On a more serious note: the difference is obvious. The identity of the messiah doesn't have that much bearing on everyday life. Science, however, has created and discovered things beyond out wildest imaginations. We owe many aspects of our lives to scientific discoveries, and to those who have survived thanks to modern medicine, their very lives themselves. Thus when science has seemingly very different conclusions that contradict our Torah, a respectable and well thought out answer is necessary, and dismissing the problem just exacerbates it.
1. Whether we should convert to Christianity or not has a major bearing on our life. They have way more answers to the Messiah question than we do.
2. to treat science as some monolith. Science is a zillion different fields and methods. If I was being as inexact as you are, I could just as well say that Christians have built a huge element of modern civilization, so now we have to take Christianity very seriously.
As to point 2: Jews did take it very seriously as the large amount of anti-Christian writings attest.
Again, science is not a monolith, and you are on the way to answering the question. But thats the start of an answer, not dismissing it out of hand. (FWIW, the scientific method is what is the common denominator across science, so if one is choosing to ignore it, one either better have a good darn reason to, or a good explanation why the scientific method was not actually applied correctly.
It is likewise a mistake to think the "scientific method" is a monolith. It is a zillion different things based on the situation. It just makes no sense to say that since I trust clinical trials from vaccines, I also have to agree with some of the dumb arguments for evolution. What shaichus?
I do take questions seriously. But it's very important to know that you don't die from questions. VERY important. Judaism simply does NOT have all the answers. Fact. Slifkin's "solutions" are worse than nothing. I happen to find the Messiah question more disturbing than questions from science.
Yes. The only thing medical science was wrong about was shutting down our minyan factories during COVID and dangerous covid vaccines. Pah, what do those scientists know. Apikorsim the lot of them.
On the other hand, when it comes to nasty disease, infertility and all else, we excel in numerous askinus to get the ill the best doctors, the best hospitals etc etc.
Consistency has never really been a chareidi trait.
No, medical science is wrong about other things too. The reproducibility crisis affects it no less than any other discipline. Only retards like you make it only about Covid. It was only just last year that foundational research on all current Alzheimer's drug development was shown to be fraudulent. Not just wrong. Faked. There is much more.
But chareidim selectively focus on what they are correct about. COVID spreads in minyan factories. Pah, apikorsishe scientists. The latest not quite proven infertility or cancer drug? Numerous chareidi askonim will work behind the scenes with their contacts to get you some. The COVID vaccine? Rabbis advise to avoid.
As I wrote, consistency is not found amongst chareidim.
Which Charedim, Test? Where I used to live, there were Chasidish (of many sects), Sephardi, Russian, and Litvish, and were not a single unified block.
I don't know what you're talking about regarding Covid. My son's yeshiva had everyone get the shots. My son was the sole exception, because I asked the Rosh Yeshiva to potur my son, which he did.
It's always a "but" with you. And it's always wrong. It's pathetic, but sadly amusing at the same time.
I am one man. I don't speak for Charedim. I do speak on behalf of them.
Occasionally, an answer is needed. I think the disagreement is in the focus. In the Chareidi world, we reserve our health skepticism for the Sages of the Nations. In the modox world, the skepticism is on Chazal. Also, at a certain point, one has to stop answering questions and focus on intaking the truth of our torah. Questions are infinite, as falsehood has an infinite amount of configurations. There is only one truth.
Also, from a sociological standpoint your premise that "dismissing the problem just exacerbates it" is observably false. The modox world which took on the method of "know what to ask on the believer" (a play on Da Ma L'Hashiv, for those keeping score) has a dismal record of maintaining the faith and observance of their constituents. The Yeshivesh/Chareidi approach, while certainly has its flaws, can take many a victory lap when it comes to avoiding problems of emuna. I assume the Modox theory was that we can avoid problems in Emuna if we change the parameters of Emuna to mean believe in anything the secular world tells you is true. But, alas, by any measure of Frumkeit, the modox world is struggling heavily.
