It is true that the haredim don't ascribe religious significance to the state. My question is why they don't seem to care about changing the religious character of the state itself. Every truly religious Jew understands that the keeping of the Torah is what allows us to succeed in battle. This is a given. Why then, don't haredim work harder to change the character of the army, as religious zionosts have been doing for so long? We all agree we need an army, why not make it a Torah army. I'm writing a piece on this very topic at the moment.
Haredim are wary that trying to 'change the character of the army' by joining forces with the secular establishment will lead instead to the secular establishment changing the nature of Haredim - just as has occurred to the Religious Zionist community, precisely as R Sonnenfeld warned Rav Kook.
I think it's obvious from the Rambam that מלחמת מצווה or any דין of מלחמה is something that only applies to a king. It is a halachic category. That doesn't mean that there isn't a מצוה and a חיוב to defend fellow Jews. You don't need the halachic category of מלחמת מצוה to have such a חיוב.
There are many different opinions on how to apply דיני מלך nowadays. But does the Rambam say this specifically? Rav shilat quoted that its מי שהעם יוצא איתו but that may be the רמב"ן. Regarding מלחמת רשות we do need a sanhedrin but i dont think he mentions a מלך by מלחמת מצווה.
The religious Zionist perspective imagines that we are living in Biblical times, and try to square our approach with Biblical features of war and Davidic monarchies.
We Haredim believe that we are still in Galus, albeit that the physical barriers to ruchniyus are much less imposing in Eretz Yisrael than in the Diaspora. No, we don't know what G-d has in mind; and we are not sure regarding the status and purpose of the State - maybe things will work out, and maybe not. Hence, we determine our behavior in the way that Jews have always made these descisions; we look at what is best to preserve the Torah, and are not moved by the (irrational) messianic assumptions and dreams of the religious Zionist. The calls for 'milchmet mitzva', as if we are living that dream, totally misundertands our status - still a lamb surrounded by seventy wolves.
Other than a few religious Zionist messianic dreamers who dabble in Kabbala, the overwhelming majority of Torah leaders have been warning for years that we can lose it all, Chalila. The Torah teaches that Israel is given to us only conditionally. We have no promise otherwise.
Even according to the RZ Rabanim who didnt belive that the geula we have is assured to continue (rav rabinovitch, rav lichtenstein etc), we still believe we need to do everything we can to merit it.
"A legitimate argument has been made that losing one's faith is included in the prohibition of avoda zara"
Source please, and what exactly ('the geder' in Yeshivish) does 'losing one's faith mean'? And how does the army cause a 'loss of faith' according to that definition?
The most powerful response I have ever heard on this issue is at the link below (in hebrew with English subtitles) by Rav Tamir Granot, The Rav addresses both the Haredi world on the right, as well as liberal secularists on his left. R. Granot is Rosh Yeshivat Orot Shaul, a Hesder Yeshiva in Tel Aviv.
Rabbi Granot accepts as a given that the State of Israel has religious significance, and that any separatism is axiomatically wrong. This is his opinion, but highly unproven.
He also accepts as a given that army service is an obligation on all, something that is Halachically unproven.
The idea that 'nothing further needs be said' is arrogance to the extreme. People far smarter than him disagree. He may, or may not, be entitled to an opinion. But the idea that all must shut their mouths in the face of his opinion is misguided entitlement.
I'm sure the pro-draft people have nothing further to say than appeals to emotion, but the chareidim have heard all these arguments before, ad nauseam, for decades. With all due respect to Rav Granot and his son HYD who was killed al Kiddush Hashem, it seems he has nothing further to add- other than a heartbreaking appeal to emotion. But if all our life decisions were dictated by heartbreaking emotional videos, God help us.
If you want a more logical source based shiur, rav shilats letter and drasha are very cold and non emotional (he wouldnt even know how to be emotional from one who knows him..)
What is chasdidus, a major part of chareidisism, if not emotion? There is nothing halachik about batteling away a Friday night watching a rebbe eat tzimmes, I can tell you that. Why can they use emotion to justify what they hold and do, but the modox can't?
So what is the difference between a heartbreaking emotional video and the combined emotional strength and depth of feeling of thousands of chassidim watching their rebbe eat tzimmes, whilst being mavetal torah?
