyone's perspective for that matter besides David?
Does Intrigued=Natan? You couldn't have misinterpreted it worse if you tried. You omitted the previous sentence where he says "not those who are *simply acting* as soldiers." A religious soldier is not simply acting as a soldier but as a servant of Hashem. How could you possibly interpret that as a religious soldier is *not* doing Avodas Hashem?
I don't think anybody holds that a secular person who was never מקבל עול מלכות שמים could be a servant of Hashem. Maybe from a deep hassidic perspective, because of his pintele Yid?
Sorry for my absence, I've been trying to stay offline. I had emailed Happy שיחיה an idea for a post earlier last week and found out this morning that he posted it (he tried to reach me earlier).
I've been reading the comments, and I just looked at the previous posts and Slifkin's latest posts (as well as the comment sections there) and I want to clarify a few things that are important in context:
1) I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, or rather if I insinuated differently: I have nothing but respect for the Tzahal. People willing to put themselves in the line of fire is a noble cause by any standards (so long as the cause of the country is acceptable). Even leaving aside the עבודת השם aspect - simply the fact that they are living selfless lives is an extremely high Jewish value. I can't stress this enough. Being selfless is what it's all about. And for that I am dust under their feet. I try to live my life on such a selfless standard by doing what Hashem wants, not what I want, and that is really, really hard - it's even death itself. But, it is not the actual קיום of בכל נפשכם. Putting your *actual life* at risk is extremely noble. The words I'm using here are clumsy in describing my sentiments but I hope you read into them fully.
This is besides for the fact that most of these soldiers are our very brothers (and sisters) and we should be feeling their anxiety and pain, the pain of their wives and families. The many stresses of real war is not a joke and we should not be undermining it in any way whatsoever. I live in America and it's relatively comfortable here (בלע"ה), but my thoughts are constantly about these soldiers, our brothers, that חלילה nothing happen to them. The offensive into Gaza is imminent (it's been 'imminent' for a while now...) and only Hashem knows מי יחיה ומי ימות. They, and their families, know this all too well and we must be very careful not to undermine the cause in any way, especially now when they are literally preparing themselves for actual war.
Even more, for most of these people, it *is* עבודת השם, not just buried deep down. They know, especially now, that their hands are in a Higher Power's hands, whether they are only mildly religious or were completely not. Many have been spreading messages across social media to this effect, and אחינו בנ"י in these times come together and pray and wear Tzitzis, and more.
2) All I came to say, without being aware of the debates already growing in the comment section of Slifkin's blog, was that while there is a physical battle taking place, there is also a spiritual battle in front of us. The Jewish response to an עת צרה, especially for someone who is not on the battle ground, is תשובה, תפילה וצדקה. We know that whatever Hashem serves us in this world is a message, for those who are listening, to do תשובה. If we do תשובה, we will see Hashem's good hand. If we don't ר"ל, the message will be given differently ל"ע. We are not נביאים and we will never know for certain which issues need fixing, and none of us can point with confidence to any particular issue, but כלל ישראל is made of individuals who come together to make a community, and the individual's job is to look inward and do his own personal תשובה. My job is to do me, your job is to do you. But all of us who strengthen our עבודת השם יתברך in a real way are responding to this צרה נוראה properly. We, as chareidim, believe that the true message is for those who can receive the message: Hashem wants more from us! My first and last paragraphs were stressing this point, that it isn't a joke when we say it is up to us. This is not to undermine the war efforts, but it is supposed to be a push that we take our own עבודה seriously and realize that, in a sense, we are on the front lines. Just like a soldier is responsible for being strong and the army is the country's defense, we too have a similar אחריות to try and keep the nation safe, through our עבודה and תשובה. Just like we expect the army to have a good strategy and that is what keeps the nation protected, we must have a strategy in fighting on the very real spiritual front.
3) Even when soldiers go to battle, it is up to HKBH what will happen. That is undeniable. While our brothers do their part on the battleground, HKBH will decide their fate. In history, we are told to look at the spiritual front as the cause of success on the physical front. This should not at all undermine the physical front; rather it should embolden us, who are busy on the spiritual front, to strengthen our own war efforts because lives are at stake.
The last paragraph could definitely have been written better and I accept the blame for any misunderstandings. My point was to be a chizuk. Especially to those who are learning and davening it's very easy to get sucked into the idea that we aren't really doing anything. It's hard to feel like we're accomplishing when you're *just* Saying Tehilim and learning extra. My point was, NO! You really are! Our efforts on the spiritual front really matter! Again, not in the same way as those going to war. But our part is equally important.
"and that is really, really hard - it's even death itself."
......spare us, please......