Some "Chareidim" are actually quite happy to discuss this, and arrived at the exact same conclusion as the christians. Maybe visit your local chabad house and do a write up about them too.
One more thing: this is by no means the first anti slifkin blog. There was once zoo shoteh, which was disgusting and has since gone offline, though the full text still survives on the internet, and later slifkin-opinions dot blogspot by Rabbi Simcha Koffer, and Slifkin Challenge by Rabbi Dovid Kuhnreich.
Oh, I know those very well except the first. I have learned much by studying them. But this is not an anti-Slifkin blog, it is Irrationalist Modoxism. Slifkin just happens to be a very rich Modox target. IYH we will be expanding our target zone (RT already posted something about Marc Shapiro)
This stuck out for me “Now on top of all that Slifkin comes and tells us that the entire body of Talmudic literature we have in our hands can be wrong. Everything can be a mistake. Everything! Not just science, but any Halachah derived by our sages could be an error. The only reason we have to follow Chazal, he says, is in the interest of having a unified method of practicing Judaism, even though we could be completely in error. So when you put on Tefillin in the morning, it may be the wrong Tefillin. It may not even be Tefillin! But you have to go through the motions anyway, because at least this way we are all making the same mistake together. How great is achdus!”
I always maintained that the biggest with Slifkin was his “Canonization” theory, which clearly resembles the ideas of Reform/Conservative/Reconstructionist Judaism. Lately in his blog, Slifkin rarely mentions it and when he does it’s only when he is pressed into a corner to reconcile why we practice something based on “outdated” science. (BTW- the entire idea is self-defeating for Slifkin because if Canonization applies to Halacha, it should equally apply to Hashkofah and the entire Rationalist school should have been Canonized out of existence long ago.) R JD Bleich called him out for this in his Tradition article about the fish worms, to which Slifkin responded by attacking him as a kook who believes in spontaneous generation but never addressed the glaring problem that Canonization runs counter to Orthodox Judaism.
I always wondered why this wasn’t a more central part of the ban, since it seems to me to be the most problematic of Slifkins theories and straight out kefira. I thought perhaps it was not developed in the 3 books under the original ban (which I have not read) – only in a later edition of Sacred Monsters, which was not around at the time of the ban – but I see from the above blog that this idea was definitely known and probably explicit in his other books, so again, I’m not sure why it wasn’t focused on.
I don't think he is 100% wrong on that. There is definitely an element of "canonization" in halacha. But to claim that in general, Chazal had no way of determining the halacha in countless cases that are based on מציאות, and we are forced to simply follow all their mistakes, is an extremely repugnant idea to any Torah Jew (But I have no problem saying that they didn't know science as well as we do, but that nevertheless their halachic deteminations were "close enough" to the metzius such that they are correct. Maybe I will write a post on this topic).
I guess that depends on what "close enough" means. If you mean, for example, Chazal's understanding of spontaneous generation is close enough since that is what is perceived by the naked eye - then ok. But if you mean (what I think Slifkin means) that even if they were mistaken we still follow it because otherwise Judaism will fall apart - then I don't see a difference between a big or small mistake.
HGL said once he suspected Natan sockpuppeted at RJ. I would not be surprised if he did, and that this behavior goes way back. He embraces deception, right down to his "prank" posts written as absolutely authoritative.
Love it!!
On a more serious note: the difference is obvious. The identity of the messiah doesn't have that much bearing on everyday life. Science, however, has created and discovered things beyond out wildest imaginations. We owe many aspects of our lives to scientific discoveries, and to those who have survived thanks to modern medicine, their very lives themselves. Thus when science has seemingly very different conclusions that contradict our Torah, a respectable and well thought out answer is necessary, and dismissing the problem just exacerbates it.
This is a mistake, for 2 reasons
1. Whether we should convert to Christianity or not has a major bearing on our life. They have way more answers to the Messiah question than we do.
2. to treat science as some monolith. Science is a zillion different fields and methods. If I was being as inexact as you are, I could just as well say that Christians have built a huge element of modern civilization, so now we have to take Christianity very seriously.