Why is the former 'God help us' and the latter acceptable?
Huh? I just said that all our life decisions shouldn't be dictated by emotional videos. Refraining from IDF service is a very important decision that the chareidi community has made for important reasons, and therefore I wouldn't expect an emotional video to change that. I don't think Chassidims' or Zionists' life decisions are generally dictated by emotional videos.
My recollection is thatwe are taught to look to Yaakov Avinu's preparation for his upcoming encounter with esav as a paradigm for interactions with our enemies. Bsorot tovot
And to those who say that Moshe’s army were צדיקים
I agree . We should send all חילונים home and draft the צדיקים of Mir, Brisk and Ponovitz. Your question whether this is a מלחמת מצוה should not be asked of גדולים it should be asked to the Imams of Hamas!
He is not a posek for 98% of the Frum world … ask any Chasid, sfardie or Dati Leumi! No one heard of him 5 years ago! So it’s only when kibbutzim are surrounded by Rapists and murderers that we should defend ourselves ? How about if they surround Bnei Brak I wonder what he would have said then ! I wonder
So cutting through the waffle, and trying to understand what the analysis of Zionism has to do with anything, is he saying 'benei torah' don't fight because they don’t believe the state is worth dying for?
If so, what happened to the people in that state? Such as the family members of the said 'benei torah'. Are they not worth trying to save? What about the Roshei Yeshivos? Is it acceptable that others risk their lives to save them but the 'benei torah' do not need to help?
Not only was this not written by a RZ soldier, it was also not written by a cheredi. An essay like this would take many hours to write, days in fact, and many more hours editing and correcting. Probably AI.
You are very bad at recognizing AI if you think this is AI. And you are quite unfamiliar with anything relating to the military if you think that soldiers (more accurately a reserve soldier) never have time to write anything ever. It probably did take him many hours to write.
Phrases like (from an earlier post) "....that would be a kitrug upon ...." are not typical of somebody in the Israeli army. The blend of English and Hebrew is more, shall we say, yeshivish.
No real chareidi would fight in the Israeli army, in the position it was claimed he is in. He would have be a drop out, and no drop out could write like that. Best not to dig to deep......
Black kipa? Hilarious way to package somebody. With a rim or without? What size? And most importantly, with a clip or without? Or maybe the most significant factor is what material it is made out of? What if its a large knitted black kippah? More permutations than a kesem shailah, right?
Years ago, when I was in the army, I knew a few soldiers who thought like him (they could not write this article, because they didn't know English, but I can easily see an Anglo-Charedi in the army writing this)
It is true that the haredim don't ascribe religious significance to the state. My question is why they don't seem to care about changing the religious character of the state itself. Every truly religious Jew understands that the keeping of the Torah is what allows us to succeed in battle. This is a given. Why then, don't haredim work harder to change the character of the army, as religious zionosts have been doing for so long? We all agree we need an army, why not make it a Torah army. I'm writing a piece on this very topic at the moment.
It's a good question on a difficult topic. I look forward to seeing your piece.
Haredim are wary that trying to 'change the character of the army' by joining forces with the secular establishment will lead instead to the secular establishment changing the nature of Haredim - just as has occurred to the Religious Zionist community, precisely as R Sonnenfeld warned Rav Kook.
How should Charedim "work harder"? There is no changing the army, because the army's primary mission is not to defend the nation.
How have the DL changed that mission or its character?
Do we see any halachik sources which limit מלחמת מצווה to a frum state? If yerovams kingdom got attacked that would not be מחייב?
I think it's obvious from the Rambam that מלחמת מצווה or any דין of מלחמה is something that only applies to a king. It is a halachic category. That doesn't mean that there isn't a מצוה and a חיוב to defend fellow Jews. You don't need the halachic category of מלחמת מצוה to have such a חיוב.
There are many different opinions on how to apply דיני מלך nowadays. But does the Rambam say this specifically? Rav shilat quoted that its מי שהעם יוצא איתו but that may be the רמב"ן. Regarding מלחמת רשות we do need a sanhedrin but i dont think he mentions a מלך by מלחמת מצווה.
I agree there could be different opinions on the matter. I am just coming from the לשון of the Rambam.