Do you know how insulting and callous that is to those that have experienced death itself?
Do you really believe the trash you write, or are you just brainwashed? One moment charedie 'benei torah' are like 'sheivet levi', then they on the madreigah of Dovid Hamelech (or was it Chizkiyoh Hamelech?, don't care) and now it is even 'death itself'.
i think he was referring to ממית עצמו עליה...
That's not what he wrote. It was all in the first person. And how many people are 'memies atzmo' these days.
But that is the point - chareidim confuse the life they claim to be leading with the life 99% of them actually do live. Delsusions of grandaur. And they claim delusions should privilige them in all sorts of ways.
Which is why my comments about matters such as minyan factories (which are still booming, despite the 'matzav') strike such a raw nerve and trigger the most gratitious insults.
No, we find you minyan factory comments annoying because nobody here attends the 11:00 shacharis besides for, apparently, you. Same with gazing at other people's wives and gawking at people in the mikvah. You are the only person here that does that, yet project your issues onto everybody else. That's a sign of some sort of sickness.
Yawn. I didn't suggest anybody here does it.
More gratuitous insults proving my point!
"Do you know how insulting and callous that is to those that have experienced death itself?"
No. Tell me about the afterlife.
ר' דוד שליט"א,
I don't disagree with the main מהלך
I just want to point out that many of the חיילים (including one of my sons and some of my relatives who are now in the army, and some of my friends who are in the army) are frum yidden
Of course, I don't think Dovid is denying that! He is just pointing out what the main focus should be on.
ב"ה!
So I misunderstood.
May Hashem be with your son and all the soldiers, and may they achieve a quick and decisive victory!
אמן
Sorry I wasn't clear...
Being moser nefesh for klal yisrael to fight in a milchemes mitzvah is not avodas Hashem?! Is that really the mainstream charedi perspective?
Where did you get that from? Do ever stop making stuff up?
Also, you can post under your regular account, nobody banned or blocked you here, despite your never ending misrepresentations and mischaracterizations.
See my comment below, please. I don't think this is quite fair.
I don't think this is the real Slifkin above, as it doesn't mention his substack blog next to his name, looks like a troll.
I believe it is
So you think he has 2 accounts?
This is definitely not his regular account, as you can see if you click on his name.
I think you're right lol
natan actual slifkin can you confirm?
his style is the same tho (massive compliment if you are a troll)
It's what he says in the last paragraph. Maybe he didn't mean it, maybe he wants to take it back, but that's what he wrote.
You have to be reading it in extraordinarily bad faith to come to that conclusion. A religious soldier who is being moser nefesh for klal Yisrael is engaging in avodas Hashem, he never said differently.
Yes he did say differently. He said thay the soldiers are just messengers and are not fighting the real battle.
And what about secular soldiers? (Who probably also believe in Hashem, even if they are not religious, but it's not even relevant). Are they not doing a tremendously mitzvah?
No, he said that the soldiers are playing it out on the physical plane. A religious soldier is playing both roles, the spiritual and the physical. A secular soldier will get schar for his mitzva, just like any secular person or non-Jew who helps Jews or other people, but he is probably not engaging in avodas Hashem.
Serving כלל ישראל is serving Hashem even if its not conscious.
So if he's doing a tremendous mitzvah, why is it not going to affect the outcome?!
I think it wasn't written so clearly, but you know what he meant, don't you?
You're both right. Anyone who saves someone else's life is doing a huge mitzva. Obviously.
But reality is spiritual. The physical is an illusion.
And that's the dialectic of Judaism. We believe our actions are necessary, and their spiritual impact is what's important.
How do you know what is going on in the minyan factories? How do you know they are still booming? Do you stand outside them all day counting how many people attend??
ע' מסילת ישרים סוף פרק י' ומקורו מזוה"ק (מקץ קצח,א-ב).
Since Slifkin is censoring comments on his latest post (https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/what-charedim-need-to-understand), I decided to post my comment here:
"First of all, thanks for providing this perspective in a more sensitive manner than your usual posts, with far less invective, it must have been hard for you.
Nevertheless, you are still deeply mistaken. You are mistaken about the alleged lack of merit of Torah study for two reasons. The first is that the chareidi poskim are much greater than the Dati poskim, let's be real, even many of them admit it. So why in the world would their opinion on this issue matter to Chareidim? But more importantly, even from a Dati perspective, this wouldn't mean that the Torah of chareidi bachurim and yungeleit attains no merit. Even according to Bais Hillel, the followers of Bais Shammai attain merit for following him and are serving Hashem alongside Bais Hillel, ק"ו בן בנו של ק"ו בנדונינו.