As to point 2: Jews did take it very seriously as the large amount of anti-Christian writings attest.
Again, science is not a monolith, and you are on the way to answering the question. But thats the start of an answer, not dismissing it out of hand. (FWIW, the scientific method is what is the common denominator across science, so if one is choosing to ignore it, one either better have a good darn reason to, or a good explanation why the scientific method was not actually applied correctly.
It is likewise a mistake to think the "scientific method" is a monolith. It is a zillion different things based on the situation. It just makes no sense to say that since I trust clinical trials from vaccines, I also have to agree with some of the dumb arguments for evolution. What shaichus?
I do take questions seriously. But it's very important to know that you don't die from questions. VERY important. Judaism simply does NOT have all the answers. Fact. Slifkin's "solutions" are worse than nothing. I happen to find the Messiah question more disturbing than questions from science.
The scientific method is not a zillion different things. It is a six step process which is common to all branches of science.
You mean this?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Scientific_Method.svg
Yeah, these steps are vague enough to encompass almost anything. Me writing comments on Irrationalist Modoxism can be these steps, lol.
Not really.
It doesn't even matter what it is. It doesn't take into account the human element, which always trumps it.
It does and it doesnt.
Yes. The only thing medical science was wrong about was shutting down our minyan factories during COVID and dangerous covid vaccines. Pah, what do those scientists know. Apikorsim the lot of them.
On the other hand, when it comes to nasty disease, infertility and all else, we excel in numerous askinus to get the ill the best doctors, the best hospitals etc etc.
Consistency has never really been a chareidi trait.
No, medical science is wrong about other things too. The reproducibility crisis affects it no less than any other discipline. Only retards like you make it only about Covid. It was only just last year that foundational research on all current Alzheimer's drug development was shown to be fraudulent. Not just wrong. Faked. There is much more.
But chareidim selectively focus on what they are correct about. COVID spreads in minyan factories. Pah, apikorsishe scientists. The latest not quite proven infertility or cancer drug? Numerous chareidi askonim will work behind the scenes with their contacts to get you some. The COVID vaccine? Rabbis advise to avoid.
As I wrote, consistency is not found amongst chareidim.
Which Charedim, Test? Where I used to live, there were Chasidish (of many sects), Sephardi, Russian, and Litvish, and were not a single unified block.
I don't know what you're talking about regarding Covid. My son's yeshiva had everyone get the shots. My son was the sole exception, because I asked the Rosh Yeshiva to potur my son, which he did.
It's always a "but" with you. And it's always wrong. It's pathetic, but sadly amusing at the same time.
I am one man. I don't speak for Charedim. I do speak on behalf of them.
Occasionally, an answer is needed. I think the disagreement is in the focus. In the Chareidi world, we reserve our health skepticism for the Sages of the Nations. In the modox world, the skepticism is on Chazal. Also, at a certain point, one has to stop answering questions and focus on intaking the truth of our torah. Questions are infinite, as falsehood has an infinite amount of configurations. There is only one truth.
Also, from a sociological standpoint your premise that "dismissing the problem just exacerbates it" is observably false. The modox world which took on the method of "know what to ask on the believer" (a play on Da Ma L'Hashiv, for those keeping score) has a dismal record of maintaining the faith and observance of their constituents. The Yeshivesh/Chareidi approach, while certainly has its flaws, can take many a victory lap when it comes to avoiding problems of emuna. I assume the Modox theory was that we can avoid problems in Emuna if we change the parameters of Emuna to mean believe in anything the secular world tells you is true. But, alas, by any measure of Frumkeit, the modox world is struggling heavily.
Rationalism.
Natan to Christians: You're wrong but I like your spunk.
Natan to Charedim: Your spunk is irrational, therefore it doesn't exist.
Some "Chareidim" are actually quite happy to discuss this, and arrived at the exact same conclusion as the christians. Maybe visit your local chabad house and do a write up about them too.
Mentioned Chabad briefly!
