I mean in no way to be offensive as I ask these questions. I am merely curious how exactly Limmud HaTorah works vis-a-vis protection. Can someone answer these questions:
1. How many talmidim and avreichem need to be learning at any one time in order for the protection to work? In 1948 - Ben Gurion allowed 400 pturim amounting to roughly ~0.5% of the population. Now there are at least ~150-180K Haredi avreichim and talmidim learning full time (1.7-2%) - is the % increase important to the protection?
2. Do they have to be full time "learners"? The same way some yeshiva students will eventually go out to work (and stop learning full time), couldn't talmidim learn for 3 years and then go to the army while a new crop of younger talmidim will take their place?
3. With that in mind, do Dati Leumi hesder yeshivot students (who learn for 18 months, serve in the army - usually in combat units for 18 months and then learn for another 24 months) count? If no, why not? If yes, why can't haredi yeshiva students do the same?
4. If you have enough learning going on, is there any need for an army? If no, how do we explain to the families of the roughly 20K soldiers who have fallen over the years that there was really no need for them to have been fighting in the first place?
5. Assuming that an army is always needed (to do the physical fighting while the learners learn), how can a person simply decide that he wants to be a learner (where the most danger will be the occasional papercut or eye strain headache) leaving others to be in mortal danger? Shouldn't there be a system (like in the army) where there are gibushim to determine who gets to do what? The top learners (from across the different Israeli communities) can qualify to learn.
Again, I mean no offense as I ask these questions - just trying to understand the different perspectives.
1. The answer is probably not set in stone, and obviously this is a question only God can answer. But it is clear that the more Torah that is being learned, the more Divine protection we merit. When there are only rare individuals learning Torah, that protection is going to be weaker.
2. It makes no difference. The difference is how much Torah is being learned. But obviously full-time students are learning more than part-time students. And students that eventually go to work - while they are learning their Torah is just as valuable. Once they go to work, they are not putting in the same hours anymore.
3. Again, during those 18 months their Torah is valuable, once they go to the army, they are not learning anymore, so we no longer have that protection.
5. In a perfect world where everyone in the State was learning, then maybe we would need such a system. But being that unfortunately that's not the case, it makes more sense to have the people who are not benefitting the country with their Torah actually do something to protect the state. This is the rationale proposed in the Talmud Bava Basra 8a as well. And I definitely would not leave the decision of who serves and who doesn't up to irreligious army officers.
I would diverge a little bit from my good friend and partner Mecharker's opinion for #2 and #3. It is ok if we disagree here and there!
In my very humble opinion, if the Gedolim felt there was no risk to religion from sending chareidi boys to the army, they would be ok with it (for most boys) and even encourage it, and the merit of both learning and keeping the Torah would protect Israel. But realistically, that would only happen when most of the population in the country and the army is Shomrei Torah. Hopefully we will get there soon. Currently, they feel (and I think very justifiably) that there is a high risk that their boys would go OTD or become secularist like Slifkin, in which case sending them would neither protect the chareidim nor the rest of the country, and would in fact be detrimental.
Yes, I agree with that. I was talking about in the theoretical sense that there was no spiritual problem with the army at all, and theoretically taking only into account the Torah's protection.
Also, I would like to make myself more clear regarding #4. If everyone in the country was religious and learning Torah and doing mitzvos like the Chareidim and the Chardal, there would indeed be very little need for a real army.
Not sure about little need for a real army. In the times of Moshe and Dovid, when they were not sinning so much, they had a real army. Maybe you mean Mashiach will come very soon וכתתו חרבותם לאתים!!!
Perhaps a small army, maybe something like what Switzerland has, but when we do the ratzon Hashem, we are not in the same danger as when we don't. And the Gemara says that Talmidei Chachamim who are actively learning do not need protection. During Moshe Rabbeinu, the army was mostly for offensive measures.
So if the amount of Torah learning that goes on during Bein Hazmanim is sufficient for protection, why do we need full time Kollel throughout the year? Certainly you agree that the learning during Bein Hazmanim is a fraction of what it normally is?