You are also mistaken about the importance of Torah study, even from a Dati perspective. Nobody has a problem with the concept that a technician or an engineer plays and equally vital role in the war as the combat soldier, despite the fact that their lives are at much less risk. This is because everybody recognizes the importance of an engineer to the war effort. From a Torah perspective, whether Chareidi or Dati (but perhaps not from a "Rationalist Judaism" perspective), the merit of Torah scholars is equally if not more important to the engineer. I don't know about your daughter, as females are not מצווה in Talmud Torah, but the merits of your son's Torah study are certainly *not* eclipsed by the merit of him actually serving in the IDF. So the outrage over this "tone deaf" equivalency, and the disingenuous deflection towards the fact that they are not risking their lives, can only come from somebody who does not appreciate the merit of Torah and Mitzvos compared to engineering, ie the secularist "rationalist" perspective.
Finally, you are mistaken about the magnitude of the dispute between the chareidi poskim, and l'havdil, the Dati poskim. You write in parentheses "There may be an exception for a very small number of elite scholars whose mission is to be teachers of the nation, if they are not needed for the war effort, but there is certainly no exemption for standard yeshivah students." Hmmm. This means the Dati poskim do *not* hold everybody must serve in the army, but admit plenty of exceptions. So too the chareidi poskim, they just don't limit those exception to the arbitrary and self-serving category of "elite scholars", but to anybody who wants to make תורתו אומנתו.
In the end of the day, the people who are outraged at this are going to be the ones who are looking for an excuse to be outraged at Chareidim in general, these are probably the one you surround yourself with. For them it is always a good time to incite hatred, and now is as good a time as any else. But people with straight heads will not feel that way. And anecdotally, I know plenty of chareidi and non-chareidi people with relatives who are called up, and I am hearing only positive things, not resentment and certainly not rifts. We have even published a post on Irrationalist Modoxism from somebody who was called up, I hope this makes you happy rather than upset."
There's also this:
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-fox-the-skeptic-and-the-politics
"Currently, the Right is winning. This means that the majority of tech companies are investigating transferring out of Israel, a significant percentage of the population will simply leave, the country will rapidly get even more extreme right-wing/religious, and the international political fallout will be enormous. The economy will crash, the political alliances will dissolve, and the State will fall prey to its enemies, who are already cackling with glee at what is happening. Israel will end up, just as in the Second Temple Era, falling victim to those who insist on confrontation and are certain that they have God on their side."
Combined with this.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/hyraxes-vs-hamas
"Hamas’ strategy is based on the belief that we are European colonialists. Palestinian propaganda is fundamentally based around this, which is why they even deny the existence of the Temple. When life becomes too difficult for colonialists, they return back to their country of origin. And so they are convinced that this is what will happen to us."
...
... Colonialists give up. Indigenous natives do not. We are here to stay."
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I guess the dilemma in Rationalist Judea is whether to stay to spite Hamas, or leave to spite charedim.
I get the point of the article, but let me point out that the words "physical motions", implies that hishtadlus is like some charade. There is such an opinion (Brisk), but the Chovos Halevavos describes hishtadlus like Hashem putting the plate in front of us, and it's our job to lift the food to our mouths. That means that although the Shefa is coming from Hashem we are definitely doing something.
Now Bitachon is even more important when hishtadlus is impossible, like by Chizkiyahu, when 180,000 solders besieged a city, and Chizkiyahu didn't even daven. He then fully trusted that only Hashem could save. On the other hand David needed to do fight since it was possible, and still had to remember it was all Hashem.
In our case, when Hishdadlus is being done by the אפשר לעשות על ידי אחרים ואנו לומדים לזכותם, we recognize that Hashem judges us my our merits and it is our duty to increase them.
One comment you made really bothered me: "If we find more issues and deaths ר"ל, it’s because we aren’t trying hard enough." Chas veshalom. You are not a Navi to explain דרכי השם or to apply Bitachon-Game-theory. We try are best, hope for the best, and sometimes there's something called a gezaira, or other people's avairos. I hope that's not the case, but please, stay away from the blame game and just focus on increasing zechusim, without any ultimatums.
Which part of Brisk is in Amsterdam?