From the word מלכים? Or inside?
The entire context of the halacha of מלחמת מצוה
אֵין הַמֶּלֶךְ נִלְחָם תְּחִלָּה אֶלָּא מִלְחֶמֶת מִצְוָה. וְאֵי זוֹ הִיא מִלְחֶמֶת מִצְוָה זוֹ מִלְחֶמֶת שִׁבְעָה עֲמָמִים. וּמִלְחֶמֶת עֲמָלֵק. וְעֶזְרַת יִשְׂרָאֵל מִיַּד צָר שֶׁבָּא עֲלֵיהֶם. וְאַחַר כָּךְ נִלְחָם בְּמִלְחֶמֶת הָרְשׁוּת וְהִיא הַמִּלְחָמָה שֶׁנִּלְחָם עִם שְׁאָר הָעַמִּים כְּדֵי לְהַרְחִיב גְּבוּל יִשְׂרָאֵל וּלְהַרְבּוֹת בִּגְדֻלָּתוֹ וְשִׁמְעוֹ:
Also, it is כמעט מפורש in the end of the introduction to Sefer Hamitzvos.
וידוע שהמלחמה וכבישת עיירות לא יהיו אלא במלך ובעצת סנהדרי גדולה וכהן גדול כמה שנאמר ולפני אלעזר הכהן יעמוד,
Youre saying he means all wars?
The religious Zionist perspective imagines that we are living in Biblical times, and try to square our approach with Biblical features of war and Davidic monarchies.
We Haredim believe that we are still in Galus, albeit that the physical barriers to ruchniyus are much less imposing in Eretz Yisrael than in the Diaspora. No, we don't know what G-d has in mind; and we are not sure regarding the status and purpose of the State - maybe things will work out, and maybe not. Hence, we determine our behavior in the way that Jews have always made these descisions; we look at what is best to preserve the Torah, and are not moved by the (irrational) messianic assumptions and dreams of the religious Zionist. The calls for 'milchmet mitzva', as if we are living that dream, totally misundertands our status - still a lamb surrounded by seventy wolves.
You speak from a place of ignorance. It is very clear that the state of Israel is the beginning of the redemption.
How do you know?
Other than a few religious Zionist messianic dreamers who dabble in Kabbala, the overwhelming majority of Torah leaders have been warning for years that we can lose it all, Chalila. The Torah teaches that Israel is given to us only conditionally. We have no promise otherwise.
Dabble in? You dont have to agree with his opinions but rav kook was a tremendous talmid chacham. He didnt just dabble.
Even according to the RZ Rabanim who didnt belive that the geula we have is assured to continue (rav rabinovitch, rav lichtenstein etc), we still believe we need to do everything we can to merit it.
"A legitimate argument has been made that losing one's faith is included in the prohibition of avoda zara"
Source please, and what exactly ('the geder' in Yeshivish) does 'losing one's faith mean'? And how does the army cause a 'loss of faith' according to that definition?
The most powerful response I have ever heard on this issue is at the link below (in hebrew with English subtitles) by Rav Tamir Granot, The Rav addresses both the Haredi world on the right, as well as liberal secularists on his left. R. Granot is Rosh Yeshivat Orot Shaul, a Hesder Yeshiva in Tel Aviv.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPZSlHp-re8
A transcript of the talk appears at TraditionOnline.org in an adapted translation.
Nothing further needs be said.
Rabbi Granot accepts as a given that the State of Israel has religious significance, and that any separatism is axiomatically wrong. This is his opinion, but highly unproven.
He also accepts as a given that army service is an obligation on all, something that is Halachically unproven.
The idea that 'nothing further needs be said' is arrogance to the extreme. People far smarter than him disagree. He may, or may not, be entitled to an opinion. But the idea that all must shut their mouths in the face of his opinion is misguided entitlement.
I'm sure the pro-draft people have nothing further to say than appeals to emotion, but the chareidim have heard all these arguments before, ad nauseam, for decades. With all due respect to Rav Granot and his son HYD who was killed al Kiddush Hashem, it seems he has nothing further to add- other than a heartbreaking appeal to emotion. But if all our life decisions were dictated by heartbreaking emotional videos, God help us.