What I meant is the following, and I regret not making myself clear in the post: I am pretty sure that the idea that Torah protects is not limited to the study of Torah, but keeping the Torah as well. However, learning Torah is כנגד כולם and is one of the most important if not most important part of keeping the Torah, for many reasons.
If so, the question is, why is there Bain Hazmanim at all? Forget about Torah's protection for a minute, why isn't it simple bittul Torah? And the answer is that without Bain Hazmanim, there would be LESS Torah learning, as the students would get burned out (I happen to think there is way more Bain Hazmanim than necessary, and so did Rav Shach, apparently, but he felt he couldn't change it).
My point was to show that students are still keeping the Torah during Bain Hazmanim, which includes learning during Bain Hazmanim. The fact that they are learning less is the point of Bain Hazmanim in the first place. May it be the will of Hashem that the Torah that the God-fearing Jews learn and keep should find favor in His eyes and protect us all, both during the zman and Bain Hazmanim. Amen.
Your point about doing other mitzvos is insufficient, because the question is specifically about the kollel system. We agree that mitzvos should be done by everyone whenever they can, and whenever there is an obligation, but this is not unique to kollel learners. The question remains: if the kollel system is providing protection, and a fraction of the Torah is learned during Bein Hazmanim, why can we not survive on this fraction of Torah learning throughout the rest of the year? You say that students would get burned out - that too is insufficient to answer the question. That is a practical consideration, and one I don't disagree with, but the question still remains that a fraction of the Torah is being learned during Bein Hazmanim, and we are all fine with this.
Because it doesn't work so formulaically. It's not pshat that learning all day provides 100 units of protection, and learning for three hours provides 20 units of protection.
Rather, when the Jews do the will of Hashem, He shines His face towards them, blesses them, and protects them from all sorts of evil fates. This applies to the nation as a whole, to parts of the nation, and to individuals, all in different degrees, all according to the wisdom of the יודע תעלומות.
Of course, תלמוד תורה is one of the most important if not most important things we can do. You are correct that the merit of Torah and Mitzvos is not unique to kollel learners. It applies to kollel learners, their wives, and to ba'alei batim as well.
But the opposite is also true. When Jews sin, when they are not observant, when they are secularist, that invites the wrath of Hashem. The reason for the kollel system in Israel is because of the high risk of becoming secularist when joining the army, ie going OTD. Israel would not be safer if chareidim would pull their sons out of yeshiva and send them to the army, but the opposite.
"The reason for the kollel system in Israel is because of the high risk of becoming secularist when joining the army, ie going OTD"
So now you have provided two reasons for kollel. One, the money (you wrote clearly that don't get paid enough to reduce their ridiculously excessive vacation time and spend more time in kollel). Two, to prevent them going OTD in the Israeli army.
I suppose you could use that for not going to work either. Not a great statement in support of chareidi chinuch, mind you.
And I thought kollel had something to do with talmud torah 'lishmoh'
Torah is lishmah. Not going OTD is also lishmah. In fact they are interconnected, keeping the Torah in a highly secular world. Which is why there is kollel in America also, although most end up working.
You respond too quickly, you don't think through your responses properly, and you don't review them before sending.
That is symptomatic of most of the yeshivah world. How often to you see a chavruso where each contemplate the other's response for several minutes before responding? Nope, in the vast majority of cases it's an instant, often shouted, response. Which is why the standard of learning is appallingly low considering the numbers.
What's there to answer? Wasn't Rav Edelstein pushing for more Torah learning during Bein Hazmanim? I doubt there would be more Torah learning if they got rid of Bein Hazmanim completely.
Rubbish. Some masmidim may learn long hours, but they carry on throughout bein hazmanim anyway. The vast majority of kollel people and bochurim are not masmiddim and are generally very relaxed about the whole thing. After all, what they are paid bears no resemblance to the quality of output (unlike of course the professions, which is much more intense. Bonusus and avoiding losing a job are great incentivisors to work hard.
I am not sure what Rav Shach's wishes have to do with anything other than proving my point. There is zero justification for these long vacations.
