I would say it's not just a question of klalei hora'ah, but a disregard for the whole concept of hora'ah in the first place. One of the many things Natan is kofer in is the concept of a mesorah, as you can see explicitly in many of his posts. A mesorah is part of what we mean when we talk about "knowing how to learn". It's how we avoid coming to conclusions like this:
That Lashon Hara is not really a prohibition and is only mussar:
Now obviously, there are many mesorahs of how to learn. Just like there are many ways for a judge to decide a case, and many different schools of thought when it comes to how to understand, say, the Constitution. But just like when it comes to appointing a judge, we want somebody who went to law school, who had many years of experience in the practice of law, and we are not satisfied with any idiot off the street who thinks he can "analyze a text", the same is with learning Torah.
I was just trying to bring a real solid mekor that this attitude of his and of Fozziebear's to disregard earlier authorities and assume we know better is totally out of line of Orthodox Jewry, from a source no less than the Shulchan Aruch itself. He has insinuated in the past that he sympathizes with this approach, but when he endorsed that comment I was totally floored at how really reformist he is and how open he is about it.
Who decides 'the mesorah' and how? Lakewood? Gateshead? Who gave them any rights to decide the mesorah? Where are hilchos mesorah codified? Is the Maharal part of the mesorah? He says Vashti never grew a tail. Flatly contradicting the talmud. What about Reb Shimshon Refoel Hersch? The Ibn Ezra? Rabbeinu Efrayim? He says Binyomin was a werewolf. R Crespas? I think he was banned, but then again he was part of the Ran"s rebbe-talmid chain. The Rambam? He was banned too.
What about chassidism? Is there mesorah valid? Why? Who decides? Why is there mesorah to ignore zemanei tefillah better than the mizrachi mesorah not to have the harchokoh of mesirah miyad l'yad. After all the latter is from Rashi's personal chumrah. Rashi hoyo nizhar. Not more than that.
Who decides how to interpret the Constitution? Harvard? Columbia? Georgetown? Judges on the Supreme Court? On the Circuit court? A county judge? An ambulance-chasing lawyer? A high-school history teacher?
Why can't any redneck in a trailer decide how to interpret the law with his pocket copy of the Constitution he obtained by calling in to the Rush Limbaugh show?
Part of knowing how to learn is understanding that there is in fact a mesorah, and that not every Tom, Dick and Harry is worthy of expressing their opinion. Based on your not-very-clever questions, I would imagine your learning disability is part of the reason you went OTD. You are another casualty of the nonoptimal yeshivish system that imagines everybody can be taught to learn.
I wouldn't have as much of a problem with MO if, like chassidim, they showed some value for the Torah and Mitzvos. You were probably not aware that chassidim were considered like MO and worse at a certain point in our history. But they shaped up. MO's problems go much deeper than women not covering their hair, as I explained to you. They are secularist through and through, and care not a whit about Torah and Mitzvos. There a few communities that DO care, like Rabbi Tau's, and I don't have more of a problem with them than chassidim.
Classic yeshivish response. Instead of dealing with my point properly, bring a moshol from secular US law, and then we can spend the whole of seider debating a) the moshol and b) whether it is a good 'dimyon'.
Been there, done that.
PS Chassidim show some value for a very small subset of mitzos. Things generally to do with showing off. Nice esrogim, beautiful esrog boxes, nice atoroh on a tallis. They don't show the same value when it comes to treating their workers nicely, kiddush hashem, money matters, zemanie tefillah, and your favourite talmud torah, etc etc. The Squarer Rebbe eats off silver cutlery whilst many of his chassidom wallow in poverty and his gabbe burns other peoples houses down. Great value for torah and mitzvos on show.
Yeah, you didn't make a point. You just asked a bunch of really stupid questions.
You missed my point about chassidim vs. MO. Chassidim value the Torah and Mitzvos, so even if they slip up, they are still good Jews. You won't find chassidim writing academic papers about why it is actually ok to screw over your workers. Try to find chassidishe poskim permitting (lechatchila) davening after the Zman. See the wonderful scholars here (which include many chassidim) searching in vain for a heter:
Why do you think his questions were so stupid? He is pointing out that it's hard to define what is a proper mesorah and what not, since nobody has agreed on anything ever. Who gets to define what is mesorah?
The Talmud Bavli was accepted by the jews, so you can't argue with it, as the Rambam explains. You can make a similar statement about shulchan aruch as well.
But I don't think the questions he raised are stupid.
It's not stupid per se to ask how the Mesorah is defined (and it cannot be defined with exactness). The way he asked it was arrogant, contemptuous, stupid, and in bad faith, thinking stupidly that his collection of klutz kashes "prove" there is no such thing as Mesorah.
The idea that there are gray areas shouldn't be difficult to understand for anybody above the age of three. One can ask such questions about anything -How do you define "nice"? How do you define "clever"? How do you define "city", who gets to decide that? Etc etc etc. But just like I know that there is such a thing as "nice", "clever", and "city", despite the vast gray areas, so too I know that there is such a thing as the Mesorah, a vital part of Torah sheBa'al Peh. And somebody who is kofer in that is...well, a kofer. Slifkin and his MO friends are explicitly kofer in that whole idea, using similar foolish "arguments" as Test.
