It is true that the haredim don't ascribe religious significance to the state. My question is why they don't seem to care about changing the religious character of the state itself. Every truly religious Jew understands that the keeping of the Torah is what allows us to succeed in battle. This is a given. Why then, don't haredim work harder to change the character of the army, as religious zionosts have been doing for so long? We all agree we need an army, why not make it a Torah army. I'm writing a piece on this very topic at the moment.
The religious Zionist perspective imagines that we are living in Biblical times, and try to square our approach with Biblical features of war and Davidic monarchies.
We Haredim believe that we are still in Galus, albeit that the physical barriers to ruchniyus are much less imposing in Eretz Yisrael than in the Diaspora. No, we don't know what G-d has in mind; and we are not sure regarding the status and purpose of the State - maybe things will work out, and maybe not. Hence, we determine our behavior in the way that Jews have always made these descisions; we look at what is best to preserve the Torah, and are not moved by the (irrational) messianic assumptions and dreams of the religious Zionist. The calls for 'milchmet mitzva', as if we are living that dream, totally misundertands our status - still a lamb surrounded by seventy wolves.
My recollection is thatwe are taught to look to Yaakov Avinu's preparation for his upcoming encounter with esav as a paradigm for interactions with our enemies. Bsorot tovot
Both sides have it all wrong: the question shouldn't be whether everyone should be drafted or not, rather the question is whether the government has any legitimacy AT ALL. Conscription is based on the idea that YOUR BODY is someone else's PROPERTY. Conscription is slavery. Anyone who can't graft that is a nitwit. No government has any legitimate AUTHORITY to conscript ANYONE. If the army was run על פי הלכה, there'd be no need for a draft anyway because wars would be over in minutes.
And to those who say that Moshe’s army were צדיקים
I agree . We should send all חילונים home and draft the צדיקים of Mir, Brisk and Ponovitz. Your question whether this is a מלחמת מצוה should not be asked of גדולים it should be asked to the Imams of Hamas!
So cutting through the waffle, and trying to understand what the analysis of Zionism has to do with anything, is he saying 'benei torah' don't fight because they don’t believe the state is worth dying for?
If so, what happened to the people in that state? Such as the family members of the said 'benei torah'. Are they not worth trying to save? What about the Roshei Yeshivos? Is it acceptable that others risk their lives to save them but the 'benei torah' do not need to help?
"A legitimate argument has been made that losing one's faith is included in the prohibition of avoda zara"
Source please, and what exactly ('the geder' in Yeshivish) does 'losing one's faith mean'? And how does the army cause a 'loss of faith' according to that definition?
Not only was this not written by a RZ soldier, it was also not written by a cheredi. An essay like this would take many hours to write, days in fact, and many more hours editing and correcting. Probably AI.
The most powerful response I have ever heard on this issue is at the link below (in hebrew with English subtitles) by Rav Tamir Granot, The Rav addresses both the Haredi world on the right, as well as liberal secularists on his left. R. Granot is Rosh Yeshivat Orot Shaul, a Hesder Yeshiva in Tel Aviv.
Phrases like (from an earlier post) "....that would be a kitrug upon ...." are not typical of somebody in the Israeli army. The blend of English and Hebrew is more, shall we say, yeshivish.
It is true that the haredim don't ascribe religious significance to the state. My question is why they don't seem to care about changing the religious character of the state itself. Every truly religious Jew understands that the keeping of the Torah is what allows us to succeed in battle. This is a given. Why then, don't haredim work harder to change the character of the army, as religious zionosts have been doing for so long? We all agree we need an army, why not make it a Torah army. I'm writing a piece on this very topic at the moment.
Do we see any halachik sources which limit מלחמת מצווה to a frum state? If yerovams kingdom got attacked that would not be מחייב?
The religious Zionist perspective imagines that we are living in Biblical times, and try to square our approach with Biblical features of war and Davidic monarchies.
We Haredim believe that we are still in Galus, albeit that the physical barriers to ruchniyus are much less imposing in Eretz Yisrael than in the Diaspora. No, we don't know what G-d has in mind; and we are not sure regarding the status and purpose of the State - maybe things will work out, and maybe not. Hence, we determine our behavior in the way that Jews have always made these descisions; we look at what is best to preserve the Torah, and are not moved by the (irrational) messianic assumptions and dreams of the religious Zionist. The calls for 'milchmet mitzva', as if we are living that dream, totally misundertands our status - still a lamb surrounded by seventy wolves.
My recollection is thatwe are taught to look to Yaakov Avinu's preparation for his upcoming encounter with esav as a paradigm for interactions with our enemies. Bsorot tovot
Both sides have it all wrong: the question shouldn't be whether everyone should be drafted or not, rather the question is whether the government has any legitimacy AT ALL. Conscription is based on the idea that YOUR BODY is someone else's PROPERTY. Conscription is slavery. Anyone who can't graft that is a nitwit. No government has any legitimate AUTHORITY to conscript ANYONE. If the army was run על פי הלכה, there'd be no need for a draft anyway because wars would be over in minutes.
האחיכם יבאו למלחמה ואתם תשבו פה?
👆that is what Moshe asked …
And to those who say that Moshe’s army were צדיקים
I agree . We should send all חילונים home and draft the צדיקים of Mir, Brisk and Ponovitz. Your question whether this is a מלחמת מצוה should not be asked of גדולים it should be asked to the Imams of Hamas!
So cutting through the waffle, and trying to understand what the analysis of Zionism has to do with anything, is he saying 'benei torah' don't fight because they don’t believe the state is worth dying for?
If so, what happened to the people in that state? Such as the family members of the said 'benei torah'. Are they not worth trying to save? What about the Roshei Yeshivos? Is it acceptable that others risk their lives to save them but the 'benei torah' do not need to help?
This article is full of straw men arguments.
"A legitimate argument has been made that losing one's faith is included in the prohibition of avoda zara"
Source please, and what exactly ('the geder' in Yeshivish) does 'losing one's faith mean'? And how does the army cause a 'loss of faith' according to that definition?
Not only was this not written by a RZ soldier, it was also not written by a cheredi. An essay like this would take many hours to write, days in fact, and many more hours editing and correcting. Probably AI.
The most powerful response I have ever heard on this issue is at the link below (in hebrew with English subtitles) by Rav Tamir Granot, The Rav addresses both the Haredi world on the right, as well as liberal secularists on his left. R. Granot is Rosh Yeshivat Orot Shaul, a Hesder Yeshiva in Tel Aviv.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPZSlHp-re8
A transcript of the talk appears at TraditionOnline.org in an adapted translation.
Nothing further needs be said.
Phrases like (from an earlier post) "....that would be a kitrug upon ...." are not typical of somebody in the Israeli army. The blend of English and Hebrew is more, shall we say, yeshivish.
Just sayin'