The sedorim in several kollelim near me are broadly 9ish to 1ish and 3ish to 7ish. What exactly is taxing about that (even assuming they all roll in on time, which some do not)? And conveniently ignoring the groups of 2 to 3 'chillin' outside (some smoking, some not) whenever I pass - remarked on by several local ba'alei battim.
And to me, when I see kollel people coming to daily shacharis late (like the ba'alei battim) it is a massive chillul hashem. Even those that daven at 8AM, many miss karbonos.
Of course, they have a tirutz - shacharis really starts at borchu. There is no leniency that they do that they cannot justify in 'halochoh'. How it appears to the rest of the world is neither here nor there.
"Go into any Bais Medrash during Bein Hazmanim and you will see plenty of people learning, albeit less people and not the yeshiva hours."
Indeed. And that does not only apply to chareidim. Plenty of peope who are not in kollel (about whom you claim are often machaleli shabbos) fill the beis hamedrach all day.
I remember a kollel chap announcing proudly 'We don't take a break Christmas/New year period like those ba'al habatim from work, we learn straight through". He looked most abashed when I pointed out to him that the kollel system has 4.5+3+3=10.5 week paid vacation every year, plus erev shevous, erev RH and erev YK, genrally ta'anesim 0.5 days each totalling another 3-6 days off, plus as and when wife has a baby/children need the doctor, an unspecified and unqueried amount of time off as and when needed.
Nobody else gets that amount of laxity. Nobody has explained to me why they need the full chodesh nissan off learning. Or the week after sukkos.
It's all about the money is it? What a damming indictment from you. So much for the rambam sof shmittoh v'yovel etc. They take off full chodesh nissan because they don't get paid enough.
Thank you for proving my oft made point. Many are only there for the money. The torah is just the keili. That contravenes several ma'amorei chazal, as well as the overall hetter to take money for learhing, but that's quite typical in chareidi land, where everything is cherry picked and twisted l'kulah when its chareidi land practices, but twisted and cherry picked l'chumrah for everyone else. And you think torah for money protects?
Not sure what this word salad is supposed to mean, but in the previous comment you indicated that you think people learn in kollel in order to get rich, which is a pretty stupid thing to think
It goes like this (yeshivish sing-song): If Chazal (and Tanach) were right that Torah really protects, how come yeshivos go on Bein Hazmanim? After all, the army never goes on vacation? Clearly Torah doesn't protect, and Chazal were again wrong. QED.
Where does he write that? In fact, he writes what you claim he doesn't write;
"Mimah nafshach. If the charedim really do believe that their Torah provides spatially and temporally concentrated protection, then the schedule of the yeshivah system shows that they are deserting their duties and causing deaths. And if they don’t really believe that (which in my view is likely the case), then they should stop using that as an excuse not to enlist in the IDF. It’s as simple as that."
You even can't quote correctly before you critique.
You do realize soliders get time off, even combat soldiers? My then combat solider sons both got about 10 days off so we could spend my father's 80th birthday together in America. It took a lot of effort, but they both got in the end. In a time of war, this opportunity is curtailed or eliminated, exactly like gedolim are talking about, but during normal times, which is most of the time, no.
As was also pointed out, even during bein hazmanin, the batei midrash are still full of our troops. The difference is, ours volunteer for extra duty.
Given how retarded your assumptions are, the rest of your verbiage is not worth reading or responding to.
I mean in no way to be offensive as I ask these questions. I am merely curious how exactly Limmud HaTorah works vis-a-vis protection. Can someone answer these questions:
1. How many talmidim and avreichem need to be learning at any one time in order for the protection to work? In 1948 - Ben Gurion allowed 400 pturim amounting to roughly ~0.5% of the population. Now there are at least ~150-180K Haredi avreichim and talmidim learning full time (1.7-2%) - is the % increase important to the protection?
2. Do they have to be full time "learners"? The same way some yeshiva students will eventually go out to work (and stop learning full time), couldn't talmidim learn for 3 years and then go to the army while a new crop of younger talmidim will take their place?
