I mean in no way to be offensive as I ask these questions. I am merely curious how exactly Limmud HaTorah works vis-a-vis protection. Can someone answer these questions:
1. How many talmidim and avreichem need to be learning at any one time in order for the protection to work? In 1948 - Ben Gurion allowed 400 pturim amounting to roughly ~0.5% of the population. Now there are at least ~150-180K Haredi avreichim and talmidim learning full time (1.7-2%) - is the % increase important to the protection?
2. Do they have to be full time "learners"? The same way some yeshiva students will eventually go out to work (and stop learning full time), couldn't talmidim learn for 3 years and then go to the army while a new crop of younger talmidim will take their place?
3. With that in mind, do Dati Leumi hesder yeshivot students (who learn for 18 months, serve in the army - usually in combat units for 18 months and then learn for another 24 months) count? If no, why not? If yes, why can't haredi yeshiva students do the same?
4. If you have enough learning going on, is there any need for an army? If no, how do we explain to the families of the roughly 20K soldiers who have fallen over the years that there was really no need for them to have been fighting in the first place?
5. Assuming that an army is always needed (to do the physical fighting while the learners learn), how can a person simply decide that he wants to be a learner (where the most danger will be the occasional papercut or eye strain headache) leaving others to be in mortal danger? Shouldn't there be a system (like in the army) where there are gibushim to determine who gets to do what? The top learners (from across the different Israeli communities) can qualify to learn.
Again, I mean no offense as I ask these questions - just trying to understand the different perspectives.
So if the amount of Torah learning that goes on during Bein Hazmanim is sufficient for protection, why do we need full time Kollel throughout the year? Certainly you agree that the learning during Bein Hazmanim is a fraction of what it normally is?
"Go into any Bais Medrash during Bein Hazmanim and you will see plenty of people learning, albeit less people and not the yeshiva hours."
Indeed. And that does not only apply to chareidim. Plenty of peope who are not in kollel (about whom you claim are often machaleli shabbos) fill the beis hamedrach all day.
I remember a kollel chap announcing proudly 'We don't take a break Christmas/New year period like those ba'al habatim from work, we learn straight through". He looked most abashed when I pointed out to him that the kollel system has 4.5+3+3=10.5 week paid vacation every year, plus erev shevous, erev RH and erev YK, genrally ta'anesim 0.5 days each totalling another 3-6 days off, plus as and when wife has a baby/children need the doctor, an unspecified and unqueried amount of time off as and when needed.
Nobody else gets that amount of laxity. Nobody has explained to me why they need the full chodesh nissan off learning. Or the week after sukkos.
It goes like this (yeshivish sing-song): If Chazal (and Tanach) were right that Torah really protects, how come yeshivos go on Bein Hazmanim? After all, the army never goes on vacation? Clearly Torah doesn't protect, and Chazal were again wrong. QED.
Where does he write that? In fact, he writes what you claim he doesn't write;
"Mimah nafshach. If the charedim really do believe that their Torah provides spatially and temporally concentrated protection, then the schedule of the yeshivah system shows that they are deserting their duties and causing deaths. And if they don’t really believe that (which in my view is likely the case), then they should stop using that as an excuse not to enlist in the IDF. It’s as simple as that."
You even can't quote correctly before you critique.
I mean in no way to be offensive as I ask these questions. I am merely curious how exactly Limmud HaTorah works vis-a-vis protection. Can someone answer these questions:
1. How many talmidim and avreichem need to be learning at any one time in order for the protection to work? In 1948 - Ben Gurion allowed 400 pturim amounting to roughly ~0.5% of the population. Now there are at least ~150-180K Haredi avreichim and talmidim learning full time (1.7-2%) - is the % increase important to the protection?
2. Do they have to be full time "learners"? The same way some yeshiva students will eventually go out to work (and stop learning full time), couldn't talmidim learn for 3 years and then go to the army while a new crop of younger talmidim will take their place?
3. With that in mind, do Dati Leumi hesder yeshivot students (who learn for 18 months, serve in the army - usually in combat units for 18 months and then learn for another 24 months) count? If no, why not? If yes, why can't haredi yeshiva students do the same?
4. If you have enough learning going on, is there any need for an army? If no, how do we explain to the families of the roughly 20K soldiers who have fallen over the years that there was really no need for them to have been fighting in the first place?
5. Assuming that an army is always needed (to do the physical fighting while the learners learn), how can a person simply decide that he wants to be a learner (where the most danger will be the occasional papercut or eye strain headache) leaving others to be in mortal danger? Shouldn't there be a system (like in the army) where there are gibushim to determine who gets to do what? The top learners (from across the different Israeli communities) can qualify to learn.
Again, I mean no offense as I ask these questions - just trying to understand the different perspectives.
powered by admail
So if the amount of Torah learning that goes on during Bein Hazmanim is sufficient for protection, why do we need full time Kollel throughout the year? Certainly you agree that the learning during Bein Hazmanim is a fraction of what it normally is?
Well said HGL.
But Slifkin started off with the quote from Rav Edilstien that the reason for attacks is less torah learning. What is the answer to that?
"Go into any Bais Medrash during Bein Hazmanim and you will see plenty of people learning, albeit less people and not the yeshiva hours."
Indeed. And that does not only apply to chareidim. Plenty of peope who are not in kollel (about whom you claim are often machaleli shabbos) fill the beis hamedrach all day.
I remember a kollel chap announcing proudly 'We don't take a break Christmas/New year period like those ba'al habatim from work, we learn straight through". He looked most abashed when I pointed out to him that the kollel system has 4.5+3+3=10.5 week paid vacation every year, plus erev shevous, erev RH and erev YK, genrally ta'anesim 0.5 days each totalling another 3-6 days off, plus as and when wife has a baby/children need the doctor, an unspecified and unqueried amount of time off as and when needed.
Nobody else gets that amount of laxity. Nobody has explained to me why they need the full chodesh nissan off learning. Or the week after sukkos.
It goes like this (yeshivish sing-song): If Chazal (and Tanach) were right that Torah really protects, how come yeshivos go on Bein Hazmanim? After all, the army never goes on vacation? Clearly Torah doesn't protect, and Chazal were again wrong. QED.
Where does he write that? In fact, he writes what you claim he doesn't write;
"Mimah nafshach. If the charedim really do believe that their Torah provides spatially and temporally concentrated protection, then the schedule of the yeshivah system shows that they are deserting their duties and causing deaths. And if they don’t really believe that (which in my view is likely the case), then they should stop using that as an excuse not to enlist in the IDF. It’s as simple as that."
You even can't quote correctly before you critique.
QED.
Considering that Natan went to Midrash Shmuel, I am sure he knows what Yeshivos do Bein Hazmanim.