One more thing: this is by no means the first anti slifkin blog. There was once zoo shoteh, which was disgusting and has since gone offline, though the full text still survives on the internet, and later slifkin-opinions dot blogspot by Rabbi Simcha Koffer, and Slifkin Challenge by Rabbi Dovid Kuhnreich.
Oh, I know those very well except the first. I have learned much by studying them. But this is not an anti-Slifkin blog, it is Irrationalist Modoxism. Slifkin just happens to be a very rich Modox target. IYH we will be expanding our target zone (RT already posted something about Marc Shapiro)
The zooshoteh blog posts can be found here: its the very long comment. The original is long gone. You can see how viciously R Slifkin was attacked by his opponents. It may make you understand him in a different light. http://myslifkinblog.blogspot.com/2005/12/r-carmells-article-on-slifkin.html
Thanks. Good stuff but not really my style. Maybe we can copy that as a future post here. For when we get tired.
This stuck out for me “Now on top of all that Slifkin comes and tells us that the entire body of Talmudic literature we have in our hands can be wrong. Everything can be a mistake. Everything! Not just science, but any Halachah derived by our sages could be an error. The only reason we have to follow Chazal, he says, is in the interest of having a unified method of practicing Judaism, even though we could be completely in error. So when you put on Tefillin in the morning, it may be the wrong Tefillin. It may not even be Tefillin! But you have to go through the motions anyway, because at least this way we are all making the same mistake together. How great is achdus!”
I always maintained that the biggest with Slifkin was his “Canonization” theory, which clearly resembles the ideas of Reform/Conservative/Reconstructionist Judaism. Lately in his blog, Slifkin rarely mentions it and when he does it’s only when he is pressed into a corner to reconcile why we practice something based on “outdated” science. (BTW- the entire idea is self-defeating for Slifkin because if Canonization applies to Halacha, it should equally apply to Hashkofah and the entire Rationalist school should have been Canonized out of existence long ago.) R JD Bleich called him out for this in his Tradition article about the fish worms, to which Slifkin responded by attacking him as a kook who believes in spontaneous generation but never addressed the glaring problem that Canonization runs counter to Orthodox Judaism.
I always wondered why this wasn’t a more central part of the ban, since it seems to me to be the most problematic of Slifkins theories and straight out kefira. I thought perhaps it was not developed in the 3 books under the original ban (which I have not read) – only in a later edition of Sacred Monsters, which was not around at the time of the ban – but I see from the above blog that this idea was definitely known and probably explicit in his other books, so again, I’m not sure why it wasn’t focused on.
I don't think he is 100% wrong on that. There is definitely an element of "canonization" in halacha. But to claim that in general, Chazal had no way of determining the halacha in countless cases that are based on מציאות, and we are forced to simply follow all their mistakes, is an extremely repugnant idea to any Torah Jew (But I have no problem saying that they didn't know science as well as we do, but that nevertheless their halachic deteminations were "close enough" to the metzius such that they are correct. Maybe I will write a post on this topic).
I guess that depends on what "close enough" means. If you mean, for example, Chazal's understanding of spontaneous generation is close enough since that is what is perceived by the naked eye - then ok. But if you mean (what I think Slifkin means) that even if they were mistaken we still follow it because otherwise Judaism will fall apart - then I don't see a difference between a big or small mistake.
I didn't like how he attacked R Shmuel Kaminetzky.
Good point. I don't like that either. Or the attacks on R' Sholom.
I was taken aback at first too, but later on it made sense.
Thank you. This was a useful link. It fills in many blanks. Interesting to see there were suspicions of him sockpuppeting even then.
Pretty sure the sockpuppeting wasn't him, but his brother, Gideon, defending him (against Natans will, I may add).
HGL said once he suspected Natan sockpuppeted at RJ. I would not be surprised if he did, and that this behavior goes way back. He embraces deception, right down to his "prank" posts written as absolutely authoritative.
Not the first but by far the best!
Too funny!!
lol HGL you're too funny
This was hilarious. Happy Adar!