3. With that in mind, do Dati Leumi hesder yeshivot students (who learn for 18 months, serve in the army - usually in combat units for 18 months and then learn for another 24 months) count? If no, why not? If yes, why can't haredi yeshiva students do the same?
4. If you have enough learning going on, is there any need for an army? If no, how do we explain to the families of the roughly 20K soldiers who have fallen over the years that there was really no need for them to have been fighting in the first place?
5. Assuming that an army is always needed (to do the physical fighting while the learners learn), how can a person simply decide that he wants to be a learner (where the most danger will be the occasional papercut or eye strain headache) leaving others to be in mortal danger? Shouldn't there be a system (like in the army) where there are gibushim to determine who gets to do what? The top learners (from across the different Israeli communities) can qualify to learn.
Again, I mean no offense as I ask these questions - just trying to understand the different perspectives.
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1. The answer is probably not set in stone, and obviously this is a question only God can answer. But it is clear that the more Torah that is being learned, the more Divine protection we merit. When there are only rare individuals learning Torah, that protection is going to be weaker.
2. It makes no difference. The difference is how much Torah is being learned. But obviously full-time students are learning more than part-time students. And students that eventually go to work - while they are learning their Torah is just as valuable. Once they go to work, they are not putting in the same hours anymore.
3. Again, during those 18 months their Torah is valuable, once they go to the army, they are not learning anymore, so we no longer have that protection.
4. See here https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-parable-of-the-drowning-man
5. In a perfect world where everyone in the State was learning, then maybe we would need such a system. But being that unfortunately that's not the case, it makes more sense to have the people who are not benefitting the country with their Torah actually do something to protect the state. This is the rationale proposed in the Talmud Bava Basra 8a as well. And I definitely would not leave the decision of who serves and who doesn't up to irreligious army officers.
I would diverge a little bit from my good friend and partner Mecharker's opinion for #2 and #3. It is ok if we disagree here and there!
In my very humble opinion, if the Gedolim felt there was no risk to religion from sending chareidi boys to the army, they would be ok with it (for most boys) and even encourage it, and the merit of both learning and keeping the Torah would protect Israel. But realistically, that would only happen when most of the population in the country and the army is Shomrei Torah. Hopefully we will get there soon. Currently, they feel (and I think very justifiably) that there is a high risk that their boys would go OTD or become secularist like Slifkin, in which case sending them would neither protect the chareidim nor the rest of the country, and would in fact be detrimental.
Yes, I agree with that. I was talking about in the theoretical sense that there was no spiritual problem with the army at all, and theoretically taking only into account the Torah's protection.
Also, I would like to make myself more clear regarding #4. If everyone in the country was religious and learning Torah and doing mitzvos like the Chareidim and the Chardal, there would indeed be very little need for a real army.
Not sure about little need for a real army. In the times of Moshe and Dovid, when they were not sinning so much, they had a real army. Maybe you mean Mashiach will come very soon וכתתו חרבותם לאתים!!!
Perhaps a small army, maybe something like what Switzerland has, but when we do the ratzon Hashem, we are not in the same danger as when we don't. And the Gemara says that Talmidei Chachamim who are actively learning do not need protection. During Moshe Rabbeinu, the army was mostly for offensive measures.
So if the amount of Torah learning that goes on during Bein Hazmanim is sufficient for protection, why do we need full time Kollel throughout the year? Certainly you agree that the learning during Bein Hazmanim is a fraction of what it normally is?
What I meant is the following, and I regret not making myself clear in the post: I am pretty sure that the idea that Torah protects is not limited to the study of Torah, but keeping the Torah as well. However, learning Torah is כנגד כולם and is one of the most important if not most important part of keeping the Torah, for many reasons.
If so, the question is, why is there Bain Hazmanim at all? Forget about Torah's protection for a minute, why isn't it simple bittul Torah? And the answer is that without Bain Hazmanim, there would be LESS Torah learning, as the students would get burned out (I happen to think there is way more Bain Hazmanim than necessary, and so did Rav Shach, apparently, but he felt he couldn't change it).