The Ramchal writes this clearly:
וכבר היה אדם יכול להיות יושב ובטל והגזירה (גזירת קיצבת מזונות שקצבו לו בראש השנה) היתה מתקיימת, אם לא שקדם הקנס לכל בני אדם, (בראשית ג): בזעת אפך תאכל לחם, אשר על כן חייב אדם להשתדל איזה השתדלות לצורך פרנסתו, שכן גזר המלך העליון, והרי זה כמס שפורע כל המין האנושי אשר אין להמלט ממנו:
על כן (הואיל וכך גזר המלך) אמרו (ספרי): יכול אפילו יושב ובטל (יראה סימן ברכה) תלמוד לומר: בכל משלח ידך אשר תעשה (שצריך אתה להשתדל ולעשות), אך לא שההשתדלות הוא המועיל, אלא שהשתדלות מוכרח, וכיון שהשתדל הרי יצא ידי חובתו, וכבר יש מקום לברכת שמים שתשרה עליו ואינו צריך לבלות ימיו בחריצות והשתדלות, הוא מה שכתב דוד המלך ע"ה (תהלים ט"ה): כי לא ממוצא וממערב ולא וגו', כי אלהים שופט וגו' ושלמה המלך ע"ה אמר (משלי כ"ג): "אל תיגע להעשיר מבינתך חדל". אלא הדרך האמיתי הוא דרכם של החסידים הראשונים עושים תורתן עיקר ומלאכתן תפלה, וזה וזה נתקיים בידם, כי כיון שעשה אדם קצת מלאכה משם והלאה אין לו אלא לבטוח בקונו ולא להצטער על שום דבר עולמי, אז תשאר דעתו פנויה ולבו מוכן לחסידות האמיתי ולעבודה התמימה:
A person could have sat idle and the decree would have been fulfilled (his designated portion would have come to him), had it not been preceded by the fine imposed on every human being: "by the sweat of your brow shall you eat bread" (Gen.3:19), whereby a person is required to make some effort for obtaining his livelihood, for thus the exalted King decreed.
This is like a tax imposed on the human race which one cannot escape from paying. Therefore, our sages, of blessed memory, said (Sifri 15:18): "I might think one can sit idle, but scripture says (Devarim 28:20): 'in all that you set your hand to do' ".
Only that it is not the efforts (hishtadlut) that help. Rather, the efforts are necessary, but once one has put in some effort, he has already discharged his obligation and there is place for the blessing of Heaven to rest upon him, and he need not consume his days in exertion and labor. This is what king David said: "For not from the east or from the west, nor from... but it is G-d who executes judgment, [putting down one and lifting up another]" (Tehilim 75:7-8), and king Shlomo said: "Do not weary yourself to grow rich; cease applying your understanding" (Mishlei 23:4).
Rather, the true path is that of the "early Pious ones", who made their Torah primary and their work secondary, and succeeded in both (Berachot 35b). For once a man does a little work, from then on, he need only trust in his Master, and not be distressed by any worldly matters. Then his mind will be free and his heart ready for true Chasidut and perfect divine service.
Thanks I know about מאמר הקויוי. (I used Brisk since that is a system that people follow, and others חובות הלבבות.) When Big people say that חובות הלבבות is the Shulchan Aruch on bitachon, as they said in all yeshivos in Europe, I always understood that was the standard. But what does that mean to you?
See my clarification above. Not sure what you mean by Brisk vs. others; this is pretty mainstream and accepted by our gedolim.
The line about that we aren't trying hard enough was meant to put into perspective that we are on the front lines in our own way, even though it doesn't quite feel that way. It should've been more clear...
I said I agree with the main point. 'Our Gedolim' can mean many people but many held the חובות הלבבות as standard. see my comment to זכרון דברים
Thanks for the clarification.
I don't understand your arguments Happy. David says it quite plainly: "The soldiers... play it out on the physical plane, but... it is Avodas Hashem that truly affects the outcome." I.e. it is *not* the soldiers that *truly* affect the outcome, *rather* Avodas Hashem, so he is clearly saying that the soldiers are *not* doing Avodas Hashem.
So the question returns - is being Moser Nefesh for Klal Yisroel in a Milchemes Mitzva not being considered Avodas Hashem - is this mainstream Charedi perspective? Or anyone's perspective for that matter besides David?
I would love to see a source for this.
Does Intrigued=Natan? You couldn't have misinterpreted it worse if you tried. You omitted the previous sentence where he says "not those who are *simply acting* as soldiers." A religious soldier is not simply acting as a soldier but as a servant of Hashem. How could you possibly interpret that as a religious soldier is *not* doing Avodas Hashem?
I don't think anybody holds that a secular person who was never מקבל עול מלכות שמים could be a servant of Hashem. Maybe from a deep hassidic perspective, because of his pintele Yid?
A. See my comment above, since I also misunderstood ר' דוד שליט"א, and you corrected my misunderstanding.
B. Many "secular" soldiers are not that secular, since they are מסורתי. They daven, and are partially מקיים מצוות .
C. Completely secular soldiers also had a very very big jolt, and have הרהורי תשובה
There is a demand for ציציות ותהילים
https://www.inn.co.il/news/617051