Nice spinning, but chassidim don't 'slip up'. It's all deliberate.
All of a sudden its "chassidim poskim". Somebody famous once said 'on the rebbes (back then, not now) I have no kashyos, and on the talmiddim I have no tirutzim.
First of all, it is not deliberate, and you are insane.
Secondly, with the MO, it is not possible to "spin" to put them in a more favorable light. Secularism, ie, lack of dedication to Torah and Mitzvos, is the main feature of MO ideology. Their leaders and intellectuals are constantly trying to justify anti-Torah practices and perspectives. Most of them believe in Biblical Criticism. So there is no comparison to chassidim at all.
I took it as a casually-worded insult that was truthful enough. It is kind of astonishing that he could not only deny it as such, but then turn around and make a long-winded response justifying his belief that you don't even know what "know how to learn" even means.
You can't really understand him until you understand what a gamma is. That, as it happens, isn't *just* an insult. It's a label for a personality type that really exists, with identifiable behaviors that give it highly accurate predictive power.
For one thing, they are highly passive-aggressive. Consider how I was banned. I know other bloggers who ban trolls and the like. When they ban, they address the subject, not the audience. "Shimshon, you are hereby banned." And usually they give a specific reason. Natan addressed the audience, and then lied about what I said.
When I finally pinned him down in the post where he pawned off whether to ban you guys via a poll, I asked him whether I was still banned. It was predictable as night follows day that he would not respond to my query. It was a mistake for him to ban me. Were I to make the same comment on this platform, he would not have done so. But he, like a true gamma, cannot admit to a mistake, and won't even acknowledge it. He won't even commit to his previous decision to ban me. Just leaves the question hanging.
Chareidim, in particular the largest subset, chassidim have little regard for any klallei hapesak. The whole of chassidim is modern, a substantial change from what went before. In everything from nusach hetefillah onwards. But because they look heimish, its ok.
Your quote from a specific halochoh in CM is of course irrelevant to the general topic.
I would say it's not just a question of klalei hora'ah, but a disregard for the whole concept of hora'ah in the first place. One of the many things Natan is kofer in is the concept of a mesorah, as you can see explicitly in many of his posts. A mesorah is part of what we mean when we talk about "knowing how to learn". It's how we avoid coming to conclusions like this:
That Lashon Hara is not really a prohibition and is only mussar:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/738lsg4d35waxtf/From%20Principles%20to%20Rules%20and%20from%20Musar%20to%20Halakhah%20-%20Benjamin%20Brown.pdf
Or that homosexuality is not really a prohibition:
https://rationalistmedicalhalacha.blogspot.com/2021/04/does-torah-actually-prohibit-all.html
Now obviously, there are many mesorahs of how to learn. Just like there are many ways for a judge to decide a case, and many different schools of thought when it comes to how to understand, say, the Constitution. But just like when it comes to appointing a judge, we want somebody who went to law school, who had many years of experience in the practice of law, and we are not satisfied with any idiot off the street who thinks he can "analyze a text", the same is with learning Torah.
When I went through Browns ludicrous article, the reaction was "Mr. Brown can moo, can you?" Nuts.
Well said!
I was just trying to bring a real solid mekor that this attitude of his and of Fozziebear's to disregard earlier authorities and assume we know better is totally out of line of Orthodox Jewry, from a source no less than the Shulchan Aruch itself. He has insinuated in the past that he sympathizes with this approach, but when he endorsed that comment I was totally floored at how really reformist he is and how open he is about it.
Who decides 'the mesorah' and how? Lakewood? Gateshead? Who gave them any rights to decide the mesorah? Where are hilchos mesorah codified? Is the Maharal part of the mesorah? He says Vashti never grew a tail. Flatly contradicting the talmud. What about Reb Shimshon Refoel Hersch? The Ibn Ezra? Rabbeinu Efrayim? He says Binyomin was a werewolf. R Crespas? I think he was banned, but then again he was part of the Ran"s rebbe-talmid chain. The Rambam? He was banned too.
What about chassidism? Is there mesorah valid? Why? Who decides? Why is there mesorah to ignore zemanei tefillah better than the mizrachi mesorah not to have the harchokoh of mesirah miyad l'yad. After all the latter is from Rashi's personal chumrah. Rashi hoyo nizhar. Not more than that.
Who decides how to interpret the Constitution? Harvard? Columbia? Georgetown? Judges on the Supreme Court? On the Circuit court? A county judge? An ambulance-chasing lawyer? A high-school history teacher?
Why can't any redneck in a trailer decide how to interpret the law with his pocket copy of the Constitution he obtained by calling in to the Rush Limbaugh show?
Part of knowing how to learn is understanding that there is in fact a mesorah, and that not every Tom, Dick and Harry is worthy of expressing their opinion. Based on your not-very-clever questions, I would imagine your learning disability is part of the reason you went OTD. You are another casualty of the nonoptimal yeshivish system that imagines everybody can be taught to learn.