My point was to show that students are still keeping the Torah during Bain Hazmanim, which includes learning during Bain Hazmanim. The fact that they are learning less is the point of Bain Hazmanim in the first place. May it be the will of Hashem that the Torah that the God-fearing Jews learn and keep should find favor in His eyes and protect us all, both during the zman and Bain Hazmanim. Amen.
Your point about doing other mitzvos is insufficient, because the question is specifically about the kollel system. We agree that mitzvos should be done by everyone whenever they can, and whenever there is an obligation, but this is not unique to kollel learners. The question remains: if the kollel system is providing protection, and a fraction of the Torah is learned during Bein Hazmanim, why can we not survive on this fraction of Torah learning throughout the rest of the year? You say that students would get burned out - that too is insufficient to answer the question. That is a practical consideration, and one I don't disagree with, but the question still remains that a fraction of the Torah is being learned during Bein Hazmanim, and we are all fine with this.
Because it doesn't work so formulaically. It's not pshat that learning all day provides 100 units of protection, and learning for three hours provides 20 units of protection.
Rather, when the Jews do the will of Hashem, He shines His face towards them, blesses them, and protects them from all sorts of evil fates. This applies to the nation as a whole, to parts of the nation, and to individuals, all in different degrees, all according to the wisdom of the יודע תעלומות.
Of course, תלמוד תורה is one of the most important if not most important things we can do. You are correct that the merit of Torah and Mitzvos is not unique to kollel learners. It applies to kollel learners, their wives, and to ba'alei batim as well.
But the opposite is also true. When Jews sin, when they are not observant, when they are secularist, that invites the wrath of Hashem. The reason for the kollel system in Israel is because of the high risk of becoming secularist when joining the army, ie going OTD. Israel would not be safer if chareidim would pull their sons out of yeshiva and send them to the army, but the opposite.
"The reason for the kollel system in Israel is because of the high risk of becoming secularist when joining the army, ie going OTD"
So now you have provided two reasons for kollel. One, the money (you wrote clearly that don't get paid enough to reduce their ridiculously excessive vacation time and spend more time in kollel). Two, to prevent them going OTD in the Israeli army.
I suppose you could use that for not going to work either. Not a great statement in support of chareidi chinuch, mind you.
And I thought kollel had something to do with talmud torah 'lishmoh'
Silly me.
Torah is lishmah. Not going OTD is also lishmah. In fact they are interconnected, keeping the Torah in a highly secular world. Which is why there is kollel in America also, although most end up working.
"Torah is lishmoh'.
What does that mean?
You respond too quickly, you don't think through your responses properly, and you don't review them before sending.
That is symptomatic of most of the yeshivah world. How often to you see a chavruso where each contemplate the other's response for several minutes before responding? Nope, in the vast majority of cases it's an instant, often shouted, response. Which is why the standard of learning is appallingly low considering the numbers.
Well said HGL.
But Slifkin started off with the quote from Rav Edilstien that the reason for attacks is less torah learning. What is the answer to that?
What's there to answer? Wasn't Rav Edelstein pushing for more Torah learning during Bein Hazmanim? I doubt there would be more Torah learning if they got rid of Bein Hazmanim completely.
Every other profession manages without over 10 weeks vacation and no universal 'burn out'. Why do you think talmud torah is different?
You are deliberately confusing no bein hazmanim with reduced bein hazmanim.
Yeshiva schedule is more intense than most professionals. See yesterdays post that Rav Shach wanted to reduce Bain Hazmanim.
Rubbish. Some masmidim may learn long hours, but they carry on throughout bein hazmanim anyway. The vast majority of kollel people and bochurim are not masmiddim and are generally very relaxed about the whole thing. After all, what they are paid bears no resemblance to the quality of output (unlike of course the professions, which is much more intense. Bonusus and avoiding losing a job are great incentivisors to work hard.
I am not sure what Rav Shach's wishes have to do with anything other than proving my point. There is zero justification for these long vacations.
You are delusional
Also, the famous motivated and hard working professionals. Lol. I am in that world, and know exactly what you are talking about. Delusional.