If you want a more logical source based shiur, rav shilats letter and drasha are very cold and non emotional (he wouldnt even know how to be emotional from one who knows him..)
What is chasdidus, a major part of chareidisism, if not emotion? There is nothing halachik about batteling away a Friday night watching a rebbe eat tzimmes, I can tell you that. Why can they use emotion to justify what they hold and do, but the modox can't?
I never said emotion is not good or important.
So what is the difference between a heartbreaking emotional video and the combined emotional strength and depth of feeling of thousands of chassidim watching their rebbe eat tzimmes, whilst being mavetal torah?
Why is the former 'God help us' and the latter acceptable?
Huh? I just said that all our life decisions shouldn't be dictated by emotional videos. Refraining from IDF service is a very important decision that the chareidi community has made for important reasons, and therefore I wouldn't expect an emotional video to change that. I don't think Chassidims' or Zionists' life decisions are generally dictated by emotional videos.
R. Granot is very into חסידות. It's not something unique about this issue.
My recollection is thatwe are taught to look to Yaakov Avinu's preparation for his upcoming encounter with esav as a paradigm for interactions with our enemies. Bsorot tovot
האחיכם יבאו למלחמה ואתם תשבו פה?
👆that is what Moshe asked …
And to those who say that Moshe’s army were צדיקים
I agree . We should send all חילונים home and draft the צדיקים of Mir, Brisk and Ponovitz. Your question whether this is a מלחמת מצוה should not be asked of גדולים it should be asked to the Imams of Hamas!
מלחמת מצוה זה לא פתגם
👆that is what Rav Dov Lando responded...
He is not a posek for 98% of the Frum world … ask any Chasid, sfardie or Dati Leumi! No one heard of him 5 years ago! So it’s only when kibbutzim are surrounded by Rapists and murderers that we should defend ourselves ? How about if they surround Bnei Brak I wonder what he would have said then ! I wonder
Honest answer.
So cutting through the waffle, and trying to understand what the analysis of Zionism has to do with anything, is he saying 'benei torah' don't fight because they don’t believe the state is worth dying for?
If so, what happened to the people in that state? Such as the family members of the said 'benei torah'. Are they not worth trying to save? What about the Roshei Yeshivos? Is it acceptable that others risk their lives to save them but the 'benei torah' do not need to help?
This article is full of straw men arguments.
He dealt with this.
Not only was this not written by a RZ soldier, it was also not written by a cheredi. An essay like this would take many hours to write, days in fact, and many more hours editing and correcting. Probably AI.
You are very bad at recognizing AI if you think this is AI. And you are quite unfamiliar with anything relating to the military if you think that soldiers (more accurately a reserve soldier) never have time to write anything ever. It probably did take him many hours to write.
His comment actually reminds me of the shoddy "reasoning" of Biblical Criticism.
So you say.
I've seen wonderful מערכות תורניות written by combat reserve soldiers
Phrases like (from an earlier post) "....that would be a kitrug upon ...." are not typical of somebody in the Israeli army. The blend of English and Hebrew is more, shall we say, yeshivish.
Just sayin'
Western educated religious Jews don't fit into your one-size-fits-all box, Testes.
Very suspicious, right? I can't imagine how anybody in the Israeli army could possibly write something like that. Thank you for your service.
Ye hes obviously charedi. So?
The narrative from earlier posts is that he is not chareidi, that's supposed to be the whole chiddush!
Hes just a charedi who fights in the army and sees both sides and appreciates the need for an army as well as kollelim
No real chareidi would fight in the Israeli army, in the position it was claimed he is in. He would have be a drop out, and no drop out could write like that. Best not to dig to deep......
Hes probably a KBY guy with a black kipa or something. Why does it matter? He identifies with the charedi position.
Black kipa? Hilarious way to package somebody. With a rim or without? What size? And most importantly, with a clip or without? Or maybe the most significant factor is what material it is made out of? What if its a large knitted black kippah? More permutations than a kesem shailah, right?
What do you reckon?
Years ago, when I was in the army, I knew a few soldiers who thought like him (they could not write this article, because they didn't know English, but I can easily see an Anglo-Charedi in the army writing this)
Who says the wars would be over in minutes?
Ah, i thought you meant miraculously.