I wouldn't have as much of a problem with MO if, like chassidim, they showed some value for the Torah and Mitzvos. You were probably not aware that chassidim were considered like MO and worse at a certain point in our history. But they shaped up. MO's problems go much deeper than women not covering their hair, as I explained to you. They are secularist through and through, and care not a whit about Torah and Mitzvos. There a few communities that DO care, like Rabbi Tau's, and I don't have more of a problem with them than chassidim.
Classic yeshivish response. Instead of dealing with my point properly, bring a moshol from secular US law, and then we can spend the whole of seider debating a) the moshol and b) whether it is a good 'dimyon'.
Been there, done that.
PS Chassidim show some value for a very small subset of mitzos. Things generally to do with showing off. Nice esrogim, beautiful esrog boxes, nice atoroh on a tallis. They don't show the same value when it comes to treating their workers nicely, kiddush hashem, money matters, zemanie tefillah, and your favourite talmud torah, etc etc. The Squarer Rebbe eats off silver cutlery whilst many of his chassidom wallow in poverty and his gabbe burns other peoples houses down. Great value for torah and mitzvos on show.
Yeah, you didn't make a point. You just asked a bunch of really stupid questions.
You missed my point about chassidim vs. MO. Chassidim value the Torah and Mitzvos, so even if they slip up, they are still good Jews. You won't find chassidim writing academic papers about why it is actually ok to screw over your workers. Try to find chassidishe poskim permitting (lechatchila) davening after the Zman. See the wonderful scholars here (which include many chassidim) searching in vain for a heter:
https://forum.otzar.org/viewtopic.php?t=41000
הַצַּדִּיקִים שׁוֹגִים בָּזֶה, בַּמֶּה שֶׁמְּאַחֲרִים זְמַן תְּפִלָּה (חיי מוהר"ן תפ"ז)
Why do you think his questions were so stupid? He is pointing out that it's hard to define what is a proper mesorah and what not, since nobody has agreed on anything ever. Who gets to define what is mesorah?
The Talmud Bavli was accepted by the jews, so you can't argue with it, as the Rambam explains. You can make a similar statement about shulchan aruch as well.
But I don't think the questions he raised are stupid.
It's not stupid per se to ask how the Mesorah is defined (and it cannot be defined with exactness). The way he asked it was arrogant, contemptuous, stupid, and in bad faith, thinking stupidly that his collection of klutz kashes "prove" there is no such thing as Mesorah.
The idea that there are gray areas shouldn't be difficult to understand for anybody above the age of three. One can ask such questions about anything -How do you define "nice"? How do you define "clever"? How do you define "city", who gets to decide that? Etc etc etc. But just like I know that there is such a thing as "nice", "clever", and "city", despite the vast gray areas, so too I know that there is such a thing as the Mesorah, a vital part of Torah sheBa'al Peh. And somebody who is kofer in that is...well, a kofer. Slifkin and his MO friends are explicitly kofer in that whole idea, using similar foolish "arguments" as Test.
Nice spinning, but chassidim don't 'slip up'. It's all deliberate.
All of a sudden its "chassidim poskim". Somebody famous once said 'on the rebbes (back then, not now) I have no kashyos, and on the talmiddim I have no tirutzim.
First of all, it is not deliberate, and you are insane.
Secondly, with the MO, it is not possible to "spin" to put them in a more favorable light. Secularism, ie, lack of dedication to Torah and Mitzvos, is the main feature of MO ideology. Their leaders and intellectuals are constantly trying to justify anti-Torah practices and perspectives. Most of them believe in Biblical Criticism. So there is no comparison to chassidim at all.
And we're back to Vashti's tail.
The Maharal explains the Gemara, he does not argue with the Gemara.
And if you did not know that, you are clearly one of those who 'does not know how to learn'. Which is probably why you have so much to say.
I took it as a casually-worded insult that was truthful enough. It is kind of astonishing that he could not only deny it as such, but then turn around and make a long-winded response justifying his belief that you don't even know what "know how to learn" even means.
You can't really understand him until you understand what a gamma is. That, as it happens, isn't *just* an insult. It's a label for a personality type that really exists, with identifiable behaviors that give it highly accurate predictive power.
For one thing, they are highly passive-aggressive. Consider how I was banned. I know other bloggers who ban trolls and the like. When they ban, they address the subject, not the audience. "Shimshon, you are hereby banned." And usually they give a specific reason. Natan addressed the audience, and then lied about what I said.
When I finally pinned him down in the post where he pawned off whether to ban you guys via a poll, I asked him whether I was still banned. It was predictable as night follows day that he would not respond to my query. It was a mistake for him to ban me. Were I to make the same comment on this platform, he would not have done so. But he, like a true gamma, cannot admit to a mistake, and won't even acknowledge it. He won't even commit to his previous decision to ban me. Just leaves the question hanging.
Chareidim, in particular the largest subset, chassidim have little regard for any klallei hapesak. The whole of chassidim is modern, a substantial change from what went before. In everything from nusach hetefillah onwards. But because they look heimish, its ok.
Your quote from a specific halochoh in CM is of course irrelevant to the general topic.