The sedorim in several kollelim near me are broadly 9ish to 1ish and 3ish to 7ish. What exactly is taxing about that (even assuming they all roll in on time, which some do not)? And conveniently ignoring the groups of 2 to 3 'chillin' outside (some smoking, some not) whenever I pass - remarked on by several local ba'alei battim.
And to me, when I see kollel people coming to daily shacharis late (like the ba'alei battim) it is a massive chillul hashem. Even those that daven at 8AM, many miss karbonos.
Of course, they have a tirutz - shacharis really starts at borchu. There is no leniency that they do that they cannot justify in 'halochoh'. How it appears to the rest of the world is neither here nor there.
Good point.
"Go into any Bais Medrash during Bein Hazmanim and you will see plenty of people learning, albeit less people and not the yeshiva hours."
Indeed. And that does not only apply to chareidim. Plenty of peope who are not in kollel (about whom you claim are often machaleli shabbos) fill the beis hamedrach all day.
I remember a kollel chap announcing proudly 'We don't take a break Christmas/New year period like those ba'al habatim from work, we learn straight through". He looked most abashed when I pointed out to him that the kollel system has 4.5+3+3=10.5 week paid vacation every year, plus erev shevous, erev RH and erev YK, genrally ta'anesim 0.5 days each totalling another 3-6 days off, plus as and when wife has a baby/children need the doctor, an unspecified and unqueried amount of time off as and when needed.
Nobody else gets that amount of laxity. Nobody has explained to me why they need the full chodesh nissan off learning. Or the week after sukkos.
"Nobody else gets that amount of laxity."
So start a kollel that pays them like lawyers rather than college stipends, and they will have a law office schedule. Until then, shut up.
It's all about the money is it? What a damming indictment from you. So much for the rambam sof shmittoh v'yovel etc. They take off full chodesh nissan because they don't get paid enough.
QED
If it was all about the money, they wouldn't be learning in kollel, doofus
Thank you for proving my oft made point. Many are only there for the money. The torah is just the keili. That contravenes several ma'amorei chazal, as well as the overall hetter to take money for learhing, but that's quite typical in chareidi land, where everything is cherry picked and twisted l'kulah when its chareidi land practices, but twisted and cherry picked l'chumrah for everyone else. And you think torah for money protects?
Good bye.
Not sure what this word salad is supposed to mean, but in the previous comment you indicated that you think people learn in kollel in order to get rich, which is a pretty stupid thing to think
It goes like this (yeshivish sing-song): If Chazal (and Tanach) were right that Torah really protects, how come yeshivos go on Bein Hazmanim? After all, the army never goes on vacation? Clearly Torah doesn't protect, and Chazal were again wrong. QED.
Where does he write that? In fact, he writes what you claim he doesn't write;
"Mimah nafshach. If the charedim really do believe that their Torah provides spatially and temporally concentrated protection, then the schedule of the yeshivah system shows that they are deserting their duties and causing deaths. And if they don’t really believe that (which in my view is likely the case), then they should stop using that as an excuse not to enlist in the IDF. It’s as simple as that."
You even can't quote correctly before you critique.
QED.
I did not see quatation marks around what he wrote.
It's not a quote but a summary, and from your quote, I see that it is a correct summary
"After all, the army never goes on vacation?"
You do realize soliders get time off, even combat soldiers? My then combat solider sons both got about 10 days off so we could spend my father's 80th birthday together in America. It took a lot of effort, but they both got in the end. In a time of war, this opportunity is curtailed or eliminated, exactly like gedolim are talking about, but during normal times, which is most of the time, no.
As was also pointed out, even during bein hazmanin, the batei midrash are still full of our troops. The difference is, ours volunteer for extra duty.
Given how retarded your assumptions are, the rest of your verbiage is not worth reading or responding to.
Considering that Natan went to Midrash Shmuel, I am sure he knows what Yeshivos do Bein Hazmanim.
Perhaps he forgot.
Or adraba, mabe he believes that learning while not in Yeshiva is worthless, because only Yeshiva leaning is considered learning...